Traveler

@clbent04
I have determined our relationship with G-d is based in covenant but governed by the following principles:
. G-d does not do for us what we can do for ourselves.
. G-d does do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.
. G-d does not do anything to us that is for our eternal detriment.
. G-d does do for us that which is for our eternal benefit.
. G-d will not do anything for us without our covenant approval.
 
The covenant promises we make with G-d, although vague is quite simple:
. To love him as he loves us.
. To love others as we would ourselves.
 
The primary attribute of love is sacrifice.  In short, without sacrifice there is no love – love demands sacrifice.
Concerning knowledge of good and evil – The knowledge of evil can only come from the experience of death – death is the consequence or esence of evil.  There are two elements of death: 1. The separation of spirit from physical (we call physical death).  2. Separation of spirit (intelligence) from divine light and truth (we call this spiritual death) - spiritual death is when covenant relationship with G-d is broken.
The knowledge of good can only come from the experience of being saved from death (evil) through a divine atonement (act of ultimate sacrifice or love).
 
G-d is an eternal being - as are we - there has never been a moment that we were uninfluenced by G-d - and there never will be.  Likewise there has never been a time G-d has not been aware of us and never will be. 
 
The Traveler

@clbent04
I have determined our relationship with G-d is based in covenant but governed by the following principles:
. G-d does not do for us what we can do for ourselves.
. G-d does do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.
. G-d does not do anything to us that is for our eternal detriment.
. G-d does do for us that which is for our eternal benefit.
. G-d will not do anything for us without our covenant approval.
 
The covenant promises we make with G-d, although vague is quite simple:
. To love him as he loves us.
. To love others as we would ourselves.
 
The primary attribute of love is sacrifice.  In short, without sacrifice there is no love – love demands sacrifice.
Concerning knowledge of good and evil – The knowledge of evil can only come from the experience of death – death is the consequence or esence of evil.  There are two elements of death: 1. The separation of spirit from physical (we call physical death).  2. Separation of spirit (intelligence) from divine light and truth (we call this spiritual death) - spiritual death is when covenant relationship with G-d is broken.
The knowledge of good can only come from the experience of being saved from death (evil) through a divine atonement (act of ultimate sacrifice or love).
 
G-d is an eternal being - as are we - there has never been a moment that we were uninfluenced by G-d - and there never will be.  Likewise there has never been a time G-d has not been aware of us and never will be. 
 
The Traveler

I believe in evolution because every life that exist springs from evolution.   Not a single counter example.  You and every other life from evolves from a single cell.  Even Jesus evolved from the conception of a single cell to become a complex living child.
But concerning Eden – I am of a notion that Eden speaks symbolically of a pre-existence.   Adam in Hebrew means mankind.  I believe we all choose to partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and with Adam and Eve became fallen.  We are fallen mortals by our own just choice and agency - not by an unjust consequence of birth.  That the fall was and remains an integral and always necessary part of the perfect divine Plan of Salvation that all must partake to know good from evil in preparation for Celestial Law – not a bandage to correct an untended mistake.  We know and taste evil in death – thus the knowledge of evil is symbolic of death – both as a fallen mortal and as exile from the Father.  The knowledge of good is to know through our experience of the atonement and sacrifice of the Father and the Son to redeem all the sins of fallen mortal man and to bring about the merciful resurrection of all (though unworthy) that choose the Father’s Plan of Salvation.   We are all partaking symbolically of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  The Eden epoch is about our covenant of salvation with G-d.
 
The Traveler

First – do not confuse ordinance with ritual.  I believe ordinance encompasses more.   To become a citizen of a Kingdom there are a number of “things” that must take place.  First, we must become qualified.  Second, we must both join the kingdom and become accepted as a participant (legal citizen).
I believe the Celestial Kingdom is a divine society of freedom, liberty and justice for all its Citizens.  I believe the Celestial Kingdom is the only kingdom where its citizens enjoy freedom, liberty and justice.    This is because I believe only Celestial Law fulfils freedom, liberty and justice.  Those that cannot abide Celestial Law are bound by the law and are subject to justice.
Jesus said, “If you continue in my word, you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.”  I believe this references the law (in particular, Celestial Law).   To prepare us for Celestial Law we are given several preparatory laws (like the Law of the Gospel, The Law of Sacrifice, the Law of Chasity and others).  Our preparation includes ordinances – beginning with Baptism.  Note that when someone is given the Holy Ghost the ordinance also includes a declaration of membership in the “Kingdom of G-d” as established on earth via the Kingdom’s Vassals chosen and carinated (ordained) by the Suzerain or his designated Vassal given the Keys of the Kingdom.  This is not a meaningless jester but a binding covenant that gives the “disciple” 3 distinct promises (also part of the Abraham covenant and law).  They are – 1. A promise Land (right to place in the Celestial rheum).  2. Protection from Enemies and being plundered by enemies (forgiveness of sins and prevention from Satan taking control of one’s inheritance).  3. Enduring posterity - meaning endless “seed” and eternal life.
In response, the “disciple” promises to remain loyal and faithful in all things to the sovereign King or supreme Suzerain of the Kingdom.  These things define the Law, the ordinances and the everlasting covenant.  Note that an enduring posterity necessitates marriage as prescribed by the law.
Note in passing – I have yet to find any other claim to provide citizenship in the divine kingdom of G-d.  Without revelation, they do not seem to understand the Kingdom of G-d or it laws, ordinances and covenants.  But they seem to be obsessed only with doctrine and thus deny the power of the kingdom.
 
The Traveler

@person0
I think that any time two individuals of different families and gender – that are legally married before the laws of G-d and man - can somehow come to some agreement concerning how to raise children – that they have achieved, perhaps life’s greatest challenge.  Adolescences should be encouraged to develop their own theories as to how they will complete the challenge of raising children but trying to include such input may prove overwhelming and overly complex to parents that have much more important things on their plate.
 
The Traveler

That more religious institutions (and theologians) are interested in discussing doctrines rather than divine Law.  Which is why ordinances have been changed and in some cases thought unnecessary - in particular marriage.  Marriage is not a doctrine but a principle of divine eternal law and covenant.  Because many think "doctrine"; they teach marriage as doctrine only binding until death.
 
The Traveler

Interesting that you reference “The Law of the Garden”.  Is that different than other law – such as the “Law of the Gospel”?  I have not encountered the “Law of the Garden”.   Do you have a reference, idea or opinion?  Can you tell me what you think the “Law of the Garden” is?
 
The Traveler
 
BTW do not worry about your communications skills – my inabilities will likely trump our discussion anyway.

Perhaps missing from the discussion of @wenglund and @brlenox concerning justice and mercy: is law and agency.   There is no justice without law – neither is there a Kingdom or agency unless there is law.  We become individually conscripted to the law by our agency.
For the purpose of salvation and agency we have law.  There is Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial Law.   Likewise, there is Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial justice, mercy and agency.  In order for all these “things” to be; there must be a law giver and a proctor of the law for the law to be “fulfilled” and justice, mercy and agency applied according to those that conform, accept and apply the law to enable their citizenship in a kingdom.  Jesus is both the law giver and proctor of Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial Law.  Those that do not abide by the Law given by Jesus become “subject” to Lucifer and the Law for which he is both giver and proctor.
 
The Traveler

@person0
I think that any time two individuals of different families and gender – that are legally married before the laws of G-d and man - can somehow come to some agreement concerning how to raise children – that they have achieved, perhaps life’s greatest challenge.  Adolescences should be encouraged to develop their own theories as to how they will complete the challenge of raising children but trying to include such input may prove overwhelming and overly complex to parents that have much more important things on their plate.
 
The Traveler

I would point out that the discussion concerning the “Creation” is taking place in a Gospel Doctrine class and that we will discuss the symbolism given us concerning our covenants provided in scripture.  I would point out that if anyone wants to discuss scientific applications – that I would be more than glad to entertain questions and discussions of non-doctrinal possibilities and probabilities outside of the class.
As the class progressed any efforts to hijack the discussion – I would simply table any questions or comments – indicating that they are more appropriate for another circumstance.    Not because they are not true or not needing resolution – just not for Gospel Doctrine Class.
 
The Traveler

The ordinances of salvation - baptisms, washings and anointing’s, endowments and sealings.  This is the work Jesus has begun for immortality and eternal life of man – most of mankind await in the spirit world to receive the necessary ordinances of salvation Jesus have made available for all G-d’s children that chose to have a mortal experience.
 
The Traveler

If one follows the conversation between @Carborendum and myself – there is a subtle point that may be missed.  We think of study and we imagine our search as study of scripture and other printed material.  A very important point may be missed.  Our study and research should include meditations and other things other than the “written word”.  For example – more reverence during the participation of the “sacrament” and greater devotion in keeping the Sabbath day holy.  Not in terms of do’s and don’ts but in terms improving our meditations and resolve to use the Holy Ghost to become one with the Father and the Son.
I do not want to distract from doctrinal study but rather to make emphasis and to make sure that our searching for Christ includes obedience to the laws and covenants of the Gospel and the magnifying of our callings and service to others.
 
The Traveler

The Scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon – I do not believe is about doctrine.  Many think that the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Gospel of the Kingdom or a fullness of the Gospel is all about doctrine.  I see all this very differently.  I have come to believe what many think of in terms of doctrine is a distraction to the Gospel.  I am more of the mind of Isaiah that defines the Gospel as the aggregate of (1) the Law, (2) the ordinances and (3) the covenants.  These three “things” describe both order and specifics of the Plan of Salvation.  They are precise and exact and there can be no variations from the correct path that must be followed by them.
Doctrine – I find to be vague, obtuse and of relative little value. – Little value except in helping to understand the Law, the Ordinances and the Covenants.  I believe it to be an apostate temptation to think and believe that the Gospel is well defined doctrine – again unless it better defines the Law, describes the order and purpose of Ordinances or provides strength in “keeping” the Commandments.
This thread is about the Atonement – I am of the mind that whatever doctrine one believes may damn them but it will not bring salvation through the atonement.  The atonement can bring salvation but only through the Law, receiving the ordinances and keeping the commandments.  Isaiah was very clear to King Ahaz – when he declared that truth is not known and cannot be known if one transgress the law, changes the ordinances or breaks the everlasting covenant.  Specifically, he said that unbelief is a transgression of the law and that if he (king Ahaz) was obedient he would believe.  Believe what? – I think the answer is - to believe truth.
 
The Traveler

I believe this is a reference to vicarious ordinance work done for the dead in the temples.
 
The Traveler

This was in the news lately, and you can Google other related articles and some from past years as well: https://www.livescience.com/61214-king-tut-dagger-outer-space.html
 

Just a thought concerning special relativity – If one could accelerate a starship with the force of gravity such that the speed would continue until the speed of light was reached and then travel to the farthest point of the universe and then return to earth – those on the starship would experience less than a week of time.  But billions of years would have passed for those that remained on earth.  If the starship was accelerated with a force 10 times gravity – the trip would be less than a day but still billions of years for those remaining on earth.
If Eden was somewhere very distant to our current solar system – say close to Kolob or where G-d dwells and if such was such distant – Adan could have been cast out of Eden to earth in less than a day but the time would have been billions of years on earth.  Perhaps there is more room than you have been willing to consider.  Maybe mortal fallen man is not capable of traveling beyond the speed of light????
 
The Traveler

Just a little observation from an old timer with a lot of experience on internet forums.  I will compare it to something I learned dating many years ago – that many dumb blonds are, in reality, smart brunets.
If you are to contribute something very intelligent with a lot of thought and value – you will not get much attention or responses – maybe some “likes”.  But if you say something incredibly stupid or obnoxious that obviously has not been intelligently thought out – not only will you get everybody’s attention but the responses will be extremely abundant and without end.
Those that garner a lot of negative responses that are not interested in attention seldom last on the internet beyond one or two exchanges.
 
The Traveler

Just a little observation from an old timer with a lot of experience on internet forums.  I will compare it to something I learned dating many years ago – that many dumb blonds are, in reality, smart brunets.
If you are to contribute something very intelligent with a lot of thought and value – you will not get much attention or responses – maybe some “likes”.  But if you say something incredibly stupid or obnoxious that obviously has not been intelligently thought out – not only will you get everybody’s attention but the responses will be extremely abundant and without end.
Those that garner a lot of negative responses that are not interested in attention seldom last on the internet beyond one or two exchanges.
 
The Traveler

Just a little observation from an old timer with a lot of experience on internet forums.  I will compare it to something I learned dating many years ago – that many dumb blonds are, in reality, smart brunets.
If you are to contribute something very intelligent with a lot of thought and value – you will not get much attention or responses – maybe some “likes”.  But if you say something incredibly stupid or obnoxious that obviously has not been intelligently thought out – not only will you get everybody’s attention but the responses will be extremely abundant and without end.
Those that garner a lot of negative responses that are not interested in attention seldom last on the internet beyond one or two exchanges.
 
The Traveler

I would be very interested in how you study any gospel topic and are able to do so without dealing with other people's opinions.  It would seem that almost always when I pray for guidance concerning a gospel topic (or for that manner any topic) that G-d introduces me to someone with ideas and opinions I have not considered to the depth that they have.  Often, I learn through dealing with “opposition”.  Very seldom do I learn much of anything from those that agree with me.   Many things I did not believe to be true at first – I have come to believe to be true by trying to prove them false.  I have had many friends and acquaintances that have experienced this phenomenon concerning the Book of Mormon.  I do not believe in bad opinions – just in poor consideration of other opinions.  The exception are opinions I have dealt with previously and gleaned or salvaged what the spirit allows or shows me.
 
The Traveler

Pollution?  Man is not adding anything to this planet that has not been an integral and essential part of this planet’s environment for millions of years.  As far as being hostile to other living organisms – 90% of extinct species had nothing to do with the existence of mankind.  Though I believe humans are an intelligent species (meaning capable of learning and correcting mistakes) – I believe humans are part of the “natural” environment and the evolutionary process of this planet.   It seems to me that not managing our resources (leaving everything to nature) is actually more devastating than poorly managing our resources as many suggest.   
For example – It appears to me that the failure to manage gender and family relationships are more of a threat to the human species (natural selection) among other things; as a trigger to inspire gluttony, waist and pollution than any other single factor threatening the continuation of human life on this planet.   As horrible as rape is in heterosexual relationships – the human species could and would survive longer if all humans were involved only in such relationships than if all of the human species were only involved in consensual homosexual relationships.
 
The Traveler

You keep saying that but you aren't backing it up with anything. Look up the very definition of "temporal" and then tell me what it has to do with "time." LOL

It has to be the probe we crashed into Jupiter – things were fine until then.  I guess you are right – Darn Republicans that would rather spend our precious monetary resources on space exploration than on the welfare needs of children.
 
The Traveler
 

I am an old guy that can remember when most homes were heated with coal than with natural gas.  The world is much better off today.  As per paved roads – I believe paved roads cause much less environmental damage (erosion) than crossing the wilderness without any pre-planning.
Also – concerning climate change – did you know that Jupiter is undergoing significant climate change and that the great storm eye (that has existed for thousands of years) that can be seen from earth is shrinking and will likely disappear within the next 5 years.  How is this possible in our same solar system and no humans there to cause it?????
 
The Traveler

I am an old guy that can remember when most homes were heated with coal than with natural gas.  The world is much better off today.  As per paved roads – I believe paved roads cause much less environmental damage (erosion) than crossing the wilderness without any pre-planning.
Also – concerning climate change – did you know that Jupiter is undergoing significant climate change and that the great storm eye (that has existed for thousands of years) that can be seen from earth is shrinking and will likely disappear within the next 5 years.  How is this possible in our same solar system and no humans there to cause it?????
 
The Traveler