Hybrid Commandments?

[boyando]

Every commandment given to us, from our Father in Heaven, is for our own good. Some times when we hear the words of our Prophets, our hearts are pricked and we know that these words are just for me or this will enhance my life.

We are not all at the same place and don't all have the ability too live all of the commandments, right now. As we grow in the Gospel, we need to pick our own battles and decide for ourselves, what is most important thing to work on first. I will be the first to say that I have not yet reached a point, were giving up football watching on Sunday, is a fight that I need, right now.

I once heard this definition of the word sacrifice, and have adapted it as my own; sacrifice is giving up something good for something better.

So for all of you who are fighting the good fight and turning off the tube on Sundays, I salute you. You are better Men and Women than I am. As for me, I'm going to work on some of my other sins, first.

boyando

[LittleWyvern]

So if I play board games with my family on Sunday I'm sinning? Weird, this is the first time I've heard anything even remotely like that in however many years of learning about keeping the Sabbath Day holy. What else am I doing wrong now...

@Apple: I fully understand I have agency, but right now I'm only interested in the things I can do without sinning (in the style of John Winthrop).

EDIT: I'm still not trying to debate, I'm just really confused now.

*goes and reads more about spirit vs. letter*

EDIT2: Ok, for the sake of avoiding contention I'll just say this and leave.

My belief on this issue is that suggestions are not doctrinally binding. They're good suggestions, and I realize that one should follow them, but in this thread these suggestions have been used to bash people over the head with "Look! You're sinning by doing this! (quotes go here) I don't do this, etc." I've always been taught that new doctrine is ratified by the Twelve and submitted to the congregation. So, with regards to the Sabbath Day, I try to do things more to the spirit of the law rather than the letter, and use suggestions from church leaders that work for my unique situation. Some suggestions I don't follow to the letter (for example, our family played family games together). Yes, I know somebody below me will take this and use a quote to say what a horrible sinner I am for doing this, but please. I have my opinion, you have yours. Can we just agree to disagree?

Edited February 4, 2009 by LittleWyvern

[MorningStar]

I really struggle with keeping the Sabbath Day holy myself and determining what is OK and what is not, how to keep the kids occupied before they drive me insane, etc. I grew up with an active mom and a dad turned Atheist after being raised in the church. She couldn't tell him what he could do in his home on Sundays and I wasn't going to hide in my room while he watched TV - usually golfing, race car driving etc. Most of what I heard was what not to do on Sundays, but I felt like I never had enough examples of what I could do to fill up the time. It was great when I had something extra to do like firesides, baptisms to attend, but the day always felt long to me, often boring, and not really like a day of rest. I'm trying to make good habits in my family now and not make the Sabbath a day my kids dread. My husband family plays board games all day, which I think is nice, but I don't really feel like that's fully dedicating the day to the Lord, it's just a replacement for the usual stuff they're not doing.

[Connie]

The only reason i post scriptures and quotes from GAs is that i wish us all to get the correct doctrine. I'm very sad to hear that some feel so condemned by these. Perhaps those who do need to take it up with God who is the true author of these scriptures and quotes.

In case anyone couldn't tell, i don't care what anyone does on Sunday. It is not my place to say what some other member does on Sunday is sin or not. My problem is the criticism (albeit somewhat subtle) of church leaders.

So here is an article for us all to read. It is quite lengthy, but i would encourage all to read the entire thing. It is so pertinent and relevant to all of us really, and i know i learned a lot. I will post the greater portion of it in the next post, but would, again, encourage everyone to read the entire thing.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Criticism

[Connie]

From article in previous post. Written by Dallin H. Oaks

"Does the commandment to avoid faultfinding and evil speaking apply to Church members’ destructive personal criticism of Church leaders? Of course it does. It applies to criticism of all Church leaders—local or general, male or female. In our relations with all of our Church leaders, we should follow the Apostle Paul’s direction: “Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father.” (1 Tim. 5:1.)

Church leaders need this consideration, since the responsibilities of Church leadership include the correction of others. That function is not popular. As the Lamanite prophet Samuel taught, when a prophet comes among us and speaks of our iniquities, we are made angry. We call him a false prophet and “cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him.” (See Hel. 13:26.) But if a man comes among us and speaks flattering words about our behavior and tells us that it is all right to “walk after the pride of [our] own hearts … and do whatsoever [our] heart desire,” “we will not find fault with him.” (See Hel. 13:27, 28.) We will call him a prophet and reward him.

I have given the following counsel to Church members—those who have committed themselves by upraised hands to sustain their church leaders:

“Criticism is particularly objectionable when it is directed toward Church authorities, general or local. Jude condemns those who ‘speak evil of dignities.’ (Jude 1:8.) Evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed is in a class by itself. It is one thing to depreciate a person who exercises corporate power or even government power. It is quite another thing to criticize or depreciate a person for the performance of an office to which he or she has been called of God. It does not matter that the criticism is true. As Elder George F. Richards, President of the Council of the Twelve, said in a conference address in April 1947,

“ ‘When we say anything bad about the leaders of the Church, whether true or false, we tend to impair their influence and their usefulness and are thus working against the Lord and his cause.’ (In Conference Report, Apr. 1947, p. 24.)” (Address to Church Educational System teachers, Aug. 16, 1985.)

There is nothing new about this counsel. Even though King Saul sought to kill him, David would not allow his companion to strike the king, saying, “for who can stretch forth his hand against the Lord’s anointed, and be guiltless?” (1 Sam. 26:9.) The prophet Isaiah denounced those who “make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate” (Isa. 29:21; see also 2 Ne. 27:32.) (Those who reproved in the gate in Isaiah’s time were the religious leaders.) This modern revelation from the Doctrine and Covenants is to the same effect:

“Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.” (D&C 121:16.)

The counsel against speaking evil of Church leaders is not so much for the benefit of the leaders as it is for the spiritual well-being of members who are prone to murmur and find fault. The Church leaders I know are durable people. They made their way successfully in a world of unrestrained criticism before they received their current callings. They have no personal need for protection; they seek no personal immunities from criticism—constructive or destructive. They only seek to declare what they understand to be the word of the Lord to his people.

President David O. McKay said this about what he called “murmurers” and “faultfinders”:

“ ‘Speak not against the authorities.’ What does it mean? Be not a murmurer; that is what it means. It is one of the most poisonous things that can be introduced into the home of a Latter-day Saint—this murmuring against presidents of stakes, high councilors, Sunday School superintendents, etc. …

“Better stop murmuring and build. Remember that one of the worst means of tearing down an individual is slander. It is one of the most poisonous weapons that the evil one uses. Backbiting and evil speaking throw us into the class of malefactors rather than the class of benefactors.” (Gospel Ideals, Salt Lake City: Improvement Era, 1953, pp. 142–43.)

President McKay’s teaching against speaking evil of others is a principle of Christian behavior that applies to all people. But his companion counsel against “murmuring” is a teaching that applies uniquely to Church members and Church leaders.

Government or corporate officials, who are elected directly or indirectly or appointed by majority vote, must expect that their performance will be subject to critical and public evaluations by their constituents. That is part of the process of informing those who have the right and power of selection or removal. The same is true of popularly elected officers in professional, community, and other private organizations. I suppose that the same is true even of church leaders who are selected by popular vote of members or their representative bodies. Consistent with gospel standards, these evaluations—though critical and public—should be constructive.

A different principle applies in our Church, where the selection of leaders is based on revelation, subject to the sustaining vote of the membership. In our system of Church government, evil speaking and criticism of leaders by members is always negative. Whether the criticism is true or not, as Elder George F. Richards explained, it tends to impair the leaders’ influence and usefulness, thus working against the Lord and his cause. (In Conference Report, Apr. 1947, p. 24, quoted above.)

The prophet Moses expressed another reason we should refrain from criticizing Church leaders. On one occasion, the whole congregation of the children of Israel became dissatisfied and “murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness.” (Ex. 16:2.)

“What are we, that ye murmur against us?” Moses asked them. “The Lord heareth your murmurings which ye murmur against him: and what are we? your murmurings are not against us, but against the Lord.” (Ex. 16:7–8.) Similarly, when the children of Israel ignored the prophet Samuel’s inspired warnings and begged him to appoint a king to rule over them, the Lord directed him to do as they asked, explaining: “They have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me.” (1 Sam. 8:7.)

In these two instances, the Bible teaches that rejection of or murmuring against the counsel of the Lord’s servants amounts to actions against the Lord himself. How could it be otherwise? The Lord acts through his servants. That is the pattern he has established to safeguard our agency in mortality. His servants are not perfect, which is another consequence of mortality. But if we murmur against the Lord’s servants, we are working against the Lord and his cause and will soon find ourselves without the companionship of his Spirit.

So what do we do when we feel that our Relief Society president or our bishop or another authority is transgressing or pursuing a policy of which we disapprove? Is there no remedy? Are our critics correct when they charge that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are “sheep” without remedy against the whims of a heedless or even an evil shepherd?

There are remedies, but they are not the same remedies or procedures that are used with leaders in other organizations.

Our Father in Heaven has not compelled us to think the same way on every subject or procedure. As we seek to accomplish our life’s purposes, we will inevitably have differences with those around us—including some of those we sustain as our leaders. The question is not whether we have such differences, but how we manage them. What the Lord has said on another subject is also true of the management of differences with his leaders: “It must needs be done in mine own way.” (D&C 104:16.) We should conduct ourselves in such a way that our thoughts and actions do not cause us to lose the companionship of the Spirit of the Lord.

The first principle in the gospel procedure for managing differences is to keep our personal differences private. In this we have worthy examples to follow. Every student of Church history knows that there have been differences of opinion among Church leaders since the Church was organized. Each of us has experienced such differences in our work in auxiliaries, quorums, wards, stakes, and missions of the Church. We know that such differences are discussed, but not in public. Counselors acquiesce in the decisions of their president. Teachers follow the direction of their presidency. Members are loyal to the counsel of their bishop. All of this is done quietly and loyally—even by members who would have done differently if they had been in the position of authority.

Why aren’t these differences discussed in public? Public debate—the means of resolving differences in a democratic government—is not appropriate in our Church government. We are all subject to the authority of the called and sustained servants of the Lord. They and we are all governed by the direction of the Spirit of the Lord, and that Spirit only functions in an atmosphere of unity. That is why personal differences about Church doctrine or procedure need to be worked out privately. There is nothing inappropriate about private communications concerning such differences, provided they are carried on in a spirit of love.

There are at least five different procedures a Church member can follow in addressing differences with Church leaders—general or local, male or female.

The first—and most benign—of the procedures is to overlook the difference. President Brigham Young described his own application of this method in a circumstance in which he felt “a want of confidence” in the Prophet Joseph Smith’s financial management. After entertaining such thoughts for a short time, President Young saw that they could cause him to lose confidence in the Prophet and ultimately to question God as well. President Young concluded:

“Though I admitted in my feelings and knew all the time that Joseph was a human being and subject to err, still it was none of my business to look after his faults. … He was called of God; God dictated him, and if He had a mind to leave him to himself and let him commit an error, that was no business of mine. … He was God’s servant, and not mine.” (Journal of Discourses, 4:297.)

Elder Lorenzo Snow also observed some “imperfections” in Joseph Smith, but he also reached a positive conclusion about the Prophet:

“I thanked God that He would put upon a man who had those imperfections the power and authority He placed upon him … for I knew that I myself had weakness, and I thought there was a chance for me.” (Quoted by Elder Neal A. Maxwell in Ensign, Nov. 1984, p. 10.)

A second option is to reserve judgment and postpone any action on the difference. In many instances, the actions we are tempted to criticize may be based on confidences that preclude the leader from explaining his or her actions publicly. In such instances there is wisdom in a strategy of patience and trust.

The third procedure, which should be familiar to every student of the Bible, is to take up our differences privately with the leader involved. The Savior taught: “If thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.” (Matt. 18:15.)

This course of action may be pursued in a private meeting, if possible, or it may be done through a letter or other indirect communication. How many differences could be resolved if we would only communicate privately about them! Some would disappear as they were identified as mere misunderstandings. Others would be postponed with an agreement to disagree for the present. But in many instances, private communications about differences would remove obstacles to individual growth and correction.

A fourth option is to communicate with the Church officer who has the power to correct or release the person thought to be in error or transgression. The Bible calls this “tell[ing] it unto the church.” (Matt. 18:17.) Modern scripture, in the revelation we call “the law of the Church,” describes this procedure:

“And if he or she confess not thou shalt deliver him or her up unto the church, not to the members, but to the elders. And it shall be done in a meeting, and that not before the world.” (D&C 42:89.)

Note the caution that this remedy is to be private—“not before the world.” This is not done in order to hide the facts, but rather to increase the chance that the correction will improve the life of a brother or sister.

President John Taylor described these last two remedies when he taught how we should sustain a leader:

“But supposing he should … be found lying or cheating, or defrauding somebody; or stealing or anything else, or even become impure in his habits, would you still sustain him? It would be my duty then to talk with him as I would with anybody else, and tell him that I had understood that things were thus and so, and that under these circumstances I could not sustain him; and if I found that I had been misinformed I would withdraw the charge; but if not it would then be my duty to see that justice was administered to him, that he was brought before the proper tribunal to answer for the things he had done; and in the absence of that I would have no business to talk about him.” (Journal of Discourses, 21:207–8.)

There is a fifth remedy. We can pray for the resolution of the problem. We should pray for the leader whom we think to be in error, asking the Lord to correct the circumstance if it needs correction. At the same time, we should pray for ourselves, asking the Lord to correct us if we are in error.

A person who approaches a difference with a Church leader by praying about it keeps himself or herself in tune with the Spirit of the Lord. That person also goes directly to the One who can resolve the problem. It may be resolved by inspiration to the leader or by communication of added understanding, strength, or patience to the person who prays.

All five of these are appropriate options for Church members who differ with their leaders. The preferred course depends upon the circumstances and the inspiration that guides those who prayerfully seek.

By following these procedures, Church members can work for correction of a leader or for change of a policy. Members who do so in the correct spirit will not grieve the Spirit of the Lord. They will not alienate themselves from their leaders or their brothers and sisters in the Church.

Despite the commandments and counsel I have reviewed, we have some members who persistently and publicly criticize Church leaders. What about them?

Throughout our history we have had members who have criticized the Church and its leaders. Church disciplinary action against such members has been rare or nonexistent. Persistent, public critics punish themselves. By deliberately separating themselves from those who have been called as their leaders, critics forfeit the guidance of the Spirit of the Lord. They drift from prayer, from the scriptures, from Church activity, and from keeping the commandments. They inevitably lose spirituality and blessings. As the prophet Nephi observed, those who succumb to pride and “works of darkness” are on the way to spiritual destruction, “for the Spirit of the Lord will not always strive with man.” (2 Ne. 26:10–11.)

Another consequence of the divine warning against criticizing Church leaders is addressed to those leaders themselves. It stresses their special responsibility in the exercise of their authority. In contrast to government and corporate officers, who can often be high-handed and authoritarian in the use of their powers, Church leaders have strict limits on the way they can exercise their authority. The Lord has directed that the powers of heaven can be exercised only “upon the principles of righteousness” (D&C 121:36)—that is, “by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned” (D&C 121:41). And this command is enforced:

“When we undertake to … gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.” (D&C 121:37.)

Just as our Church leaders’ source of authority is different from that of government and corporate leaders, so are the procedures for correcting Church leaders different from those used to correct leaders chosen by popular election. But the differences are appropriate to the way in which our Church leaders are called and released. By following approved procedures, we can keep from alienating ourselves from the Spirit of the Lord.

This counsel will be anathema to some. I invite those who are troubled by it to consider it in terms of the teachings of the scriptures rather than in terms of their personal preferences or the canons of any particular profession. Those who reject the authority of the scriptures or our latter-day prophets cannot be expected to agree with what I have said. Those who see freedom or truth as absolutely overriding principles in all human actions cannot be expected to be persuaded by the scriptures’ teaching that “knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.” (1 Cor. 8:1.)

Those who govern their thoughts and actions solely by the principles of liberalism or conservatism or intellectualism cannot be expected to agree with all of the teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ. As for me, I find some wisdom in liberalism, some wisdom in conservatism, and much truth in intellectualism—but I find no salvation in any of them.

The role of a preacher or a practitioner of righteousness is not to be popular with the world or to be esteemed by any particular group, but to be right with God. Isaiah affirmed that fact when he condemned the rebellious “which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits.” (Isa. 30:10.) It is easy to preach freedom or truth. Praise for those subjects is usually safe and always popular. It is infinitely more difficult to preach how men and women should use freedom or truth. The preacher of that message may command respect, but he or she will not win popularity.

I conclude with a message of hope. When Isaiah condemned the critics of his day, he concluded with a prophecy. He said that in time the children of God would sanctify his name and “fear the God of Israel.” Continuing, he declared, “They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.” (Isa. 29:23–24.) In that spirit I pray for the day when all of us will know God and keep his commandments. In that day, as Isaiah foretold, the “king shall reign in righteousness,” and “the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.” (Isa. 32:1, 17.)"

[Janice]

After reading the most recent posts, I think it's possible that the reason we are not communicating effectively is because maybe we have different ideas on the definition of the word "commandment"? I'll give a shot at playing lexicographer. Please feel free to disagree or offer your own definition and examples.

Commandment: An order from God which we must follow or risk putting our eternal salvation in jeopardy, and which, if violated and left unrepeated of, will need to be answered for on Judgment Day.

Some examples: Thou shalt not murder, and the other 9 we know about from the OT. The covenants we make in the temple, such as law of Chastity... no sexual relations but with your spouse to whom you are married. Those revealed in modern times and published in the D&C, such as Tithing in D&C 119.

(for future reference, I'll refer to these commandments as Canonized Commandments.

Now.... over the years many Church leaders have given us their ideas, guidelines, and suggestion as to how we might best keep these Canonized Commandment. These leaders are called of God and are acting in His authority.

The question we seem to be grappling over is this: Are these ideas, guidelines, and suggestion to be considered as commandments themselves, with equal weight as the Canonized Commandment they support? (EXAMPLE: No Sports on Sunday supports Thou Shalt Keep the Sabbath Day Holy) Or are they to be considered as merrily suggestions that we would be wise to adapt, but not as actual commandments?

Everyone with me so far? If not, I welcome your alternative point of view.

What I will say next is my opinion and my opinion only. If you disagree, I am happy you do so, because different people thinking different things is what makes this world a wonderful place.

It is my opinion that when a Church authority (Prophet on down to my Visiting Teacher) offers guidelines on how we can best fulfill the commandments, that they are guidelines, and not actual commandments. I want to reserve the word "commandment" for those select few Canonized Commandment: creeds, edicts, and "thou shalt's" or "thou shalt not's" that have been given a higher, more elevated status then the guidelines that surround them.

There are several reasons why I feel this way.

1) I feel we cheapen the Canonized Commandment when every suggestion surrounding the Canonized Commandment given by every church leader becomes a commandment.

2) I feel that having this many commandments makes us like the Children of Israel just coming out of Egypt, to whom the Lord gave the Law of Moses because they were not capable of thinking for themselves. I want to believe that we, today, don't need to be given such detailed commandments, and that He prefers us to think for ourselves, but gave us wise men (and women) not to spell out ever single step, but to point us in the right general direction and give us few helpful pointers.

3) I think we have a duty to help our brothers and sisters stay on the right track. If I see a dear friend or loved one breaking a Canonized Commandment, I will take it upon myself to become very concerned, to want to help, to offer up prays and fasting in their behalf, and if I feel it appropriate, to become involved in helping them. If, however, I see someone not following a guideline or suggestion, my reaction will be very different indeed. I may silently disagree with their choice, but it will never go beyond that.

4) I am not sure where we draw the line. If a Prophet speaks in General Conference, I give it weight. If my visiting teacher speaks in my living room, do I give it the same weight? If we consider every suggestion offered by every church leader to be a commandment, then does this mean that you and I, when acting to fulfill our calling, have the authority to utter scripture and doctrine? This idea makes me nervous.

5) The Church web site has been quoted multiple times on this thread... Not every statement made by a church official is to be considered doctrine. Does this also apply to General Conference? Or just to lesser meetings? My take is that everything said in GC does not automatically become binding church doctrine and gospel, unless the Church officially announces it as such.

6) If we elevate every suggestion to the level of commandment, then this would imply that we are committing an egregious sin when we don't follow them. If every suggestion is actually a commandment, we have just turned a large percentage of the body of the church into very serious sinners. I just simply can't get there.

7) We already have enough people, as LittleWyvern said, hitting each other over the head with suggestions and saying, ""Look! You're sinning by doing this!" If we make every suggestion an commandment, I really don't want to think about how this kind of behavior would increase.

(end of numbered list)

Some in this thread have implied that by choosing to view the guidelines as guidelines and not actual commandments, that I am cheapening the leader who spoke them, and not recognizing their authority or their calling to speak in God's name. And maybe you even think I am criticizing them . You have every right to feel this way, but I hope you will also agree that others have a right to take a different point of view, and that if they do, they are not wrong, they are just different then you.

I prefer to make my own choices, to weigh and measure those choices against scripture, against the commandments, against the suggestions given to us by inspired men, and against my own personal inspiration.

My belief on this issue is that suggestions are not doctrinally binding. They're good suggestions, and I realize that one should follow them, but in this thread these suggestions have been used to bash people over the head with "Look! You're sinning by doing this! (quotes go here) I don't do this, etc." I've always been taught that new doctrine is ratified by the Twelve and submitted to the congregation. So, with regards to the Sabbath Day, I try to do things more to the spirit of the law rather than the letter, and use suggestions from church leaders that work for my unique situation. Some suggestions I don't follow to the letter (for example, our family played family games together). Yes, I know somebody below me will take this and use a quote to say what a horrible sinner I am for doing this, but please. I have my opinion, you have yours. Can we just agree to disagree?

Well said, LittleWyvern.

Janice

Edited February 4, 2009 by Janice

[Elgama]

As a Latter Day Saint I firmly believe in many forms of revelation, we have the Holy Ghost we get our own confirmation

Whilst I may struggled to live a commandment to its fullest that is down to me not the commandment.

-Charley

Edited February 4, 2009 by Elgama

[Moksha]

My belief on this issue is that suggestions are not doctrinally binding.

I suppose when some people are clamoring for direction in their life, it is tempting to run even suggestions up the flag pole and salute.

I have before imagined the terrible burden that would be imposed, if one of the Apostles, remembering much loved Bucky Beaver's slogan of "Brusha... Brusha... Brusha. Get the New Ipana - it's dandy for your teeth!", expressed a preference for Ipana toothpaste. There would be a run on it at the stores, but the managers would have to explain that Ipana toothpaste was no longer available in their stores.

[bytor2112]

My initial reaction after reading much of this thread was to chuckle. No wonder anti-groups have such a field day at our expense.

I raise my hand and sustain my leaders and where there ecclesiastical authority extends, I do my very best to comply and support. That being said, there are commandments given by the Lord........they get me full attention. I try very hard to keep the commandments. Then there is well intentioned council....like the RS council, a bit over zealous, but well intentioned probably.

I love general conference and find talks by the General Authorities to be pearls of wisdom and without a doubt the council given if followed will likely do nothing but light our way to Eternal life. But, just because I stumble and fall short of the ideal outlined by the Prophet doesn't mean that I am bound for Telestial glory. I am not a fanatical Saint and believe strongly that if we stay in the main stream of the church and are true and faithful to our covenants and are valiant in our testimony of Christ, we will inherit our Father's glory. I take the council of GA's and my Bishop and SP and apply it in my life as best as I can, always remembering that it should be judged by the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

[Connie]

I am amazed. God speaks through His prophets and servants, but the suggestions God gives us on how best to keep His commandments in these days is not important?! I, for one, believe that the suggestions and guidelines God gives us in these latter days are of the utmost importance. This is a classic example of elevating the dead prophets above the living prophets.

“Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence. ”

–Ezra Taft Benson

Do we not have an open canon? Do we not have continuing revelation?

See also the story i posted here: http://www.lds.net/forums/share/15297-modern-prophets.html

The church has already officially announced that everything said in General Conference becomes scripture. Please read the official statement again.

D&C 68:4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

How many times has the prophet himself got up at the end of general conference and told us to ponder the things we have learned, read the talks when they come out, apply the teachings in our lives and generally endorsed all that was said?

I agree that there are times when our prophets, apostles and church leaders are not speaking when "moved upon by the Holy Ghost." But i testify that General Conference is not one of those times, nor are the words i read in the church-produced magazines. I feel the Holy Spirit when i listen to General Conference, all of it, and i feel it when i read the talks after they are published. I feel the Holy Spirit when i read the Ensign, the New Era and even The Friend. I know they are the word of God and the will of the Lord for us in these days.

Our responsibility is to make sure we are in tune with that Spirit.

D&C 50:21-22

Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?

Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.

One more scripture.

D&C 90:4-5

Nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another, yea, even unto the church.

And all they who receive the oracles of God, let them beware how they hold them lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby, and stumble and fall when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon their house.

The oracles of God are, of course, are modern prophets. They receive the revelation for the church, they speak for God. It's amazing really! God has such great power. He can take a human, imperfect being and use them to further His kingdom. Is that really so hard to believe, that God speaks through imperfect beings, even you and i?

(aside from that: The children of Israel were given the Law of Moses not because they couldn't think for themselves but because they were not ready for and could not live the higher law and higher commandments. Whenever i hear stuff like this it makes me think of that quote from the movie Ever After, "some people read because they cannot think for themselves.")

(another aside: another reason i quote scriptures and general authorities: There are too many opinions spouted too readily these days. I think God can speak for himself.)

(one more: 100% of the church are already serious sinners, don't you think? This is a church of sinners. "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick." I don't see the problem. God is merciful if we turn to Him.)

(another: so someone who believes the sky is orange with purple polka dots isn't wrong, they are just different, thanks for that clarification. Forgive me if i believe there is just one right.)

Look, i'm not asking you to believe me. I am nobody. I have no stewardship over anyone here. And i'm sure many will consider this a very judgmental post. What i am asking you to do is believe God. Believe that he has power to do His own work. Believe those people He has placed in stewardship over you, even down to your visiting or home teachers. Believe that He can use even you and me, imperfect as we are, to further His kingdom. Be believing.

[bytor2112]

Connie,

Thanks for the quotes........I love to quote GA's as well. I am not sure anyone is taking the council given by our sustained leaders lightly. I tend to view there teachings as further light on important gospel subjects. I view there comments as scriptural and apply it to my life as best as I am able. I would suggest that we are all at different stages of spiritual growth and have not reached the same conclusions and probably will not at the same time. I am certainly on a much different spiritual plane than Elder Eyring. The good news is that it's really about direction and not velocity. In this life we are asked to keep our covenants, be valiant in our testimony of Christ and repent along the way. We all learn at different rates and the Spirit teaches us as we are ready.....a little here and a little there.

" If all of the Latter-day Saints lived as they should, then Moses’ petition would be granted: “Would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!” (Num. 11:29).

This is the promised day when “God shall give unto” us “knowledge by his Holy Spirit,” when, “by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost,” we shall gain knowledge “that has not been revealed since the world was until now” (D&C 121:26).

This is the day of which Joseph Smith said: “God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them” (Teachings, p. 149).

And we look forward to that glorious millennial day when “they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord” (Jer. 31:34).

But even now there is no end to the revelations we may receive. “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (A of F 1:9).

To the prophets, seers, and revelators he will manifest his mind and his will concerning the Church and the world. To the presiding officers in the stakes and wards and quorums he will reveal what should be for those organizations. To fathers and mothers and children he will reveal “great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures” (D&C 89:19) to guide them along the way to perfection.

It is his will that we gain testimonies, that we seek revelation, that we covet to prophesy, that we desire spiritual gifts, and that we seek the face of the Lord.

The Lord wants all his children to gain light and truth and knowledge from on high. It is his will that we pierce the veil and rend the heavens and see the visions of eternity.

By his own mouth he has given us this promise: “It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am” (D&C 93:1). " - Elder Bruce R McConkie

[ruthiechan]

I would like to offer my thoughts.

About TV, my family would watch TV on Sunday, BUT we had to watch something that's Sunday appropriate. You wouldn't find us watching the X-files on Sunday (which was my favorite show in High School), but you would find us watching a church video or some other uplifting show.

About games, well, board games are okay in my book, as long as the Spirit remains in the home. Once it starts to becomes a fierce competition or contentious then it is no longer serving its function of bringing the family closer together.

I also the think the type of board games being played counts as well. Playing the board game ZOMBIES, or Car Wars is probably not a good idea to play on Sunday. However, the game SET or Flux could be considered appropriate.

On video games, well, depends on the game. My brother has Asperger's Syndrome and has a hard time because of his condition with Sundays and no video games at all, an issue the rest of us never had a problem with. So my mother changed the rule to only fluffy video games on Sunday, like Animal Crossing. This helped my brother immensely feel better about Sundays.

On sports, I have known of too many instances where members would skip church entirely or partially in favor of watching a sport on TV! I even remember a young men's leader only going to sacrament meeting so he could go home and watch football. Wha? This was confusing to me as a young woman (his wife mentioned it to someone in my presence). I remember thinking how he should have just recorded it and watched it later instead of showing us that football was more important than going to Church and fulfilling your calling.

Blind obedience is when you accept what someone says without question, without finding out yourself the truth of the matter.

Did Nephi believe his father blindly? No! He went and prayed about his father's vision and found out for himself the truthfulness of his father's words. That is what we need to be doing. But we also need to be willing to act on whatever personal revelation we receive. It does you no good to know what God wants you to do if you don't act on it.

We all need to be like Nephi. We need to seek our own spiritual confirmation and then be willing to act upon it even if we really don't want to.

About the Ensign, I have heard that the Conference issues of the Ensign are considered modern day scripture. I believe this to be true.

[ruthiechan]

One more thought I had that I forgot to mention.

Someone mentioned that we've been advised to have simple meals on Sunday. I believe this advice has been given because unfortunately most people view making dinner and other meals to be a burden or it adds stress to their lives. This, of course, does not lend well to keeping the Spirit in your home.

For me, however, I am so busy during the week that I rarely get to put a nice meal together for my family. So I find myself doing those things on Saturday and Sunday. However, making a nice meal, or making bread, or something to that effect does not stress me out. I find it spiritually fulfilling to provide physical sustenance for my family. So, for me, that is a way of keeping the Sabbath Day Holy.

Sundays are supposed to be a spiritual recentering, meditation focused on Christ and spiritual preparation for the week, and family togetherness, unity. Anything that detracts from that does not fulfill the spirit of the law of keeping the Sabbath Day Holy.

Edited February 6, 2009 by ruthiechan
typo

[bmy-]

I watch football every sunday during the season. In fact -- I leave Church early to do so. It's the only real time I get to spend with my mom and dad.. and to me that's far more important than Church.

It's one of those things that you have to decide on an individual basis.

[pam]

One more thought I had that I forgot to mention.

Someone mentioned that we've been advised to have simple meals on Sunday. I believe this advice has been given because unfortunately most people view making dinner and other meals to be a burden or it adds stress to their lives. This, of course, does not lend well to keeping the Spirit in your home.

For me, however, I am so busy during the week that I rarely get to put a nice meal together for my family. So I find myself doing those things on Saturday and Sunday. However, making a nice meal, or making bread, or something to that effect does not stress me out. I find it spiritually fulfilling to provide physical sustenance for my family. So, for me, that is a way of keeping the Sabbath Day Holy.

Sundays are supposed to be a spiritual recentering, meditation focused on Christ and spiritual preparation for the week, and family togetherness, unity. Anything that detracts from that does not fulfill the spirit of the law of keeping the Sabbath Day Holy.

I'm with you on the larger meals on Sunday. Sunday is the ONLY day that we are all home at the same time other than sleeping. Even then we aren't all home since one of my children works a graveyard shift. So we try and make it a point to have a larger really nice meal on Sunday.

[ruthiechan]

I watch football every sunday during the season. In fact -- I leave Church early to do so. It's the only real time I get to spend with my mom and dad.. and to me that's far more important than Church.

It's one of those things that you have to decide on an individual basis.

I do not see why you can't just go after Church.

Or, visit a different ward that meets before or after game. (This of course only works if you do not have a calling that requires you to attend your meetings.)

Maybe Mom and Dad could go to Church with you, and you can record the game while you're all there and watch it afterwards together.

Why is watching football the only time you get to spend time with your parents?

Aren't there other things you can do together?

I realize I may come off as being judgemental, but really what I am trying to do is give you options to be able to attend your Church meetings AND have football time with your parents.

[hordak]

Sundays are supposed to be a spiritual recentering, meditation focused on Christ and spiritual preparation for the week, and family togetherness, unity. Anything that detracts from that does not fulfill the spirit of the law of keeping the Sabbath Day Holy.

Ironically this is why I barely go to church anymore. Trying to keep the kids reverent enough to not disturb others during church (which starts at nap time) leaves me in an frustrated mood where Christ is the furthest thing from my mind.

[bmy-]

I do not see why you can't just go after Church.

Or, visit a different ward that meets before or after game. (This of course only works if you do not have a calling that requires you to attend your meetings.)

Maybe Mom and Dad could go to Church with you, and you can record the game while you're all there and watch it afterwards together.

Why is watching football the only time you get to spend time with your parents?

Aren't there other things you can do together?

I realize I may come off as being judgemental, but really what I am trying to do is give you options to be able to attend your Church meetings AND have football time with your parents.

It didn't come off as judgemental at all. I'm the only mormon in my family (Catholic/nothing), I work on sundays (out of necessity), and sundays are really the only day of the week my family is together due to hectic schedules.

I promised my parents before I joined that they would always come before church. It might seem weird.. but I get just as much out of watching football with them as I do from going to church.

I might have my priorities mixed up -- but I wouldn't have it any other way

[prospectmom]

We all have to do what works for us. I can't always go to church on Sundays because my husband who dosen't go wants the family to do other things.... You pray to God and do your best no one should expect more.

[applepansy]

It didn't come off as judgemental at all. I'm the only mormon in my family (Catholic/nothing), I work on sundays (out of necessity), and sundays are really the only day of the week my family is together due to hectic schedules.

I promised my parents before I joined that they would always come before church. It might seem weird.. but I get just as much out of watching football with them as I do from going to church.

I might have my priorities mixed up -- but I wouldn't have it any other way

Not weird at all. . . the church is here for families, not families for the church.

applepansy

[MorningStar]

I'm with you on the larger meals on Sunday. Sunday is the ONLY day that we are all home at the same time other than sleeping. Even then we aren't all home since one of my children works a graveyard shift. So we try and make it a point to have a larger really nice meal on Sunday.

It's a perfect day for a potluck. Everyone has it easy by bringing one thing if you have relatives in the area. :) I tend to make better dinners on Sunday too - not that they're extravagant, but we're around more for something to roast in the oven and keep an eye on it. We can also cook together, making less work for one person.

[ruthiechan]

Not weird at all. . . the church is here for families, not families for the church.

applepansy

Agreed.

My husband is not a member of the Church. As a result I rarely go to church extracurricular activities, and there have been a few Sundays that I have stayed home because my husband wanted me home.

[Janice]

I am just now getting back to this thread after my last post almost a week ago. Sorry if I am beating a dead horse! Just wanted to add a few more bits before we let this thread die.

I am amazed. God speaks through His prophets and servants, but the suggestions God gives us on how best to keep His commandments in these days is not important?!

I don't think anyone said they are not important. In fact, I think we all agree they *are* important. We just might not all regard them as "Thou Shalt's" and "Thou Shalt Not's".

I respect and appreciate the passion in your post, Connie. I guess I would just say this: When it comes to suggestions offered in General Conference, we all cherry pick. We all do. Not a single person alive fully lives up to 100% of them.

In saying this, I am NOT saying it's okay to not try, and that what is said is not important. I am only recognizing that we have the responsibility to measure the suggestions against the needs of our own life, to receive our own inspiration, and then to act according.

And I, for one, am not ready to judge people who cherry pick suggestions as sinners.

Janice

[Hemidakota]

Not a single person alive fully lives up to 100% of them.

This is why it is now necessary to teach the importance of the repentance process.

[Janice]

It didn't come off as judgemental at all. I'm the only mormon in my family (Catholic/nothing), I work on sundays (out of necessity), and sundays are really the only day of the week my family is together due to hectic schedules.

I promised my parents before I joined that they would always come before church. It might seem weird.. but I get just as much out of watching football with them as I do from going to church.

I might have my priorities mixed up -- but I wouldn't have it any other way

Thank you for having the faith and courage to part ways with your family's religious traditions and beliefs and for following your own course. That could not have been easy, and I commend you for it. Keep up the good work!

Janice

Edited February 9, 2009 by Janice