zil2
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Posts posted by zil2
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19 minutes ago, SilentOne said:
If your boyfriend is a wizard, it may also be possible to send a magical message to him if you have access to such resources.
23 minutes ago, SilentOne said:Finally, be patient. Hatching a dragon egg can take several weeks or even months, so try not to get too discouraged if it doesn't hatch right away.
I hope this information is helpful, and I wish you the best of luck with your dragon egg.
Best conversation ever!
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In theory, for adults, the bishop should not be discussing anything with anyone other than God (unless formal discipline needs to happen). But I don't know what the rules are with minors. You could ask him what his policy is and see if he'll give a straight answer: "Bishop, if I wanted to talk to ask you some questions about the gospel, would you feel obligated to tell my father about our discussion?"
That said, here are my three thoughts (two of which aren't mine):
QuoteMay your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.
-- Nelson MandelaPlease take some time to consider the source of your fear of talking to your father. If your father is abusive, then go tell the cops. Otherwise, I think the Lord himself would tell you not to fear:
Quote2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Moses 1:20 And it came to pass that Moses began to fear exceedingly; and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell. Nevertheless, calling upon God, he received strength, and he commanded, saying: Depart from me, Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of glory.
If you don't feel like you can talk openly with your father and / or mother, it might be a good idea to have a conversation with them about that. "Dad, I don't feel like I can talk openly with you about my thoughts and feelings. I feel like you would yell at me, or dismiss my thoughts and feelings as meaningless, or that you wouldn't take time to think about my perspective and talk with me rather than at me, or [insert your concerns here]... Could we work together to figure out what it would take for us to be able to have such conversations?"
Because this is how you build a lasting, deeper, more loving relationship with your father - not by avoiding difficult things, but by working through them together. (And yes, I know that probably sounds really scary, but see above quotes - fear is Satan's tool, not God's.)
FWIW.
- Just_A_Guy, askandanswer and Vort
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37 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:
Isn't that rather the point? One can only understand redness by looking at a red object. If there was another Mary in another room, the first Mary could not convey her new knowledge of redness to her, except by showing her something red.
Yes, I was reversing it - Mary will need to come out of the room - all the in-room knowledge won't be enough.
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2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:
You could know all "about" God, but still not actually know God.
The thought which came to mind when I read this was about society's obsession with celebrities - some people think they know [some famous person], when the reality is, they know what's told about them, which is not the same thing. Even God has lots of lies told about Him.
2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:Only when you when you go outside the room...really reach out for God...not merely for information "about" God...can salvation, grace, God's love, the fellowship of the Spirit become really part of us. It is a very uncomfortable thing, but one which is required of all of us sooner or later.
The Spirit communicates things that cannot be understood by any other means, thus, Mary's room cannot apply - too many things that cannot be measured or described. Uncomfortable though it can be, my experience is that the Lord is merciful, kind, and gentle - most of the time. And when he's not, it's because we need Him not to be. (Don't know about the rest of you, but sometimes, I need a good whack upside the head by a spiritual 2x4...)
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12 minutes ago, estradling75 said:
We are important to our Savior and our Father. Because of this that which is important to us, becomes important to them.
They delight in blessing us.. The only limits are our faith, and it being 'Right' according to the wisdom of God.
This was my conclusion. I have experienced blessings in my life that really, there was no explanation for other than that God loves me. Some people would call them coincidences or natural consequences, but I know otherwise. Lately I've been wondering how much we miss out on because we let practicality get in the way. I'm not suggesting we stop going to the grocery store and expect the Lord to multiple the food that's in the house (though I really wouldn't complain if my half gallon of ice cream never ran out). But I do wonder if there aren't more blessings available, but first we have to think it through and ask. And perhaps do some preparing...
2 Kings 4 (bold bit is mine)
Quote1 Now there cried a certain woman of the wives of the sons of the prophets unto Elisha, saying, Thy servant my husband is dead; and thou knowest that thy servant did fear the Lord: and the creditor is come to take unto him my two sons to be bondmen.
2 And Elisha said unto her, What shall I do for thee? tell me, what hast thou in the house? And she said, Thine handmaid hath not any thing in the house, save a pot of oil.
3 Then he said, Go, borrow thee vessels abroad of all thy neighbours, even empty vessels; borrow not a few.
4 And when thou art come in, thou shalt shut the door upon thee and upon thy sons, and shalt pour out into all those vessels, and thou shalt set aside that which is full.
5 So she went from him, and shut the door upon her and upon her sons, who brought the vessels to her; and she poured out.
6 And it came to pass, when the vessels were full, that she said unto her son, Bring me yet a vessel. And he said unto her, There is not a vessel more. And the oil stayed.
7 Then she came and told the man of God. And he said, Go, sell the oil, and pay thy debt, and live thou and thy children of the rest.
It seems to me, the more she borrowed, the more the Lord would have given her. How much more might we receive if we, figuratively, crammed our house to the rafters full of vessels in which to receive?
I've also assumed that Christ loved and honored his earthly parents. His mother had a problem she apparently couldn't solve. He loved her, and helped her, as a good son would.
We do a lot for family, even when their problems seem like they could have been avoided. To me, this story speaks of the love and mercy and generosity of God. It teaches us to come to Him with our problems, great and small.
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19 hours ago, mordorbund said:
John’s gospel is dramatic. He frames Jesus’ sermons with relevant scenes (the most prominent in my mind is when Judas leaves to betray him “it was night”. I think John wishes it was raining and the thunder clapped so he could have used that too)
First, I wish to say I appreciate all responses, as I want to expand my own thinking, if I can. I've also wondered about the "justification" of the miracle in question. As mentioned, it seems unique in that it only appears to save someone from inconvenience, expense, and / or embarrassment. I rather like how The Chosen handles this - that Thomas was one of the caterers.
(And yes, pure fiction, but I like it anyway.)
Verse 11 is justification enough for me, not that I really need any:
Quote11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
But more than how credible or complete the story is, and more than the facts of the event, I am concerned with these two things:
On 2/16/2023 at 9:22 AM, zil2 said:1. What does this tell me about the character and behavior of God / Christ?
2. What does this teach me to think / feel / say / do?
I already mentioned #2, to a degree. The speaker mentioned that Christ listened to the person with the problem, and rather than jumping straight to "let me fix that for you", he asked, "what would you like me to do?" She then shared the story (sorry, can't remember the details), of a sister with children, going through some trial. Church members did what they always do: brought her food. When the speaker (or maybe it was someone else) entered this sister's house to see what the sister needed, it was overflowing with food. The sister didn't need food. But no one was asking or listening. I think another lesson from that was for the person in need - don't be afraid to say what you do need (otherwise people will dump a boatload of food on you).
But then there's #1. What does this story teach us about the character and behavior of our Savior? Anyone have thoughts on that one?
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1 hour ago, mordorbund said:
O ye of little faith.
It's more like I don't want my donut (or "doughnut", see next) turning into Brussels sprouts!
(TIL: It's not "brussel sprouts" - which is how it sounds when people talk about them - or "brussels sprouts", but "Brussels sprouts" - go figure. What a picky veggie! I'm a little peeved they didn't even bother to point this out when I traveled through Brussels...)
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1 hour ago, person0 said:
I think the primary purpose is to express gratitude and to thank God for providing for our physical nourishment.
Agreed. And I do indeed pray over my food now, every time, even junk food. But you won't hear me asking God to make my donut nourishing. Talk about hypocrisy, or something. And if anything, I'm now more grateful for all the food I eat, and more mindful of how nourishing it, in and of itself, may be. (Those were questions I was asking myself, not asking the group - though I appreciate feedback on that, too, since I've resolved to always be open to changes that improve my spiritual experience.)
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I want to see if more people have thoughts before I share my own, but I'll share someone else's - one of the speakers in our Stake Conference. It goes back to verse 4, where Christ says to his mother: "Woman, what wilt thou have me to do for thee? that will I do". It seems clear we're missing something between verses 4 and 5 because she doesn't answer him. An example of the speaker's take away can be seen in Ether with the story of the brother of Jared: When asking the Lord for something, be specific. Don't just say, "please solve all my problems" (or even "this one problem"). You're less likely to get that. And you'd be lucky if you got what the brother of Jared got: "You can't have these options, so, other than those, what would you like me to do?"
It seems like a good lesson to me. It's pretty easy to ask the Lord to "help us" or "help [some person]" and be awfully vague about it. "Bless so-and-so with what she needs to get through this trial" or some other vague wording, because, ya know, what do we know about what she needs to get through this trial? I mean, really. But I think that was the point of the talk and one take-away from this lesson - listen, observe, do hard thinking, test out your theories, and then go to the Lord and ask for something specific, not, "please light my barges".
(And no, I haven't forgotten that the Lord solved the other problems more easily. But clearly, we shouldn't always just hand off our problems and say, "please fix this for me, cuz I dunno how".)
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3 hours ago, mordorbund said:
Perhaps the lesson here is that if we had the faith Jesus and his disciples demonstrated here we really could bless the donuts to “nourish and strengthen our bodies”.
Thread-jacking my own thread here, but... This is one of the many things that I really re-evaluated a couple years back. "Blessing the food" (and prayer in general) was way too consistent / repetitive and irrational. It was also something that my mind associated with gatherings (multiple people). Living alone for most of my life, it was hard to develop a habit of praying over meals. It felt just plain weird. So I started to really, seriously think about why we pray over food at every meal? Should we? How should we? In case it's not obvious, this phrase has been dropped from my prayers and if I'm ever asked to pray over food at a Church gathering, folk might be shocked by what they hear.
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5 hours ago, Vort said:
I think that even today, God continues to dumb down our teachings until they reach a point that we are willing to grasp. Perhaps at some point we can return to growing in our collective understanding through revelation instead of retreating from sacred truths that we are too impure to receive.
Part of me wants to agree with you. There's more than enough scriptural evidence that this phenomenon repeats. The children of Israel, under Moses, literally said, "God's too scary for us. You go talk to him and tell us what he said." And in my BofM study a few days ago, Nephi said this:
Quote2 Nephi 32:7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.
There's no reason to think we are immune. But a lot of the changes I have seen in recent years have actually helped me. Perhaps what seems to you as the Lord dumbing things down is actually the nudging that will help us to grow through personal revelation rather than relying on the collective revelation (received via the Prophet and shared with the church - not that I think we're lacking in that). Perhaps this is us getting the opportunity to step up.
I'm reminded of the Lord explaining why he taught in parables. I think of the wheat and the tares. Perhaps this is a case of allowing the "tender wheat" to survive long enough to grow strong. Perhaps it will strengthen the more mature wheat*. Perhaps it will be enough to convert a few tares to wheat...
* I think of the most recent things: Hear Him, emphasis on strengthening your ability to receive personal direction from the Holy Ghost, Come Follow Me - home-centered, Church-supported. Etc. Not going to Church during COVID-19 helped me. My efforts to hear Him and learn directly from the Holy Ghost are helping me. The lack of more lesson material, thereby forcing me to choose between going without or seeking more personal learning, is helping me.
I expect there are those who are content to surf along, not making any greater effort. I suppose there are those who will still be offended even if they never hear the specific words which offend them. I dunno. I guess it seems to me like Christ's followers are no worse off today (as far as availability of the truth) than they were when I was a child, even though things are very, very different today...
Can it be both? I suppose it can be. Things held back generally, and yet incredible opportunities extended through the Spirit personally? I suppose it's always been that way though. (This is my non-answer.
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- SilentOne, Vort and Just_A_Guy
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Last week we read John 2:1-11 (below, with JST on v4, for convenience). I wonder if anyone has thoughts about this event, things it teaches, etc. I have my own thoughts, and something new learned in Stake Conference last weekend, but would like to hear from others (Sunday School isn't long or frequent enough, so I thought I'd try here).
Quote1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what wilt thou have me to do for thee? that will I do; for mine hour is not yet come.
5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
One thing I've been trying to do this year in my scripture study is to abstract out lessons in two basic areas:
1. What does this tell me about the character and behavior of God / Christ?
2. What does this teach me to think / feel / say / do?
...and I write such things in my journal - which greatly enhances my study. It often also expands my understanding of things I already knew, deepening faith or conversion in the process, or just widening application.
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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:
That's some pretty clean and neat handwriting. I wonder if it was a quill pen or a fountain pen. Maybe @zil2 can weigh in?
It wasn't likely a fountain pen as we know it (pen with ink contained in the pen). Those weren't really made until the 1850s and it would have taken a while for them to become commonly used. It's far more likely that it was either a quill (possibly with a steel nib) or the old style fountain pen which we now call a dip or calligraphy pen. Either way, it would have involved dipping the nib into a bottle of ink (aka ink well).
(From the site, that was written in 1854, so it could have been an early fountain pen, but it seems less likely than a dip pen.)
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9 hours ago, CrimsonKairos said:
So why I’d be banned
I was not suggesting you or @Vort be banned.
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On 2/9/2023 at 6:58 PM, CrimsonKairos said:
I really have a hard time with the Church m.o. seeming to be “keep it quiet” instead of letting parents press charges and get some counseling for the abuse victim who I’m sure continued to see his abuser at church…
Just for fun, I read this SL Tribune article you linked. That article linked to this article about a 1993 case involving the same man. The second article, and the KUTV.com article you linked include this statement (or one virtually identical), a ways under the video in the KUTV article:
QuoteAfter the molestation, David said his parents asked a mutual friend, who was a Latter-day Saint bishop, what to do. He said they were encouraged to let the church handle it.
It has taken me more time to figure out how to politely call you and @Vort jerks than to find, copy, paste, and properly cite the article(s). Of course, perhaps you use a phone for your interwebbing and are hindered by the absence of a nice big screen and keyboard... The articles also say this:
Quote"In the report, Detective Steve Jentzsch of the Salt Lake County Sheriff’s Office reported contacting David's father who stated he did not 'want to talk about what happened' and that he was 'supportive of Mr. Vanwagenen in working out this problem,' McKnight writes. "Jentzsch concluded that “the victim refused to pursue [the] complaint.” The case was subsequently closed and Van Wagenen was never charged.
IMO, your conclusion (the bit I quoted at the start of my reply) assumes facts not in evidence. Perhaps @Just_A_Guy can come and bang a gavel, or at least a ban hammer. I'm going to go now to the fountain pen forums and renew my faith in Jesus Christ, because it doesn't seem likely to happen here.
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Welcome, @Striving to be like Him!
I'm glad you've joined us and hope you can find peace and joy on your journey.
- Grunt and SpiritDragon
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8 hours ago, askandanswer said:
The same argument holds no matter the details of what was exchanged.
This is the part I disagree with, completely. Fine, OK, you want to have a fictional discussion, whatever. But if you want to discuss the realities of the gospel of Jesus Christ, then the argument does not hold, at all.
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8 hours ago, askandanswer said:
That all light and heat are the glory of God, which is His power that fills the immensity of space and is the life of all things and permeates with latent life and heat every particle of which all worlds are composed, that light, or spirit, and gross matter are the two first great primary principals of the universe, or of being, that they are self existent, co-existent, indestructible and eternal, and from these two elements both our spirits and our bodies were formulated. He taught that all systems or worlds were in revolution, the lesser around the greater
You can find that in the D & C.
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14 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:
Well, and the Skousen paradigm to which I’m responding to suggests that on an atomic (subatomic?) level, the elements themselves have a limited form of intelligence and agency; and that God’s power over the elements stems from the elements honoring God and choosing to obey His commands because of His willingness to perfectly balance the eternal principles of justice and mercy.
I'm OK with said paradigm:
QuoteD&C 121:46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.
...scriptures talk about the elements obeying God, not being manipulated by Him. Sure, maybe that's just a linguistic or cultural thing, but I tend to think otherwise. I rather like the idea of dirt having some element of intelligence and agency - though whether every particle of dirt or every electron is its own entity, I don't venture to guess. And I can't quite say why I like it beyond it being consistent with (a literal interpretation of) scripture and my own tendency to talk to inanimate objects...
Back to A&A's proposal, I think the sequence is right - God has and offers (we did not come looking, God came to us). IMO, the Joseph Smith quote I cited and Abraham 3 support that conclusion. But I don't see it as God asking for anything from us, but doing as He does now: "Here is the covenant, you can accept it or reject it." I can imagine there are intelligences who rejected it, just as there were spirits who rejected it (assuming intelligences have will or agency, which is a guess since we really don't have a clear understanding of what is meant by intelligences as a pre-spirit entity or substance or resource or energy or whatever).
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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:
He ceases to be sovereign, to be sure. But there was something about the legalism and (for lack of a better word) communitarianism involved, that I found appealing.
Hmm. I'm waiting to learn what power these folk have that they can offer to God and potentially later take away from Him. The answer to that determines whether the concept removes God's power or just gives people the ability to remove themselves from God's rule. A&A's wording makes it seem as if he imagines them having some power God doesn't have - and I'm sure you've already followed that into the Lectures on Faith conclusion - if He's lacking one power, how do we trust in him completely?
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1 hour ago, diamondheart90 said:
My husband and I were formally baptized and confirmed into the Church on Sunday, February 5, 2023!!!
I'm so happy for you, Ashley! Congratulations.
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39 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:
I find it very attractive in a lot of ways
I'm curious what you find attractive about it. When I start pulling it apart to think about what it would suggest, about the consequences of such a reality, God pretty much ceases to be God.
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22 minutes ago, askandanswer said:
I’ve sometimes thought about the possibility of a transaction between God and unspirited intelligences whereby God said to the intelligences give me power over you and I will enable your organisation and progression. And the intelligences said ok, yes, but if you ever do anything outside of this agreement we will take back from you the power we have given you and that will be the end of our arrangement.
What power do you imagine they had to give? If you mean "we will choose to obey you as our God, unless..." - your wording doesn't convey that well. Otherwise, what power?
Either way, I think Joseph Smith disagrees with you:
Quote“The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.”
If God (resurrected, exalted) is more advanced than mortal, and mortal is more advanced than spirit, and spirit is more advanced than intelligence, then your logic escapes me. It would be more like Joseph Smith describes, the more advanced offering a path to the less advanced.
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You can download it from the Church's media library. Here's the page for this video.
We do a lot for family, even when their problems seem like they could have been avoided. To me, this story speaks of the love and mercy and generosity of God. It teaches us to come to Him with our problems, great and small.
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Schisms in the Church
in General Discussion
Posted
You can watch Pastor Tom Ellis on the Angle Lake Neighborhood Church YouTube channel, and see for yourself. I like his Sunday School lessons better than his sermons (though I admit to not watching as many of the sermons) - sorry PC. He's mentioned us once or twice in a negative light - after all, we don't fit with his beliefs. But I can't remember if he's answered this specific question.