The lost concept of marriage.

[Traveler]

Marriage was defined anciently as a covenant of oneness or wholeness. Some think that love defines that which is whole therefore they think that any combination of love is whole and complete. This is the misunderstanding. The scriptures tell us that a man and a woman become one flesh. This is the oneness and completeness.

In science one of the definitions of something that is alive or living is something that can reproduce. There is only one kind of “living” or alive marriage by definition. That is the marriage (one whole or complete flesh) that defines the core elements of reproduction of life. Without that core a, marriage cannot be whole and the two are not “one”. If a society divorces its self from the necessity of wholeness it will end in one generation.

The Traveler

[sister_in_faith]

I'm assuming we are talking about same sex marrages here, but the way you put it alarmed me a little bit.

I'm 28 years old (some would say young) and I have brain cancer. Because of my health problems I do not think I will ever have children. There are other people who have other health issues which causes them (due to no fault of their own) to not be able to reproduce. If we are going to say that, "There is only one kind of “living” or alive marriage by definition. That is the marriage (one whole or complete flesh) that defines the core elements of reproduction of life. Without that core a, marriage cannot be whole and the two are not “one”." Then I think we are taking away something from innocent people for no reason. I see no reason that I cannot be married and love my husband with the same love as another woman, who is healthy, has for her husband. Even more, does this mean that I cannot enjoy temple marrage, sealing, the joys of being a wife, exhaltation etc? I'm sure you did not mean any offense, and none is taken, I am just trying to illustrate that we cannot break this down into being so elimintal as reproduction vs sterile.

=)

[Justice]

God allows for such. Choice has always been part of the equation. To say, "I cannot have children, but I would if I could," is very different than being involved in a relationship, by choice, where the ability is there but it is impossible because it does not include both male and female.

I like Traveler's definition because in many places the word "perfect" in the scriptures should actually be interpreted whole or complete.

Keep in mind that a man and woman who have physical problems that prevent them from having children here on earth will be able to after the resurrection, if worthy. Those involved in same sex relations will not be able to even after the resurrection.

[Moksha]

Without that core a, marriage cannot be whole and the two are not “one”. If a society divorces its self from the necessity of wholeness it will end in one generation.

The Traveler

Turning in an ever widening gyre, the falcon cannot hear the falconer. The center cannot hold and mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.

[Elgama]

Marriage is more than about being one physically - there is also the spirits, the emotions etc anyone can produce a child, you don't need to be married to do that, its much harder to be one in marriage than that,

I know many valiant couples who struggle or cannot have children, they like one friend said maybe don't need that challenge in this life.

-Charley

Edited December 17, 2008 by Elgama

[Traveler]

I'm assuming we are talking about same sex marrages here, but the way you put it alarmed me a little bit.

I'm 28 years old (some would say young) and I have brain cancer. Because of my health problems I do not think I will ever have children. There are other people who have other health issues which causes them (due to no fault of their own) to not be able to reproduce. If we are going to say that, "There is only one kind of “living” or alive marriage by definition. That is the marriage (one whole or complete flesh) that defines the core elements of reproduction of life. Without that core a, marriage cannot be whole and the two are not “one”." Then I think we are taking away something from innocent people for no reason. I see no reason that I cannot be married and love my husband with the same love as another woman, who is healthy, has for her husband. Even more, does this mean that I cannot enjoy temple marrage, sealing, the joys of being a wife, exhaltation etc? I'm sure you did not mean any offense, and none is taken, I am just trying to illustrate that we cannot break this down into being so elimintal as reproduction vs sterile.

=)

I am not sure that you understand the meaning of whole. No one person can be whole in marriage. The wholeness comes from two with a single covenant. It is the understanding of that covenant and the core elements of that covenant that is important.

Anyone that has had any kind of a relationship with another human knows that men and women are different. The relationship a daughter has to a mother is different than with her father and the same with a son with his father and mother. It is a difficult process to learn to forge a whole relationship between the sexes. But we are not whole or complete without it. I do not believe it is about the individual and their limitations as much as it is about personal sacrifice for the greatest good, which could be different than a greater but lesser than greatest good. And that society that fails to support and encourage completeness and wholeness in marriage cannot endure and there is no “reason” or argument that it will guarantee another generation will follow without a commitment, resolution and effort in society specific to that end. It is not just about individual marriages but the role of society in fostering wholeness and a continuing generation that defines a lasting society more than any other factor. (Which is by definition is the survival of the species).

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

Marriage was defined anciently as a covenant of oneness or wholeness. Some think that love defines that which is whole therefore they think that any combination of love is whole and complete. This is the misunderstanding. The scriptures tell us that a man and a woman become one flesh. This is the oneness and completeness.

The Traveler

I do think it goes beyond what is being provided here since the story of Adam's rib is the indicator of what was before man and how first man was formed.

Hypothetical: [generalizing] what happens if you could look back eons ago before this universe was even formed, to a place where Eternal Beings greater than our own FATHER, cloned the first Adam [meaning first] or physical human? Reading Genesis as a pattern of the story given, there was no male or female but a single being. I know we are told in the Temple he was a male but I would leaves this impression, he was not. Being instructed over-time by these Eternal Beings, including awareness and the capacity of learning within the given sphere, they felt it was not good for this Adam to be alone. What was a 100-percent human life was now split into two Adams. Splitting them into two opposite character and personality but together is the same Adam. Now, reversing that splitting of Adam, if they could be joined back together, they are one Adam again. Could this Adam have progeny? For our eternal progression, it is not good for us to be alone. For this cause, we have companionship until when? Are we heading back to that beginning of Adam? It is a ponderous thought here.

Even in our universe I do believe is filled with more than one GOD or FATHER/MOTHER as they converge and create life after their own image from lower intelligences that are progressing. When gloried, we are joined in that same unison as one voice, one cause, in bringing about the same offspring and increasing the glory of who? Our FATHER! HIS FATHER! HIS FATHER! And so forth…in eternal progression. Now if I am on the outside of this universe and have that eternal capacity in hearing and discerning voices, I would only hear one voice coming from that single atom [universe] vice from the inside of this universe could discern thousands perhaps millions of voices. As it with a single intelligence or the ‘I AM’ in a soul, I can speak with one voice but within that sphere called the brain, there are millions of intelligence who honor and give glory to that single ‘I AM’ that controls the soul. Strange? Perhaps….

[funkymonkey]

I know many valiant couples who struggle or cannot have children, they like one friend said maybe don't need that challenge in this life.

-Charley

Charley, I know that you didn't mean any harm by this statement. But I just gotta say...Not being able to have children is a HUGE challenge in itself; a challenge that only those in their shoes can understand.

[bert10]

Hi Sister in faith...

The question is ....do you wish to have children? without the vision there can be no hope and without hope there is no faith in that area.

--------------------------------------------

Now dealing with the Covenant of Marriage there is inside the cup versus the outside of the cup.

The Oness referred to in this post...deals with Unity of Love. Which is what Unifies us to Christ.

Just know....that when two hearts beats as one they also speaks as one. Whatsoever they ask of GOD they will receive.

This love is mighty and it will help any couple stop Satan from destroying the peace of the home. There is more on this.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Moving Mountains....

I highly recommend watching FACING the GIANTS....it is an excellent movie based on reality that shows how to overcome the things that the world put in our path. By using Faith and praise.

Through a series of miracles the team makes state...and In the end of the movie David the littlest guy on the team...well you will have to watch it.

Peace be unto you

bert10

I'm assuming we are talking about same sex marrages here, but the way you put it alarmed me a little bit.

I'm 28 years old (some would say young) and I have brain cancer. Because of my health problems I do not think I will ever have children. There are other people who have other health issues which causes them (due to no fault of their own) to not be able to reproduce. If we are going to say that, "There is only one kind of “living” or alive marriage by definition. That is the marriage (one whole or complete flesh) that defines the core elements of reproduction of life. Without that core a, marriage cannot be whole and the two are not “one”." Then I think we are taking away something from innocent people for no reason. I see no reason that I cannot be married and love my husband with the same love as another woman, who is healthy, has for her husband. Even more, does this mean that I cannot enjoy temple marrage, sealing, the joys of being a wife, exhaltation etc? I'm sure you did not mean any offense, and none is taken, I am just trying to illustrate that we cannot break this down into being so elimintal as reproduction vs sterile.

=)

Edited December 17, 2008 by bert10

[Elphaba]

Oh, dear. Who's going to water my Chia Pet once we're all gone?

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Hi Sister in faith...

The question is ....do you wish to have children? without the vision there can be no hope and without hope there is no faith in that area.

--------------------------------------------

Now dealing with the Covenant of Marriage there is inside the cup versus the outside of the cup.

The Oness referred to in this post...deals with Unity of Love. Which is what Unifies us to Christ.

Just know....that when two hearts beats as one they also speaks as one. Whatsoever they ask of GOD they will receive.

This love is mighty and it will help any couple stop Satan from destroying the peace of the home. There is more on this.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Moving Mountains....

I highly recommend watching FACING the GIANTS....it is an excellent movie based on reality that shows how to overcome the things that the world put in our path. By using Faith and praise.

Through a series of miracles the team makes state...and In the end of the movie David the littlest guy on the team...well you will have to watch it.

Peace be unto you

bert10

This has got to be one of the all-time most insensitive posts I've ever read.

I have no doubt you didn't mean it to be. But, wow, bert, it's really bad.

Elphaba

[FunkyTown]

Oh, dear. Who's going to water my Chia Pet once we're all gone?

Elphaba

Me Phabs!

I'm immortal. I've been doing an experiment for over 30 years, which is longer than most experiments. I haven't died yet!

[MarginOfError]

Me Phabs!

I'm immortal. I've been doing an experiment for over 30 years, which is longer than most experiments. I haven't died yet!

Statistically speaking, you're not immortal...you're right censored

[MarginOfError]

I do think it goes beyond what is being provided here since the story of Adam's rib is the indicator of what was before man and how first man was formed.

Hypothetical: [generalizing] what happens if you could look back eons ago before this universe was even formed, to a place where Eternal Beings greater than our own FATHER, cloned the first Adam [meaning first] or physical human? Reading Genesis as a pattern of the story given, there was no male or female but a single being. I know we are told in the Temple he was a male but I would leaves this impression, he was not. Being instructed over-time by these Eternal Beings, including awareness and the capacity of learning within the given sphere, they felt it was not good for this Adam to be alone. What was a 100-percent human life was now split into two Adams. Splitting them into two opposite character and personality but together is the same Adam. Now, reversing that splitting of Adam, if they could be joined back together, they are one Adam again. Could this Adam have progeny? For our eternal progression, it is not good for us to be alone. For this cause, we have companionship until when? Are we heading back to that beginning of Adam? It is a ponderous thought here.

Even in our universe I do believe is filled with more than one GOD or FATHER/MOTHER as they converge and create life after their own image from lower intelligences that are progressing. When gloried, we are joined in that same unison as one voice, one cause, in bringing about the same offspring and increasing the glory of who? Our FATHER! HIS FATHER! HIS FATHER! And so forth…in eternal progression. Now if I am on the outside of this universe and have that eternal capacity in hearing and discerning voices, I would only hear one voice coming from that single atom [universe] vice from the inside of this universe could discern thousands perhaps millions of voices. As it with a single intelligence or the ‘I AM’ in a soul, I can speak with one voice but within that sphere called the brain, there are millions of intelligence who honor and give glory to that single ‘I AM’ that controls the soul. Strange? Perhaps….

Or could it be that taking the rib from Adam was a symbolic way to make the statement that Adam would never be complete without Eve?

[Elgama]

Charley, I know that you didn't mean any harm by this statement. But I just gotta say...Not being able to have children is a HUGE challenge in itself; a challenge that only those in their shoes can understand.

its the friend who had many challenges having children desired them for years and had the chance completely taken away from her who recently said it -

-Charley

[Justice]

you don't need to be married to do that

You will in the eternities.

[Hemidakota]

Or could it be that taking the rib from Adam was a symbolic way to make the statement that Adam would never be complete without Eve?

Same dialog if one had both gender and alone in its sphere. The answer to that, “It is not good for Adam being alone.” This was strange since Adam; immature in knowledge and awareness of it surrounding, did not know it was alone. It was suggestive from them that created Adam. However, I do believe, there is a story being told here with symbolic connotation.

[FunkyTown]

Statistically speaking, you're not immortal...you're right censored

:mad:Some things take more than reason. We can't all live on logic, Spock!

I can prove I'm immortal. Watch: Complete Scientific proof.

There! Still living. There's no evidence I'll ever die. Stop trying to scare me, Moe!

[Hemidakota]

Man..what ever happen to the laugh button when you need it.

[Elgama]

You will in the eternities.

you need to be sealed for time and all eternity - legal till death do us part marriage doesn't count.

-Charley

[ruthiechan]

you need to be sealed for time and all eternity - legal till death do us part marriage doesn't count.

-Charley

I think he meant, "you will need to be married in the eternities to do that."

[Prodigal_Son]

...Because of my health problems I do not think I will ever have children... I'm sure you did not mean any offense, and none is taken, I am just trying to illustrate that we cannot break this down into being so elimintal as reproduction vs sterile...

I think you're zooming in a little to close with your microscope. This applies simply to the general concept of MAN + WOMAN = PROPER MARRIAGE .

Reading Genesis as a pattern of the story given, there was no male or female but a single being. I know we are told in the Temple he was a male but I would leaves this impression, he was not.

I'm confused here. How does this concept apply to the following:

All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

Not arguing. Just not seeing how those two concepts can coexist together.