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  1. Like
    DennisTate got a reaction from raven2 in The church doesn't discipline or excommunicate anyone any more.   
    Well..... I certainly am in an interesting situation at the moment I must admit......
    I am facing not being able to return to work on December 1, 2021 but I was given the option to take
    the Janssen vaccination which is tempting I must admit due to graphene oxide NOT being on the list of ingredients.
    I am considering a run down to Florida but I may well pop into one of the local L.D.S. wards this Sunday for prayer and advice?!
    I am thinking of a way to turn L.D.S. missionaries in several wards into reporters and audio-video journalists if they are willing to
    take on my rather interesting case?
    "The Muddy Water Experiment film production cooperative proposed....."
  2. Thanks
    DennisTate reacted to Traveler in Brigham Young, Indian Slavery & Indentured Servitude   
    The more we study history the more we discover contradiction in human behavior.  We currently live in a unique time and place that is like a polar opposite to the historical human nature.
    The Traveler
  3. Okay
    DennisTate reacted to NeuroTypical in Brigham Young, Indian Slavery & Indentured Servitude   
    Yep, passing judgment on the cultural aspects of other or past cultures.   I try hard to pass on the opportunity.
  4. Okay
    DennisTate reacted to Vort in Brigham Young, Indian Slavery & Indentured Servitude   
    I wonder how our modern sensibilities apply in the eternal sense to such people. I am reminded of Ammon the Disarming, who told the Old King bluntly that if he (the Old King) were to die at that moment, his soul could not be saved. Not "would not", but "could not". Yet in a matter of dozens of hours, this exceedingly wicked man was converted to God and spent the rest of his life (not long) serving God.
    Walkara indeed seems like a brute and a force of evil. I'm just not sure what that means in any eternal sense. If our judgments of good and evil here in mortality are so ephemeral, passing such judgment seems futile. I suppose that is why we have been encouraged (read: commanded) not to judge people in what Elder Oaks called a final sense.
    tl;dr—Righteous judgment is hard.
  5. Thanks
    DennisTate reacted to Suzie in Brigham Young, Indian Slavery & Indentured Servitude   
    JAG, he was the definition of evil. About your question, it was actually a common practice by the Utes. When he died, I believe a couple of women and one boy were buried alive. His horses were killed too to keep him company. It has been said he was buried with the last letter of Young in his hand.
  6. Okay
    DennisTate reacted to Just_A_Guy in Brigham Young, Indian Slavery & Indentured Servitude   
    It’s hard for me to avoid characterizing Wakara as a miserable, evil SOB.  Didn’t he leave instructions for the live burial of a couple of slave women and children with him to serve him into the afterlife?
  7. Thanks
    DennisTate reacted to Suzie in Brigham Young, Indian Slavery & Indentured Servitude   
    Is this a cut and paste from somewhere? 
    No, I gathered all the information and put it together. I will edit my original post and add some of the sources (I normally do this but I have a COVID vaccine brain at the moment).
  8. Okay
    DennisTate reacted to NeuroTypical in Brigham Young, Indian Slavery & Indentured Servitude   
    It's such a fascinating chapter in US, LDS, and frontier American history.
    Is this a cut and paste from somewhere?   If so, please cite the source.
  9. Thanks
    DennisTate reacted to Suzie in Brigham Young, Indian Slavery & Indentured Servitude   
    Slave trade was an essential and established activity of native Indian life in Utah prior to 1847. The Utes, often traded Indian children (including their own) for goods and firearms. When Mormons arrived, they were confronted with this disturbing reality and were coerced into participation. Early members felt they didn’t have a choice in the matter, if they were not willing to do it the Utes would sell the children to the Mexican trade, torture them or kill them. However, when Mormons first arrived in Utah, Ute Chief Walkara welcome them with open arms, thinking perhaps that they would become potential customers and business partners.
    In 1848 New Mexico became part of the United States, and as a result, things were about to change dramatically for known Mexican traders such as Don Pedro Leon Lujan. He made a request to Brigham Young (Utah's governor and ex officio superintendent of Indian affairs) for a new license. Young refused to grant it and also, gave him a lecture about the evils of Indian slavery. Later on, Don Pedro was discovered with Indian slaves and was charged with trading with Indians without proper documentation, arrested and sent to trial. Chief Walkara was furious at this unexpected outcome because his livelihood was now being threatened by the Mormons. The Indian slave trade as previously mentioned, was an established practice long before the Mormons arrived in Utah.
    In 1851, the brother of Ute Chief Walkara, decided to go to Provo, confront the Mormons and force them to buy slaves. When the early members refused, he went into a rage telling them they didn’t have the right to stop Don Pedro Leon Lujan from buying children unless they were willing to do it themselves.
    Daniel W. Jones (Mormon pioneer and who started the first translations of the BOM into Spanish) recorded:
    “Several of us were present when he took one of the children by the heels and dashed his brains out on the hard ground. He then threw the body toward the Mormons and told them that if they’d had a heart, they would have purchased the child instead.” (The Other Slavery: The Uncovered Story of Indian Enslavement in America, Andres Resendez)
    Solomon F. Kimball stated: “The red men were not long in learning that the Saints were a tender hearted people and could not witness such scenes without sympathizing to the uttermost with those who were being tortured”. (The Effects of Spanish Slavery on the Indians of the Intermountain West, Carling Malouf & A. Arline Malouf). 
    John Young described one of the children they were able to save: “She was the saddest little piece of humanity I have ever seen, they had shingled her head with butcher knives and fire brands. All the fleshy parts of her body, legs and arms have been hacked with knives, then fire brands had been stuck into the wounds. She was gaunt with hunger and smeared from head to foot with blood and ashes.” (Memoirs of John R. Young, Utah Pioneer, 1847)
    Even though Mormon pioneers opposed the practice, Brigham Young saw it as an opportunity to save them from death and starvation. He stated that these children were so emaciated that they were not able to stand upon their feet. He also mentioned that Ute Chief Walkara was in the “habit of tying them out from his camp at night, naked, and destitute of food unless it is so cold, he apprehends they would freeze to death”. (The Whites Want Everything: Indian-Mormon Relations 1847-1877 ) So he encouraged early members to buy Indian children, particularly those who were on the verge of death.
    Brian Q. Cannon noted that Mormons bought slaves for a variety of reasons: Some early members wanted to buy these children because they felt they needed to be “civilized” and wanted to convert them to Mormonism (and Anglo-Americanized). Child slaves soon became a vital source of labor for early settlers. They traded these children with other members or even gave them as gifts. Orson Pratt stated that “the Lord has caused us to come here for this very purpose that we might accomplish the redemption of these suffering degraded Israelites.” (Journal of Discourses Volume 9: Salvation of the House of Israel to Come Through the Gentiles).
    At least one of these minors, Sally Pidash Young, was indentured by Brigham Young himself. There is anecdotal evidence that suggests that these children were not always treated equally. Some were treated as children of the family and others were exploited and mistreated. They worked as servants for long hours and were not taught how to read or write. They also slept separately from the rest of the family.
    Brigham Young was aware of this and advocated the passage of the Act for the Relief of Indian Slaves and Prisoners of 1852 which allowed Utah residents to become guardians of Indian minors for up to 20 years. Even though it was not the ideal outcome, it provided some sort of legal protection towards these children since part of the agreement was to ensure that they were clothed "in a comfortable and becoming manner" and receive an education.
    Some members and historians argue whether or not the church is guilty for engaging in the Indian slave trade. The following is not to justify the activity; however, true motives of why some early Mormon settlers started to engage in the practice shouldn’t be ignored. Despite the controversy, Young himself was opposed to Indian slavery.
    In his address to the Utah Territorial Legislature in 1852 he stated the following:
    “It is unnecessary perhaps for me to indicate the true policy for Utah in regard to slavery...When human flesh is to be dealt as property; it is not consistent or compatible with the true principals of government. My own feelings are that no property can or should be recognized as existing in slaves, either Indian or African.
    No persons can purchase them [Indians] without their becoming as free, so far as natural rights are concerned, as persons of any color; under the present law and degraded situation of the Indian Race, so long as the practice of gambling away, selling and otherwise disposing off their children, as also sacrificing prisoners, occurs among them, it seems indeed that any transfer would be to them a relief and a benefit…
    This may be said to present a new feature in the traffic of human beings; it is essentially purchasing them into a freedom instead of slavery; but it is not the low, servile drudgery of Mexican slavery, to which I would doom them, not to be raised among beings scarcely superior to themselves but where they could find that considerations pertaining not only to be civilized but humane and benevolent society.” (Address to the Utah Territorial Legislature, 1852)
  10. Thanks
    DennisTate reacted to Traveler in Wealth   
    I will attempt to make this response short.  As near as I have determined wealth ought to best be used to relieve the sufferings of the poor. 
    I do agree with you about doctrines - or what is often thought of and expressed as doctrines (especially in such things as near death experiences) to be misleading.  Isaiah indicated that there are three "things" or expressions that bring us closer to G-d or cause us to separate ourselves from G-d.  The three things that bring us closer are.  The Law, the Ordinances and the Covenants.  Likewise we become separated from G-d by:  Transgressing the Law, changing the Ordinances and breaking the everlasting Covenant.   Isaiah does not include doctrine.  Some may argue that Isaiah's words are doctrine.  I personally thing such is somewhat of a misdirection.
    If one understands that a Kingdom requires a King (supreme Suzerain) and his appointed servant vassals to (as proxy for G-d): Provide the Law, administer the Ordinances and be proctors for the covenants.  My experiences with near death experiences is that ideas and doctrines are added or expressed (having a form of G-dlyness) but denying the power thereof (Providing the Law, administer the Ordinances and the proctors for the covenants).
    The Traveler
  11. Thanks
    DennisTate reacted to NeuroTypical in The church doesn't discipline or excommunicate anyone any more.   
    I was dis-invited from our local Mega church's "Are mormons Christan" study group.  I went to every class, and when they asked me a question, I answered.  Behold portions of the subsequent email exchange:
  12. Okay
    DennisTate reacted to LDSGator in The church doesn't discipline or excommunicate anyone any more.   
    Need to try harder bro. Those are rookie numbers. 😉 
  13. Thanks
    DennisTate got a reaction from Anddenex in A Pentacostal Reads the BoM   
    I personally believe that the Book of Mormon is brilliantly written.....
    fits beautifully with the Jewish and Christian scriptures.... fits beautifully with modern near death experience accounts which I feel fit perfectly with 2 Corinthians 12 : 2-4 but..... I feel that my role in life is to assist Latter day Saints to connect with Pentecostals, Charismatic Catholics, other Christians who like me are fascinated by near death experience accounts and also with Jews, (especially Jews who like me love the near death experience account of former Atheist Rabbi Alon Anava.)
    I feel that my calling toward Judaism and toward the Jewish people somewhat modifies the way that I approach the question of whether or not I should become a full fledged baptized Mormon or not????????
    34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye alove one another; as I have loved you, that ye also blove one another.
    35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have alove one to another." (John 13)
    I feel that Atheism will begin to be taken out of its position of power and control over the educational system of all nations as Jews, Latter day Saints and Christians of all denominations begin to have win - win - win - win discussions with each other as opposed to the debates over specific doctrines that characterized interdenominational discussions in the past.  
  14. Thanks
    DennisTate reacted to Traveler in Wealth   
    Jesus often criticized wealth.  What is it about wealth that is so worthy of such attention and what must be done to overcome the disadvantage of wealth.  I would also submit that anyone living in the USA would qualify as being wealthy in relationship to the standards of the time in which Jesus lived.  In essence what are we doing with our wealth?
    The Traveler
  15. Okay
    DennisTate reacted to person0 in A Pentacostal Reads the BoM   
    The truth.  Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind.  He paid the infinite price of sin and overcame death and hell to pave the way for us to become clean and to receive eternal life.  The Spirit testifies of this truth.  The truth is absolute, and God makes it known to man by the power of the Holy Ghost.  It is the absolute and eternal truth that determines what religious beliefs are right and wrong.
    What you are describing here is not something that is possible.  The Holy Ghost will not and cannot give two conflicting answers to the question, "Is Jesus Christ the Son of God and the Savior of Mankind?"  He likewise will not and cannot give conflicting answers to the question, "Is the Book of Mormon a true book and the Word of God?"
    This has nothing to do with what we can or cannot accept, it solely pertains to what is and what is not.  The question at hand is not dependent on other factors such as what is proper for you to eat as compared to me based on the differences in our physical health.  Either the answer and testimony we have interpreted is true or it is not.  The same applies to you.  These conflicting answers are mutually exclusive.  God is not the author of confusion, He is no respecter of persons, He is the same yesterday, today and forever.  If one cannot rely upon Him to give identical answers to the same question regarding individual facts, then God could not be a trusted source of information, and ultimately could not be the object of our reverence, praise, and worship.  The naivety comes in believing God can or would ever contradict Himself when speaking to different individuals.
    I am a child of God and an emissary of Christ.  I am a holder of His holy priesthood.  It is by Christs authority that I declare His truth.  I desire only to witness of that which is right.  I know the Book of Mormon is true, and that Christ is the only way whereby mankind may be saved.  The Holy Ghost has made this known unto me and He can and will make it known unto you.  It is not I, not any other man that has established this as God's truth, but God Himself has done it.  If you believe He has made known unto you something different, then at a minimum, you must also believe that I and others have misunderstood or misinterpreted the answer we received.  But I know the answers I have received are correct and true, and therefore, I invite you to come to the knowledge that the answer you believe you received, came not from God.  I invite you to repent and to seek after this truth once more as you claim to have done in the past.  You are endowed with the freedom to reject this, and to disbelieve it, but it will not make it any less true.  I testify of these truths with boldness stemming from the love I have for you as my sister in Christ, and the desire for your eternal salvation in the Kingdom of God, through Christs atoning grace, and I do so in His name.
  16. Thanks
    DennisTate reacted to marge in A Pentacostal Reads the BoM   
    The 6000 year thing is largely due to an Irish Anglican Archbishop called James Ussher in the 1600s, a bible was even published with his 'supposed' dates on the top of pages in the bible, they were taken out around 1900.  Most Christian Denominations don't believe the world is only 6000 years old.  
  17. Okay
    DennisTate reacted to marge in A Pentacostal Reads the BoM   
    I would say I have studied the Book of Mormon in depth, I also did come follow me all last year (and most of this year on D&C) I've attended LDS church (when I can due to covid). I've lived the Word of Wisdom the entire time, I've prayed with a sincere heart to know if its true.  After almost two years of sincere seeking (and I mean very sincere) I have to conclude that it's not true.  It makes me really sad because I WANT it to be true.
    I do still believe the Bible is the word of God though.
  18. Okay
    DennisTate reacted to Traveler in A Pentacostal Reads the BoM   
    As I read through the link I had much the same impression as you.  When the person said that they were not impressed - I drilled down and discovered that they were not impressed with the Book of Mormon as religious literature produced by a 19th century man named Joseph Smith.  Such a statement is akin to not being impressed by the Bible as literature compiled and reconstructed through the influence of a War Lord King from the Dark Ages. 
    You are correct in your assessment in part in considering the Book of Mormon through the modern science of textual criticism and applying the same textual analytics with the Bible.  Even the popular DNA criticism towards the Book of Mormon also disproves the Bible.  Especially the Biblical narrative of mankind springing from the singular parents (Adam and Eve) 6,000 years ago as well as the narrative of a global flood around 5 thousands years ago.
    The most astonishing claim of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that G-d has restored light and truth of his power and plan for the salvation of all mankind in these "last days" for the singular purpose of preparing a covenant people for the return and 1,000 year reign of his Messiah Son.  For those that are not impressed with the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr. - I would challenge that they speak directly to:
              1. That our era is not at all related to the Last-days
              2.  That Joseph Smith did not produce any religious thought of any difference or importance.
               3. That there is a far better Last-day source of religious thoughts to bring mankind back to Christ.
    As far as religions go - if it was not for the restoration - I am impressed with the intelligent light and truths taught in some of the adherents of Buddhism and in some cases Islam.  The adherents of "Traditional" Christianity I find "spiritually" as bankrupted as the Pharisees and Sadducees - having a "form" of G-dlyness but denying the power thereof. 
    The Traveler
  19. Okay
    DennisTate reacted to person0 in A Pentacostal Reads the BoM   
    I struggle to understand how a Christian can study the Book of Mormon in depth and come away from it without reaching one of two conclusions:
    1)  It is the Word of God as is the Bible
    2)  It is not the Word of God, but if not, the Bible must not be either
    I tend to automatically assume that one who reads the Book of Mormon and doesn't believe it to be true could not have fulfilled Moroni's promise, or they cast out the witness they received.  It is a very direct promise: ". . .he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."  On a separate but related note: If I were to ever leave the Church, the only other option is atheism / agnosticism.  It just seems too obvious to me that other religions are just as (if not more) flawed as detractors claim ours to be.
  20. Okay
    DennisTate reacted to Grunt in A Pentacostal Reads the BoM   
    I was thinking of him myself the other day.
  21. Thanks
    DennisTate reacted to MrShorty in A Pentacostal Reads the BoM   
    I thought of @prisonchaplain while listening to Rick Bennet's (Gospel Tangents podcast) interview with Dr. Chris Thomas who recently wrote a book about his experience reading the Book of Mormon as a Pentacostal. I thought prisonchaplain and some of you others may enjoy this. I notice prisonchaplain hasn't been on the forum in a while. All's well, I hope??
  22. Thanks
    DennisTate reacted to NeuroTypical in The church doesn't discipline or excommunicate anyone any more.   
    Interesting article from a month ago:
  23. Thanks
    DennisTate reacted to Vort in Jews, Latter day Saints, BYU in Jerusalem and Tikkun Olam?   
    This is an amazing article. Or to be more specific, this article describes something amazing.
  24. Like
    DennisTate got a reaction from Vort in Jews, Latter day Saints, BYU in Jerusalem and Tikkun Olam?   
    Latter day Saints will need to take a serious look at Israeli mega-scale salt water desalination technology in order to fulfill Isaiah chapter thirty five which will be an important step toward Tikkun Olam.  

    Israel Proves the Desalination Era Is Here
    One of the driest countries on Earth now makes more freshwater than it needs
    By Rowan Jacobsen, Ensia on July 29, 2016
  25. Thanks
    DennisTate reacted to Traveler in Requiring a COVID-19 Vaccine (shot/s)   
    Perhaps I have missed something that @Just_A_Guy could better clarify.  But requiring any discloser of someone's personal health records - I believe is in violation of HIPPA laws. 
    The Traveler