First Degree Murder and the Celestial Kingdom

[HoosierGuy]

I read in a study guide (not official LDS publication) that if we repent for all sins and keep the Covenants, we can make it to the Celestial Kingdom. Right.

However, the book says there are a couple of things that can keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom - denying the Holy Ghost and first degree murder. From my understandig from the book - if you commit first degree murder there is no way you can make it to the Celestial Kingdom.

So, what is official Church Doctrine on First Degree Murder? I thought that Jesus Atoned for all sins, including first degree murder, and that Heavenly Father forgives all who are truly sorry.

Can first degree murder keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom? Are there any in the Church who believe first degree murder can keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom?

[rameumptom]

Jesus did atone for all sins. However, not all sins can be fully atoned for.

Many LDS, including some of our leaders, believe that First Degree Murder (at least by LDS members) cannot fully be reconciled. Two terms are often used: pardoned and forgiven.

The sin against the Holy Ghost, is known as the UnPardonable Sin. For this, the individual is assigned forever to Outer Darkness with Satan and his angels when they are finally cast down forever. To be a Son of Perdition requires having received all the LDS ordinances, having a perfect witness of Christ, and then killing an innocent (as Cain did to Abel), becoming a full follower of Satan.

Murder in the first degree is believed by some to be pardonable, but not fully forgiveable. This view has it that someone knowing better, having received all the LDS ordinances and a strong witness of the gospel, but not a perfect witness of Christ, who then slays someone in the first degree, loses their chance at exaltation. Some believe it only allows the atonement to save the individual to the Telestial Kingdom, whereas I believe the individual (as with King David in his repentance), can achieve a higher kingdom, but lose their exaltation.

In this view, Christ's atonement still resurrects the person and saves the person from Outer Darkness, bringing the individual to a kingdom of glory. But since murdering an individual means a person cannot restore what they have taken, and the dead person has lost a chance for repentance and experience, and so a full repentance cannot be achieved.

Views on this are changing in the Church, since Elder Spencer Kimball wrote on this view in Miracle of Forgiveness in the 1950s. As it is, even if a murderer can achieve exaltation through Christ's atonement, it would be a long and difficult road to achieve, given how close to perdition the person's soul has come.

With the severity of murder, an individual desiring baptism who has been found guilty of 1st or 2nd degree murder must first apply to the First Presidency. For many of these, the First Presidency will have the person wait until after the Millennium comes and the Lord can make the determination himself. I knew on my mission of a guy who used to be an assassin for the communist rebels. He desired baptism, and interviewed with the Mission President, but all the president could tell him was to attend Church and hope that the Lord would one day allow him to receive baptism. That was the view in 1978, and still tends to be where we are today, as it is such a grievous sin.

Edited October 1, 2008 by rameumptom

[Hemidakota]

Hoosierguy, the answer is Yes [talking about members who received all of their covenants and ordinances] !...there is thread on this forum that goes to great length in explaining why.

Here is what the Savior told the members of the church: D&C 42:18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

Edited October 1, 2008 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Views on this are changing in the Church, since Elder Spencer Kimball wrote on this view in Miracle of Forgiveness in the 1950s. As it is, even if a murderer can achieve exaltation through Christ's atonement, it would be a long and difficult road to achieve, given how close to perdition the person's soul has come.

Here is the quote:

Even among willful murderers there are grades and categories. . . . There are those who kill in drunkenness, in rage, in anger, in jealousy. There are those who kill for gain, for power, for fear. There are those who kill for lust. They certainly will suffer different degrees of punishment hereafter. (Miracle of Forgiveness)

[pam]

Didn't Nephi slay Laban per instructions from the Lord? I guess I never considered that "murder" as we know it.

[funkymonkey]

I have often wondered what will happen to the tyrants of this world... Hitler, Stalin, etc??

[pam]

I have often wondered what will happen to the tyrants of this world... Hitler, Stalin, etc??

I, as well.

[Traveler]

We may like to define things but for those that have knowingly faced taking another human life for what ever the reason - including war (something I have faced). Bottom line - I believe that anyone that desires to be in the Celestial Kingdom; that G-d in his wisdom, love and mercy has a plan to fulfill that desire. That plan includes the atonement of Jesus Christ.

I believe scriptures and prophets warn about things - not so we can condemn others but that me may see ourselves in light of what we must do to obtain Celestial covenants. There are many in scripture that have taken the life of another or tried to take a life - including Abraham.

It is not a question about what can be done - it is only a question of what you are willing to take upon yourself by covenant.

If you have made a covenant with G-d - I strongly suggest you honor that covenant.

If you have not made a covenant with G-d - I strongly suggest you consider that possibility.

The Traveler

[funkymonkey]

How does suicide play into this?

[Hemidakota]

Welch, John W. "Legal Perspectives on the Slaying of Laban." Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 1 (Fall 1992): 119-41.

FARMS: Printer Friendly - Legal Perspectives on the Slaying of Laban

Edited October 1, 2008 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

How does suicide play into this?

By Elder M. Russell Ballard

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Suicide: Some Things We Know, and Some We Do Not

[SkyWishes]

The great joy of the judgement day will be that we will not be judged solely on our actions but more on what was in our hearts at the time of those actions. Serious mental illness can drive people to commit such a terrible sin (though very rare). What about the child soldiers of war who are taught from such a young age to hold a gun and be a hero? (yes until 8 they are not accountable but then what after that). What about the soldiers that defend our homelands? What about manslaughter when some one doesn't intend to kill some one but tragically they do? I think to take anothers life is indeed the worst sin but there are so many things that come under it. Let's just take comfort that the judge is going to be the best ever judge there can be, our own father ! As for stalin and hitler well, they have a lot to answer to I think...

[funkymonkey]

What about the child soldiers of war who are taught from such a young age to hold a gun and be a hero? (yes until 8 they are not accountable but then what after that). What about the soldiers that defend our homelands?

Howdy SkyWishes. I know you probably were asking this as more of a rhetorical question but I wanted to reply anyway.

I don't know where I learned this but I learned that the Lord does not hold soldiers accountable for what their leaders direct. I don't know if that means that the generals and such are responsible or the leaders of the countries that officially initiated the war?? I dunno. Maybe someone else can explain it better.

[Moksha]

Welch, John W. "Legal Perspectives on the Slaying of Laban." Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 1 (Fall 1992): 119-41.

There undoubtedly were extenuating circumstances. Perhaps Laban was snoring way to loudly.

[Prodigal_Son]

I don't know where I learned this but I learned that the Lord does not hold soldiers accountable for what their leaders direct. I don't know if that means that the generals and such are responsible or the leaders of the countries that officially initiated the war?? I dunno. Maybe someone else can explain it better.

President Hinckley talked about this briefly in conference as we went into war in 10/01... Soldiers are being obedient to their country and to their leaders - which is what they're to do. Those in power will be held accountable for the atrocities of war.

[bert10]

Come one LDS guys....you can do better than the the answers I have read so far.

Here is the answer....Christ did atone for all sins. However, the question is which Sins can be forgiven unto us in this world and in the next and which sins cannot be forgiven in this world nor in the world to come.

Remission of our sins...is based on these doctrines.....

1st... the Ability to be RENEWED unto REPENTANCE [Heb 6:4-6]

And if we can be Renewed unto Repentance...

then it is based on ....... a. Repentance and restitution (The laws of the restitution are in the OT.)

b. The Degree by which we ourselves can forgive others. (Matthew 6:12 - And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.)

--------------------------------------

John has given the teaching of Jesus on what is the ATONEMENT which is when it is possible for us to be ONE In the MOMENT with CHRIST....So that His Blood shall cleanse us when we learn to WALK IN THE LIGHT AS CHRIST IS IN THE LIGHT.

1 John 1:7 -But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

AT-ONE-MENT occurs ONLY WHEN WE WALK IN THE LIGHT AS CHRIST IS IN THE LIGHT.

Sons of perdition have filled their souls with darkness......so much so that the power of the Holy Ghost cannot renew them unto Repentance.

So there are those who cannot be renewed unto repentance....Also there will be those who will refuse to repent at the last judgment....These cannot inherit any part of the glory of God.

---------------------------------------

Either men repent in this world or in the next. if men put themselves in the position of being unable fully to repent in this world...He will pay for in the Spirit Prison. Anyone that does not repent in this world or in the next world shall be sent to the Outer Darkness.

Peace be unto you

bert10

I read in a study guide (not official LDS publication) that if we repent for all sins and keep the Covenants, we can make it to the CelestialKingdom. Right.

However, the book says there are a couple of things that can keep you out of the CelestialKingdom - denying the Holy Ghost and first degree murder. From my understandig from the book - if you commit first degree murder there is no way you can make it to the CelestialKingdom.

So, what is official Church Doctrine on First Degree Murder? I thought that Jesus Atoned for all sins, including first degree murder, and that Heavenly Father forgives all who are truly sorry.

Can first degree murder keep you out of the CelestialKingdom? Are there any in the Church who believe first degree murder can keep you out of the CelestialKingdom?

[Moksha]

Love, forgiveness and mercy are at the heart of Christ's message, as is faith, hope and charity. God is not devoid of these qualities. Hope springs eternal. His eternal promise ensures that eternal hope. His love can transcend all our trespasses and pettiness if we believe.

Remember that scene in the Lord of the Rings, when the rightful king offers redemption to the Oathbreaking Dead? Surely the Lord of Hosts can be as magnanimous. Hope does indeed spring eternal.

[rameumptom]

It comes down not to whether Christ can atone for these things, but whether we will allow him to atone for these things.

Some people fall so far deep into evil and sin that they are unable or unwilling to be atoned to the level of exaltation. It just isn't in them to change that much, at least not now. Who knows what will occur in the Millennium to allow the most repentant ones to change around and fully repent.

[Vanhin]

The type of killing that is unforgivable, is synonymous with blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. When a member of the Church receives the new and everlasting covenant, and it has been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise - meaning God has accepted it - and then they murder by shedding innocent blood, they have committed blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. (D&C 132:26-27)

Murderers who have not entered into the new and everlasting covenant, should turn to the Lord and do everything they can to repent. Ultimately, God will judge them in perfect justice and mercy.

The Anti-Nephi-Lehies were an example of people who had murdered and repented of their sins. This is one of the reasons why they made a covenant not to take up arms against their brethren any more, because they feared committing the unpardonable sin at that point. And we know that "they are blessed, for they have gone to dwell with their God." (Alma 24)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[bert10]

Hi Vanhin.

Understand what the Lord is saying concerning Murdering....Men think as men. All types of Blasphemies against the Holy Ghost is murdering the Light. Shedding the blood of the innocent is only but one of the ways...we can sin against the Holy Ghost.The Apostles teach on what not to do to be in the position of being unable to be renewed unto repentance in Hebrews 6:4-6. Is this basically what you are saying.

Satan was a Murderer from the Beginning?

Who did Satan murder from the beginning? Spirits cannot be murdered in the worldly sense.

Jesus:

John 8:44 - Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Satan murdered the Light/Truth within Himself. Lucifer also meant bearer of Truths. Satan means father of lies...ie Bearer of lies.

As for knowingly shedding Innocent blood....it is but one of the greatest abominations [blasphemies] a man can do ...because it is to kill the light within oneself.

The law is do unto others as you would like done unto yourself is especially active when we KNOWINGLY shed the blood of an innocent [child/saint/Righteous/elect/pure of heart etc]. If we shed the blood of an Innocent..it is as though we were doing it to Christ and by doing it ,we do MURDER the LIGHT of CHRIST WITHIN US. Then there is only DARKNESS...So we too become murderers or men unable to be brought unto repentance.

Anyway this is what I know....I realize it is not what people teach at this time.

Peace be unto you

bert10

[walterkellar]

I do not understand why killing oneself is wrong. I attempted once but was discovered....I think if one wants to opt out this "wonderful" mortal mire it should be a viable option.....colour me bitter.

[rameumptom]

This life is our time of probation. It is the time given us by God to repent and become spiritual beings that follow in Jesus' footsteps. Suicide essentially robs us of the opportunity to repent and become the spiritual being we are.

Bitterness comes from one of two (or both) ways: chemical imbalances/disease, or sin. The scriptures note that we should have hope of a better world. Those without faith and hope tend to be in despair, and "despair cometh of iniquity." It is our responsibility to seek out God with all our heart and soul until we find Him. And as we seek him, express hope and faith that the journey will happen. I admire Ether, who at the end of the Book of Ether and the destruction of the Jaredites, stated that it doesn't matter what happens to him, as long as he can return to God's presence. That is hope and faith!

If we're bitter, chances are that part of the problem is we've wanted happiness in wickedness. There are many ways this can happen, including: pride, materialism, lazy in our spiritual search, refusal to believe, and outright sins that we attempt to justify. As Elder Christofferson mentioned this past weekend, we cannot live in Zion with a summer cabin in Babylon. Or, as Jesus stated, we cannot serve two masters.

Some commit suicide when they are in so much pain or insanity that they know not what they do. I had a great uncle who was in this position. But too many seek the easy way out, when there is no easy way out. What we refuse to learn here in this life, we'll learn in the spirit world the harder way.

Why? Because it is the only way most of us can be humbled enough to allow the atonement of Christ to save us.

[walterkellar]

Could it just possible that the bitterness comes from unfulfilled expectations? I reject your only two options. I am bitter because what I tried to obtained was denied me. Tried to play by the rules. God has favorites and it is apparent that I am not one of them. No...if I could have just one wish is that after death one could receive oblivion. I do not want any sort of self-awarness....if He were a "kind and loving God" that would be a blessing....yet I see myself setting up for another failed expectation.

[bytor2112]

Walterkeller,

Bitterness and despair can and should be when they occur,... temporary. Happiness is a choice....the glass is half full or half empty...it's all a matter of perspective. I am not sure that bitterness is a disease, I guess it could be if it is chronic. Change yuor situation, move somewhere else, change jobs and above all else.....remember that we are eternal beings and this life as we know it...... will end,....but we will continue. :) Hang in there, bow up. EEKGAD, man.

[Guest tomk]

I read in a study guide (not official LDS publication) that if we repent for all sins and keep the Covenants, we can make it to the CelestialKingdom. Right.

However, the book says there are a couple of things that can keep you out of the CelestialKingdom - denying the Holy Ghost and first degree murder. From my understandig from the book - if you commit first degree murder there is no way you can make it to the CelestialKingdom.

So, what is official Church Doctrine on First Degree Murder? I thought that Jesus Atoned for all sins, including first degree murder, and that Heavenly Father forgives all who are truly sorry.

Can first degree murder keep you out of the CelestialKingdom? Are there any in the Church who believe first degree murder can keep you out of the CelestialKingdom?

If we have not yet received the Second Comforter ... all sins, including murder, can be atoned for.

After we have received the Second Comforter ... after we have had Christ minister to us face to face ... if we commit murder whereby we shed innocent blood, we become a Son of Perdition and cannot be redeemed. To commit murder after we have received the Second Comforter is to deny the Holy Ghost. It is to consent to Christ's crucifiction. It is as if no Atonement had been made.

Those who murder after they have been baptized, but who have not received the Second Comforter, will receive an inheritance in the Telestial Kingdom.

There are circumstances where those who have committed murder before baptism can still receive baptism, etc. -- but these cases ( I think ) require the review of the First Presidency. And who do you think they are talking to? They are talking to the Lord Himself about that individual. It is on a case by case basis.

Christ is the Judge Over All. He alone knows our true heart and the depth of our repentance.