Misshalfway

If you read the wording in 3rd Nephi, it always says "disciples". I think it is fair to say that these 12 were special witnesses for their people. But I believe their jurisdiction was confined to their location. They were not apostles to the world as Peter and the original 12 were and as the 12 apostles are today. And I assume they were under the direction of the 12 in jerusalem. Although I'm not sure they could really communicate. :)

Welcome to the forums. It's nice to meet you. Well, you aren't the only one whose struggled with these feelings. In fact there was another thread about almost the exact same thing. I think that I can understand a little of what might be bothering you. If I may....I'd like to ask a little more about exactly what bothers you. Is it that you feel your sexual relationship is somehow tainted or are you worried that he might compare you to someone else? One thing I know for sure, we all are broken in some way. We all have sins that need the help of Jesus Christ. I wish that all of us would enter marriage with a perfect law of chastity record. But many of us don't. Some of us marry someone whose been married before and is experienced that way. I don't know. We tell ourselves that we need to have that perfect story to be happy. And the truth is that none of us really gets the perfect story. Unless of course we change the way we define it. If we really believe in the Atonement then our scarlet sins becomes white as lambs wool and the Lord remembers them no more. What could be a more beautiful story than two people who understand that first hand and who enter marriage with that testimony. Mourn the loss of what you hoped your marriage would be. And then be grateful for what you are getting. All is well. But it sounds like you need to learn how to forgive your fiance before you can fully realize that.

Howdy. Welcome to the forums.

On your #2....I was always taught that the 12 in America were disciples, not apostles because there can't be two sets of 12 apostles on the earth at the same time. I suppose that means they didn't have the apostolic keys. but I guess I thought they have some keys. On #3. That is surprising. 1992. I thought it was much earlier. I remember my father teaching me this when I was a wee tot. When/what/how was it made official in 1992? Clearly I missed it.

Ok. I'm hoping Skippy comes back. I'd love to hear his thoughts on this.

I think missionaries are a good option. Not the only option. But I think you have to listen to your gut and listen to the spirit. You'll be led. The missionaries are there if you feel you'd like to use them.

I actually love this sister. I'll stop calling her "poo face" I'm not as bent about the whole thing. And I actually value her talents and her go-getter-ness. In talking to her, I think she realizes a little that she oversteps sometimes. It's been a little rocky here the last couple of weeks, but I'm hoping things will equalize. I can see how I can improve. I don't think I'm the easiest companion. I've been very busy finishing graduate school and I'm not as "active" as I have been in younger years. I'm sure I can do more to help her trust my contributions too.

I know. You need a revolving door for all the kids....and then for all their hungry friends too. :)

I cried through the whole Sunday AM session too. Only I was home and cuddled up with my kids and the dog.

I agree with a lot of what has been said. I think there is a way to both meet the needs of the family (if indeed the children are hungry) AND teach the children limits and manners. Saying no to the treat giving isn't saying no to helping the family. I don't think you should let their "need" make you feel guilty about saying no.

I speak English, hick, and a little valley girl.

Sorry....About how women in the RS emasculate men. This is what I said to you in my last post...

Ok. Do unto others.... But that still doesn't answer my question.

Way to go against the whole marketing machine. I actually felt pretty great about the whole santa thing until I saw this documentary on the history of christmas and how the legend, image, story of santa was changed so that merchants could sell stuff. I really wanted to stay thinking that everybody just loved the altruistic nature of the whole thing and that keeping it was a sign of our better nature. The air has officially left my balloon. Although, I'm fighting to blow it back up again. :)

I read this and wanted to comment "amen" all over the place. :) I think your first paragraph about girls keeping the boys in line hits home for me a lot. At least it's something I've experienced a great deal in the church and in the world. It feels like some men, sometimes, disown their power and responsibility either by making women angels or devils. If you do this to a woman, either way you have something to blame and it let's you off the hook. In this way, I believe that men are emasculating themselves. And women are put in a really hard place. We can't make mistakes and we can't be perfect enough. I appreciate this because it highlights at least one behavior that seems to be problematic. Being critical hurts. It hurts when women do it in private and it is especially problematic if done in public in RS. Am I getting that right, Vort? And what you are saying is that you'd like the women to learn a better way. I would agree that such a critical, perfectionistic way would be damaging to a man's sense of self. But I'd say that such is damaging to anyone! I guess I'm still missing what specifically makes this an emasculating behavior. I guess I can see how it could be..... I do feel to say that women are vocal about their concerns. We tend to vent about stuff. It's the currency of how women get support from each other. So, what might feel like a criticism to you in RS might just be a woman talking about her concerns. But what I'm hearing is that it can really be painful and damaging and women need to protect their men and sons by watching their tongues. If I might, how would men prefer to be corrected? If boys come to the church house unprepared, don't they have to deal with the fall out just like anyone who comes unprepared? If I teach math, and I say there is a quiz and dude A comes unprepared, am I damaging his manhood if I say "tough noogies. you should have studied."? I guess this relates to my concern listed above. I feel like women are expected to protect men's feelings at all costs. But that renders us rather impotent, forgive the term. When men are behaving badly.....regardless of what it is (and I mean badly, not just different than some expectation set)....how would you suggest women handle it? It seems like walking a tightrope even under the best of circumstances. I guess I want to raise my boys to deal with a little female scrutiny and to not be so daunted if they see an unpleasant emotional response in women. It doesn't mean "you suck" if she is upset about something. It just means she's hurting and she wants you to know so you can be her hero and make it better.

Yeah. I get what you are saying. Loving others involves a whole spectrum of attributes and actions that hopefully includes the view that we all are children of God. And I also appreciate that we must cultivate a righteous judgment. I like the word "discernment" as I try to conceptualize what a righteous judgment means. It helps me differentiate righteous evaluations from the lesser "judgy-ness" that humans are so good at. Yes. I know what he was asking for. How do we love the sinner? Especially when he/she appears to be a turn-coat or a hypocrite. And how to we love them when the trespass against us? It's hard! And I don't disagree that sometimes we need strategies to help us soften our hearts or rise to higher ways of compassion and forgiveness. Maybe it was just the "getting baptized" imagery that rubbed me the wrong way. I mean, what if the person doesn't choose that? What if their path to Jesus doesn't follow the picture in our minds? Don't we just delay our unrighteous judgments? Makes me wonder if such an idea actually produces charity, considering that charity is partly about long-suffering and tolerance and meekness. I mean, we CAN'T change people. We can't make them prettier or more righteous. We have to learn how to love them as they are in the now. It's one of the things Jesus was trying to teach when he went amongst the lepers. They loved him because his love wasn't deterred by their leprosy. Doesn't mean Jesus didn't see their needs for healing. Just means he sees past what he sees. I'm not sure I completely agree with this. Sometimes you have to forgive without having clarity on a person and sometimes you have to forgive them for who they aren't. I appreciate that. I don't mean to take anything away from something that has helped you. I generally respect what you share about your world view and from what you say, I certainly have a fond respect of your wife. I guess what I really am saying is that I've had the experience of people "loving me this way". It feels a lot like pity. It feels a lot like they can't deal with my "leprosy". And that hurts. Even if I'm one of those who is hard to love some days. What I know is that my heart, in these situations, has longed for a more refined response from my fellow brothers and sisters. One that feels more like Jesus. One that isn't so afraid. I know. I long for a better world. :) And I know I can't have that yet.

And what are those "right messages" in your view?

Hi Angel333. I can't imagine what this has been like for you. I'm reading this and thinking of Elder Eyring's Sunday morning conference talk where he spoke of trials that sometimes last a lifetime. I cried when he talked about that. And my heart is crying for you and your son. It sounds like your son has lost his strength. I pray that he can find it again. That the people around him help to cut through the layers of denials and lies. I pray that you can find your strength so that you can go the distance and so that your influence will be one that creates opportunities for change. How are you doing? How strong is your support system and your relationship to God? I don't know that God always "saves" us from life, but I do know that he makes our burdens lighter. I'm wondering if tapping into that process of how God equalizes our abilities with our challenges is something that could help you just now. Blessings to you, my dear. May angels surround you on your right and on your left and help to bear both you and your son up at this very difficult time.

Ok. I'm gonna say that the original post was a little hard to understand. But it appears that your daughter is a candidate for church discipline but the way that the whole thing is being handled is causing you stress. It sounds like the bishop is slow or that he isn't communicating very well. And it sounds like other people in the ward have somehow become aware of the situation and are making unkind/judgmental remarks that hurt both you and your daughter. I'm I getting this straight? Whatever has happened, I hope that both you and your daughter can put your faith where in belongs....into the love of God and Atonement of Jesus Christ. People are just so imperfect. They botch church courts and they say really insensitive things sometimes. But the Lord IS the sure foundation. I hope you can find a way to trust the process of repentance while forgiving those around you. Best wishes and much healing to you both.

I couldn't improve on what's been said. Go. See the bishop. It won't be nearly as bad as you are imagining. I was thinking too. You want to serve a mission, right? Well, in order to get clearance to apply, you have to go through interviews. And they WILL ask you about your sexual history. So, you might as well just bite the bullet, don't you think? Also, what do you think we share as missionaries? It's the good news, right? The good news that all people everywhere can be cleansed from sin though the atonement, right? Just think of how much stronger your testimony will be when you can add some more personal experience with the Atonement. :) Everybody feels fear. And most of us need help overcoming it. How comforting your smiling face will be as you teach them the very things you are learning now. But...maybe you think that message is for other people. Just GO! Get yourself to the peace. And come back and tell us how it went.

Well....you could start by not being "justamereboy" anymore. I know this is blunt, but your whole post sounds unempowered. It's like you are frozen and afraid to move. You even plead with God to fix it for you so you don't have to make your choices and deal with the situation. I appreciate that prayer is great thing and that God does help. But my experience with God is that He doesn't do my work for me. I guess what I'm saying is that at some point growing up means making autonomous choices. And sometimes that means dealing with parents who don't offer support or approval. I think back on a few times when I had to tell my parents that I would be going in a different direction. It was rocky for the first few moments, but my parents learned to let go and respect my decisions. I can't know what kind of relationship you have with your parents. But it sounds like to me that it's time for you to start being your own man. I think it's time for you to grow up and to not only pray in faith, but learn how to make choices in faith as well. One more thing....are you talking to your parents? I always think these situations become easier when both parties are talking about their concerns/feelings/fears with each other and listening to each other too. Listening is so important on both sides! When we share and listen to others, it doesn't mean we'll change our course. But it does help preserve the relationship while we do.

Of course. Respect. Yes. But help me here. I see emasculating men as a more specific example of disrespect. I guess I'm trying to understand exactly what behaviors RS might be doing (either knowingly or unknowingly) that may emasculate. When the men aren't being great....is it the disapproval that emasculates? Help me understand.

At the end of the day, it really is about loving people for who they are and to stop judging. If we have to picture someone "in white clothes walking into the waters of baptism" I'm not sure that's any different than judging them and I'm not sure it's any closer to charity. It's loving them as we wish they were....as something that makes us more comfortable. We are all in process. I think God is trying to teach us how to love each other no matter where we all are at in that process.

Amen and Amen and Amen and Amen.........

I can testify that God will stop you! Well, at least He stops me. He pulls me away from certain ideas or paths and he course corrects me. And He doesn't just do it once at the beginning of the journey. He stays with me just like the pillars of fire and smoke he gave to the Israelites while they journeyed. And I love your determination to trust! Yes! This is the heart of faith. The knowing will come. It does come. And the faith really does sustain us until it comes. No...the church isn't perfect. I don't think it's meant to be. It's "humaness" is the perfect laboratory for tests of faith. How would we learn to forgive, for example, if no one ever transgressed against us? There is opposition in ALL things. Even in and especially in the church. Imperfection is on the one side and the Atonement on the other. Everything is as it should be. Isn't that a great thing?