Jersey Boy
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Posts posted by Jersey Boy
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On 9/1/2020 at 10:56 AM, laronius said:
Over the years I have noticed how often the scriptures speak of the resurrection leading us back into God's presence to be judged. Initially I just thought that was the order of events: resurrection then judgment. But as I paid more attention to these scriptures it sure makes it sound like resurrection is actually making it happen or at least making it possible. The reading this week in Helaman 14:15-17 makes it very clear that this is the case. Does anyone have a good explanation as to why resurrection specifically makes this possible?
Samuel’s point is clear: The infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of Christ, the ultimate act of divine love, is so powerful and complete that all men are are unconditionally redeemed from physical death by his resurrection, and all are unconditionally redeemed from spiritual death, and thereby brought back into the immediate presence of God, without any effort on their part.. The only problem is that after this “free ride” back into the immediate presence of God not all will feel comfortable and at home there, so they will retreat from the fulness of the intensity of divine light and back to a less intense realm of light where they will feel more comfortable and at home.
- JohnsonJones, Anddenex and laronius
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14 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:
Well, first off, I'm not sure why you think you could never make it to the celestial Kingdom. Have you gone and committed adultery and then committed first degree murder on that individual while knowing that the church is true and deciding that you want to destroy the church by committing this murder?
No?
Then, you can learn more about the eternal nature of the atonement and how merciful the Lord is. It is possible for repentance to come for all men that are willing.
In regards to the judgment, my thoughts are that it will be more on us and what we want to do in the afterlife as represented and shown in this life. The spirit which we have in this life (the predisposition and attitudes we carry) will be the same with us in the next. Thus, one who has no desire to really gain exaltation may have that same spirit with them in the next life.
In essence, the Lord puts down rules and laws which we follow in accordance to where we want to be and what type of people we want to be around. Those who want to live in his house, abide by his rules. However, as he loves and respects us, he is not going to force us to abide by those rules, but if we do not, then he doesn't want us to destroy his house and his rules. He still loves us though, and so he has created other places that we can go if we so desire. There will be those that don't want to follow his rules in his house, and thus will not want to live in his house under those rules.
Basically, the Celestial Kingdom will be with those living the Celestial Laws and who chose to follow the Celestial rules. This comes with some benefits that go with living in that Kingdom. If that is something you want, and you wish to live by those rules, the Celestial Kingdom can still be someplace to try to go.
Now, there will be many (as there are on this earth) that don't want to live by those rules. Instead of being the type of judge that kicks us into exile, or says...good luck with that and let's us try to do it alone, he has created a place for those who do not wish to live with him to go.
There are those that are really good people, but they just don't want to do certain things. Perhaps in the Pre-existence they had already determined they didn't want the responsibility of being a parent in eternity, or helping to raise children and be responsible for the whole headache of regulating universal laws and organizing planets and animals. They didn't want that responsibility and so chose a life here on earth where they would not choose to accept the gospel or it's ordinances.
Perhaps you had those that didn't feel the way the Lord ruled his house was the right way, or they didn't quite agree with all the thoughts of the Lord. However, they are still really good people. They worship the Lord, they do good things, and all around are really nice. They might not want to do the entire Celestial Kingdom stuff, but they want a good place to live and people who are likeminded to live around. This society still practices worship, they still believe in loving their neighbors and sharing. They still have most of the things that we would consider makes one a saint. These may be those people that live in the Terrestrial Kingdom. They are not bad people at all, in fact some of them may be the best people on Earth.
We do not know a ton about the Terrestrial Kingdom, except that it is greater and more magnificent than the Telestial on a degree of how much greater the light is from the moon from the starlight we see at night. They may have the power to call into existence whatever they want for their personal enjoyment. They may not be able to create universes or have children, but they may be able to create many things that we can only dream of here. They will have their artists and writers and others that can create new things eternally. Just like we have things here which we have to keep us entertained, or to keep us interested and learning, they will also have such things most likely.
In regards to procreation, or the ability to do such things, they will lack that power. In fact, as most of them are good and desire the things of the Lord, they will not wish to even try to be immoral or engender immorality of any sort. They will have friendships, but marriage is not something that is in that Kingdom, and as these are those that are still loyal to the Lord and desire that type of life in their own kingdom, they will not participate in those types of activities outside of marriage.
The Telestial Kingdom is something different. There are as many different manifestations of the Telestial Kingdom as there will be people in it. It differs as one star does from another. A type of example of the Telestial Kingdom would be a garden paradise, similar to the garden of Eden. All that one wants will be provided for them as they need. AS for immorality, it will not even be an option. They will not have the ability nor the means. It will simply be stripped from them to even do so. There is no such (marriage or procreative acts) thing in the Telestial Kingdom. They may still have the ability to create art and other things, even in that Kingdom, as per how they desire to do so. Just as we have the ability to entertain ourselves on this earth, so will they there.
Most of these people have different desires than that which the Lord has. They would not want to live in such a place as the Celestial or Terrestrial Kingdom. They want to enjoy the luxuries of THIS world or have natures which make them desire the things of this world over that which the lord would want. As such, they normally would rebel or be extremely unhappy if they went to a place where they were under rules and laws which constrained them. If they had the abilities of the higher Kingdoms, they would wont to abuse them, at times against the rules of the Lord in the Celestial, or against the wishes of those in the Terrestrial. This means, some of the abilities that those in higher kingdoms possess will not be granted to those in the Telestial Kingdom. Immorality will not even be a thing they can really participate in. They will not even have the function to be able to do so, or so it is speculated.
Some hypothesize that there are no women in the Telestial Kingdom at all, but I'm not sure that is true.
They will still have things beyond what we can imagine in this life. There will be peace and freedom for them. They will still be able to construct things as they wish, and such sciences as engineering and other disciplines will still exist. They won't have to worry about disease or many of the other factors we worry about in this life. They will be able to build and construct things to make their lives different if they wish to do such. If not, they will still be in a paradise where food and shelter naturally will be available.
These are those that have variant desires than that of the Lord. They don't want to live under any of those rules. In fact, to get to the Telestial Kingdom all they had or have to do is accept the Lord's atonement. This can be done at any time, in this life or the next. They simply need to bow the knee and accept the Lord's atonement so that their sins can be washed away. Some will not do this in this life, and some will take a while in hell being punished for their sins until they accept that they do not have to go through such pain and torment if they simply allow the Lord to take it upon himself instead. Then, the atonement takes hold and they have a place of paradise to live. That said, they still will have a similar spirit to what they had on this earth. If they were murderers and loved to murder, they will have a similar spirit, but the ability to murder will be gone. If they were adulterers who loved to do such, the ability to even participate in such acts no longer exists for them. However, they will still have a paradise to live in greater than anything we currently have on this planet.
These are simply thoughts I have (not really an opinion as such, and definitely not doctrine) in answer to your question. Hopefully it answers some of what you are seeking.
I still think that if you are weighed down by sin, that you can always seek repentance and that in the end, it really will be up to us and our choice of where we want to be and where we want to go in the afterlife. It is more on what WE wish and desire to do and where to go I think than many realize.
Doctrine and Covenants 76 tells us that the inheritors of the Telestial kingdom of glory will enjoy the enlightening and empowering companionship of the Holy Spirit, the third member of the Godhead, and that they will also be ministered to (taught) by angelic ministrants and by beings of greater light and knowledge from the terrestrial glory. If you are correct, how strange it is to contemplate that many of the inheritors of the Telestial glory will somehow simultaneously be “repentant“ murderers and whoremongers, who enjoy the companionship of holy ministrants, yet they will apparently skulk around wishing they could kill people and/or engage in unholy and impure sex acts. I‘m guessIng that in the Telestial kingdom the earthly rules are bent so one can simultaneously enjoy the companionship of the Holy Ghost yet remain impure and unclean.
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20 hours ago, Gomezaddams51 said:
I have a question about what happens after the resurrection and judgement. What got me thinking about it was I figure I am never going to make it to the celestial Kingdom, the way life has been going (5% good stuff and 95% bad stuff) I figure I will be lucky to make it to the terrestrial kingdom and more likely to make it to the telestial one. Anyway I have been wondering, once you are sentenced to the two lower prison kingdoms, what do you do all day? Seems like if you are stuck there for infinity, every day is going to be just like the last day and it is going to be very boring. So what is the Church "stand" on the lower kingdoms? Secondly, since we are resurrected do our bodies feel pain, like if we dropped a rock on our foot? What happens if by chance you get your arm stuck in something and it gets cut off? Does it grow back? And what happens if you throw a knife at someone and it sticks in them (I think this would be great fun)? And the final question since we have our bodies and lots of spare time, what happens if you come a cross a little cutie and go shack up? Yeah I know, no kids or spirits created that is only the Celestial Kingdom shtick but hey prisoners got to have some fun...
I am just trying to get my mind into what awaits me... I know these sound kind of dumb but as they say, Inquiring minds want to know.
According to the scriptures, you’ve already been alive and aware forever. Are you bored yet?
- Traveler, askandanswer and Anddenex
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On 3/14/2020 at 4:34 PM, askandanswer said:
Those born during the millenial reign of Christ will be born at a time when Satan is bound. It's possible to assume that with Satan being bound, and living under the reign of Christ, they might live a life without sin, and thus may not need the redemptive power of the atonement. It's also taught that this group of people will not die, but they will be changed, and thus may not need the resurrective power of the atonement. This leads to the conclusion that there may be some who do not need the atonement and will be not be a candidate for eternal burning.
Absolutely wrong. It’s amazing how the correct answers to your erroneous ideas are right there in the scriptures, in language so simple, plain and obvious that they can’t be misunderstood. But it’s apparent you don’t realize those verses are staring you right in the face. But on the positive side, I imagine it must be kind of fun to be able to come up will all sorts of nonsensical ideas without any kind of restraint, and be able to imagine that they might actually be true.
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22 hours ago, anatess2 said:
There's no difference between personage and person.
The difference between LDS and NAE is not the persons - it's how those persons are ONE GOD. This may sound like a simple difference (one in essence versus one in will) but the implications reverberates through the entire faith system as it pertains to our own essence and how we ourselves become one with God which is the ultimate meaning and purpose of mortal existence.
For some inexplicable reason, nearly all Latter-Day Saints fail to realize that in the theology of the restoration the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are indeed each filled to eternal fullness with an uncreated divine substance that God himself calls the Spirit of Truth, which is the same spiritual substance that, to a lesser degree, unifies the saints of the Church with their God and to each other. So in the theology of the restored Church of Jesus Christ there really is a shared spiritual substance that fills, to an I nfinite and eternal degree, each member of the Godhead — the self-existent Spirit of Truth that enables the three members of the Godhead to operate as one perfectly unified God. And it’s important to understand that the Latter-Day Saints testify that the Spirit of Truth is an actual material substance, howbeit a more refined and pure one.
There are two main differences between the Latter-Day Saint understanding of the Godhead and the understanding of the the Godhead by heirs of historical Christianity: 1) The Latter-Day Saints believe the personage of the Father has a perfect body of flesh and bone. Meanwhile the heirs historical Christianity believe the person of Father has has no body and is immaterial. 2) We are able to actually identify that shared spiritual substance of divine light, power and intelligence, alluded to by non-LDS Christians, that unifies the three members of the Godhead and empowers them to perfectly think, feel and act as one unified God. Contrarily, the heirs of historical Christianity assert that the nature of the mysterious substance that unifies each person in the Godhead is an unknowable, incomprehensible mystery. In other words, we know what the unifying substance actually is (the Spirit of Truth), while our non-LDS Christian friends frankly admit they don’t know and even can’t know what the unifying substance is. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has simply demystified the unity of the Godhead.
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things. (D&C 88) Please note that this verse is referring to an actual material substance...
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19 hours ago, e-eye said:
Then there is this floating around. Maybe somebody misquoted Joseph Smith.
Christ says no man knoweth the day or the hour when the Son of Man cometh (Matt 24:36). …Did Christ speak this as a general principle throughout all generations? Oh no, he spoke in the present tense. No man that was then living upon the footstool of God knew the day or the hour. But he did not say that there was no man throughout all generations that should not know the day or the hour. No for this would be in flat contradiction with other scripture for the prophet (Amos 3:7) says that God will do nothing but what he will reveal unto his Servants the prophets.Joseph Smith
Hate to burst your bubble, but I guess you’ll have now have to decide if an entry in a Church member’s notebook supersedes the word of God, spoken from his very mouth, and given as holy scripture to the Church in THIS dispensation...
6 And they have done unto the aSon of Man even as they listed; and he has taken his power on the bright hand of his cglory, and now reigneth in the heavens, and will reign till he descends on the earth to put all enemies dunder his feet, which time is nigh at hand—
7 I, the Lord God, have spoken it; but the hour and the aday no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor shall they know until he comes. (D&C 49)
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1 hour ago, omegaseamaster75 said:
I was at a leadership training this past weekend and present there was an apostle and 3 GA's, the temple president and the mission president for our area. There were about 110-120 in attendance so a somewhat small group.
They did a little Q&A which was fine and wrapped everything up with testimonies. One of the GA's got up and as part of his testimony said that he would be around for the second coming of Christ.
This GA is 56 years old and I am younger than him. I do not suppose that this was a conscious statement, but he did say it. I think it was a not well thought out statement. My experience has shown me that many take the words of our leaders and run with them as if it was the voice of God speaking to them. I take this as one mans opinion and if he has received confirmation about the his role in the 2nd coming it should not be for public consumption. Our leaders need to be careful about the things they say and how they say them.
Just an observation.
There might be a perfectly non-sensational explanation to the General Authority’s comment. I say this because most Latter-Day Saints appear to be unaware of the fact that the scriptures clearly testify all worthy individuals will “be around” at the Second Coming. Those saints who have already been resurrected, such as Peter and Moroni, will descend to the earth by the millions with the Lord. Then those who have ‘died in the Lord’ will be resurrected and ascend through the air to meet him and the previously resurrected multitude and descend to the earth with them. Finally, those who are alive on the earth and worthy of the honor will die, and then be resurrected in the ‘twinkling of an eye,’ and also ascend to meet the Lord and his gathered resurrected hosts before they all descend to the earth. So all the worthy will ‘be around” at the Second Coming.
Those living on the earth who survive the destructions attendant to the Second Coming, but who are not worthy of the privilege of ascending to the Lord and his hosts and descending with them, will be like unto the Nephites who were visited by the Savior around the time of his resurrection — more righteous than those who were destroyed but not yet fully converted.
it would be very interesting to hear what this General Authority said before and after his comment so as to be able to understand what he said in full context.
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13 hours ago, toddthor said:I understand that some of these questions cannot be answered, but I just wanted to see what everyone else's thoughts were ~
Mormon 6
11 They had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us
15 There were [many] more who did fall... yea, even all my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me
• 24 or 25 total survivors?
Doctrine and Covenants 107
52 Noah was ten years old when he was ordained under the hand of Methuselah
Moses 8
19 The Lord ordained Noah after his own order, and commanded him that he should go forth and declare his Gospel
• Why was Noah ordained twice? (In the context of Moses 8 Noah is hundreds of years old, not 10, so they are in fact different times)
3 Nephi 19
11 Nephi went down into the water and was baptized.
• Who baptized Nephi? (Jesus had already ascended up to heaven at this point)
Brigham Young:
"He [Enoch] obtained power to translate himself and his people, with the region they inhabited, their houses, gardens, fields, cattle, and all of their possessions."
Joseph Smith:
"Now the doctrine of translation is a power which belongs to this priesthood. There are many things which belong to the powers of the priesthood and the keys thereof, that have been kept hid form before the foundation of the world; they are hid from the wise and prudent to be revealed in the last times."
• Who can/will hold the keys of translation?
• How is it performed?Articles of Faith 1
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church
• Was there a Quorum of 12 AND First Presidency in the meridian of time Church? If so, who were the three people added to make it 15 total?Did Jesus receive the Holy Ghost? (Yep, this question)But, I may have an answer already of "yes"2 Nephi 3112 the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me
• Among other things, this can be interpreted to mean that God gave Christ the Holy Ghost
• If Jesus didn't receive the Holy Ghost, it might nullify the argument used for baptism in verse 5,"If the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!" If Jesus wasn't baptized by fire, we could use this same argument against confirmation (I don't know why one would, but you could)
• Matthew 4 JST1 Jesus was led up of the Spirit, into the wilderness, to be with God.• The only person that Jesus could have gotten the Holy Ghost from is God (or Moses or Elijah, but they already have a role on the Mount of Transfiguration)• If God bestowed upon Jesus this gift, it would explain why we have no record of it. (Heavenly Father would not just show Himself to people to do so).• "Jesus wouldn't need to receive the Holy Ghost since they're both members of the Godhead"Jesus also didn't need to be baptized of water as He was already perfect, but He still was baptized.Those are my thoughts, but I am open to further knowledge on this subject.Thanks for reading, have a wonderful day! 😄If you had read two chapters later in Mormon, you question about Nephite survivors would need answered...
2 And now it came to pass that after the great and tremendous battle at Cumorah, behold, the Nephites who had escaped into the country southward were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed.
3 And my father also was killed by them, and I even remain alone to write the sad tale of the destruction of my people. But behold, they are gone, and I fulfil the commandment of my father. And whether they will slay me, I know not.
4 Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not.
5 Behold, my father hath made this record and he hath written the intent thereof. And behold, I would write it also if I had room upon the plates, but I have not; and ore I have none, for I am alone. My father hath been slain in battle, and all my kinsfolk, and I have not friends nor whither to go; and how long the Lord will suffer that I may live I know not. (Mormon 😎
and...
7 And behold, the Lamanites have hunted my people, the Nephites, down from city to city and from place to place, even until they are no more; and great has been their fall; yea, great and marvelous is the destruction of my people, the Nephites. (Mormon 😎
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On 10/13/2019 at 9:07 AM, Jonah said:
I had some questions about what I read on the material posted in regards
to the General Conference (The Message, the Meaning, and the Multitude)One concluding thought: Joseph Smith’s 19th-century frontier environment was
aflame with competing crowds of Christian witnesses. But in the tumult they
created, these exuberant revivalists were, ironically, obscuring the very
Savior young Joseph so earnestly sought. Battling what he called 'darkness
and confusion,' he retreated to the solitude of a grove of trees where he
saw and heard a more glorious witness of the Savior’s centrality to the
gospel than anything we have mentioned here this morning. With a gift of
sight unimagined and unanticipated, Joseph beheld in vision his Heavenly
Father, the great God of the universe, and Jesus Christ, His perfect Only
Begotten Son. Then the Father set the example we have been applauding this
morning: He pointed to Jesus, saying: "This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!"
No greater expression of Jesus's divine identity, His primacy in the plan
of salvation, and His standing in the eyes of God could ever exceed that
short seven-word declaration.How were they obscuring the Savior?
Regarding the term 'begotten', what is the difference in how Jesus was
one of many spirit children begotten of Heavenly Mother and Father and the
reference to Jesus being the only begotten of the Father (through an
earthly woman instead of a heavenly one)? Was he begotten both inside and
outside a marriage covenant between husband and wife?Jonah/Rachel
It appears you missed the core point of the message and somehow got sidetracked into focusing on tangential issues. The basic point being made is that rather than enlightening young Joseph’s mind to help him to come to a deeper understanding of and appreciation for the Savior, the zealous preaching of those contending ministers filled his mind with darkness and confusion. By contrast, an actual theophanic vision of the Father and the Son, a dramatic and extremely powerful form of personal revelation, instantaneously dispelled all of the darkness and confusion that had previously afflicted Joseph by filling his mind with certainty and a flood of revelatory light. It’s like the prophet Joseph Smith once said, “a man can learn more by gazing into heaven for five minutes than he ever could by spending a lifetime reading books on the subject.” The bottom line? Personal revelation is a far superior way to learn about the things of God than listening to the preaching of ministers who wrongly assert apostles, prophets are no longer needed in the Church and that the canon of scripture is permanently filled.
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4 hours ago, dprh said:
Thinking about @theplainsother question about the ability to choose in the pre-earth life, I can understand some confusion about being both the state of innocence and having the ability to choose. Was Lucifer in a "state of innocence" when he rebelled against Heavenly Father's plan? What about the spirits that followed him? Maybe we could figure out the difference between "state of innocence" and "innocent". Is there one? I think we (the 2/3rds) were innocent because we weren't guilty of rebellion. But to me, "state of innocence" implies a lack of agency. Which could be the absence of choices, or the the absence of consequences of choices, or the absence of knowledge/understanding regarding the choices made. In the pre-mortal life, I imagine that after the rebellion, we kind of ran out of choices, the last choice was to receive a physical body. That was our "state of innocence". In the Garden, Adam & Eve had choices, options, but they lacked the knowledge/understanding regarding those choices, being in a "state of innocence." Same term, but different meanings.
The state of innocence of Adam and Eve in the garden is directly analogous to, if not exactly like, the innocence of children prior to arriving at the age of accountability. Bright children who are nearly 8 years of age already possess a fair amount of accumulated knowledge and wisdom, but not nearly enough to be held to the same degree of accountability as full-grown adults whose brains are fully formed and who have long since passed beyond the time of sexual awakening at puberty.
All males and females on this earth experience an innocent “garden of Eden phase” that lasts from birth to the age of accountability. But when the first knowing transgression is committed after entering the age of accountability they fall from their childhood Eden and enter the lone and dreary world where they will be punished for their own sins. Any insightful Latter-Day Saint who’s paid keen attention during the temple endowment will understand what I’m saying.
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3 hours ago, theplains said:
Did spirits have agency (the ability to choose between good and evil) in that pre-earth state?
Thanks,
JimWhen one considers what occurred in the war in heaven, it becomes perfectly obvious that the spirits who dwelt in heaven at the foundation of the world had the ability and, just as importantly, the opportunity to choose between good and evil. Without the ability to choose between good and evil we would have to be either totally enslaved or mindless automatons.
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On 10/6/2019 at 12:05 PM, theplains said:
The 1997 version of Gospel Principles says,
Our heavenly parents provided us with a celestial home more glorious and beautiful than
any place on earth. We were happy there. Yet they knew we could not progress beyond a
certain point unless we left them for a time.Since we could not progress further in heaven, our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council
to present his plan for our progressionThe 2009 version has only the later part:
Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left Him
for a time.What do you believe allowed them to progress to a certain point in their celestial home which
was missing from their time before the Fall in the Garden of Eden?Thanks,
JimWhen we were premortal spirits, we lived in the immediate presence of God. After an indeterminate period of time of learning and growing spiritually while in the immediate presence of our heavenly parents, we came to a point in our progression when it became necessary to leave heaven so we could learn to believe in and trust in God while separated from his glorious presence In addition, it was further deemed needful that we should enter a fallen state in which our spirits could be clothed with mortal bodies that would cause us to experience a great trial of faith to learn how to overcome the lusts of the flesh through our faith in Christ. The fallen nature was designed in wisdom to be a time of trial to determine whether or not we would continue to believe In God and obey his will while outside of his immediate presence and in conditions of extreme spiritual adversity.
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On 9/19/2019 at 1:21 PM, theplains said:
2 Nephi 2:26 says, "And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the
children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have
become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted
upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the
commandments which God hath given".What is the punishment of the law at the great and last day for those redeemed from the fall?
Thanks,
JimThe particular aspect of Christ’s redemption that the prophet Lehi speaks of in the verse you quoted is the redemption from the state of total spiritual death and abandonment that would have existed in the post-fall world if there had been no infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of Christ. Lehi’s prophet son Jacob very graphically describes the horrific state of existence fallen man would have been subjected to if the atoning Lamb of God had not been slain from the foundation of the world...
8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness. (2 Nephi 9)But both Jacob and Lehi testify that because of the merciful redemptive sacrifice of Christ the effects of the fall are partially mitigated and man is not totally cut off from the presence and uplifting influence of God, for it’s by virtue of Christ’s holy offering that a portion of his light “lighteth every man who cometh into the world.” This portion of divine light given to every human being enables them to have at least a basic understanding of the differences between good and evil, and because of that basic understanding of the difference between good and evil they are made moral agents who have the freedom to choose the path that leads to life and light or the path that leads to death and darkness.
Finally, the punishment of the law at the great and last day is when God casts into spiritual outer darkness those who used their God given freedom to follow the the path that leads to death and darkness but, tragically, utterly refused to gratefully come unto Christ in faith and sincerely repent until it is everlastingly too late.
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9 hours ago, GaleG said:
Sorry to intrude.
I read the first chapter of 1 Nephi but don't see your reference to a 'next time'. Can you be
more specific?I see that the church mentions in the notes section of 3 Nephi 1 that Jerusalem was
destroyed immediately after Lehi left Jerusalem; possibly using 2 Nephi 25:10 as a
supporting scripture. Also taught in the church manual in chapter 12, page 92.Do you believe instead that this destruction was not immediately after Lehi departed but
rather some time after Jeremiah was imprisoned (after the tenth year of Zedekiah's reign;
Jeremiah 32)?Thank you,
Gale
The words “next time” were my words. When Lehi prophesied that the city of Jerusalem was about to be destroyed, the citizens of that city were painfully well aware of the fact that it had recently been attacked and pillaged by the Babylonians. So Lehi didn’t have to use the precise words “next time” because if Jerusalem was going to be attached a second time, that means it would be just as correct to say it’s going to be destroyed the next time the Babylonians attack. In other words, in this instance the expressions ‘next time” and “second time” mean the same thing.
As to your second point, the Book of Mormon says that Lehi was well aware of the imprisonment of Jeremiah, an event that took place toward the end of Zedekiah’s reign. So that means Jerusalem was destroyed less than a year after Lehi’s departure. In historical terms,, a span of less than a year of time seems to fit well with the the expression immediately.
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4 hours ago, theplains said:
From 2 Kings 23, I see that Jehoiakim reigned for 11 years and then his son Jehoiachin became king.
He reigned in Jerusalem for 3 months (2 Kings 24:8) and then Nebuchadnezzar came and besieged
the city of Jerusalem, took away many captive to Babylon, and plundered the house of the Lord (verses
13 and 14, before Zedekiah was made king). Lehi was supposedly still in Jerusalem (as the Babylonians
had already come to conquer Jerusalem in the reign of Jehoiachin).If you had approached this subject with a more open and enquiring mind, instead of immediately jumping at the chance to find fault in order to invalidate the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon, you may have caught the mistakes you made in the above post before you hit ‘Submit Reply.’
If you had bothered to read Lehi’s prophetic warning in the first chapter of the Book of Mormon, you may have realized he didn’t prophesy that Jerusalem was going to, once again, be attacked and pillaged, but his warning was that the next time the Babylonians attacked the city of Jerusalem and the holy temple were going to be “DESTROYED.” The following excerpt is from the Wikipedia article on the subject:
“Despite warnings by Jeremiah and others of the pro-Babylonian party, Zedekiah revolted against Babylon and entered into an alliance with Pharaoh Hophra . Nebuchadnezzar returned, defeated the Egyptians, and again besieged Jerusalem, resulting in the city's destruction in 587 BCE.”
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On 9/6/2019 at 7:43 AM, mikbone said:
Is it ok to believe that the Fall of Adam or that the Book of Mormon narratives are just stories that God has revealed or should we perceive these accounts as actual events that occurred to real people? And does it matter?
This incongruous idea of a Book of Mormon that presents itself in a most solemn and unmistakable manner as a true history of a real people, and most solemnly attested to be a real history in no less than the sacred name of Jesus Christ, is a perfect example of how Satan can carefully and cunningly lead the Church of God Into a state apostasy. It’s all so diabolically clever because it’s a strategy to seed the Church with unbelieving but still participating members of record who, if they are not open and transparent about the state of their unbelief (at very least with their bishops), could end up masquerading as testimony bearing members of the Church. This, in turn, could create a detrimental atmosphere of dishonesty and deception that would no doubt hinder a fuller presence of the Spirit of truth and light.
Even worse, if such unbelievers developed a proselyting spirit that seeks to gain “converts” to their way of thinking. they may be numbered among those ravening wolves in sheep’s clothing so often warned of in the scriptures. Such people might also serve in the role of “sleeper agents” who could significantly undermine the the Church at a time of crisis when the testimonies of the saints need to be strengthened.
I can almost imagine the Adversary and his generals gathered for a strategy session as one of them speaks up and says, “I’ve got a better idea... Instead of destroying the testimonies of the Latter-Day Saints so that they leave Church and harass it from without, better yet, let’s destroy their testimonies and find a way to keep them in the Church where they’ll be in a much better positions to do significant harm.”
On the flip side, I do acknowledge that for the more sincere and humble among the “Book of Mormon as fantasy” crowd, it may be better for them to remain in the Church where there’s a better chance to regain their weakened testimonies.
- Just_A_Guy, Anddenex and mikbone
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On 7/5/2011 at 1:33 PM, Shoot_The_Moon said:
"For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies."
- D&C 84:33
Faithful priesthood holders are “sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies” (D&C 84:33). To be sanctified is to be made clean through the power of the Holy Ghost and then to have its operative power giving guidance for life’s activities. Such influence has a positive effect upon the body. Renew is defined as something that restores to a good state, rebuilds, repairs, confirms, revives, makes fresh and vigorous, transforms, implants holy affections, etc.[7] It is not necessarily that the body is visibly transformed (though this could be the case at times), but the positive effects of the Spirit support and invigorate physical and mental well-being. In connection with the oath and covenant of the priesthood, the renewal of the body refers to an eternal effect as well as a mortal one. Ultimately, the one who is faithful to the oath and covenant will have the body renewed in celestial glory in the Resurrection (see D&C 88:28–29).
- S. Brent Farley, "The Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood (D&C 84)" in Sperry Symposium Classics: The Doctrine and Covenants, BYU
“Motherhood may be exercised as universally and vicariously as Priesthood”
- Elder John A. Widtsoe
“The place of woman in the Church is to walk beside the man, not in front of him nor behind him. In the Church there is full equality between man and woman."
"Within those great assurances, however, our roles and assignments differ. These are eternal differences—with women being given many tremendous responsibilities of motherhood and sisterhood and men being given the tremendous responsibilities of fatherhood and the priesthood"
- President Spencer W. Kimball
And motherhood, like priesthood, is a divine call to serve and to nurture others.
- Elder Robert J. Whetten
(There are many other references that show the similarities between the Priesthood for men and Motherhood for women - even for those without children of their own).
With all the similarities between the Priesthood and Motherhood, and since God is "no respecter of persons", does the promise of having one's body "renewed" by fulfilling the duties apply equally as well to women who fulfill the duties of Motherhood?
The answer is no. Women are doomed to have to deal with cellulite, crows feet and stretch marks until the day of regeneration..
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3 hours ago, Anddenex said:
Thanks for the thoughts Jersey Boy. Here are thoughts with your response you would have to consider:
1) Adam is the ancient of days, and is understood to have lived the longest although biblical record shows Methuselah lived 969 years. If Methuselah lived 969 years, and Adam is the ancient of days who lived the longest we can already see the biblical record doesn't provide Adam's accurate age. You are following record of Adam living 930 years and Enoch died in 987. The chances are that Adam lived closer to a 1000 years and lived longer than Methuselah. By this record, let's say that Adam lived 970 and then died. That only allows Enoch 17 years, not 57.
In this case, your thought stems from an inaccurate recording (an error) of translation for your proposal.
2) We agree the number of years is irrelevant, as a person could have lived 1 year as the "head" and still be the head.
3) I am more in agreement with @JohnsonJones that Christ is the head of the Meridian of Time. According to the Church, Jesus Christ is the dispensation head of the Meridian of Time. This account also confirms Enoch as a dispensation head.
I simply am pointing out that @mordorbund makes a valid point regarding two dispensation heads living at the same time, if I understood him correctly with what he was saying.
I have always believed Christ is the head of the Meridian Dispensation. Why I got sidetracked tonight into suggesting that Peter is its head of that Dispensation is beyond me. Perhaps it’s because I usually think of Archangels as being the heads of the dispensations, not God.
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5 hours ago, Anddenex said:
@mordorbund - doesn't appear to be arguing that Enoch was part of a dispensation (similar to the Jaredites dispensation). What he is pointing out is that in previous cases the "head" of the dispensation had already passed on and was not living when a new "head" of a dispensation was called.
He is inquiring about Adam being still alive (who is the head) while Enoch is living. Can Enoch be a "head" when Adam (the current head) is alive? Thus, it is more likely Noah is the second head dispensation.
mordorbund can correct me if I misunderstood him.
After investigating some of the genealogical information recorded in the scriptures, it appears that after the death of Adam, Enoch spent 57 years on earth as the Lord’s presiding high priest and prophet prior to being translated and taken to heaven. If one considers the fact that the prophet Joseph Smith had served a mere 14 years as the Lord’s presiding high priest and prophet when he died, yet he now serves as the head of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times, it seems to me that serving 57 years as the Lord’s presiding high priest and prophet is more than enough time for Enoch to be designated the head of a dispensation. Peter is the head of Dispensation of the Meridian of Time, and he spent about 35 years as the presiding high priest, 22 years less than Enoch did.
The only way mordorbund could be considered correct in his assertion is if Adam outlived Enoch, but he didn’t. Enoch lived in mortality about 57 years beyond the death of Adam. .
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On 8/2/2019 at 10:03 PM, Serviteur du seigneur said:
Well, when i was a boy i used to sleep in my parents bedroom, just in front of the bathroom door, and i remember very well that i would see every night standing in there a kind of a witch, i mean, she looked like one.
She had a strong green light surrounding herself, a dark dress, her eyes were completely green, and her skin was gray and old, just like a old woman, not to mention the black hat on top of the head.
The bathroom's door was very close to my bed, so she was like inches away from me, really very close.
That experience was so scaring that even know 13 years later i cant sleep very well at night when the lights are off.
Besides this striking part, i would also often hear voices calling me and noises of things breaking in the house, but when i went to take a look to see if anything was actually broken, everything was ok.
The very real sounding voices, the seemingly real sounds of things breaking, and the very real appearing figure of a greenish witch (none of which actually are real) are all manifestations consistent with a temporary bout of childhood schizophrenia, a psychological malady that some children simply outgrow.
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14 hours ago, dschets15 said:
Hey Board Members!
I'm new to the board as of today, both discovery and joining. I was excited to find a popular forum that seems to have a lot of good topics discussed regularly. As someone who has many questions, but not a lot of answers I am grateful for many resources that help me, along with the spirit, to find answers.
As I was studying the topical guide, specifically "Jesus Christ---Lamb of God" today I was struck by how most of the references come from 1 Nephi 13 and 14 which is Nephi's vision. I was curious to see what your guys/gals thoughts were on why that is the case. In the Bible Christ is referenced as the Lamb of God quite a bit, but in the Book of Mormon it seems like mostly in Nephi. Any thoughts? Also any thoughts on that title of the Savior and why it is important?
Look forward to hearing your responses! Thanks!
During the years Lehi and his entourage wandered in the wilderness of the Middle East, before their arrival in the American promised land, the Book of Mormon tells us they often built alters unto the Lord and thereon regularly offered sacrifices and burnt offerings unto God in the similitude of the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of the Son of God. The powerful image of innocent lambs often being slain by blood sacrifice in accordance with the Law of Moses, which law the Lehites were obliged to obey, undoubtedly made a deep and powerful impression upon Nephi’s soul, heart and mind, and so the angel was simply drawing on powerful symbolic imagery of the atonement of Christ with which Nephi was already very well aquainted.
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Just now, The Folk Prophet said:
Humility.
When one is dealing with obvious facts, and not with purely speculative opinions, there’s no need to pretend he might be wrong for the sake of sparing delicate feelings. Read it.
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1 hour ago, Vort said:
I happen to agree with this, and also agree that it is implicit in Section 138. But this doctrine goes beyond what our prophets have taught, and thus must be regarded as speculative.
I guess you missed the portion of Section 138 that makes the teaching perfectly clear. If the leaders aren’t teaching the doctrine, ithey’re doing so without reference to the content of Section 138, not because of it. I encourage you to go back and reread 138 because the pertinent portions on the subject are perfectly and unambiguously clear.
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20 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:
You presume we haven't?
Only if you reject the truthfulness and doctrinal validity of what I stated in my previous post because you didn’t fully comprehend the meaning of Section 138 when you previously read it. So if you disagree with what I wrote in my previous post, go back and carefully reread it and see if you still disagree with my analysis after you’re finished.
The second coming is in March
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
Far too many pre Second Coming prophesies are yet to be fulfilled for the Second Coming to happen in five months. Any knowledgeable Latter-Day Saint would know these ideas are untrue.