Are we missing the simplicity of the gospel?

[hordak]

I have noticed a lot of threads lately pertaining to trolls or people being shocked by varying opinions by LDS members on different subjects. This got me wondering how much of these squabbles actually pertain to the gospel and doctrine itself(I.E. Christ died for our sins, the first principles are faith ,repentance, baptism, gift of the holy ghost etc.) and how much is simply differing opinions on life and church culture in general?( I.E. We don't drink caffeine in Utah, only one piece bathing suits are appropriate, living together before marriage is wrong etc.)

Are we missing the the simplicity of the gospel?

Note: I believe discussions on church culture "liven up" the site but believe it is import to understand the difference it and doctrine. Particularly when having a disagreement.

[LittleWyvern]

LDS culture and actual LDS doctrine are often hard to separate, especially in a monolithic culture area such as Utah. While it would be nice if people honestly wanted to know about our basic points of doctrine, most questions about the LDS faith come from the most visible part: the culture.

So while it may seem like we may be ignoring doctrine, it's just that the doctrine is not as... controversial, I guess.

[Connie]

Yes, i believe many of us are missing the simplicity of the gospel. And the simplicity is this... FOLLOW THE PROPHET!

[hordak]

LDS culture and actual LDS doctrine are often hard to separate, especially in a monolithic culture area such as Utah. While it would be nice if people honestly wanted to know about our basic points of doctrine, most questions about the LDS faith come from the most visible part: the culture.

So while it may seem like we may be ignoring doctrine, it's just that the doctrine is not as... controversial, I guess.

Actually i was referring to discussions between members and members but you do bring up a good point.

[LittleWyvern]

Actually i was referring to discussions between members and members but you do bring up a good point.

Ah, then perhaps my points stand but in a slightly different fashion. It just may be that we all understand the doctrine, and understand the theoretical points of the Gospel. The controversies come by people interpreting the theoretical points differently in practice, and usually both say that their interpretation is the right one. There's really no room for debate on general concepts, but how we should incorporate these concepts into our general lives is a very debatable subject.

And... I suppose that a forum environment is more of a natural setting for debates than sermons. Perhaps a voice environment (ventrilo?) would be better for discussing gospel points.

[hordak]

There's really no room for debate on general concepts, but how we should incorporate these concepts into our general lives is a very debatable subject.

And... I suppose that a forum environment is more of a natural setting for debates than sermons. .

Bingo.

[Kirajo]

I agree completely. I've posted this particular Blog Post of mine before but it goes along hand in hand with what you're saying :)

Give More-Worry Less: Simplicity-A Spiritual Thought by Me!

[Islander]

It appears to me that within LDS theology the doctrinal debate is small and short lived. Some members, erroneously, succumb to the bias of their own personal history and experience to support a position may be "off center" from stated doctrine. I have seen some very animated exchanges about the WoW, temple marriage and others. However, beyond very creative arguments and interpretations, I doubt very much such arguments would stand close scrutiny with a GA in the room.

The doctrine is there for all to read. The theology has been discussed at length and over nearly 200 years the same questions remain in the minds of some. There is really, nothing new in the human experience that would require a re-interpretation of the doctrine. But some simply insist the spirit of the law is irrelevant since the letter of the law does not codify thus it does not apply; to them.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is beautiful in its transparency and plainness of words. It is our bias (opinions), preconceived ideas and notions, our desires and individual aspirations that add complexity to the word of God.

[Maxel]

Ah, then perhaps my points stand but in a slightly different fashion. It just may be that we all understand the doctrine, and understand the theoretical points of the Gospel. The controversies come by people interpreting the theoretical points differently in practice, and usually both say that their interpretation is the right one. There's really no room for debate on general concepts, but how we should incorporate these concepts into our general lives is a very debatable subject.

QFT.

And... I suppose that a forum environment is more of a natural setting for debates than sermons. Perhaps a voice environment (ventrilo?) would be better for discussing gospel points.

Also QFT. And, to say that ventrilo works wonderfully although I'm not quite if initiating some kind of voice system would be, overall, beneficial. I know I myself need the time and opportunity that comes from typing to rephrase, re-edit, re-evaluate, and rethink my answers before posting the final product. IRL I'm prone to hotheaded, quick judgments of people's actions, which is a character fault I can compensate for in a written medium.

I don't want to offend anyone- I'm scared I would if a voice system were integrated. However, I think that's a discussion for a different thread.

[Misshalfway]

I actually think that the gospel itself is simple....but the task of internalizing that gospel something else entirely. I think it IS difficult because we often mis-think that our following of the prophets or following of the Spirit will not lead us into difficult roads. So much of our earth experience is about imperfection and learning how to deal with imperfection. I mean, the church is imperfect. People are imperfect! WE are imperfect! So easy to look at others and judge how they have missed the boat. And so easy also to get caught in the current of popular opinion and philosophy and arrogance.

The gospel is plain.....but only to those who have eyes to see. God WILL blind the minds of those who aren't ready for the truth or those who choose the lesser part the world has to offer. All the more reason to let our light shine and knowing the proper ways of doing that. We can judge right from wrong, but we can't always be accurate when we judge another. So the real trick of the gospel is learning to deal in love with ALL the imperfection we must deal with here on the earth....and then to do so in a Christlike refining path and will change US as we deal properly. How we deal with others and the imperfection they bring with them and the imperfect situations that come too, is a reflection of who WE are.....not anyone or anything else. Isn't this what the scriptures point us to when we are counseled to stand immovable and firm? Christ had every adversity....yet he was the great "I AM". State of being.....not state of doing.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Guest tomk]

I have noticed a lot of threads lately pertaining to trolls or people being shocked by varying opinions by LDS members on different subjects. This got me wondering how much of these squabbles actually pertain to the gospel and doctrine itself(I.E. Christ died for our sins, the first principles are faith ,repentance, baptism, gift of the holy ghost etc.) and how much is simply differing opinions on life and church culture in general?( I.E. We don't drink caffeine in Utah, only one piece bathing suits are appropriate, living together before marriage is wrong etc.)

Are we missing the the simplicity of the gospel?

Note: I believe discussions on church culture "liven up" the site but believe it is import to understand the difference it and doctrine. Particularly when having a disagreement.

You bring up an excellent point.

The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel, particularly the Gift of the Holy Ghost (Christ's "Voice") are the core of the Gospel. We must also receive and keep Temple covenants. Most importantly we must BECOME as Christ is, through the Atonement.

The rest is just fluff. :) Interesting fluff, to be sure, but still just fluff. :)

Many of the early Saints could not even read or write. Yet this was no barrier to their receiving their exaltation. Something to think about! Obedience is the Key.

I think discussing the "meatier" aspects of the Gospel is valuable. But it must be done in the right spirit and with the correct intent.

[LittleWyvern]

QFT.

If you like my quote so much, I feel a little compelled to expound upon it.

Let's take a general concept: charity. Unconditional love for others. Pure love of Christ. If you ask any LDS church member what charity as a concept means, they'll probably all tell you the same answer. So, the concepts are generally understood.

If you ask the same group of people how they incorporate charity in their lives, you'll get an amount of answers roughly equal to the size of the group. When somebody takes an abstract principle and implements it in their lives, the exact procedure will be different than anybody else. This is what is usually up for debate here on the forums.

The problem I see with doing that, though, is most of the time there's really no right or wrong answer as far as the implementation is concerned. So, we could debate how best to be charitable in our lives but it's really opinion vs. opinion and it doesn't really help either person.

This same argument can be extended to other abstract concepts, like modesty, but for the sake of not getting into that argument I mention nothing more of it.

[applepansy]

I appreciate this discussion. I agree that gospel principles are simple and how we apply them is complicated because we each apply them in our lives in different ways.

I would like to add the concept of "line upon line, and precept on precept" into this discussion on the simplicity of the gospel. I believe we are all at a different "level" of understanding based on our personal understanding and experiences. I also think it can be difficult to communicate when we are communicating from different levels of understanding and experience.

I appreciate learning from other peoples experiences. It helps me understand better. I humbly hope that my experiences can be useful to someone else.

I believe the objectives of most people who post here come from a place of caring. What I can't wrap my mind around is ignoring or dismissing things our Prophet and First Presidency have approved as doctrine.

I hope that we can continue to find common ground without compromising truth.

applepansy

[Guest tomk]

In the end....these things are taught from God to man through personal revelation.

This has nothing to do with complexity of the topic at hand. God must reveal ALL of it to us -- from something as simple as a testimony of prayer to "deeper" topics like the Atonement and the role intelligences play. God must reveal it to us. Until He does, any topic, no matter how simple, remains a mystery.

[Palerider]

Its always easy to sit on the side or in the back and complain. We should all try to live the Gospel Principles....we get caught up in the petty things, that don't really mean alot. Gospel Principles is where its at. As I mentioned before....I don't care how many wives anyone had....I don't care whether someone says I am a Christian......Gospel Principles....always remember the song.....Come Follow me the Savior said....

[Moksha]

If you ask the same group of people how they incorporate charity in their lives, you'll get an amount of answers roughly equal to the size of the group. When somebody takes an abstract principle and implements it in their lives, the exact procedure will be different than anybody else.

That is sort of like if you stack 10 economists on top of each other you cannot reach a conclusion, but if you stack 1000 economists together you just end up with a gooey mess.

[Dove]

I have noticed a lot of threads lately pertaining to trolls or people being shocked by varying opinions by LDS members on different subjects. This got me wondering how much of these squabbles actually pertain to the gospel and doctrine itself(I.E. Christ died for our sins, the first principles are faith ,repentance, baptism, gift of the holy ghost etc.) and how much is simply differing opinions on life and church culture in general?( I.E. We don't drink caffeine in Utah, only one piece bathing suits are appropriate, living together before marriage is wrong etc.)

Are we missing the the simplicity of the gospel?

Ooouuwch!

I fell like the guilty party!

Yes, I have been quite outspoken about Trolls of late, especially when I was the unknowing victim of believing one Trolls story. That got my dander up, and I was ready to "run them out of town." And no, this has nothing to do with the doctrines of the gospel, other than whether or not my actions were Christlike in how I chose to deal with them.....

I also feel like the guilty party on the other points you brought up. I do believe I can shock other members by my "varied" opinion on things, like how I interpret church doctrine. And yes, I do believe I understand church doctrine quite well, but my history and experiences do have a great effect on how I interpret the living of it.

So, I'm Guilty, Guilty, Guilty......

I also believe I'm here seeking love and support and to love and support others in their quest of living the gospel.

I believe you don't know where I've come from (unless you've read my posts). The old saying comes to mind....walk a mile in someone elses' mocassins....

I also believe you don't understand the profound testimony I have of the gospel.

I realize what I'm saying sounds harsh, and may be out of place. It just hurts to feel like the guilty party here. Misunderstood and judged also come to mind.

I do feel like I've thoughtfully and sincerely written everyone of my posts without the intent to harm, but to contribute. If I have hurt anyone's feelings by what I've written in this post, I apologize.

All of us deal with the opposition of life, which to me is varied and complex. Life to me is truly a battleground, so much like the battles in the Book of Mormon. I'm glad to be here in the fight. I want my fight to be, like everyone else who is here in sincerity, for righteousness.

It's at times like this that I am so grateful to feel God's love~He know the intent of my heart and profoundly knows the history of my life. I am so grateful for how gently He leads me along those paths of righteousness....

Dove

Edited February 3, 2009 by Dove
Consideration for other's feelings

[LolaBella]

Yes, i believe many of us are missing the simplicity of the gospel. And the simplicity is this... FOLLOW THE PROPHET!

The Prophet is just a man and can make mistakes. If we are told to go away and pray abouit every single thing the prophet says, we could potentially get a different answer, making what theprophet says, not applicable to us. If we need to do this sometimes I wonder why we are even given specific counsel atall.

[hordak]

I have noticed a lot of threads lately pertaining to trolls or people being shocked by varying opinions by LDS members on different subjects. This got me wondering how much of these squabbles actually pertain to the gospel and doctrine itself(I.E. Christ died for our sins, the first principles are faith ,repentance, baptism, gift of the holy ghost etc.) and how much is simply differing opinions on life and church culture in general?( I.E. We don't drink caffeine in Utah, only one piece bathing suits are appropriate, living together before marriage is wrong etc.)

Are we missing the the simplicity of the gospel?

Ooouuwch!

I fell like the guilty party!

Yes, I have been quite outspoken about Trolls of late, especially when I was the unknowing victim of believing one Trolls story. That got my dander up, and I was ready to "run them out of town." And no, this has nothing to do with the doctrines of the gospel, other than whether or not my actions were Christlike in how I chose to deal with them.....

Dove

Actually my post was aimed at no one and everyone at the same time. I just wanted to point out that many of the differences in opinion are based on culture and not doctrine.And as Little Wyvern, and others have added, much stems for different applications of that doctrine and different spiritual places we are in.

I also feel like the guilty party on the other points you brought up. I do believe I can shock other members by my "varied" opinion on things, like how I interpret church doctrine.

Nothing wrong with that. If we didn't have that question nature/ varied opinions we would all be Catholic. (No offense Ceboo.)

I just think we all should understand these differences to avoid "hurt feelings" not the discussions themselves.

[Traveler]

Some of my thoughts:

1. We learn most from those with whom we disagree and little of value from those that flatter us.

2. Like sailors that only sail on calm seas our opinions cannot become seasoned and strong without real challenges.

3. If you judge your friends by their unconditional support of your views you will have no honest friends.

4. If your opinions cannot stand criticism why would you value them?

5. If you cannot discuss your opinions with someone that of a different opinion without becoming distracted in the difference rather than the value and substance of the discussion then you are the fault of any amenity between you.

Often on the forum I am not sure if a person really believes what they have said so I will ask a question to try to clarify what they really believe. If anyone has taken offense to my questions I apologize – I never intended offense. I have attempted to clarify values both with regards to myself and the persons I respect and honor with questions. I am aware that many will regard my questions as a personal affront or attack regardless of my intent. To that I respond with something I believe Benjamin Franklin said:

Only a fool would be offended by someone that meant to offend them but it would be more foolish to be offended by someone that did not mean any offense.

I would also put forth something said by Jesus the Christ (Luke 6:27-35) If you can only deal with those that love you – G-d is not impressed and you are not a follower of the teachings of Christ.

The Traveler

[Misshalfway]

Brilliant Traveler....simply brilliant!

[Guest Godless]

Agreed. I wish I could thank you multiple times for that post, Traveler.

[Dove]

Hordak,

I don't know why your post illicited such a strong response in me...I think I took it personally, which wasn't necessary on my part....

Sometimes it seems like finger pointing, imho, when one criticizes others on the forum. I took it personal when you were saying that some of us were missing the simplicity of the gospel. A few of your points, yes, could have directly applied to me~

I do appreciate the diversity that is brought here. I feel quite diverse from how a traditional LDS person might view things and react to things. Frankly, I always appreciate what other's bring to the table in their threads, unless they act as a troll, dishonest and out to destroy the LDS belief system here....

I appreciate your kindness in response to my rather overreaction in my thread. Like I said, I don't know why I responded so strongly. It must have hit a nerve. It is my problem.

Peace

[Hemidakota]

I have noticed a lot of threads lately pertaining to trolls or people being shocked by varying opinions by LDS members on different subjects. This got me wondering how much of these squabbles actually pertain to the gospel and doctrine itself(I.E. Christ died for our sins, the first principles are faith ,repentance, baptism, gift of the holy ghost etc.) and how much is simply differing opinions on life and church culture in general?( I.E. We don't drink caffeine in Utah, only one piece bathing suits are appropriate, living together before marriage is wrong etc.)

Are we missing the the simplicity of the gospel?

Note: I believe discussions on church culture "liven up" the site but believe it is import to understand the difference it and doctrine. Particularly when having a disagreement.

They have purpose, has the Anti-Christ has a purpose for this world.

"We don't drink caffeine in Utah [add this for hypocrisy quote] but we DO EAT IT IN LARGE QUANITIES OF CHOCOLATE MATERIAL."

And you wonder why when the Lord comes, which place receives the first sweeping of the broom.

[hordak]

Hordak,

I took it personal when you were saying that some of us were missing the simplicity of the gospel.

Peace

Let me clarify I most if not all are missing the simplicity of the gospel at/on one point or another. Look at Christ life. He came to earth, hung out with and served the lowest of society and taught the "Spirit" of the law while being harassed and questioned for not following the letter.