Words of Wisdom?

[mustang90]

I was reading the words of wisdom and I was wondering how closely certain aspects are followed.

For example, I know that Mormons won't drink tea or coffee, drink alcohol, or use tobacco.

Indeed all mormons I have ever known follow such commandments.

However I read on and found:

"Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

Now I haven't met any mormons who will decline a good summer bbq.

So do Mormons really eat meat sparingly, or specifically only in the winter?

Or is that seen as a "Well back in the day that was true, but now aday we don't really..."

Oh, and I have no problem following the W.O.W btw, I don't drink, smoke, and can easily live without caffeine or meat. So it wouldn't be a deal breaker or anything like that.

Thanks,

Mustang

:)

[Kyra]

That's very interesting. I've really never noticed that part of the WoW before. I guess you learn something new every day, right?

I do know plenty of members who eat meat sparingly, my family included. My mom may use hamburger or chicken in a casserole a couple times a week, but that's it. Me, on the other hand, I love my meat! LOL It's something I need to work on, especially now! Thanks for posting this!

[abqfriend]

I an a Catholic reading this.

I lived in Florida for years.

The largest cattle ranch there was/is owned by the LDS Church:

here is a link

Deseret Ranch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EVERYMONDAY: Discovering the Deseret Ranch

-How does this go with the Words of Wisdom?

-Carol

[Truegrits]

The LDS where I am now, a small southern farming area, eat meat abundantly...the LDS in my Ward in Naples did eat it less.

I think LDS are like most everyone else; meat eaters.

My family and I have many a discussion on that very topic.

[abqfriend]

I, as a Catholic am confused in reading this thread.

Are certain areas of the Words of Wisdom to be read more literally more than others?

Are some parts to be ignored?

Does a later D and C clarify the matter?

According to LDS doctrine/teaching-is eating meat abundantly ok?-or is sparingly only OK?-and if so-why own such a huge cattle ranch??

That would be the same as being told-do not drink alcohol-while owning a brewery.

-I am confused.

Please help end my confusion.

Thanks

-Carol

The LDS where I am now, a small southern farming area, eat meat abundantly...the LDS in my Ward in Naples did eat it less.

I think LDS are like most everyone else; meat eaters.

My family and I have many a discussion on that very topic.

[john doe]

We all have our favorite weaknesses. Meat should be eaten sparingly. But what is considered sparingly? Meats are full of essential vitamins and minerals, some of which are difficult to obtain without eating meat. Can you overdo it? Sure. I would guess that most Americans, not just LDS, eat much more meat than they actually need. It's a conundrum, though. The problem is that God made meat taste SO GOOD.

As for the large cattle ranch, I don't see how that relates. The harvest on that ranch feeds a lot of people, and I would guess that the general church population probably sees very little of that meat. Probably the only times they would see it would be as church welfare recipients or church cannery volunteers, who are allowed to buy some of the product which they have helped can.

It may interest you to know that Brigham Young did own and run a winery in Utah while the Word of Wisdom was advice, before it became binding as a commandment. I personally see no problem with a person producing and selling a legal product which my religion forbids me to use, as long as I don't use it myself. Some people see things differently, but I believe in allowing free will for those who do not worship the same as I.

[MarginOfError]

I an a Catholic reading this.

I lived in Florida for years.

The largest cattle ranch there was/is owned by the LDS Church:

here is a link

Deseret Ranch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EVERYMONDAY: Discovering the Deseret Ranch

-How does this go with the Words of Wisdom?

-Carol

Oh, that cattle ranch...I hear they're expanding that to include sheep and birds to prepare for the restoration of the Law of Moses. And if you believe that, I've got a footbridge from Rhode Island to Hawaii I'd like to sell you.

[hordak]

I, as a Catholic am confused in reading this thread.

Are certain areas of the Words of Wisdom to be read more literally more than others?

5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

Enforced to the T.

...only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him. 6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

D&C 27: 3

3 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies;

Homemade sacrament wine is ok. But not used.(although this might be a convenience thing)

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

Not asked asked about, not defined.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

Wild animals, and fowls are only for times of famine.Yet i can't tell you how many LDS are avid hunters.Including my Bishop.

16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

Mild barley drink. Completely ignored.

[abqfriend]

It makes no sense to me as a- Catholic reading this -that the LDS Church would encourage eating meat sparingly and own a very large cattle ranch and sell meat to others.

As I said previously-this would be like the church telling it's members not to drink-yet owning a brewery and selling alcohol to others to consume---it makes no sense to me as a Catholic reading this.

We all have our favorite weaknesses. Meat should be eaten sparingly. ....

As for the large cattle ranch, I don't see how that relates. The harvest on that ranch feeds a lot of people, and I would guess that the general church population probably sees very little of that meat.

[Brother Dorsey]

It makes no sense to me as a- Catholic reading this -that the LDS Church would encourage eating meat sparingly and own a very large cattle ranch and sell meat to others.

As I said previously-this would be like the church telling it's members not to drink-yet owning a brewery and selling alcohol to others to consume---it makes no sense to me as a Catholic reading this.

I know exactly where you are coming from...when I was a Catholic a lot of things made no sense to me either until I found the Lord's true church.

The WOW states:

"Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

Think about this carefully, the Lord says, "only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." Back in 1835 they had no refrigerators, freezers etc. so the Lord in His wisdom told the Saints not to eat meat when it was warm outside IE: late Spring, Summer and early Fall. What happens to meat when it's warm? It goes bad fast and could make one very ill. The Lord does not tell the Saint to refrain from eating meat....He tells them,"they are to be used sparingly." Back in 1835 they didn't have corner grocery stores where you could go and get anything your heart desires. They had very few choices in food. Grain and breads were the staple, some meat and poultry, a few types of fruits and vegetables that were in season. The Lord was concerned that His people not eat only meat but a variety of what was available. In todays world you can have your steak, potato, green beens, salad and nice fruit cup desert and you are getting all the nutrition you need. In 1835 in the winter the best you could do was bread, meat, and milk. No veggies and no fruits. Imagine what would happen if you were to eat only meat for a couple of months? Grain and bread are okay to do that with but not meat. The Lord knew best back then and the Lord knows best now.....think about the Saints in the third world countries today who would heed the Lords counsel regarding using meat sparingly? It continues to hold true.

As far as church owned cattle ranches....that's meat raised for the church welfare system and when needed it's given to families in just as equal quantities as grains, fruits and vegetables.

The Lord does NOT tell members of His church to not eat meat.

The Lord does tell members of His church to not consume alcohol.

I hope that clears up your confusion.

[NeuroTypical]

"Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

Now I haven't met any mormons who will decline a good summer bbq.

So do Mormons really eat meat sparingly, or specifically only in the winter?

Please see this post for an interesting twist to the story. I contend that a comma has jumped around in this sentence changing the origional meaning of the verse. It used to be a refutation of people who claimed God only wanted meat consumed in winter/famine times.

LM

[mustang90]

Thanks for everybody's help!:)

[abqfriend]

with due respect -45,000 head of Cattle in the largest cattle ranch in the State of Florida?

The D and C says "sparingly"-there seems to be a direct contridction as to what is stated in the D and C and what is done in practice by the Church.

Florida-is a long ways away from the great majority of LDS members.

Makes no sense at all.

Cattle Ranch is listed as a for-prophet taxable venture.

See above link.

-Carol

I know exactly where you are coming from...when I was a Catholic a lot of things made no sense to me either until I found the Lord's true church.

The WOW states:

"Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

Think about this carefully, the Lord says, "only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." Back in 1835 they had no refrigerators, freezers etc. so the Lord in His wisdom told the Saints not to eat meat when it was warm outside IE: late Spring, Summer and early Fall. What happens to meat when it's warm? It goes bad fast and could make one very ill. The Lord does not tell the Saint to refrain from eating meat....He tells them,"they are to be used sparingly." Back in 1835 they didn't have corner grocery stores where you could go and get anything your heart desires. They had very few choices in food. Grain and breads were the staple, some meat and poultry, a few types of fruits and vegetables that were in season. The Lord was concerned that His people not eat only meat but a variety of what was available. In todays world you can have your steak, potato, green beens, salad and nice fruit cup desert and you are getting all the nutrition you need. In 1835 in the winter the best you could do was bread, meat, and milk. No veggies and no fruits. Imagine what would happen if you were to eat only meat for a couple of months? Grain and bread are okay to do that with but not meat. The Lord knew best back then and the Lord knows best now.....think about the Saints in the third world countries today who would heed the Lords counsel regarding using meat sparingly? It continues to hold true.

As far as church owned cattle ranches....that's meat raised for the church welfare system and when needed it's given to families in just as equal quantities as grains, fruits and vegetables.

The Lord does NOT tell members of His church to not eat meat.

The Lord does tell members of His church to not consume alcohol.

I hope that clears up your confusion.

Edited November 7, 2008 by abqfriend

[Elgama]

with due respect -45,000 head of Cattle in the largest cattle ranch in the State of Florida?

The D and C says "sparingly"-there seems to be a direct contridction as to what is stated in the D and C and what is done in practice by the Church.

Florida-is a long ways away from the great majority of LDS members.

Makes no sense at all.

Cattle Ranch is listed as a for-prophet taxable venture.

See above link.

-Carol

given as the food raised here will be used for the welfare system amongst many things it is for times of individual hardship or famine.

Also the thousands of acres in the UK have a small pig herd, but :cool:grow mostly wheat and veggies - wonder what the proportion of veggies, wheat etc grown on church farms is to meat hmmm. Allowing us in the UK to beat the credit crunch and eat cheaply when the food bills of everyone else are going mad.

Personally I am 80% vegatarian would like to go the rest of the way but at present lack willpower, we eat meat once a fortnight usually.

-Charley

[Misshalfway]

with due respect -45,000 head of Cattle in the largest cattle ranch in the State of Florida?

The D and C says "sparingly"-there seems to be a direct contridction as to what is stated in the D and C and what is done in practice by the Church.

Florida-is a long ways away from the great majority of LDS members.

Makes no sense at all.

Cattle Ranch is listed as a for-prophet taxable venture.

See above link.

-Carol

I can understand why this might be confusing to you.

The WofW is about balance and healthful practice not extremes.

We eat meat. The church produces meat products. The church produces lots of other food products too. And we eat lots of different kinds of food as well. The Wow says that we should eat meat and it advises that we do so sparingly. And the individual is given the right to define what sparingly means. It also goes on to emphasize grains and other nutrition. If someone eats in healthful ways, they will eat protein in proper proportion to all other foods. Anyone who eats too much fatty meats is going to have health problems. Anyone who goes without proper levels of protein are going to have problems too.

So the church has a cattle ranch. No contradiction there. They also own fields and fields of veggies and multiple orchards of fruit. The church produces food of all kinds and goods for all needs. It is all part of a global effort to produce food stuffs for those in need inside and outside the church and part of that effort is meat production.

The practice of eating meat sparingly is an admonition for the individual and is an invitation for self control and balanced practice for ONLY those who make the covenant to live this way. It is not a dictate to live in the extremes and it isn't required for anyone not of our faith. We don't take in what is bad for us. That part is simple. We take in the rest in proper proportion. And we don't legislate it to the point of measuring ounce for ounce what each person digests. Talk about crazy making, if we did! Those who follow the word of wisdom will receive promised blessings of health. Those who do not, may have health issues. Sometimes we all have health issues no matter what we do. But we are invited to adopt the practice of taking care of our bodies in WISDOM.

But I object to the idea that the church having a cattle ranch or two is in any way evidence of contradiction. Perhaps you are looking at the WofW as if violating it in any degree is sinful. It is a health code that we practice not a righteousness straightjacket. We make covenants at baptism to live in certain ways. It is the disobedience to that covenant that is sinful. Eating too much meat isn't sinful. It is simply unwise.

It sounds like you are looking at one business venture of the church and measuring the whole of church practice against it. We never said we don't eat meat. The Lord gave us the animals for our use. And so we use them, in gratitude. I don't see the contradiction. If I get meat from the church, it is me that chooses how often I consume it, not the church.

Edited November 7, 2008 by Misshalfway

[hordak]

Please see this post for an interesting twist to the story. I contend that a comma has jumped around in this sentence changing the origional meaning of the verse. It used to be a refutation of people who claimed God only wanted meat consumed in winter/famine times.

LM

The comma moved and changed the sentence structure. But aren't all scripture changes approved by the GAs or higher? I mean

2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

This changed.

[NeuroTypical]

The comma moved and changed the sentence structure. But aren't all scripture changes approved by the GAs or higher?

All intentional scripture errors are. Unintentional errors creeping into subsequent printings of scriptures, of course, are not.

You'd think that if this comma change was an intentional thing, you could find a Prophet, Apostle, Seventy, GA, SP, or Bishop who would actually tell you "The WoW means only eat meat in winter or famine". I've yet to hear any of them say that. Every source I can find says "eat meat sparingly" and leaves it at that.

LM

[ADoyle90815]

All I know is that as a whole, Seventh Day Adventists have the longest life span in the US. One reason is that not only do they avoid alcohol, they don't eat meat. They also observe the Sabbath, which for them is on Saturday.

[ninjormon]

OK let me break this down, look at these questions from purely scientific, anatomically, common sense terms:

As for meat, I know first hand that we as LDS eat a lot of meat, any time I serve at the Bishops Storehouse I get put in the meat freezer for some reason, ground beef and breakfast sausage goes the fastest, (can anyone back me up?) If you only eat meat you will become susceptible to meat poinsoning. Meat does not digest well if at all in the human body and has to be helped along through the digestive track, too much meat and it doesnt really go anywhere. Therefore you need more of the other stuff than meat. As far as having a large farm with a lot of meat/cattle, there are a lot of people, enough said.

For caffiene, caffiene is proven to weaken the bones and cause calcium deficinecies. Caffiene is a drug, like any drug you become tolerant needing more for it to work. Caffiene causes bursts of energy but also heavy drops. Caffiene within 7-11 hours before bed can still cause restlessness and irritability from that loss of sleep. Any soft/hard drink also causes the liver and kidneys to work overtime.

Smoking and drinking can lead long term lead to cancer, short term cause lack of energy, lead to other problems and drugs, and definitely bad decisions.

Thus following the Word of Wisdom gives energy and longevity, or at least better enjoyment of the time we do have here. Not following the word of wisdom is a personal choice, more widespread in some areas than others but still an individal choice.

[nzorient]

We had a discussion in Sunday School about this one time. Although we do eat meat, don't waste it. So only cook what you can eat (sparingly) and keep the rest in the freezer for later.

I read in a book that talked about how "cave men" survived in the early days. During winter, it is harder for them to find food so they would eat up as much as they can during times of abundance (they would get fat) and during winter, the body would naturally eat the fat tissues as a method of survival. So relating it back to this, maybe the Lord reveled this because back in those days it may had been harder to get meat during winter so it was more wise to store as much meat as possible to last you through the season. (This is just my theory, not official doctrine)

[gaspah]

I don't understand why this part of the WoW is pushed aside, when it states it very clearly. Though... its the middle of summer now, and i just had a big feed of chicken, beef rissoles and snaggers (there were veges/salads too but, mostly they didnt get as much attention at the barbecue. I have no idea why this part of the WoW is blatantly disregarded whilst other parts are adhered to ever so strictly. Especially when weight is such a big health issue these days. Obesity, diabetes etc etc are just about on par with smoking when it comes to disease and death. So why ignore it, its not like there is any room for misinterpretation when reading the WoW.

But, I just opened my fast to give me help with my talk in front of the ward tomorrow. My nerves are getting worse and worse... gah.

[jax]

sparingly meens once a month if that so if mormons are to obey the wow properly thats wot they wood do

[Elgama]

OK for the last time on this board I will say Being overweight is NOT against the word of wisdom, it can be a consequence of disobeying the word of wisdom or you can live it and still be overweight or not live it and be skinny Section 89 contains wisdom that will help us be healthy, run and not be weary etc but it is not the commandment it even states that. The commandment is no Tea, Coffee, abuse of drugs, cigarettes and alcohol the revelation that made this commandment came later.

Yes there is wisdom in it but Gaspah you had your choice at the BBQ you could have eaten salad instead.... you chose not to it won't hold you back from obtaining a temple recommend but nor will it entitle you to the full blessings mentioned in the section. In my case I can follow D&C 89 to the letter and I will still walk and be weary, although I have managed to never faint.

Personally during the winter I eat meat 2-3 times a week, a chicken lasts my family several weeks. During the summer I eat it less frequently unless pregnant and craving it because our garden gives us lots of salads. Sparingly means different things in different parts of the world someone who lives in a more temperate climbs can grow fruit and veg, and have laying chucks everyday, here in North of Scotland we cant do that every winter - but root vegatables store well leading to food like stews etc which meat makes a huge difference to, I also try to make sure my meat comes from a good farm

Good Luck for your talk

-Charley

Edited January 10, 2009 by Elgama

[jax]

ok but wot abot hebal teas?

[Elgama]

ok but wot abot hebal teas?

depends if they come from the tea bush or not, if they do the answer is usually no

-Charley