Words of Wisdom?

[beefche]

Hyena,

The Word of Wisdom has very little things pointed out so exactly. The only things we know for certain (as revealed by prophets) is that it prohibits coffee and tea. And even then there is some discussion on what constitutes "tea."

The Word of Wisdom doesn't specify how much meat, what type of meat, how much grain, how many Cheetos, how much Mountain Dew and a whole plethora of other questions/discussions. The Lord has given us this guide to use for ourselves as we counsel with Him.

In order to receive baptism, you will be asked if you commit to live the Word of Wisdom--generally, that means no smoking, taking illegal drugs or abusing prescription drugs, no drinking alcohol, no drinking coffee or tea.

There are alot of Mormons (and non-Mormons) who like to think the Word of Wisdom means more and may have even received answers to prayers on it. But, answers to prayers are for individuals, not for the general population.

[estradling75]

So technically, LDS members are supposed to eat no more than 1 pound of meat per week? Is that BEEF meat? or all meat combined, including chickens and turkeys and fish?

Is there a definition of "meat"? Like it being only porky or beefy or goaty?

No... anyone who lays claim to a number or a time period as an official church position is pulling it out of their hindquarters. While they might have a number that works for them, it is not an official church position.

Also don't confuse what the church has as limits on those seeking the church's assistance... As some kind of limit on those who do not. Church assistance is designed to support life... Not lifestyle.

[BadWolf]

I think vegetarianism is a wonderful idea, but I refuse to follow it until the vegetarians show me the bacon plant.

Most of the vegetarians I know are vegetarians-who-eat-bacon.

I even know several vegans who cheat with bacon.

Bacon is sold in Israel... Although Jewish & Islamic law forbids eating pork.

Don't you know? Bacon comes from a "mythical animal".

So its okay

[etaks10]

Where did this number come from for approved amount of meat?

[applepansy]

I have never in 55 years heard anyone define "sparingly".

[Hyena]

Hyena,

The Word of Wisdom has very little things pointed out so exactly. The only things we know for certain (as revealed by prophets) is that it prohibits coffee and tea. And even then there is some discussion on what constitutes "tea."

The Word of Wisdom doesn't specify how much meat, what type of meat, how much grain, how many Cheetos, how much Mountain Dew and a whole plethora of other questions/discussions. The Lord has given us this guide to use for ourselves as we counsel with Him.

In order to receive baptism, you will be asked if you commit to live the Word of Wisdom--generally, that means no smoking, taking illegal drugs or abusing prescription drugs, no drinking alcohol, no drinking coffee or tea.

There are alot of Mormons (and non-Mormons) who like to think the Word of Wisdom means more and may have even received answers to prayers on it. But, answers to prayers are for individuals, not for the general population.

so then there isnt anything about eating or not eating meat or how much to eat in doctrine?

Also, I can understand the caffeine issue (as well as some others) with coffee, but why is tea prohibited? And what kind? Theres a lot of different teas black, green, some arent even technically tea "plants" such as Rooibos is actually a nettle plant/bush..

Are these hard and fast rules? Would being an avid tea drinker prevent me from being endowed to enter the temple?

[M_T_E]

The correct answer is 'nice Jeep' is an oxymoron.

Jeep proudly stands for Just Empty Every Pocket, my 5.9L can have its moments but Ilve it anyways. Even if i get only 12mpg... :)

[estradling75]

so then there isnt anything about eating or not eating meat or how much to eat in doctrine?

Also, I can understand the caffeine issue (as well as some others) with coffee, but why is tea prohibited? And what kind? Theres a lot of different teas black, green, some arent even technically tea "plants" such as Rooibos is actually a nettle plant/bush..

Are these hard and fast rules? Would being an avid tea drinker prevent me from being endowed to enter the temple?

Caffeine is not, (although many members like to think that it is). The hard and fast list is Alcohol, Tobacco, Coffee, Tea (from the tea plant... but not herbals that are not), and harmful/illegal drugs.

The reason is simple because God through is prophets has said so. But that doesn't stop many members from advancing their own ideas and theories (like the caffeine one)

To be baptized you will need to agree to live by the above listed restrictions and it is a requirement to enter the temple.

[Hyena]

Caffeine is not, (although many members like to think that it is). The hard and fast list is Alcohol, Tobacco, Coffee, Tea (from the tea plant... but not herbals that are not), and harmful/illegal drugs.

The reason is simple because God through is prophets has said so. But that doesn't stop many members from advancing their own ideas and theories (like the caffeine one)

To be baptized you will need to agree to live by the above listed restrictions and it is a requirement to enter the temple.

So there is no actual reason for the prohibition of these things only that is decreed by the prophets? It is just one of those things we must take on faith I guess. Which is fine. I've never been a coffee drinker or alcohol drinker to begin with apart from an occasional margarita. Is there a list of what constitutes an acceptable tea?

[skippy740]

An acceptable tea is one that does not contain tea leaves such as black or green tea.

Herbal teas are generally acceptable.

Now, you don't have to get rid of any non-ingested products - such as shaving lotion that contains green tea. (I have some of that.) I just don't drink it.

In fact verse 7 outlines this:

D&C 89:7

7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

Even verse 8 talks about the proper use of tobacco:

8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

There is a purpose for these things, just not for "the belly".

[M_T_E]

So there is no actual reason for the prohibition of these things only that is decreed by the prophets? It is just one of those things we must take on faith I guess. Which is fine. I've never been a coffee drinker or alcohol drinker to begin with apart from an occasional margarita. Is there a list of what constitutes an acceptable tea?

Well the prophets are the voice of God...

[etaks10]

I have never in 55 years heard anyone define "sparingly".

Sparingly Explained

Again, sparing is a good word. It means "sparing Gods creatures." It is to be used with thanksgiving and not with gluttony, which is one of the national weaknesses.

You have a right to meat, according to the 49th section of the Doctrine and Covenants. The family who needs a deer to get through the winter have a right to that. The Lord will not deny them, but He is also pleased with those who forbear. They can eat meat only in times of starvation, winter, cold, famine. "Starve" means to die of cold as well as of famine.

Hugh Nibley.

Here are a few more quotes and scriptures to elaborate a little more.

JST Gen. 9:11 And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.

D&C 49:21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

D&C 89:15 And these(animals) hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

In summary, sparingly is to spare the animal unless needed to save life.

[etaks10]

Following correct principles when slaughtering animals and consuming meat will bless the lives of the members in many ways just as all of God's teachings.

(I think I'm saying the same thing you are...)

Yup i agree with that. I think we disagree on what the correct principles are. I think the basic principle is only eat meat to preserve or save life as in times of famine as discussed before. When do you think it's appropriate to eat meat?

[Hyena]

An acceptable tea is one that does not contain tea leaves such as black or green tea.

Herbal teas are generally acceptable.

Now, you don't have to get rid of any non-ingested products - such as shaving lotion that contains green tea. (I have some of that.) I just don't drink it.

Thanks! Those quotes helped a great deal too in my understanding. :)

Well the prophets are the voice of God...

Yes, they are. And I suppose all things considered, I'm not really one for demanding that God explain why he wants me to do things his way. After all, just like my Earthly father, sometimes I just had to do what he wanted because "he said so" and trust that it's in my best interest.

I'm gonna really miss green tea. It's almost part of my daily regimen. I drink maybe two to three cups a day

[beefche]

Sparingly Explained

Again, sparing is a good word. It means "sparing Gods creatures." It is to be used with thanksgiving and not with gluttony, which is one of the national weaknesses.

You have a right to meat, according to the 49th section of the Doctrine and Covenants. The family who needs a deer to get through the winter have a right to that. The Lord will not deny them, but He is also pleased with those who forbear. They can eat meat only in times of starvation, winter, cold, famine. "Starve" means to die of cold as well as of famine.

Hugh Nibley.

Here are a few more quotes and scriptures to elaborate a little more.

JST Gen. 9:11 And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.

D&C 49:21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

D&C 89:15 And these(animals) hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

In summary, sparingly is to spare the animal unless needed to save life.

As noted previously, this is one man's interpretation. The prophets and Church has not made such a notice of sparingly. That is left up to the individual.

[Maureen]

so then there isnt anything about eating or not eating meat or how much to eat in doctrine?

Also, I can understand the caffeine issue (as well as some others) with coffee, but why is tea prohibited? And what kind? Theres a lot of different teas black, green, some arent even technically tea "plants" such as Rooibos is actually a nettle plant/bush..

Are these hard and fast rules? Would being an avid tea drinker prevent me from being endowed to enter the temple?

Hyena, here is some information on how the introduction to the Word of Wisdom came about:

"When they assembled together in this room after breakfast, the first they did was to light their pipes, and, while smoking, talk about the great things of the kingdom, and spit all over the room, and as soon as the pipe was out of their mouths a large chew of tobacco would then be taken. Often when the Prophet [Joseph Smith] entered the room to give the school instructions he would find himself in a cloud of tobacco smoke. This, and the complaints of his wife at having to clean so filthy a floor, made the Prophet think upon the matter, and he inquired of the Lord relating to the conduct of the Elders in using tobacco, and the revelation known as the Word of Wisdom was the result of his inquiry."[3] (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol 12, pg 158)

Word of Wisdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My understanding with the inclusion of coffee and tea, came about because since the men seemed to feel singled out with their alcohol and tobacco, they thought it only fair for the women to sacrifice their coffee and tea also.

M.

[pam]

Maureen, I mean no disrespect. I have never in all my years heard anything about there being a gender thing going on in regards to coffee and tea. Since this is an "investigator" thread basically, we need to make sure we are providing true and accurate information.

So...do you have any references for that? :)

[Guest]

My understanding as an active member with a testimony of the WoW, is that anything brewed from any type of tea leaf is off limits. "Herbal tea" is a misnomer... they are actually herbal infusions. Those are allowed, tea is not.

Still, there seems to be a question with some abut green tea. My BIL uses it. My bishop is okay with green tea as a weight loss supplement. To me, tea is tea is tea; but in your case, Hyena, that would be a great thing to ask missionaries or the bishop of your local ward. Even more important though is putting it to prayer. For instance, even though my bishop gave me the okay, I Don' t feel good about it so I don't use it, and I feel peace in my spirit about that.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Eowyn

[Vort]

My understanding with the inclusion of coffee and tea, came about because since the men seemed to feel singled out with their alcohol and tobacco, they thought it only fair for the women to sacrifice their coffee and tea also.

I've never heard anything even approaching this before. Do you have a source? As someone who believes the revelation was the will and voice of God, I doubt he meant to provide any "tit for tat".

[Hyena]

Hyena, here is some information on how the introduction to the Word of Wisdom came about:

"When they assembled together in this room after breakfast, the first they did was to light their pipes, and, while smoking, talk about the great things of the kingdom, and spit all over the room, and as soon as the pipe was out of their mouths a large chew of tobacco would then be taken. Often when the Prophet [Joseph Smith] entered the room to give the school instructions he would find himself in a cloud of tobacco smoke. This, and the complaints of his wife at having to clean so filthy a floor, made the Prophet think upon the matter, and he inquired of the Lord relating to the conduct of the Elders in using tobacco, and the revelation known as the Word of Wisdom was the result of his inquiry."[3] (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol 12, pg 158)

Word of Wisdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My understanding with the inclusion of coffee and tea, came about because since the men seemed to feel singled out with their alcohol and tobacco, they thought it only fair for the women to sacrifice their coffee and tea also.

M.

Thank you for the information. But I have to ask for some clarification as well...

I don't mean to be offensive, and please understand this question comes from someone who will in all likelihood be a new member within a matter of months. But as someone from the outside looking in, it does beg the question, just if only to educate myself out of my ignorance:

If this is how the Prophet Joseph Smith came to pass on that God urges the prohibition of coffee, tea, and tobacco... then my question is two fold:

A.) Isn't this contradictory to the Bible wherein Jesus declared all foods clean in Mark 7:19. Didn't God also explain this to Peter that all formerly unclean animals and plants could be ingested in Acts 10:15 where it says specifically, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." So did God change his mind? Or is that something mistranslated in the king james bible and not subject to LDS teachings?

and

B.) Not intending to be glib, but isn't it a tad bit convenient that Joseph Smith solved what could arguably be a personal issue (he and his wife's dislike of all the smoke filled rooms with tobacco all over the floor) by miraculously returning after a conversation with God suddenly prohibiting these activities? That's like me finding the task of mowing the lawn every Saturday tedious and off-putting as well as weekly flaring up of my allergies from the fresh cut plants and then telling my parents that I was told through prayer that the Lord no longer wished us to mow down the grass that he makes grow in front of our house every week. I'm just trying to understand why there'd be this contradiction and then the decision based around these writings from Brigham Young himself? Again, not trying to insult anyone or start a fight... I'm just trying to understand on the same level as those of you with 100% faith. I want to be where you are.

[Maureen]

Maureen, I mean no disrespect. I have never in all my years heard anything about there being a gender thing going on in regards to coffee and tea. Since this is an "investigator" thread basically, we need to make sure we are providing true and accurate information.

So...do you have any references for that? :)

Pam, this is what I found:

David Whitmer, a prominent Mormon in the 1830’s became disaffected from the Church and years later gave his own version of the origin of the revelation:

…quite a little party of the brethren and sisters being assembled in Smith’s house. Some of the men were excessive chewers of the filthy weed, and their disgusting slobbering and spitting caused Mrs. Smith…to make the ironical remark that “It would be a good thing if a revelation could be had declaring the use of tobacco a sin, and commanding its suppression.” The matter was taken up and joked about, one of the brethren suggested that the revelation should also provide for a total abstinence from the tea and coffee drinking, intending this a counter dig at the sisters. Sure enough the subject was afterward taken up in dead earnest, and the ‘Word of Wisdom’ was the result.51

(51 Des Moines Daily News [Des Moines, Iowa], October 16, 1886)

Although Whitmer obviously did not accept this and many other later revelations as inspired, his statement agrees basically with Brigham Young’s explanation. Both concluded that a contemporary situation or problem caused the Prophet to seek further knowledge and obtain more conclusive information on the subject. Young obviously represented the traditional Church viewpoint by implying Joseph’s source of knowledge as Deity, while Whitmer inferred a less divine origin. Both explanations are quite compatible with McBrien’s position, and many Mormons see nothing inconsistent in accepting both interpretations by believing that it was characteristic of Joseph Smith to seek enlightenment on a subject by way of communication with God only after he had some personal experience or problem with it.

(An historical analysis of the Word of Wisdom: A thesis presented to the Dept. of History BYU by Paul H. Peterson, August 1972)

M.

[etaks10]

As noted previously, this is one man's interpretation. The prophets and Church has not made such a notice of sparingly. That is left up to the individual.

True, it is Mr. Nibley's observation of what what sparingly means. But, you skipped over the more important parts of the post and those are the scriptures themselves. Here they are again

JST Gen. 9:11 And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.

D&C 49:21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

D&C 89:15 And these(animals) hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

How do you interpret these scriptures?

Here is another opinion on the matter to back up the words of Hugh Nibley.

[President Lorenzo Snow] introduced the subject of the Word of Wisdom, expressing the opinion that it was violated as much or more in the improper use of meat as in other things, and thought the time was near at hand when the Latter-day Saints should be taught to refrain from meat eating and the shedding of animal blood.

-History of the Church Journal

[Dravin]

Thank you for the information. But I have to ask for some clarification as well...

I don't mean to be offensive, and please understand this question comes from someone who will in all likelihood be a new member within a matter of months. But as someone from the outside looking in, it does beg the question, just if only to educate myself out of my ignorance:

For the record Maureen is on the outside looking in, she's not LDS.

[beefche]

True, it is Mr. Nibley's observation of what what sparingly means. But, you skipped over the more important parts of the post and those are the scriptures themselves. Here they are again

JST Gen. 9:11 And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.

D&C 49:21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

D&C 89:15 And these(animals) hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

How do you interpret these scriptures?

Here is another opinion on the matter to back up the words of Hugh Nibley.

[President Lorenzo Snow] introduced the subject of the Word of Wisdom, expressing the opinion that it was violated as much or more in the improper use of meat as in other things, and thought the time was near at hand when the Latter-day Saints should be taught to refrain from meat eating and the shedding of animal blood.

-History of the Church Journal

I don't think you understand my point. How I interpret the scriptures is for me. How Hugh Nibly interprets the scriptures is for him. That doesn't mean I can't gain some understanding from others interpretations, but we certainly can't expect to hold others accountable for our own perspectives and revelation.

[Guest]

I wouldn't call a quote from a disaffected Mormon out of a Des Moines newspaper a very reliable source.

I would ask Hyena, is Heavenly Father more likely or less likely to answer a question that hasn't been asked? I think a lot of revelations have come because someone asked a question, and I think they don't come to those questions on accident. Everything comes line upon line and at the right time.