Did the womens movement kill the family unit?

[Mullenite]

Revisionist history is a wonderful thing, you can twist it to make any point you want, but real history is in statistics, like crime rate, graduation rate, murder and suicide rate, all have gone up since the 50's and 60's. The children are defiantly not better off than they were then. By the way, most children today are not out playing in the neighborhood because crime is to the point where they have to be watched constantly. Given the choice I am sure most working mothers would love to quit their jobs and spend more time with their children, but are not in a financial position to do so. Instead they work full time, then come home and clean their houses, do laundry, pay bills, prepare meals, help with homework, and do the other hundred things that need to be done on a daily basis. Anyone who thinks work is liberating must do a very different kind of work than I do, because mine is just the opposite. The government on the other hand is now raking in nearly twice the income taxes that they were when the family relied on one paycheck. The bottom line is that children get their since of self worth from their parents. When they are delegated to something less important than a job or a lifestyle they know it and it negatively affects them.

[hordak]

I think a lot of that depends on the doctor and your pregnancy. I wasn't even allowed to drive until 6 weeks after my csection. Much less go to work, my doctor literally wouldn't give me the clearance for it until 7 weeks after my son was born and even then I was put on restrictions. Not that it really mattered as I didn't return to my workplace anyway.

Did that have something to do with air bags? I seem to remember the Doc saying something like that to my wife.

[pam]

It doesn't take 6 weeks to recoup from surgery.At least cesarean, i don't have any natural born kids.Breast feeding isn't necessary, preferential but not necessary.

That being said i have on problem with giving women paternity leave.I think it is very important. But getting the same salary while taking more time off because they choose to have kids in not right.

Hordak have you EVER had a baby? Quite nice to hear it doesn't take 6 weeks from someone that has NEVER had a baby.

[Jenamarie]

It doesn't take 6 weeks to recoup from surgery.At least cesarean, i don't have any natural born kids.Breast feeding isn't necessary, preferential but not necessary.

That being said i have on problem with giving women paternity leave.I think it is very important. But getting the same salary while taking more time off because they choose to have kids in not right.

Have you ever had a c-section? It is MAJOR ABDOMINAL SURGURY. It DOES sometimes take 6 weeks to recoup from that, especially if complications occur (such as an infection in the incision). It was a month after my c/s before I could sneeze without feeling like I was going to burst open, and two weeks before I could walk normally without heavy medication.

Would you also agree with an employer denying equal pay to a childless co-worker taking time off to care for a terminally ill parent? They're not putting in as much work as the others, and it's a "choice" since they could leave the parent in the care of a hospital, but should an employee really be expected to chose between work or family when it comes to making a living and bringing home enough money? Does EVERYTHING in life have to be "fair"?

[kishtakaye]

Well for me, I was a teenage mother, I had my first child before i turned sixteen. And yes life was very hard and i am very very thankful for those women who stood up for us so that we could support ourselves. If it were not for those women i would not have been able to take care of my daughter.

No the womens movement did not kill the family unit the government and the economy through did greed by raising taxes and prices so that the singleincome family could no longer survive. And by taking that last parent out of the home we have created a disfunctional society. Just look at the children who are going to lead us they have very little if any work ethic. They have no self respect or respect for others. They have no or very little disipline because the government has removed it, and taken away the parents authority, so now some parents are afraid to disipline due to a fear of being accused of child abuse. And without disipline the crime level has risen and we are afraid to let our children out of our sight.

Whew were did that come from sorry I'm not looking to offend anyone

Edited July 29, 2008 by kishtakaye
can't spell

[funkymonkey]

I for one am very thankful for the women's movement.

I don't think God thought that it was right for women to be beat bloody by their spouses as "punishment", or that women had to submit to sex whenever their husband demanded, etc. If the man had an affair, it was his wife's fault and she was required to look the other way. Young girls were repeatedly molested by their uncles, fathers, grandfathers, etc, with no consequence. Women were not entitled to child support or any other kind of support if their husbands left them. The men that ruled society were not men of God and were not about to ease up their awesome deal going, and keeping women under their thumb.

I don't think God wanted women to be used and valued only as a spectacle of objectivity for men. We are his daughters. Would anyone want their own daughters treated this way?

Supression of women's rights stems all the way back to the beginning of time.

There is a book written by and lds author called "Eve and the Choice Made In Eden"

It's pretty interesting, and I think a "must read" for all women and men in search of information of gender-roles and God's plan. It really helped me understand just how women fit into God's plan of salvation...and it also explains how women came to be sub-citizens.

It is 2008 and women still get paid 70 cents to the dollar. Coming from a single-parent home (dad ran off with a younger woman) my mom provided for 5 kids, being paid equally would have made a huge difference for us...a difference between a two bedroom place and a three bedroom place.

If I am doing the same work as a male coworker, I should be paid equally. It doesn't matter if I have equipment to bare children or not. I do the work, I should be paid equally.

[VisionOfLehi]

Absolutely.

I don't think it's right that I might get paid MORE for the same amount of work.

[kona0197]

I think women had no choice but to seek employment and help pay the bills. The world got expensive.

[Misshalfway]

Their are benefits to the women's movement. I think the movement liberated men as well. I think men are more involved fathers. At least the ones that I know. How many times do I go to the park or the mall and see a dad there pushing the old stroller. My H loves to be involved in every aspect of childcare and it is wonderful! His father wouldn't touch a diaper or a vacuum. I love having the blending of the roles in our home. I think it helps us learn to work together and helps our kids see beyond rigidity and into possibility and the benefits of seeing and acting outside of the box. I even have seen families where the father is staying home while the mother brings home the bacon. When at any other time could that be seen as an option?

[kona0197]

It is 2008 and women still get paid 70 cents to the dollar. Coming from a single-parent home (dad ran off with a younger woman) my mom provided for 5 kids, being paid equally would have made a huge difference for us...a difference between a two bedroom place and a three bedroom place.

If I am doing the same work as a male coworker, I should be paid equally. It doesn't matter if I have equipment to bare children or not. I do the work, I should be paid equally.

At Walmart the ladies make the same wage as I do. Sometimes more. You telling me that they get taxed more?

[Jenamarie]

I read an interesting article (wish I could remember *where) that discussed how the unequality in pay is in part caused by *women*. When an employer offers a job to a woman, and tells her what the pay is, she's more likely to accept that pay as is, whereas most men see that as a starting off point for negotiating, and usually manage to negotiate a higher wage. So even if a man and a woman are doing the exact same work, the man is getting paid more because he negotiated while the woman didn't, even though the company's INITIAL offer for wages was equal for both. Men are also more likely to negotiate for higher pay even after they've been hired, while women are more likely to wait for the requisite "cost of living" pay raises, etc.

I know *I* certainly didn't know that wages could be negotiated until I read that article, and my DH looked at me like I had two heads when I told him that.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Jenamarie

[Elphaba]

Well for me, I was a teenage mother, I had my first child before i turned sixteen. And yes life was very hard and i am very very thankful for those women who stood up for us so that we could support ourselves. If it were not for those women i would not have been able to take care of my daughter.

No the womens movement did not kill the family unit the government and the economy through did greed by raising taxes and prices so that the singleincome family could no longer survive. And by taking that last parent out of the home we have created a disfunctional society. Just look at the children who are going to lead us they have very little if any work ethic. They have no self respect or respect for others. They have no or very little disipline because the government has removed it, and taken away the parents authority, so now some parents are afraid to disipline due to a fear of being accused of child abuse. And without disipline the crime level has risen and we are afraid to let our children out of our sight.

Whew were did that come from sorry I'm not looking to offend anyone

I was really, truly moved by your story about having a baby when you were so young and the women who helped you. Obviously, you're very intelligent and I sense a strong will that probably has served you well. Of course, I don't know you. So, let's just say I really liked your post.

However, I disagree with two of your comments: 1)The crime rate is raising: Actually the crime rate has decreased dramatically, and index crimes (theft, burglary, car theft), are at the levels they were in the 1980s.

2) I do not agree the government has made it harder to be a parent. I think flawed human beings, with very good intentions, have made huge mistakes that have had drastic consequences.

However, I believe the government's policies have also saved countless children from violent homes where unspeakable things are done to them. And this is because of the women's movements' educating people, including law enforcement, about violent crimes against women and children. As I said in a previous post, my mother works at a women's shelter, and that shelter would NOT exist if it weren't for the women's movement. I sensed from your post you are very aware of this.

I wish the social workers, et al, never made any mistakes, because the consequences can be as traumatizing as when they were in their home.

I do not have an answer for the mistakes. I wish I did. But I don't think it is government policy that it is at fault.

Again, I enjoyed your post.

Elphaba

[hordak]

Hordak have you EVER had a baby? Quite nice to hear it doesn't take 6 weeks from someone that has NEVER had a baby.

My wife had 2

[hordak]

Have you ever had a c-section? It is MAJOR ABDOMINAL SURGURY. It DOES sometimes take 6 weeks to recoup from that, especially if complications occur (such as an infection in the incision). It was a month after my c/s before I could sneeze without feeling like I was going to burst open, and two weeks before I could walk normally without heavy medication.

Just going off my wifes experiences.

Would you also agree with an employer denying equal pay to a childless co-worker taking time off to care for a terminally ill parent? They're not putting in as much work as the others, and it's a "choice" since they could leave the parent in the care of a hospital, but should an employee really be expected to chose between work or family when it comes to making a living and bringing home enough money? Does EVERYTHING in life have to be "fair"?

Yes i would. I believe in equality. Should they have to choose,No but should the other workers picking up the slack receive the same compensation although there doing more work?

[RachelleDrew]

No but should the other workers picking up the slack receive the same compensation although there doing more work?

Yes, I can think of hundreds of occasions when I had to pick up slack for someone. I can think of lots of instances when somebody had to pick up slack for me. Maybe a coworker was sick, perhaps my boss's family member died. Maybe somebody was just being lazy. Perhaps I wasn't performing to the best of my ability just because my mind was on something else.

Do I think that I should get paid extra on the days that I had to use a little extra elbow grease to make up for other's shortcomings? It would be nice, but not if it were at the expense of someone else's paycheck. We all have to pick up slack for someone at work at some point, so long as it isn't a constant thing due to one person's recurring laziness then I don't mind at all.

As for why I couldn't drive, i've heard that for most women it's because a car accident after an abdominal surgery could be fatal, but for myself it's because I couldn't walk without the aide of a crutch or someone helping me. I was also heavily medicated. I definitely couldn't de-intestine a couple hundred 60lb pigs at that point.

[funkymonkey]

At Walmart the ladies make the same wage as I do. Sometimes more. You telling me that they get taxed more?

Hi Kona.

The women you work with are very fortunate, equal pay (especially by a big corporation) is pretty rare.

Please take a look at: The Wage Gap — Infoplease.com

Part of it says: "The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that in 2007 female financial advisors earned 53.7% of the median weekly wages of male financial advisors, and women in sales occupations earned just 64.8% of men's wages in equivalent positions.

If working women earned the same as men (those who work the same number of hours; have the same education, age, and union status; and live in the same region of the country), their annual family incomes would rise by $4,000 and poverty rates would be cut in half."

Wage descrimination isn't just an issue for gender but but also race. We are supposed to be a progressive nation but we're still a little behind in this area.

Hordak I completely dissagree with you. I find your point of view a little odd because your family would directly benefit by a maternity leave program, your wife is the sole "bread-winner". Would you really want to be without 6 weeks of pay...because your wife is the one with the "oven"?

Should we just tell women "sorry, I know you have to work to get by, but I'm going to dock your pay if you happen to get pregnant." If that's really "fair", we should just dock the father's pay too...afterall he is "50% responsible" for the maternity leave. Would that be "fair" to you?

Edited July 29, 2008 by funkymonkey
spelling

[kona0197]

Everywhere I have worked the ladies earn just as much as I do.

[Moksha]

Their are benefits to the women's movement. I think the movement liberated men as well. I think men are more involved fathers.

Our Elders Quorum sometimes resembles a junior nursery. Wouldn't have seen that some years ago. I suppose many have a yearning for the good old days till they realize they weren't always so good.

[WANDERER]

Funding maternity leave and other such things makes good economic sense....without these new generations you have an increase in the retirement age and a devaluation or chipping away of superannuation (lack of balance between those working and not working) and other such side effects. I'd even go as far as to say subsidising educational study to increase skills is going to improve your life quality (or the extension of it).

My income is equal on paper...but my taxes and claims and so on aren't. So a married woman with children or a married man with children is probably going to 'earn' more...plus their combined income...but it probably works out in the longrun with additional expenses and so on. Though it does amount to a mess with retirement for those that are single or single by then where things definitely need a bit more fine tuning.

I am curious enough to watch what is happening globally as the boomers retire. I think it's instructional.

[MorningStar]

Microsoft gives men a month of paid paternity leave. Man I wish my husband worked there. The new baby is hard on the dad too being kept up all night.

[hordak]

Hordak I completely dissagree with you. I find your point of view a little odd because your family would directly benefit by a maternity leave program, your wife is the sole "bread-winner". Would you really want to be without 6 weeks of pay...because your wife is the one with the "oven"?

Should we just tell women "sorry, I know you have to work to get by, but I'm going to dock your pay if you happen to get pregnant." If that's really "fair", we should just dock the father's pay too...afterall he is "50% responsible" for the maternity leave. Would that be "fair" to you?

I do benefit from it. Not only has my wife received 6 weeks of payed con leave for having our kids but she is non deployable for 6 months following the births.Do i like it,yes .Has this helped us, absolutely.

But i have been on the other side.And if they wanted to pay the men and women who work an extra 6 weeks per year more money I would completely understand.Should you dock the fathers pay? If he got 6 weeks off also they wouldn't have to.Then we would have equality.

[funkymonkey]

I am curious enough to watch what is happening globally as the boomers retire. I think it's instructional.

Hi Wanderer. (love the name) :)

Actually this has already happened in a few countries...the one I'm remembering off hand is Japan. There are a couple of countries in Europe that dealt with this after the second world war too, but I can't remember any of the examples they used.

In Japan, the younger generation is having a real hard time keeping the economy going. Most of them work 12-18 hour days, 6-7 days a week, and their elders are still increasing in homelessness every year.

I wish I remember the articles I read on it. It talked about how they're encouraging the younger generation to have kids now to atleast get the reproduction rate to 2.3, or something.

Pretty interesting stuff.

[funkymonkey]

Should you dock the fathers pay? If he got 6 weeks off also they wouldn't have to.Then we would have equality.

Socialist countries have programs similar to that, but they don't dock someone's pay. In Sweden "all working parents are entitled to 18 months paid leave per child, the cost being shared between employer and State. To encourage greater paternal involvement in child-rearing, a minimum of 3 months out of the 18 is required to be used by the "minority" parent, in practice usually the father." Parental Leave

Pretty cool, but of course the taxes are sky high.

[kona0197]

Microsoft gives men a month of paid paternity leave. Man I wish my husband worked there. The new baby is hard on the dad too being kept up all night.

I love building computers and using them but I would not work for Microsoft. They have a monopoly going on and blind the government to it and top that off with Ballmer is an idiot

[hordak]

Socialist countries have programs similar to that, but they don't dock someone's pay. In Sweden "all working parents are entitled to 18 months paid leave per child, the cost being shared between employer and State. To encourage greater paternal involvement in child-rearing, a minimum of 3 months out of the 18 is required to be used by the "minority" parent, in practice usually the father." Parental Leave

Pretty cool, but of course the taxes are sky high.

I'm not a big fan of the government picking up others expenses for that very reason.