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Jesus often criticized wealth.  What is it about wealth that is so worthy of such attention and what must be done to overcome the disadvantage of wealth.  I would also submit that anyone living in the USA would qualify as being wealthy in relationship to the standards of the time in which Jesus lived.  In essence what are we doing with our wealth?

 

The Traveler

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Wealth is a blessing.  I am wealthy in children.  It does not necessarily equal US Dollars.

I found 30+ instances in the scriptures where the word wealth is used.  In many of the citings, God is blessing his children with wealth.

Filthy lucre on the other hand…

God is infinitely wealthy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:3

Edited by mikbone

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Jacob 2:17 Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you.

I think in the Lord's eyes wealth is no different than any other gift he chooses to bestow upon us, done so with the intent of blessing others. But all too often we confuse ownership and stewardship. And even when we recognize our stewardship, application of the principle is murky at times.

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10 hours ago, Traveler said:

Jesus often criticized wealth.  What is it about wealth that is so worthy of such attention and what must be done to overcome the disadvantage of wealth.  I would also submit that anyone living in the USA would qualify as being wealthy in relationship to the standards of the time in which Jesus lived.  In essence what are we doing with our wealth?

 

The Traveler

Read “Approaching Zion” by High Nibley. He has some VERY strong opinions on wealth.

Spoiler: he hates it. He thinks any search for any amount of wealth is pure evil. And that those whom Jacob 2:17-19 applies to are extremely few. He thinks we should acquire the minimum amount of wealth we need to survive, then spend our days growing spiritually.

He talks so starkly about it that I can’t tell if he is speaking of what life should idealistically be, or if getting paid to study scripture all day, which also offered long term security and payment, made him ignorant of reality.

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Perhaps a slight detour but nonetheless related in that it provides perspective on seeking wealth.

D&C 82:18 And all this for the benefit of the church of the living God, that every man may improve upon his talent, that every man may gain other talents, yea, even an hundred fold, to be cast into the Lord’s storehouse, to become the common property of the whole church—
19 Every man seeking the interest of his neighbor, and doing all things with an eye single to the glory of God.

So talents, in every manifestation of the word, if sought after, should be done with the view of building the kingdom of God. Of course not every talent is of equal value. But this perspective could dramatically alter what talents we choose to develop as well as their use.

 

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18 hours ago, Traveler said:

Jesus often criticized wealth.  What is it about wealth that is so worthy of such attention and what must be done to overcome the disadvantage of wealth.  I would also submit that anyone living in the USA would qualify as being wealthy in relationship to the standards of the time in which Jesus lived.  In essence what are we doing with our wealth?

The Traveler

He certainly criticized the love of wealth, one attribute of the natural man. When we live by the Light of Christ, we find ways to put our wealth to worthwhile use in helping others. When we join the Church, we also consecrate our wealth according the system in place (currently tithing), and with the Gift of the Holy Ghost we can do more than with the Light of Christ. All we can do personally is act within the "bounds of our habitation" the Lord has determined and appointed to us (Acts 17:26-31). We can do a lot more when united as saints in the Church organization.

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On 10/26/2021 at 11:47 AM, Traveler said:

Jesus often criticized wealth.  What is it about wealth that is so worthy of such attention and what must be done to overcome the disadvantage of wealth.  I would also submit that anyone living in the USA would qualify as being wealthy in relationship to the standards of the time in which Jesus lived.  In essence what are we doing with our wealth?

 

The Traveler

I would change one part of the first sentence, it wasn't "wealth" per se Jesus was criticizing. It was the "attitude" for those who obtained wealth that Jesus criticized. The easiest example is the rich young men, which goes back to what has already been shared considering ownership and stewardship. If people's attitudes are ownership then it remains that they have an "idol" as they place money as their own, and do not realize or reject the giver of that monies. They then spend their money on themselves, or like the Pharisees they give a lot to be seen of men.

One of our prophets (I believe it was Spencer W. Kimball in Miracle of Forgiveness) mentioned the size of homes starting to happen in Utah were a sign of Pride, and we have even bigger homes now in Utah, some of which are GAs. This, of course, is one of the inconsistencies I find in the earthly Kingdom of God confusing.

In college, I wish I could see the math myself, I was informed if you accumulated the vast majority of wealth from everyone in the World into one pool and then divided it equally it would result in about 12 million per person. We have more money now throughout the world then we did previously.

If a person forgets where their wealth comes from, then that attitude is the reason why Zion could never be organized -- pride and selfishness. The easiest example is the $200 million dollar yacht. That money could have gone to better use, but went to selfish means.

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On 10/26/2021 at 11:47 AM, Traveler said:

Jesus often criticized wealth.  What is it about wealth that is so worthy of such attention and what must be done to overcome the disadvantage of wealth.  I would also submit that anyone living in the USA would qualify as being wealthy in relationship to the standards of the time in which Jesus lived.  In essence what are we doing with our wealth?

 

The Traveler

When we put anything over that of the Lord, we are putting things first before the things of heaven.

Those who value material wealth are like the Rich Man who when asked to give away all he had...could not do it.  I'm sure he would have said he would or could do it at times when he wasn't actually asked to do so (like many today probably say they can), but when it truly came time to do as asked...he could not.

Many of those who have material things and wealth put their OWN comfort over others, and their own desires over others.  Instead of living in a 1 bedroom apartment in old age with only the things they need, they live in big houses, nice cars, and other things while there are those in the world that go hungry, homeless, cold, and lacking in many of the basic necessities of life.  We put our OWN selves and needs over that of others.  In very act and deed we are not "loving our neighbors as ourselves" as one could put it.

The more material wealth we have, the harder it is to put others before ourselves or at least equal to our own needs and necessities.  In fact, I'd say 99% of the Western World (US and Europe) fall into this boat (and yes, in that way even I would be hypocritical of pointing this out).  We don't want to live in that meager existence with just the basics as we get older, we want all the creature comforts society has to offer.

The question is, who are we REALLY putting first then.  Are we putting ourselves before others, above others by keeping what we have and making excuses of why they are not as well off as we are?  Are we putting our material things over and above the Lord and his desires?

An realistic look at the things the Lord asked of us in the New Testament and how Peter and the Apostles went about enforcing it would show that almost all of us today are NOT putting the Lord's higher laws first, nor are we putting his desires above our own. 

If we did, we too could live in a society like the Nephites where there were no rich or poor among them.  Many times people focus on the idea that there were no poor among them...but forget...there were no RICH among them either.  There are many today that would refuse to live in such a manner.

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On 10/26/2021 at 2:47 PM, Traveler said:

Jesus often criticized wealth.  What is it about wealth that is so worthy of such attention and what must be done to overcome the disadvantage of wealth.  I would also submit that anyone living in the USA would qualify as being wealthy in relationship to the standards of the time in which Jesus lived.  In essence what are we doing with our wealth?

 

The Traveler

My theory is that we Christians squabble too much with each other over doctrinal differences because we feel that proving that our denomination has the best doctrines is the key to taking in more tithes and offerings......... I plead guilty..... I feel I was guilty of doing that myself from 1972 to 1991..... and then I started reading near death experience accounts and began to look at all of this differently........ The squabbles between the First Century Messianic Jewish community with the Rabbinic Jewish community also was affected by a similar type of problematic thinking............
 
 
I would love to see at least two Latter day Saint profit making film productions created, one for male LDS missionaries and a second one for the Sisters.
 
I would love to see you Latter day Saints involved in an alternative universe 1939 that postulates the nine hundred and seven Jewish refugees on the M. S. St. Louis met by fishermen and fisherwomen and taken into Nova Scotia but.......
 
all of this fits with the modern prediction of an Exodus of USA Jews up to Canada and then on to Israel so......
 
you could assist Jews to be able to make Aliyah to Israel by assisting many of them to begin acting careers... where they play the role of themselves in the present.... and as Jewish refugees in 1939????? I tossed this idea at an Israeli Breslovian Chassidic online friend of mine and he replied"
 
 
 
Quote (Geoffrey Max Mordecai) :
 
 
"It’s possible today with UTube, to produce and distribute freely.
 
 
IDEA:
 
No sex, No Commercials, Exclusive insights into the 8 Books of Moses!
 
Through drama- historic drama and current events.
 
That’s it. It can be produced by local communities, even inexpensively, because the interesting part is the DATA (unique relevant insight).
 
It’s not about making money, it’s about influencing history in a positive way.
 
Everything through prayer is fine, but life is a two step, like the waves in nature (which we men are way above the second we try to espouse God into our lives)." (Geoffrey Max Mordecai)
 
 
Jews, Latter day Saints, BYU in Jerusalem and Tikkun Olam?
 
 
 

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4 hours ago, DennisTate said:
My theory is that we Christians squabble too much with each other over doctrinal differences because we feel that proving that our denomination has the best doctrines is the key to taking in more tithes and offerings......... I plead guilty..... I feel I was guilty of doing that myself from 1972 to 1991..... and then I started reading near death experience accounts and began to look at all of this differently........ The squabbles between the First Century Messianic Jewish community with the Rabbinic Jewish community also was affected by a similar type of problematic thinking............
 
 
I would love to see at least two Latter day Saint profit making film productions created, one for male LDS missionaries and a second one for the Sisters.
 
I would love to see you Latter day Saints involved in an alternative universe 1939 that postulates the nine hundred and seven Jewish refugees on the M. S. St. Louis met by fishermen and fisherwomen and taken into Nova Scotia but.......
 
all of this fits with the modern prediction of an Exodus of USA Jews up to Canada and then on to Israel so......
 
you could assist Jews to be able to make Aliyah to Israel by assisting many of them to begin acting careers... where they play the role of themselves in the present.... and as Jewish refugees in 1939????? I tossed this idea at an Israeli Breslovian Chassidic online friend of mine and he replied"
 
 
 
Quote (Geoffrey Max Mordecai) :
 
 
"It’s possible today with UTube, to produce and distribute freely.
 
 
IDEA:
 
No sex, No Commercials, Exclusive insights into the 8 Books of Moses!
 
Through drama- historic drama and current events.
 
That’s it. It can be produced by local communities, even inexpensively, because the interesting part is the DATA (unique relevant insight).
 
It’s not about making money, it’s about influencing history in a positive way.
 
Everything through prayer is fine, but life is a two step, like the waves in nature (which we men are way above the second we try to espouse God into our lives)." (Geoffrey Max Mordecai)
 
 
Jews, Latter day Saints, BYU in Jerusalem and Tikkun Olam?
 
 
 

I will attempt to make this response short.  As near as I have determined wealth ought to best be used to relieve the sufferings of the poor. 

I do agree with you about doctrines - or what is often thought of and expressed as doctrines (especially in such things as near death experiences) to be misleading.  Isaiah indicated that there are three "things" or expressions that bring us closer to G-d or cause us to separate ourselves from G-d.  The three things that bring us closer are.  The Law, the Ordinances and the Covenants.  Likewise we become separated from G-d by:  Transgressing the Law, changing the Ordinances and breaking the everlasting Covenant.   Isaiah does not include doctrine.  Some may argue that Isaiah's words are doctrine.  I personally thing such is somewhat of a misdirection.

If one understands that a Kingdom requires a King (supreme Suzerain) and his appointed servant vassals to (as proxy for G-d): Provide the Law, administer the Ordinances and be proctors for the covenants.  My experiences with near death experiences is that ideas and doctrines are added or expressed (having a form of G-dlyness) but denying the power thereof (Providing the Law, administer the Ordinances and the proctors for the covenants).

 

The Traveler

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On 10/26/2021 at 2:47 PM, Traveler said:

Jesus often criticized wealth.  What is it about wealth that is so worthy of such attention and what must be done to overcome the disadvantage of wealth.  I would also submit that anyone living in the USA would qualify as being wealthy in relationship to the standards of the time in which Jesus lived.  In essence what are we doing with our wealth?

 

The Traveler

It is important to remember that the word of God is a TWO edged sword.  On one level I believe that this means that there is a 

positive hidden level of meaning in verses that may have a very negative context.  

"And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do." (Genesis 11)

 

In my opinion because the L.D.S. church has reached a population of sixteen million you are now at what could be termed "The Critical Mass" necessary to be able to fulfill the positive side to this verse.  Human productive capability is essentially without a cap or limit when human being can agree on a goal being worthy and possible.

 

Ecclesiastes 10:19
"A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things. "

 

This is one of the reasons why I have suggested the creation of a Utah State Dollar or Utah State Volunteerism Hour similar to the Worgl Austria Local Money Experiment that was replicated in about a thousand USA towns and cities during the Great Depression.

 

 

Quote

City in Austria Printed Local Currency
Worgl, like many other European towns and cities, was hit hard by the Great Depression. There was mass unemployment; four of the five local factories had closed, and the people were starving in the streets. Nobody had any money to buy anything. One of the features of an economic depression is that there is not enough money in circulation to ensure that people can meet their basic needs, and in the 1930s, the shortage of currency in many countries of the world became catastrophic.

The mayor of Worgl, together with local businessmen, decided to try to break this economic impasse by creating their own local currency. They printed and issued 60,000 Austrian shillings worth of local currency. These shillings could only be spent in Worgl, so they remained in the local community and were exchanged over and over again.

The positive impact was immediate and surprising to everyone. In only six weeks, unemployment disappeared, all the factories had reopened and everyone had food. For the inhabitants of Worgl, the economic depression was gone. This dramatic transformation became known as the “miracle of Worgl.” Surrounding towns, inspired by the success of Worgl, immediately started printing their own local currencies.

Sadly, the miracle did not last long. When the Austrian Central Bank heard about Worgl’s local currency, they initiated legal proceedings against the mayor and local businessmen. According to Austrian banking law, it was illegal for anyone except the Austrian Central Bank to issue money. The bank won the court case, and the mayor was ordered to shut down the local currency, which he did, under threat of imprisonment. The town then returned to the devastating economic depression of the 1930s, with all the human pain and suffering associated with this catastrophe. Factories closed, and once again, the people starved.

Alternative Currency in the U.S.
Irving Fisher, an American professor of economics at Yale University, visited Worgl before the local currency was suppressed and witnessed the ‘miracle’ firsthand. When he returned to the United States, Fisher spread the word by traveling and lecturing across the country, advocating the use of the Worgl ‘scrip’ everywhere. Inspired by his vision, hundreds of communities began issuing their own currency, and by 1934 there were over 1,000 local communities using ‘scrip’ throughout the U.S.

Every one of these communities experienced a tremendous rejuvenation of their local economies. They thrived while others suffered. Fisher then met with President Franklin D. Roosevelt, proposing the implementation of government-sanctioned local ‘scrip’ in every community in America. When FDR consulted with his top financial advisors and bankers, however, he was advised to shut all the ‘scrip’ systems down, which he did. Instead, he borrowed large amounts of money from bankers, at interest, and used it to pay for the Reconstruction Finance Corporation and the other work-creation projects, which collectively came to be known as the ‘New Deal.’ So ended the last widespread use of a local currency within the U.S.

This pattern of economic collapse and re-emergence of local currencies has occurred thousands of times in many parts of the world. When these currencies have failed or have been suppressed, banks have not always been to blame. Sometimes, local currencies fail because they have been badly designed or implemented. Sometimes, people lose interest in them when the mainstream economy recovers. But they have always returned in one form or another during times of economic failure.

Our present world situation is uniquely different. Despite a relatively prosperous and stable world economy, a quiet monetary revolution has been occurring around the globe over the last 20 years. Awareness is growing about the flaws in our current monetary system, and people are re-creating viable alternatives. We are witnessing for the first time the worldwide creation of money systems designed by the people who use them, instead of by central banks." ( by Francis and Lia AyleyThe Truth About Money: The Money System�Isn�t There a Better Way?)

 

Edited by DennisTate
add bold code...

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