Traveler

Seldom is anything in life as simple or as complex as we think it is.  In my profession I am often tasked with testing "things".  It is usually at the boundaries of the extreme where “things” break down and fail.  It is my personal opinion that we learn the most about ourselves and others at the extremes when there is failure (much more than successes) – and perhaps that is part of why we experience fallen mortality.  Sometimes I think we may over judge failure of others and worry too much of it – unless it is our own failure.
Despite the failure – I have never found anyone that enjoys being reminded of their own failures – repentance is only fun and enjoyable when we get to or make excuse to; call others to repentance.  But I am also most impressed when someone is willing to apologize.  Probably because – at least for me – it is so difficult.
 
The Traveler

I just want to express my appreciation, especially to taking a mature, respectful approach to these topics and am sorry if anything I have posted came across in a negative way.  I don't feel I need to continually keep apologizing over & over again for it, as I already have numerous times.  But,  I will say again, that I do not understand everything, but I do know that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true.  Mr Folk Prophet , I am sorry if I offended you. I really have know idea anything about you, other then that you are LDS and married, I apologize to you.  I really don't understand why so many on this thread like to be so blunt, but I really do appreciate the few that have been really kind and compassionate and what I feel a Christ-like connection with.  I know I have made some mistakes.  I know people don't usually see a need to change there ways and I can be stubborn too, but I want you all to know that I have always been and am an active LDS member and am a very serious member, I mean, you know how some members go see movies that shouldn't be seen, and tv that shoudn't be seen, and do things on Sunday, the list goes on, I am not saying I'm better than anyone, but just to give you an idea of who I am, I have never b een that way, my spouse is not that way, and our kids are not that way.  We have 4 kids, 2 with special needs, 1 very severe.  He is 17 and like a toddler mentally.  He has high energy and is everywhere, like you wouldn't believe.  The other is high functioning autistic, doing a service mission.  He is our oldest.  Born with a rare congenital heart condition and has a feeding tube and 11 food allergies.  So, I'm sorry if I come across hard sometimes.  Life isn't easy, but its ok.  Maybe if we all get to know each other better, we can be kinder and judge less. Peace brothers and sisters.

Ok, I take that back.  Sorry

Heres a thought- the amount of money one spends on a new car payment every month is enough to clothe and feed a family of four every month. 

Scripture tell us that discipline is a matter of heart, might, mind and strength.  The problem with the Pharisees was not that they were too disciplined – actually it was that they were not disciplined enough concentrating only on the outward appearances of discipline – thinking that lip service (declaration and outward presentations were enough).
On another note – last year when I visited the country of Israel, one place I found interesting was the shrine of ancient Jerusalem which is a model of Jerusalem and the temple before being destroyed by the Romans.  At the shrine the nation of Israel prepared a video of what a traditional visit to the temple was like – going all the way back to the first Temple of Solomon.  Anciently someone coming to the temple would change to a white linen covering and enter a pool where they were “washed” by emersion to be ritually cleansed and purified before bringing a sacrifice to the temple for their sins.  I also learned that this ritual washing by emersion traditionally goes back to Moses and the Tabernacle and also when Josiah brought the Israelites to the river Jordan to wash everyone before they would enter the “promised land”.  Incidentally the place Josiah brought Israel was the same place Jesus came to John for baptism.
When I visited Qumran; there were ritual places for emersion washing.  I asked the trained guide authorized specifically for Qumran if that was the purpose and I was told that it was.  The point being that at the time of Jesus there were many baptisms both at the temple and other places – but only the baptism of John was acceptable – the difference of John’s baptism is not in Biblical scripture so we cannot use the Bible as the authority for why.   This leaves the Christians of today to wonder if their baptisms are of the authority of John’s or similar ot the authority of the Levites at the temple or the priests at Qumran.
Lastly, I would point to Acts chapter 5 and Ananias and Saphira that held back in their discipline (after accepting baptism for remission of sins) thinking that a complete and total commitment was not really necessary.  I leave Acts chapter 5 as an exercise to the reader to determine if G-d expects full or partial commitment in our discipline (discipleship).
 
The Traveler

No, nobody deserves what happened to the Fancher party.  The whole thing is a blot on our past, a stain on our history.    Brigham Young was involved - he saw it coming, and tried really hard to stop it.  He failed.  
Hide what happened?  You mean by publishing the story on our church website and writing books about it?
https://www.lds.org/topics/mountain-meadows-massacre?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/topics/peace-and-violence-among-19th-century-latter-day-saints
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/150th-anniversary-of-mountain-meadows-massacre
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/interviews-with-authors-of-massacre-at-mountain-meadows
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mountain-meadows-massacre
 
Hide what happened?  You mean by funding a monument for the site?

Your mistake is in taking Rich23 seriously. He obviously had no intention of engaging in rational conversation on the topic. He's an axe-grinder. Period. He comes onto an LDS site proudly proclaiming his not-a-Mormon-any-more status, and throws down the gauntlet of Mountain Meadows, hoping to enjoy the conflagration as he throws the lit match into the powder keg.
The very best thing to do with the Rich23s of the world is to call them on their duplicity and then refuse to otherwise engage with their dishonest selves.

Do people here believe that it's okay for agitators to misrepresent history and facts in order to grind away at their personal axe? I am a current Mormon and I believe it's wrong to lie by implication.

I have often thought that family home evening was often a family feud (argument and fight) that is opened and concluded with prayer.
Maybe we should employ this method with some discussions on this forum.
 
The Traveler

I am sure there is a perfectly really nice warm place for you all in the next life!  Sorry I could not resist the temptation. 
I was working in Phoenix a few years back when the temperature reached 120.   I posted a cartoon at my desk showing two devils talking in a cave with flowing lava.  One said to the other, “It is hotter than Phoenix down here.”
 
Traveler

The thing that scares me the most is the scripture that says the righteous need not fear.
 
The Traveler

I have found tidbits of possibilities in many places.  While serving as a missionary in the Northwestern States Mission – like 50  years ago – I had a native American companion.  Long story short, he introduced me a great deal of history I would not otherwise of known.  According to ancient legend in the North West a bearded white G-d came down from the sky with many good gifts.  The native population asked him his name and he told them something they could not pronounce – but it was said to have sounded something like Yasheiah.   Since they could not pronounce his name – he was called Tacoma.   The same as the 3rd largest city in Washington.  The name they could not pronounce correctly, does seem much like the ancient Hebrew of Josiah – the prophet that followed Moses.  This is also the ancient Hebrew name that translated from the Greek is Jesus.
These little tidbits can be both interesting and inspiring but I have learned not to get excited or pronounce a particular idea I believe as true unless there is empirical evidence that directly backs up a belief – regardless of how strongly I hold it to be true.  The one exception to this a direct manifestation by the power of the Holy Ghost – neither of which I have encountered as to Book of Mormon geography in the Americas. 
There are many ancient civilizations in the Americas that we know of only through ruins that fascinate me and that I enjoy studying.  Among such ruins I believe there are evidences of Ancient Chinese, Buddhists, Crete, Phoenicians, Egypt, Vikings and even ancient Arabians (think Sinbad) – and of course the ancient Hebrews or house of Israel.   I speculate that historians may be more accurate than some LDS are willing to consider – and that there were many civilizations in the Americas not mentioned or referenced in the Book of Mormon.  I tend to believe that the ancient prophesies are true – that the Great Apostasy was as global as the ancient flood of Noah and that Israel fell and its laws, ordinances and covenants were completely lost.  That what little remained are faint references to “doctrines” scattered with its peoples throughout the gentile nations of the world – not excepting and including the gentile nations of the Americas.  I do not know of any ruin or any ancient language or people or even artifact – that we can conclusively say these are left to us of Israel – specifically the uncorrupted blood and decedents of the Lehi.
One last point – I do believe that someday an artifact will be found that empirically proves Lehi and his decedents did occupy geography in ancient America – but I have considered the possibility that when such evidence is found – that it will make little or no difference either inside or outside the communities and cultures of the Latter-day Saints.
 
The Traveler

I am sure there is a perfectly really nice warm place for you all in the next life!  Sorry I could not resist the temptation. 
I was working in Phoenix a few years back when the temperature reached 120.   I posted a cartoon at my desk showing two devils talking in a cave with flowing lava.  One said to the other, “It is hotter than Phoenix down here.”
 
Traveler

It can be a little tricky down a long 8% with  couple curves.  Basically just trying to stay under 40mph until I could see the rest of the descent.  Going up varies by the hill, though.  Sometimes it's just easier to get off and walk.

I once took our 14 to 18 year old young men on a one week 500 mile bicycle trip – with swag wagon (trailer) so they only had to peddle themselves.  We trained for 6 months but only one young man made it without resting through some segments on the swag.  Some of my young men were active in sports and thought they were already in top shape – They did not make it through the first day without resting with the swag.
I have never done the hybrid pack it thing – that must be scary off the charts on a 10% decline and a real bummer up hill into a strong wind.
BTW I ride a black, red and white Trek Madone that is worth more than my car.
 
The Traveler

This is so true!  There's such a big difference between the discipline of a coach than a teacher/professor.  I find it weird moving to the US and seeing how they run their competitive soccer leagues.  That's for sure not the way to qualify for World Cup.  They spend like 30 minutes on drills and then they play a tournament.  There's no way!
True coaching is you start from the basic building block - you train in that until you get very very proficient at it.  Then you go on to the next building block.  You add more skills as you get more proficient until eventually you get all the skills to play the sport as as a team.  So... you could spend 5 years doing nothing but footwork and ball handling before you get good enough to join the team and play a tournament.
Like - why are there so many Olympic-level Romanian gymnasts?  Because Romanian gymnastic coaches teach line-upon-line precept-upon-precept building on the elements of gymnastics until proficiency is achieved before they get sent to competition.  They could be "playing gymnastics" for 10 years before they get good enough to be given the option of joining competitive gymnastics.  This is the same with Russian ballet/dance or Serbian tennis.  They don't just shove you into competition when you have zero skills.

Ours did 120 miles in 3 days.  Florida... so... flat riding.  Unfortunately, it rained all 3 days so they rode in it.  My boy is in really great shape (competitive jiujitsu fighter) but he was one of the boys struggling to finish.  Cycling takes different muscles than jiujitsu.  What got him through was just plain grit and a refusal to give up.  Just like jiujitsu - it was not a competition between him and the other cyclists.  Rather, he was in a competition against himself.  That's what jiujitsu is - the other guy is just the road/rain/wind.  Who you're competing with is - yourself.

I am not a professional historian – but history is a hobby of mine.  I am convinced that ancient populations were not as isolated as many of us think.   I believe there is a great deal of evidence that ancients from Asia, the Mediterranean areas, Northern Europe and even the areas surrounding the Arabian Sea knew of and navigated the waterways to the Americas.
One ancient group I find most interesting were the Phoenicians (believe so named for their purple sails).  The ancient King of Phoenicia (Hiram) gifted King David with a fleet of 300 ships.  We know from Biblical accounts that these ships were sailing around Africa from the South Atlantic to the Indian Ocean and trading with India.  We have a good record of the European mariners that by the time they developed the knowledge and technology to navigate this route – within 40 years they accidently ended up in South America.   Most likely it was this knowledge and technology of the Phoenicians used by the Mulekites to reach and settle the Americas.  It is interesting to me that the major river by which the Mulekites established their capital bears the same name as the ancient capital of Phoenicia. 
If one considers the trade winds and ocean currents we can establish with relative accuracy where the most likely initial landings of the Jaredites, Nephites and Mulekites.   Never-the-less, without conclusive empirical evidence and relying strictly on subjective opinion; I believe we do more harm than good in declaring we know something that we don’t.   Doing so becomes more a tool of contention and bitterness than enlightenment and truth.
 
The Traveler

It is interesting how we define things.  Long ago when I was young and thought competition was important – it was not team sports.  When we divided up to play I was the last chosen.  I am living proof that being a winner in the popular team sports are not necessary to be happy in life.
I have competed in non-team sports.  Cycling and skiing.  I do have a bronze medal for both – competing oh so long ago, as an amateur.   I was given an opportunity to try out for the US Olympic ski team but decided to do other things with my life.  But I have learned some things from my experiences.
 There is a reason Norway is good at winter sports.  It is the same reason that during my limited competition skiing I was never beaten by someone that grew up in Florida loving the ocean.  This may come as a shock to some – but Norway and Utah have never produced an Olympic swimmer or any importance.   I honestly do not think it is because of the ribbons or trophies given out in those sports.  Grief, I do believe reporters now days will make an issue out of anything – regardless of facts or what they know of it.
Another thing I have learned about life is that there is a world of difference between a coach and a teacher or professor.   For those of you that do not know – a coach is invested in their student.  The goal of a coach is not a grade – it is to prepare you to win at competition.  Some people will never realize the difference.  I could provide thousands of examples but I will use just one.  When I was a scout master – I believed that when we went to district campouts that we should win the competitions.  So, I prepared my scouts to win.  Our best event was fire building.  The rules required that the scouts build a fire without matches and then build the fire to burn a string 2 feet off the ground.   I designed a giant bow and stick that required 6 scouts working together.  But they could start a fire and burn the string in 15 seconds.  Our closest competition ever was just under 3 minutes.   We always won and my scouts loved it – so did most other scout troops.  And the boys loved showing other scouts how to quickly build a fire.  But there were some scout troops that complained and demanded our boys be disqualified.   What I do not understand is that no one else ever build a giant bow and stick to compete with us.  I guess they had their way of doing things and anything outside their concept was unacceptable. 
There is a bicycle event called the Lotoja.  It is about 225-mile race from Logan Utah to Jackson Hole Wyoming.  It is not just a distance race but a few mountain summits to climb.   The fastest up one particular Mountain receives “The King of the Mountain” award which is as prestigious as winning the race – no one has ever won both.   This is one event that everyone that finishes within the 16-hour limit gets an award.  No one complains about this award because a lot of individuals that start are never able to finish.  I have used the Lotoja as an example of enduring to the end.  No one decides the day of to run this race will finish without training for it.  Part of training is preparation and part of preparation is training for the distance.  It is not just a matter of not giving up.  It is being in shape to ride the 225 miles.  It is knowing how to and training yourself to eat properly.  It is more than just knowing how to ride a bicycle.  It is being prepared both mentally and physically for the distance.
 
The Traveler

So bike touring 1300 miles to the starting line and deciding that morning whether I feel like trying it on a loaded touring hybrid is probably not a recipe for success?

There might have been far larger civilizations in the Americas that simply were not mentioned in the Book of Mormon narrative.
As far as the time period goes, we know only that the Jaredite nation lasted from sometime after the linguistic confusion at the tower of Babel until between about 200-600 BC. Since we don't know the date of the events at the tower of Babel, any attempt to assign a timespan to the Jaredite nation is largely conjecture. The Book of Mormon lists about thirty generations (likely a few more than that) for the kings of the Jaredites. Naively assigning 20 years to each generation suggests a timespan of only 600 years, which seems far too short, putting the events at Babel somewhere around 1000-1200 BC. By assigning a greater span to each generation and/or inserting as many generations as desired in the spaces where the record says only that So-and-so "was a descendant of" This Other Guy*, you can arbitrarily increase this span to however long you want. 2000 years (twice the Nephite nation's span) is a reasonable enough guess -- but it is only that, a guess.
*"Ether...was a descendant of Coriantor", "Aaron was a descendant of Heth", and "Morianton was a descendant of Riplakish." The first two look like they were either father-son or grandfather-grandson, since the narrative states that "A begat B".

My personal thoughts is that this civilization was greater and spread farther than people think. At this moment, I am more convinced that the narrow strip of land isn't in North America (aka United States). The narrow strip of land seems to fit with the Mesoamerica Model; however, I am more of the mind it spanned North and South America.
What this thread confirms with all religious inferences, there is always another questions, or questions, that may or may not negate what was previously thought. Like, how far did Coriantumr travel before he was found by the people of Zarahemla? If Mesoamerica is true, man Moroni sure walked a good distance before he died (dodging Lamanites along the way).
@Just_A_Guy, mentioned it was 23 days or so, if so that would make around 380 miles between two places if you are walking 2 miles an hour (Stop Math Time: if you are able to walk 2 miles in one hour, how many miles did you walk in one hour?).
At this moment, I am good with the possibility of both. The mound builders in North America are very intriguing. The new discovery of Mayan population is also very intriguing especially since one anti argument was the size of population discussed in the Book of Mormon and people saying there was never that many people on this continent, and again they stick their foot in their mouth.
But, I think I will just eat and place bets!

It is interesting how we define things.  Long ago when I was young and thought competition was important – it was not team sports.  When we divided up to play I was the last chosen.  I am living proof that being a winner in the popular team sports are not necessary to be happy in life.
I have competed in non-team sports.  Cycling and skiing.  I do have a bronze medal for both – competing oh so long ago, as an amateur.   I was given an opportunity to try out for the US Olympic ski team but decided to do other things with my life.  But I have learned some things from my experiences.
 There is a reason Norway is good at winter sports.  It is the same reason that during my limited competition skiing I was never beaten by someone that grew up in Florida loving the ocean.  This may come as a shock to some – but Norway and Utah have never produced an Olympic swimmer or any importance.   I honestly do not think it is because of the ribbons or trophies given out in those sports.  Grief, I do believe reporters now days will make an issue out of anything – regardless of facts or what they know of it.
Another thing I have learned about life is that there is a world of difference between a coach and a teacher or professor.   For those of you that do not know – a coach is invested in their student.  The goal of a coach is not a grade – it is to prepare you to win at competition.  Some people will never realize the difference.  I could provide thousands of examples but I will use just one.  When I was a scout master – I believed that when we went to district campouts that we should win the competitions.  So, I prepared my scouts to win.  Our best event was fire building.  The rules required that the scouts build a fire without matches and then build the fire to burn a string 2 feet off the ground.   I designed a giant bow and stick that required 6 scouts working together.  But they could start a fire and burn the string in 15 seconds.  Our closest competition ever was just under 3 minutes.   We always won and my scouts loved it – so did most other scout troops.  And the boys loved showing other scouts how to quickly build a fire.  But there were some scout troops that complained and demanded our boys be disqualified.   What I do not understand is that no one else ever build a giant bow and stick to compete with us.  I guess they had their way of doing things and anything outside their concept was unacceptable. 
There is a bicycle event called the Lotoja.  It is about 225-mile race from Logan Utah to Jackson Hole Wyoming.  It is not just a distance race but a few mountain summits to climb.   The fastest up one particular Mountain receives “The King of the Mountain” award which is as prestigious as winning the race – no one has ever won both.   This is one event that everyone that finishes within the 16-hour limit gets an award.  No one complains about this award because a lot of individuals that start are never able to finish.  I have used the Lotoja as an example of enduring to the end.  No one decides the day of to run this race will finish without training for it.  Part of training is preparation and part of preparation is training for the distance.  It is not just a matter of not giving up.  It is being in shape to ride the 225 miles.  It is knowing how to and training yourself to eat properly.  It is more than just knowing how to ride a bicycle.  It is being prepared both mentally and physically for the distance.
 
The Traveler

As I read this thread – I am beginning to wonder if the most harmful misconceptions about Mormons are those that we perpetrate among ourselves.
 
The Traveler
 
 

It's funny the way the Battle Flag of Virginia (otherwise known as the Confederate Flag these days) has gotten the reputation it has.  It's message has changed to a degree.
Yes, I suppose, even back in the day it was partly due to the rebellious spirit of the South, but it also showed pride.  By waving the flag it showed that though defeated, the South was still proud of it's ancestors and it's history.  That though beaten, they still felt they were equals with the North.  It sprang out of those who felt that the North tried to shame those who were from the South to being ashamed of being born in the South and growing up in the South.  Instead of bowing to this shame, they felt they needed to show that they were proud of where they grew up.  Thus, it was a symbol of Southern pride, to say that one need not be ashamed of growing up Southern. 
It was utilized as a racist symbol by some (especially the KKK), but it was also used by a LOT more than simply those that were racist.  It was a symbol of rebelliousness, but not that of rebelling against a nation, but that of rebelling against being shamed for simply existing.  Thus the flag was used by a LOT of people in the South who had no racist agenda or belief, but rather to show that they could gather under this banner to show that they were NOT ashamed of existing.  That they were proud to be Southern. 
Today, it seems most of that is forgotten and instead it is seen as a symbol of racism.  I acknowledge that due to the usage of some racist groups, this is a picture that has grown around the flag in stronger and stronger association.  It is unfortunate though that the rest of the reasons of why this particular flag got so popular among those in the South and from the South have forgotten why this was.
My cousins were proud of their Southern heritage and had this flag flying at their home at times.  I do not see them as being racist, but they were proud of that they were part of the South.  Of course, this was many decades ago and life has changed, but it seems perceptions surrounding this flag has also changed tremendously from when they and I were younger.
As it has developed today, I can understand why many are offended by it being flown.  I can also see why many perceive it as a symbol of racism and hatred.  I understand why such changes to state flags and other arenas have been done, and why it should not be flown anymore, but I find it a little regrettable that some of the other reasons people had for flying it years ago seem to have been forgotten.
I think it is the difference that we see with Gone with the Wind.  One of my mother's favorite movies was Gone with the Wind.  When she watched it, it wasn't about the racist ideas that many see in it today, but about the idea of persevering and the realization of the Southern character in finding out what was important in life, and the things you deal with.  Many today, when looking at Gone with the Wind only see racism and false identity. 
It's a difference of generations and the passing of time I suppose in the perceptions of the past and how that past is reflected upon our present.