Atlas Shrugged

[siouxz72]

so, I've decided to expand my reading from Star Magazine and the Twilight Series...

Can anyone tell me if I have to read The Fountainhead before reading Atlas Shrugged?

Thanks ya'll!!

[Dr T]

I've read Atlas Shrugged but not Fountain Head. I'd say no.

[siouxz72]

Yay!! Thank you! I appreciate it..Ima steal Matty's copy then before I leave tonight! :)

[prisonchaplain]

No...I've read both...they are totally separate stories, though many of the same themes run through both. Atlas Shrugged is a more exhaustive story, and best offers Rand's philosophy. IMHO, Rand's error is the same as that of Marx--she assumes that human nature is basically good, rather than corrupted by sin.

[Dr T]

IMHO, Rand's error is the same as that of Marx--she assumes that human nature is basically good, rather than corrupted by sin.

I agree with you PC. I admire the concepts (a lot) but they simply do not work imo.

[dazed-and-confused]

yeah...i read it years ago.....and although it's nice to believe that people can take care of themselves.......well........hope you enjoy it siouxz....i did when i read it.....but like i said.....LONG time ago

[Moksha]

Rand's error is the same as that of Marx--she assumes that human nature is basically good, rather than corrupted by sin.

So we are probably better off reading Thomas Hobbs then.

[prisonchaplain]

Moksha...or maybe the Apostle Paul?

[Elphaba]

No...I've read both...they are totally separate stories, though many of the same themes run through both. Atlas Shrugged is a more exhaustive story, and best offers Rand's philosophy. IMHO, Rand's error is the same as that of Marx--she assumes that human nature is basically good, rather than corrupted by sin.

Hi PC,

Sorry--another lecture from Elphaba.

When Siouxz started this thread, a small bell started ringing in my head. I had taken a Philosophy course where we had to read both books, which were amazing to me. The only thing I remembered concretely was her invention of "Objectivism."

So, when you stated she "assumed human nature is basically good," that was not how I remembered it exactly. So I ran a google search, and came up with the following four points she outlined when describing "Objectivism."

1. Reality exists as an objective absolute--facts are facts, independent of man's feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.

2. Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses) is man's only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.

3. Man--every man--is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.

4. The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man's rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals and foreign invaders. In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but historically has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, I would disagree that she thought man was basically good; in fact, I think she thought the opposite, except for those industrious and innovative individuals who remained true to their visions.

I distinctly remember my "aha" moment while reading Fountainhead. She wrote of skyscrapers (obviously), and said man should be praised by society for such phenomenal accomplishments, rather than be dismissive.

I hope this made sense. For all I know, I remember it completely wrong. I'm really basing my memories on the four-point explanation of her "Objectivism." So, if someone proves me wrong, I would not be surprised.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

so, I've decided to expand my reading from Star Magazine and the Twilight Series...

Can anyone tell me if I have to read The Fountainhead before reading Atlas Shrugged?

Thanks ya'll!!

In my opinion, definitely Fountainhead before Atlas Shrugged.

Fountainhead is an easier read, and while everyone is correct that one has nothing to do with the other, I think Fountainhead plants the seed that explains her philosophy.

That in turn makes it a little easier to recognize the undercurrent that flows through Atlas. But don't let that fool you, because they are completely different novels.

However, I did not catch on to this the first time I read it; in fact, I struggled with Atlas. It was on a second read, when I was much older, that it made sense. But as I write this, it occurs to me what I inferred may not be what Rand meant.

My two cents.

Elphaba

[Bookmeister]

I actually read both books (Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged) about once a year. I appreciate the idea that individuals should be responsible for themselves, and that many truly productive people are dragging boatloads of "looters" and "hangers-on" around with them.

My problem, though, is what comes across as Rand's complete lack of honest compassion for those people trapped in the cycles of loss and poverty.

[miztrniceguy]

i have not read either yet, but plan to read Atlas soon, since my wife raves about it and agrees with a lot of what Rand has to say. It will have to wait, as i am currently alternating my reading at home between The Rise and Fall of Nauvoo by B. H. Roberts and recent issues of Business Week. While at work i alternate between Car & Driver and Smart Money.

[miztrniceguy]

My wife just told me she has read , and we have both, as well as Anthem, which she says should be read first.

She describes Anthem as the foundation, Fountainhead as the framework, and Atlas Shrugged as the sheetrock ,paint, windows, etc.

I think i will read Anthem first.

[Connie]

I actually just read Anthem a few nights ago. Easy read. Read it in just one evening. Very well written and interesting. It seems to me that while dismissing the Marxist "We" (which i definitely approve), she takes it to the other/opposite extreme. I'll have to read the other 2 to tell what her philosophy is for sure, though. It almost seems like Nietzsche versus Marx.

[Over43]

Both are good works of literature, The Fountainhead should be read before Atlas Shrugged. As stated above it is a less strenuous introduction to her "evolving" philosophy (Objectivism) at the time.

She gives us the premise as "Man as Hero" (Howard Roark in The Fountainhead and John Galt in Atlas Shrugged), and particularly in Atlas Shrugged that the "masses" will follow a path of self-destruction until that hero (John Galt in this case) rises up and shows them the way to being better. And although Aristotle was her "hero", her Man as Hero premise in Atlas Shrugged, as represented by John Galt, appears to fit more closely (I think) to Plato's "Philosopher King". (Which eventually plays itself out in real life anciently with Alexander and Marcus Aurelius.)

They are both interesting books, and worth the time to get through. I'm a pretty quick reader, but Atlas Shrug usually takes me two months to get through.

O43

[Moksha]

I think that Christian stuff gets in the way of truly appreciating a dog-eat-dog philosophy of life.

[siouxz72]

okay... I'll go with the advise of mztrniceguy's wife and read Anthem first. I guess I should go get a library card this weekend :) Thank you guys! I'm really excited about reading these books!!

[Elphaba]

okay... I'll go with the advise of mztrniceguy's wife and read Anthem first. I guess I should go get a library card this weekend :) Thank you guys! I'm really excited about reading these books!!

Hi sweetie,

I have a copy that I could send to you if you'd like. It's really small, so it would be no problem.

Elphie

[siouxz72]

that would be awesome, elphie darling! i love you! did you already know that? hey everyone out there on the world wide interweb...I love elphie! She's on of my best friends forever! And my life is better because she is in it! I just thought ya'll should know! :)

[Elphaba]

I think Siouxz likes me.

I think Siouxz loves me.

I think Siouxz wants to marry me.

I think I better stop before Siouxz dumps me.

Elphie

[siouxz72]

hee hee! I would never "dump" you!

[Over43]

I think that Christian stuff gets in the way of truly appreciating a dog-eat-dog philosophy of life.

That's quite a profound statement. Plus most of Ayn Rand's Objectivism is quite opposite of what we are taught in King Benjamin's speech.

O43

[ADoyle90815]

I have to admit that I didn't like either Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead when I read them. I don't remember what order I read them, just that I didn't like Ayn Rand's philosophy.

[a-train]

My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute. - Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged 35th Anniversary Edition)

Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God. But we cannot keep all the commandments without first knowing them, and we cannot expect to know all, or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received. That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another.- Joseph Smith (TPJS pp. 255-256)

-a-train

[NeuroTypical]

Yeah, but Joseph Smith found value in children, whereas our good buddy Ayn found value in nookie.

(Don't take this to mean I'm not an Ayn Rand fan, I'm just not an Ayn Rand disciple.)

LM