Taxing the rich

[Traveler]

There is an old saying – how do you know when a politician is lying? The answer is that you know a politician is lying when their lips are moving. I will now state that I do not support any candidate for president from either the Republican or Democratic Party. This post is not intended to advance or distract either candidate. I just want to address a political lie that has troubled and deceived many in this country for several generations.

I believe that all citizens should be taxed. No citizen or group of citizens should be expected or required to sacrifice more for their country than others. But there is the idea that even though our country is 150 years old – that in order to survive and continue as a strong country we must change what made us strong (which always means add to) programs and in order to fund the changes we must increase the taxes. Since no one wants their taxes to increase – let us pick on the nations smallest and most hated minority – the rich.

I would like to point out some reasons why this is a lie. First, whenever this is proposed by a politician it is always proposed by someone that is part of the privileged “rich” class. I find that rather odd. The next thing we discover is that the rich persons purposing that we tax the rich is also surrounded and supported by many more “rich”. In fact they seem to fill their election coffers with so much of the rich stuff (often hundreds of millions of dollars) that they could do much to solve the problem with that money. But they do not want to use their money. If they did they would have done something already with their money and likely solved the problem.

Why would the rich support candidates and politics that would increase their taxes for causes they do not contribute that much of their own money currently? The answer my friends is that the whole tax the rich is a bold face lie. Always – and I mean always there are “loop holes” created for and by the rich (including the rich supporters of the rich) to avoid the increase in taxes. Instead the tax is intended for the middle class. The result is that the middle class is shrinking and that the disparity between rich and poor is growing.

If a program is worth while it should be paid for by every citizen. Should the rich pay more taxes – yes, of course but they won’t. They will buy of politicians and use their resources for their benefit. Is this a shock?

The USA is a government, of the people, for the people and by the people. An oppressive government is one that divides its people such that the benefits of some are paid for by others. Every government program should be contributed to by every citizen. No one should have a free ride. A person that cannot, has not, and will not contribute of their own should not be considered or thought of as a citizen or patriot. If a program is not of enough value to you that you are willing to raise you taxes – do not pretend you support it. It makes you as much a liar and more than the politicians that you hate in the other party.

The Traveler

[Jbs2763]

the richest 3% pays 97% of the taxes,

im far from rich and pay 30%, it could go up to 70%

i aint gonna work if that happens

[Palerider]

The politics in this country is messed up and I don't see it getting better regardless of who is elected....before long there will only be 2 classes and that will be the poor and the wealthy....middle class will be gone...

[ruthiechan]

Anyone can learn the loopholes, but most people are not inclined to do so.

However, I do largely agree with you. All it does is increase the taxes for some poor sod whose income bracket increases.

I believe that taxes as they are should be written off as a bad idea and institute a new tax law that all income, individual and company, are taxable by 10%. Then it's fair. If you make a $100 you only pay $10, if you make a 1,000,000 (million), you pay 100,000. Then we'd have all the money we need for the various government programs.

[prisonchaplain]

Ruthie, I largely agree...though I would go for the flat tax that Forbes proposed many years ago. 17%, with rather hefty personal exemptions, such that the unemployed and working poor would pay nothing. It's a no-go because we're addicted to mortgage interest deductions, and the rich do like their loopholes. But, we can always dream.

[StrawberryFields]

What is considered rich anymore?

I would gladly take a flat rate of 17% and they can take away my mortgages interest tax deductions.

[skalenfehl]

We're talking about a symptom here when the real problem is that our tax money actually goes where it is supposed to. Does every penny on our tax dollar really go where it's supposed to? Think about it. The problem that first needs to be solved is to get rid of corrupt spending and "government borrowing" and then we can work on a fair tax system so that precious tax dollars are not wasted.

[ruthiechan]

Ruthie, I largely agree...though I would go for the flat tax that Forbes proposed many years ago. 17%, with rather hefty personal exemptions, such that the unemployed and working poor would pay nothing. It's a no-go because we're addicted to mortgage interest deductions, and the rich do like their loopholes. But, we can always dream.

I disagree about the working poor. I used to be one of those working poor and I could handle 10%. But now that I am not the working poor (well, now that my husband makes 35K a year) it's up to 30%! And I'm like duuuuuuuuude, not right. And I know that if he were to get a sufficient enough raise to bump him to the next income bracket he'll be paying more taxes. It's ridiculous.

Another thought is that people would try to hide how much they actually made so they could stay in the working poor category. >.<

Though, you know, if you're unemployed you have no income to tax sooooo, how could you pay taxes?

[skalenfehl]

Good points, fent. Taxing the rich simply doesn't work. The wealthy (big corporations) will always benefit from tax breaks and subsidies at government's expense and pass the bill on to us.

[Jbs2763]

and you figure, when they get taxed enough..they just go somewhere else....and lay everyone off

whirpoool

GM

converse

elextroclux

rca

and every other compnay that was in small town america

[prisonchaplain]

Find out for yourself how the Forbes flat tax plan would help or hurt your taxes:

Flat Tax Calculator -- FreedomWorks.org

(BTW, this is not a political endorsement...this plan has been off the table for many years). Also, I think our family actually pays less with our current system, but the difference is negligible.

[Moksha]

Always – and I mean always there are “loop holes” created for and by the rich (including the rich supporters of the rich) to avoid the increase in taxes.

The Traveler

I see you are familiar with Utah politics.

[kona0197]

Traveler - This country is far over 150 years old.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

I agree with the Flat Tax. Imagine if the Government implimented the Flat Tax and required 10 percent of everyone's income. If you think about it, a person who makes 15K a year would only be taxed on 10 percent of that = 1,500.00 would be the tax that this person would have to pay. As opposed to this, a person whose per annum income is 5.5 mil a year would pay a flat ten percent tax of 550,000 dollars. No tax breaks, no tax shelters. A simple flat tax that would go to the government for Education, Transportation and Charitable organizations.

[Jbs2763]

how does the rich not pay tax on their income????? if its sitting in a bank earining interest, true they don't pay tax, but when they pull it out, they are taxed, unless the money they are pulling is from a Roth, and they havent been around long enough to have made enough money to live off of.

well over 90% of the "rich" people in america got rich the same way...and its a dirty 4 letter word to alot of "rich haters" WORK i work my tail off for the money I earn..and it boils my backside that there is SOO SOO SOO much waste, we to have MASSIVE govt. reform, MASSIVE welfare reform, AND MASSIVE MASSIVE MASSIVE social seciurty reform. i'm tired of well over 30% of my paycheck going to our government that does so well with money.

okay, im done ranting for the moment

[Fiannan]

A simple flat tax that would go to the government for Education, Transportation and Charitable organizations.

Education is mainly financed at the local level, not the federal level.

The ultimate duties of government are to maintain the military to protect us from outside threats, police to protect us from each other and basic infrastructure to maintain a strong economy. Beyond that...

Also, a flat tax would be bad for families. Currently you can deduct taxes on each person in your family -- seems unfair at first if you consider that an upper class DINK couple or single person pays more than a family with four kids but those kids will grow up and be taxpayers as well as maintain the culture. Society has a vested interest to support families and if that means drones pay more then so be it. Without families you have no nation or culture so it's as important, if not more important, than financing the military.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Fiannan

[miztrniceguy]

for most of my working life, 25+ yrs, i have been against income tax and for consumption tax. tax everything at 10%, exempt food staples (not twinkies and evian) and college tuition.

you are not penalized for savings or investing. if you are thrifty and save then you don't pay. when you buy a big fancy house car or boat you pay 10%.

no tax breaks, irs salaries spent on better things.

[skalenfehl]

Jbs, it's called tax shelters, subsidies, corporate expenses, etc. Fent hit the nail right on the head. There are plenty of legal strategies to avoid paying taxes when there are enough deductible expenses that relate to your business when you own a business. You have to be a business owner to truly understand and appreciate it, even if on a small scale.

For example, wherever I drive my company truck, I make sure that it coincides with my work so that my miles become deductions. This way my company covers it all instead of me personally. This is just one tiny example. Does this make sense now? That is the beauty of setting up a corporation and a business. Anyone can do it, including you. The system was designed this way. The backbone of the economy arguably is the small business owner. So if you work as a landscaper, why not start your own small landscaping company? If your hobby is photography, start a small business with a studio in your home etc. Then you can make part of your home a business expense. Start using the system to your advantage. The entrepreneurial spirit is the American dream.

Edited July 14, 2008 by skalenfehl

[hordak]

I agree with the Flat Tax. Imagine if the Government implimented the Flat Tax and required 10 percent of everyone's income. If you think about it, a person who makes 15K a year would only be taxed on 10 percent of that = 1,500.00 would be the tax that this person would have to pay. As opposed to this, a person whose per annum income is 5.5 mil a year would pay a flat ten percent tax of 550,000 dollars. No tax breaks, no tax shelters. A simple flat Education, Transportation and Charitable organizations.

$550,000 taken from the income of a multimillionaire means no lamborghini in the garage.

1,500 taken from the income of someone who make 15k a year could mean no car period.

Nothing wrong with the millionaire having nice car but if they set it to high it could really hurt those at the bottom.

tax that would go to the government for Charitable organizations.

Wouldn't that be an oxymoron

[Guest HEthePrimate]

I know, it's just horrible how the rich are being oppressed in this country. First, the government has the gall to require them to pay taxes. Then, to add insult to injury, the general public hates the rich because they're jealous of them. We all know how rich people like Oprah Winfrey, Steve Jobs, Martha Stewart, Mitt Romney, and various other sports figures, movie stars, musicians, and celebrities are despised by the "Average Joe."

We need to teach those freeloading poor people a lesson, and raise their taxes! Wealthy of the world, unite!

HE the Primate

[bytor2112]

When I go to dinner with Bill Gates he should definitely pick up the bill or at least pay more for his than me??????? Big Coorporations are owned buy there share holders.... people like you and me. Who determines who is rich and why should they pay even more. They already pay the lions share of taxes.

Today, the rich pay more, the poor pay less. Bush tax rate cuts notwithstanding, those with high incomes pay at much higher marginal tax rates than those with lower incomes. They also pay much more of the total tax bill, a reality that has escaped Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. Only 953,000 taxpayers – about 1 percent of the total who paid taxes – paid at the top 35 percent tax rate in 2005. They paid $315.4 billion in taxes on their $1,094 billion in income.

The most common tax rate is 15 percent, which is paid by 54.4 million taxpayers. This means the typical taxpayer pays at less than half the tax rate of the top earners.

The second most common tax rate is 10 percent. About 25.5 million taxpayers pay at that rate. This group pays taxes at one-third the rate paid by the highest-income taxpayers. So of the two-thirds of all households that pay anything in income taxes, about three-quarters pay at 15 percent or less.

Among the remaining 25 percent of taxpayers:

• 22 million households pay income taxes at marginal rates of 25 percent.

• 3.7 million pay at 28 percent.

• 1.5 million pay at 33 percent.

In 2000, the top 25 percent of all taxpaying filers paid a whopping 83.6 percent of all income taxes. By 2005, they paid 85.6 percent of all taxes. So in spite of tax rate cuts for the well-off, the share of taxes paid by the well-off has risen.

What does this all mean?

Simple. When political talk turns to tax "fairness," none of the candidates mentions where a high income begins. So I thought you might want to know. You were in the top 25 percent of taxpayers in 2005 if your taxable income exceeded $61,055.

Millions of Americans have no idea what fat cats they are.

[Guest HEthePrimate]

I weep at the injustice of it all! How dare the government force the rich to pay more taxes than the poor? O, woe is us!

How can I in good conscience sleep at night knowing that someone who makes 50 times as much money as I do has to pay a higher percentage in taxes?

[Misshalfway]

I'm tellin' ya. Everybody should pay taxes like we pay tithing. Everybody pays 10 %. Easy, short, and equitable for all.

[ruthiechan]

I am thinking that maybe fent has the right of it.

My idea was very much like the tithing idea, but maybe I'm mistaken.

[tefor]

The backbone of the economy arguably is the small business owner. So if you work as a landscaper, why not start your own small landscaping company? If your hobby is photography, start a small business with a studio in your home etc. Then you can make part of your home a business expense. Start using the system to your advantage. The entrepreneurial spirit is the American dream.

I'd like some more information on starting a home business. My only concern is that I'm not quite sure what talents I have that would have any value in the marketplace--I like to read and I'm pretty good at making comments in Gospel Doctrine and Elders' Quorum, but that's about it. Do you know of any resources to help people figure out what their strengths and talents are and how to cash in on them?