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Whats so wrong with christian music???

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This is just my personal preference here, but I dislike and would discourage Christian music that isn't reverent. Good message or not, irreverence does not and cannot equal worship. If you like metal or gangster rap, Christian or not, then go ahead and enjoy it. I have (or rather had until a couple years ago) a couple albums of both of the above genres... But I don't think that I could pretend for a minute that those songs are bringing me closer to Heavenly Father or the spirit, no matter how positive and uplifting the lyrics are or how happy it makes you...

But maybe this whole post is just more evidence that getting married, even before 25, turns you into an overly-mature, sappy, boring old person who would much prefer listening to more calm music :D

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My opinion is that "modern" Christian music blurrs the already gray line between the things of the Lord and the things of the world. I think this can cause more harm than knowing and understanding that line and keeping them separate.

Remember the things of the Lord are holy and peacful, not like the things of the world that are trying to distract you from those things.

I'll give you the best example I can think of.

Watch and compare 2 movies.

1st watch Jesus of Nazareth, not even church produced, then watch Jesus Christ Superstar.

See the difference? Some things aren't meant to mix. If you want to listen to worldly musice then you have that choice. But, if you want to listen to Christian music then listen to Christian music. Get Mormon Tabernacle Choir, or one of my favorites, Afterglow. Or, just by the CD complilation of all the hymns from the Chruch distribution center.

I see danger in the combining.

Also, if their intent really was to preach, then profitting off music while doing so is dangerously akin to priestcraft.

I realize many will not agree, but I am free to give my opinion too. :)

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My opinion is that "modern" Christian music blurrs the already gray line between the things of the Lord and the things of the world. I think this can cause more harm than knowing and understanding that line and keeping them separate.

Remember the things of the Lord are holy and peacful, not like the things of the world that are trying to distract you from those things.

I'll give you the best example I can think of.

Watch and compare 2 movies.

1st watch Jesus of Nazareth, not even church produced, then watch Jesus Christ Superstar.

See the difference? Some things aren't meant to mix. If you want to listen to worldly musice then you have that choice. But, if you want to listen to Christian music then listen to Christian music. Get Mormon Tabernacle Choir, or one of my favorites, Afterglow. Or, just by the CD complilation of all the hymns from the Chruch distribution center.

I see danger in the combining.

Also, if their intent really was to preach, then profitting off music while doing so is dangerously akin to priestcraft.

I realize many will not agree, but I am free to give my opinion too. :)

Thing is, LDS kids aren't going to sit around listening to Bryce Neubert or Afterglow all day, they are going to listen to some of the music of the culture. Since they are going to listen to the music of the culture, why not offer some of the same musical style with good Christ centered lyrics? I think those that are overly pious about not using some aspects of the predominant culture to reach out, especially to the younger generation, are doing a disservice.

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My two cents-

I hate Christian rock music. It brings back painful memories of my youth, when my 'Christian' friends would listen to it and then do very, very un-Christian things, including having make-out parties that led to orgies. (No, I never participated, but they liked to talk about it...)

Obviously, the most important lesson one can truly learn from those experiences is 'don't hang around with pseudo-Christians who are into popular Christian culture but who are, in actuality, not Christian at heart'. But, being mortal, I now cannot disassociate Christian rock music with hypocrisy of the worst kind- so I abhor it.

Luckily, my taste in friends improved, and I learned that Christian music (including Christian rock) was genuinely enjoyed by non-hypocritical Christians. I myself have learned to appreciate softer Christian music (though I can't name bands).

However, contemporary popular Christian songs are not hymns. They are not made with the intention of being hymns; they lean towards sensationalism rather than reverence, and choose entertainment over doctrinal profundity. I have rarely heard a Christian song explore any doctrine other than 'Christ died for me', 'God loves me', 'I should love my fellow man', and 'I love God!'. Those things aren't bad- but they're not exactly conducive to reflection.

When experiencing contemporary Christian music as entertainment, the aforementioned qualities are totally fine; I have no problem with them. I agree that Christian music is much better than a lot of the other options out there. However, when a church begins to use them in place of hymns, then there's a problem, in my ever-so-humble yet ever-so-judgmental opinion.

The modern Christian music I have heard relies on sensationalistic beats, tessituras, and presentation to make an emotional impact. The focus has gone from music inspiring reverent, intrinsic reflection on the Gospel of Christ, to music inspiring catharsis and trance-inducing sensationalism. It is not music worshiping God, it is music about God.

Others may disagree with me on this; that's fine. I come to this opinion being a faithful Latter-day Saint with much theatrical influence and activity in my life. My opinion is formed primarily by experiences with 2 friends whose church services I attended (twice with each friend). The churches were both non-denominational Protestant churches. The first church could have passed as a producer of brilliant production on Broadway, with catchy music constantly playing (including during the prayers and sermon, with silence only to punctuate dramatic pauses). The second church was not as theatrical, yet the music was still aimed to produce a cathartic response among the crowd. Often, the result is the listeners waving their hands in the air, eyes half-closed (or fully closed) and waving back and forth. I do one or two of these actions too, sometimes, when listening to my favorite Broadway showtunes. Such actions are the result of a powerful emotional response, but rarely (if ever) the response of a person actually feeling the spirit of God and being touched by it. The focus is taken off of the inner spiritual man, and placed on the outer sensational man.

I don't see a problem with Christian music in and of itself (except for heavy rock music with Christ-centered lyrics. The examples I have heard amount to hypocrisy incarnate; for music is much more than its lyrics, and certain styles of music invite diabolical influences to the mind despite its lyrics. Heavy rock/metal is one of them). However, when one views the switch from older hymns to contemporary Christian music as harmless and just a transitioning of religious culture from one generation to another, that person is being deceived. I think it's important to acknowledge the transition when discussing Christian music, as it is a widespread phenomenon that has serious implications.

Edited by Maxel

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I love music and I strive hard to listen to clean uplifting music. Its something that is very important to me. Alot of the musid I listen to is Christian music. Uplifting music that is by musicians who are not LDS generally. I've had alot of member tell me I shouldn't listen to it because its 'apostate' but I completely disagree! Its unfair to call it 'apostate' cause these people don't even know what the apostasy is! I've come across some amazing songs that really have incredible messages...why should I disregard what they have to say simply because they don't know the whole story? Alot of the times I find they write songs about things they don't even fully understand things that so strongly apply to the gospel. I embrace it and I've been told I really shouldn't. What do you guys think? I would really like to know your thoughts and feelings about this.

They're nuts. What do you say to them?

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They're nuts. What do you say to them?

Who's nuts- the Church members who say Christian music is apostate, or the Christian artists? Edited by Maxel

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Who's nuts- the Church members who say Christian music is apostate, or the Christian artists?

Church nuts who say nutty things and are or pretend to be oblivious to the nuttiness.

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My two cents-

I hate Christian rock music. It brings back painful memories of my youth, when my 'Christian' friends would listen to it and then do very, very un-Christian things, including having make-out parties that led to orgies. (No, I never participated, but they liked to talk about it...)

Obviously, the most important lesson one can truly learn from those experiences is 'don't hang around with pseudo-Christians who are into popular Christian culture but who are, in actuality, not Christian at heart'. But, being mortal, I now cannot disassociate Christian rock music with hypocrisy of the worst kind- so I abhor it.

Luckily, my taste in friends improved, and I learned that Christian music (including Christian rock) was genuinely enjoyed by non-hypocritical Christians. I myself have learned to appreciate softer Christian music (though I can't name bands).

However, contemporary popular Christian songs are not hymns. They are not made with the intention of being hymns; they lean towards sensationalism rather than reverence, and choose entertainment over doctrinal profundity. I have rarely heard a Christian song explore any doctrine other than 'Christ died for me', 'God loves me', 'I should love my fellow man', and 'I love God!'. Those things aren't bad- but they're not exactly conducive to reflection.

When experiencing contemporary Christian music as entertainment, the aforementioned qualities are totally fine; I have no problem with them. I agree that Christian music is much better than a lot of the other options out there. However, when a church begins to use them in place of hymns, then there's a problem, in my ever-so-humble yet ever-so-judgmental opinion.

The modern Christian music I have heard relies on sensationalistic beats, tessituras, and presentation to make an emotional impact. The focus has gone from music inspiring reverent, intrinsic reflection on the Gospel of Christ, to music inspiring catharsis and trance-inducing sensationalism. It is not music worshiping God, it is music about God.

Others may disagree with me on this; that's fine. I come to this opinion being a faithful Latter-day Saint with much theatrical influence and activity in my life. My opinion is formed primarily by experiences with 2 friends whose church services I attended (twice with each friend). The churches were both non-denominational Protestant churches. The first church could have passed as a producer of brilliant production on Broadway, with catchy music constantly playing (including during the prayers and sermon, with silence only to punctuate dramatic pauses). The second church was not as theatrical, yet the music was still aimed to produce a cathartic response among the crowd. Often, the result is the listeners waving their hands in the air, eyes half-closed (or fully closed) and waving back and forth. I do one or two of these actions too, sometimes, when listening to my favorite Broadway showtunes. Such actions are the result of a powerful emotional response, but rarely (if ever) the response of a person actually feeling the spirit of God and being touched by it. The focus is taken off of the inner spiritual man, and placed on the outer sensational man.

I don't see a problem with Christian music in and of itself (except for heavy rock music with Christ-centered lyrics. The examples I have heard amount to hypocrisy incarnate; for music is much more than its lyrics, and certain styles of music invite diabolical influences to the mind despite its lyrics. Heavy rock/metal is one of them). However, when one views the switch from older hymns to contemporary Christian music as harmless and just a transitioning of religious culture from one generation to another, that person is being deceived. I think it's important to acknowledge the transition when discussing Christian music, as it is a widespread phenomenon that has serious implications.

Much of the music of "sacred hymns" we have now derived from pub songs and worldly music of the day in which they were written and adding Christian lyrics was scandalous. The organ, at one point, was considered an instrument of the devil.

Perhaps you missed the verses about the instruments that Israel used during worship or the "emotional responses" experienced by folks both in the Bible and Book of Mormon (raising their hands, shouting for joy, being overwhelmed by the Spirit and falling to the ground)? I daresay you would feel uncomfortable in the ancient Nephite church.

Edited by Book_of_Mormon_Warrior

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I like a lot of the popular Christian music. Some of it, I admit, doesn't appeal, but I appreciate the art form.

I think for me there is a difference between listening to music that uplifts...and llistening to music that truly helps me feel the Spirit of God. And there is some music that seems to work better on that score than others. I suppose it is a matter of degree.

We seek after all things good and praiseworthy. And there a lots of forms of music that are praiseworthy. But not all of them I add to my life when I am seeking revelation or giving the Lord my best worship or learning thru music the doctrines of the kingdom.

Frankly, I think there is room for lots of kinds of religious expression in our musical libraries. We just need to cultivate the gift of discernment and wisdom as we participate.

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However, contemporary popular Christian songs are not hymns. They are not made with the intention of being hymns; they lean towards sensationalism rather than reverence, and choose entertainment over doctrinal profundity. I have rarely heard a Christian song explore any doctrine other than 'Christ died for me', 'God loves me', 'I should love my fellow man', and 'I love God!'. Those things aren't bad- but they're not exactly conducive to reflection.

When experiencing contemporary Christian music as entertainment, the aforementioned qualities are totally fine; I have no problem with them. I agree that Christian music is much better than a lot of the other options out there. However, when a church begins to use them in place of hymns, then there's a problem, in my ever-so-humble yet ever-so-judgmental opinion.

Hymns vs. contemporary Christian music (CCM) is a false dichotamy, imho. CCM falls into many subcategories. Praise and worship, for example, often does end up getting sung in church. These songs are not hymns. The lyrics are simpler, and quite often are choruses, with no verses. However, there is a purpose in the simplicity. It's not a dumming down. Rather, while hymns are often sermons put to music, with incredible theological instruction, praise songs are meant to be sung as direct praise to God. This is why they are simple--so we can learn them the first time, and, as we sing, we "enter in," recognizing God's presence, perhaps shutting our eyes, and lifting our hands--worshipping!

Some other subcategories may seem less reverent to our aged years, and yet to young people, the lyrics seep through, and often there are conversions at these concerts. Also, as FYI, many of the Protestant hymns written 100 years ago come from the musical scores of bar songs from 150-200 years ago. In other words, the tradition of taking secular music and "baptizing" it with gospel lyrics is age old and appropriate.

Of course, some gospel singers are mere entertainers, and some may have not personal faith. Yet, God can even annoint the singing of such reprobates. Those who convert to Jesus do not rely on the depth of faith of whoever delivers to them the gospel message.

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Guest tomk

I love music and I strive hard to listen to clean uplifting music. Its something that is very important to me. Alot of the musid I listen to is Christian music. Uplifting music that is by musicians who are not LDS generally. I've had alot of member tell me I shouldn't listen to it because its 'apostate' but I completely disagree! Its unfair to call it 'apostate' cause these people don't even know what the apostasy is! I've come across some amazing songs that really have incredible messages...why should I disregard what they have to say simply because they don't know the whole story? Alot of the times I find they write songs about things they don't even fully understand things that so strongly apply to the gospel. I embrace it and I've been told I really shouldn't. What do you guys think? I would really like to know your thoughts and feelings about this.

Anything that brings the influence of the Holy Ghost is appropriate, no matter what the source. The LDS Church has never claimed to be the SOLITARY domain of everything good and wholesome. God speaks to us and loves us through many means and different people, many of whom have never heard of the LDS Church or may not even believe in God!!!

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Something does not have to be stamped with a big "LDS" on the cover, or be exclusively purchased from Deseret Book or Seagul Book in order to be uplifting.

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NOTE: I like your use of the term 'CCM', so I'm going to adopt it and use it to conserve space. In my usage, 'CCM' can refer to 'contemporary Christian music' or one or many 'contemporary Christian song(s)' (CCM's).

Hymns vs. contemporary Christian music (CCM) is a false dichotamy, imho.

I only compare the two when one attempts to replace the former with the latter- in which case, it becomes a true dichotomy and the two must be compared based on their individual merits. Again, I see nothing wrong with (most) CCM's as music in general, but they are not hymns, and should not be used in place of hymns.

CCM falls into many subcategories. Praise and worship, for example, often does end up getting sung in church. These songs are not hymns. The lyrics are simpler, and quite often are choruses, with no verses. However, there is a purpose in the simplicity. It's not a dumming down. Rather, while hymns are often sermons put to music, with incredible theological instruction, praise songs are meant to be sung as direct praise to God. This is why they are simple--so we can learn them the first time, and, as we sing, we "enter in," recognizing God's presence, perhaps shutting our eyes, and lifting our hands--worshipping!

My whole statement was based on the premise that if a church replaces reverent hymns with sensationalistic CCM, that church is doing a bad, bad thing. I stated in my aforementioned post why I think that's bad. Again, all my statements are based on four separate occasions in Protestant churches that used CCM in the worship services. It was done absolutely horribly in the first instance and turned the service into a musical production with little depth. In the second instance, the CCM detracted from the actual Spirit of God that was present during the discussion. Yes, the CCM's drove the spirit away, and my girlfriend who attended with me felt that happen as well.

If I am reading you right, then you are saying that in many churches CCM's are not replacing hymns, but being added to the worship service. In that case, I must be lead to wonder... why? As I have stated and restate, the CCM's I have heard (including the 'Praise and Worship' songs) do not invoke the actual spirit of God, but something else. If one sees the emotional response experienced when listening to the kind of CCM's I have heard as feeling the true Spirit of God, that person is deceived. It is akin to expecting junk good to have the same nutritional effects as healthy food because the junk food tastes as good or better.

Again, as a student of the theater, I frankly disagree with your assessment that the vision of a Protestant congregation 'shutting [their] eyes, and lifting [their] hands' is an actual result of feeling the Spirit of God. I've seen the same reaction, time and time again, among the audience of a catchy musical production, including off-Broadway shows and non-Christian concerts. I've felt the same feelings that drive this kind of behavior myself- I've exhibited such behavior myself. I believe it is possible that some are feeling the genuine spirit of God when they do this, but it is the rare exception as opposed to the rule. It's a fine line, but the described manner of worship has more in common with mass catharsis than actual spiritual stimulation. I'm sorry to be so coarse, but this is an area I don't see room to mince words on.

One last thing- we are commanded to worship God 'in spirit and in truth' (John 4:24). God's spirit is reverent and profound, not gaudy and intellectually shallow.

Some other subcategories may seem less reverent to our aged years, and yet to young people, the lyrics seep through, and often there are conversions at these concerts.

Generationally, I am a product of this generation, and I find the lyrics of most CCM's very shallow and not profound. Others may; that's fine. However, as I stated above, music is far more than the mere lyrics, and the beat/tessitura/style of many CCM's drive away the actual Spirit of God as I understand it, and is replaced with the Spirit of Feel-Good. What I mean by that is the reverent, reflective and profound nature present when one feels the Spirit is replaced with the more superficial emotional response of Good Feelings- happiness, levity, etc. Again there's nothing wrong with this! However, it is inappropriate to evoke such feelings through song in a meeting with the stated purpose of worshiping God. (Most) traditional hymns worship God through reverence, respect, and reflection; (Most) CCM's are about God's love for us- but don't actually encourage reverence, respect, or reflection. If all I knew about Christ was what I learned through the CCM's I've heard, I would assume He was some awesome dude one could hang out with at the mall or go see a movie with, and who everything is ok with because He Loves Me. Frankly, such a view of Christ is repulsive to me- yet that the feeling I get of Christ as portrayed in most of the CCM's I've heard.

Also, as FYI, many of the Protestant hymns written 100 years ago come from the musical scores of bar songs from 150-200 years ago. In other words, the tradition of taking secular music and "baptizing" it with gospel lyrics is age old and appropriate.

The thing about music is it is what it is. There has been a sharp, sharp change in the direction and style of music in the past 100-150 years, and the fact is that it is no longer enough to simply take a modern-day 'bar tune', transform the lyrics, and call it a worship song. A song may be taken from a score, have its lyrics and style changed and become a completely different song. However, when one writes a song in the popular style of the day, the end product will reflect the popular style of the day. In other words, it would be possible (within reason) to, as you said, take secular music and "baptize" it with gospel lyrics, as the end product reflects the change made: reflecting the nature and mercies of God. However, it is another matter altogether to write gospel lyrics into songs that reflect the popular culture of the day: what you end up with is God-a-la-Pop-Culture.

Also, FYI, many of the LDS hymns were written in the early days of the LDS church- meaning that we don't exclusively use traditional Protestant hymns, though there are many present in our hymn book. I don't believe the fact that many traditional Protestant hymns are structured around popular music is sufficient support for the act of doing so today- even if that was all that was being done.

The point of a hymn needs to be respective reverence that prompts reflection on the nature and actuality of God; the point is not to draw a listener in with catchy beats, and the point is most definitely not to draw attention to itself. When a band preforms, a band is preforming and drawing attention to their music. If the congregation cannot sing due to a lack of professional adroitness, then the congregation is on the losing side of the situation, with the performer on the winning side. Unfortunately in a situation like that, neither side is edified of God.

Of course, some gospel singers are mere entertainers, and some may have not personal faith. Yet, God can even annoint the singing of such reprobates. Those who convert to Jesus do not rely on the depth of faith of whoever delivers to them the gospel message.

You have a good point here. However, I look at the situation as a matter of Good, Better, and Best- it is simply best to use reverent hymns instead of fast-tempoed CCM's in a worship services, because the former more accurately reflects the actuality of God's nature. Again, I have no problem (in most cases) with CCM's in and of themselves- my entire concern revolves around regarding them as sufficient replacements for reverent hymns.

EDIT:I'm really trying not to be so inflammatory, but this topic is something I've spent a lot of time on and I'm very opinionated about it. Unfortunately, I am in a bit of a rut emotionally right now so my faculties of tact and diplomacy are severely lacking... I don't take back anything I said, but I apologize for its abruptness. I also apologize to anyone I might offend, as I know this is an issue others feel deeply for too.

Edited by Maxel

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I love music and I strive hard to listen to clean uplifting music. Its something that is very important to me. Alot of the musid I listen to is Christian music. Uplifting music that is by musicians who are not LDS generally. I've had alot of member tell me I shouldn't listen to it because its 'apostate' but I completely disagree! Its unfair to call it 'apostate' cause these people don't even know what the apostasy is! I've come across some amazing songs that really have incredible messages...why should I disregard what they have to say simply because they don't know the whole story? Alot of the times I find they write songs about things they don't even fully understand things that so strongly apply to the gospel. I embrace it and I've been told I really shouldn't. What do you guys think? I would really like to know your thoughts and feelings about this.

I can listen to Pink Floyd [few songs] and be uplifted. It has nothing to do with a specific genre label since I do listen just about everything from A - to - Z and can find songs that were inspiring that are not included in the Christian genre. Now, I have yet to find anything bad with the church's choir either. ^_^

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Maxel, no one here is suggesting that we should replace Hymns with Contemporary Christain Music. CCM is supposed to be supplementary to hymns.

I am sorry you've had such negative experiences, but hating a genre of music because of a few people who sucked liked it strikes me as close minded.

A friend in my ward hated most hymns because they were bright and happy hymns, hopeful hymns. It took her a long time to appreciate and love those hymns. Why? Because hymns like I Am A Child Of God where it says, "Has given me parents kind and dear" were lies to her. Abuse at home. Love at church. Should she right off that hymn and all hymns because of the mixed messages she received growing up?

There will always be hypocrits. Always. There will always be people who go to church and seem kind and wonderful helpful people only to find that at home, at work, they are very very different people. They're only wonderful on Sundays or for showing off. It doesn't mean that Christ's Gospel is bad.

I don't see a problem with Christian music in and of itself (except for heavy rock music with Christ-centered lyrics. The examples I have heard amount to hypocrisy incarnate; for music is much more than its lyrics, and certain styles of music invite diabolical influences to the mind despite its lyrics. Heavy rock/metal is one of them). However, when one views the switch from older hymns to contemporary Christian music as harmless and just a transitioning of religious culture from one generation to another, that person is being deceived. I think it's important to acknowledge the transition when discussing Christian music, as it is a widespread phenomenon that has serious implications.

This right here says to me that you have a problem with specific genres that do not fall in your personal category of spirituality.

I stand as a witness that no genre of music is inherently evil. It's what people do with such genres that make it evil.

How many fights do parents and kids get in with each other over music? If your kid likes rap find uplifting rap music, the kind that's not full of violence and sex. If your kid likes metal find the uplifting metal that's not satanic or hailing oden. Parents and children would both be happier if they did this.

Did you listen to the songs I posted links to on page two of this thread? You know, the ones where I've felt the Spirit? Allow me to give you the genres of each.

Let Go by Frou Frou is a sort of new age pop with techno ambient influences.

See Who I Am by Within Temptation is operatic metal.

Aurora by Origa (a Russian woman of Japanese descent) is classified as pop, but clearly has celtic and ambient influences.

What I've Done by Linkin Park is a mixture of rock and rap.

Midnight in a Perfect World (Gift of Gab Mix) by DJ Shadow is classified as turntablism. Though this particular mix is more rap.

Another piece of music that I didn't mention previously that I feel the Spirit when I listen to it is God Moving Over The Waters by Moby. It's techno.

And for the record, none of these are Christian groups.

I find To Hell With the Devil by Stryper, a Christian metal band, inspiring because it encourages you to rebel against Satan as opposed to rebelling against God. How can that possibly be a diabolical thing?

A lot of evil is perpetuated in Rap, R&B, and Hip Hop.

A lot of evil is perpetuated in metal and hard rock/rock.

There's evil in every musical genre. It does not make the genre evil. To say such genres are evil because evil is present in them is like saying that the internet is evil because there's evil on the internet.

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I have deep love and respect for our sacred hymns. I know they are powerful VERY powerful but when I just want to have fun and relax I'm obviously not gonna be apt to listen a hymn but I think choosing uplifting christian music is a good alternative to listening to secular music that centers around all the things I'm trying to avoid in my life. My favorite band has a song called "Million Voices" and yes its a rock song but its inspired by 1 peter 2:9 and it has an amazing message for the the youth of this generation!! (I have a video of them performing it live acoustic on my page if you wanna hear it) I feel like just because a person is not LDS does not mean they don't hold on to some incredible truths and alot of the christian artists I listen to write some incredible songs. I don't catagorize them with our hymns but I still enjoy them and draw meaning and hope from them. I don't think thats a bad thing.

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Perhaps the spiritual culture shift is too extreme. Let me try to describe what happens when a CCM praise song is used in worship. The song "Let It Rain," is a perfect sample. The lyrics are: Let it rain, Let it rain, Open the floodgates of heaven. The meaning of this imploring to God is that we wish for the presence, the power, the peace, the love the anointing of the Holy Spirit to "rain down" on our dry and weary souls, so that we might be empowered to serve him well in these difficult days of spiritual drought in the land.

As the song begins, the people are ushered into God's presence with a united theme. We want God! Eyes shut, hand raise, outstretched in the universal gesture of asking. That sweet presence of the Holy Spirit begins to raise down. A weary mother, at wits ends, begins to weep softly. Perhaps two or three nearby sisters will place hands on her shoulders--the might even pray for her. A bewildered, perhaps slightly wayward teen looks around in amazement--these people really believe they are in contact with God!

I could go on. I've heard stories of this particular song being played for over an hour, at a youth camp, while the young people prayed to God, prayed for each other, some converted, some gained peace they'd never experienced, others sought God for healing, for help in troubled familes, etc.

I love the hymns...but if this is going to be dismissed as platitudes with no substance, just because it's simple, I'd respond, how many hymns have brought people into communion with God in such ways? Perhaps some have. And so I'd repeat--there is no battle between hymns and praise choruses. Why force one. If Jesus is lifted up, He will draw people to himself.

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The one word that's been repeated here that really stands out to me is "irreverent". It also struck me when I read "It is a time of joy, but a time of quiet joy." and "Loud talking and loud laughter are not fitting in the house of the Lord." (Edit: not in this thread, but in a book - Preparing to Enter the Holy Temple.)

David danced in joy before the Lord wearing priestly robes. There was shouting, tambourines, lyres and trumpets. In the OT, people used cymbals, rattles and tambourines. Psalm 98 calls us to "Shout for joy to the Lord, all the earth, burst into jubilant song with music; make music to the Lord with the harp, with the harp and the sound of singing, with trumpets and the blast of the ram's horn - shout for joy before the Lord, the King." Was David an irreverent or disrespectful man (concerning God)?

I'd rather say that David was a man who celebrated in, with, and for God. I dare say he also had a great deal of respect for God. Why can't we have joyful, celebretous expressions while still respecting God? Although often appropriately expressed in such a way, respect or reverence isn't necessarily quietness. That is, one is not necessarily being irreverent by using such expressions.

Don't get my wrong, I love hymns; I grew up with a lot of Catholic influence. They're still my favourite songs. Hymns and CCMs are both music, yes, but they serve different purposes. I think there should be a use of both, but to call CCM irreverent ... Well, to put an analogy to it, it's like (to me) saying that it is disrespectful to throw a surprise party (a celebration) for your parents.

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I should first state- again- that I see little 'wrong' with most CCM- as others have said, and I echo, it's another viable form of entertainment. I admit it is not my preferred cup of tea. However, I do not condemn the whole gambit of what can be called 'CCM' except in two cases: I condemn only certain types (which I have called 'hypocrisy incarnate'), and I condemn the practice of replacing hymns with CCM. Of course, take my condemnations with a grain of salt- I am a man of no authoritative import.

Maxel, no one here is suggesting that we should replace Hymns with Contemporary Christain Music. CCM is supposed to be supplementary to hymns.
I admit I brought up the act of replacing hymns with CCM's. However, I mention it because I see it as an extremely important and vital issue regarding this topic. I stated, many times, that as regular music CCM is fine (in most cases). It is important because most CCM I've heard simply does not invite the actual Spirit of God, but a form of Feel-Goodness. Someone can think I'm too 'narrow' and that I am taking my own definition of 'spirituality' too far and imposing on others' views; everyone's entitled to their own opinions. However, I think I'm following the same principle Christ's prophets laid out when they said to 'test the spirits' and to 'cling to that which is good'. If someone, through innocence, equates Feel-Goodness with the Spirit of God, then that person's perception of righteousness is harmed. It was Joseph Smith who said "[f]or nothing is a greater injury to the children of men, then to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the spirit of God." He also stated:
Joseph Smith (This quote can be found under the commentary for Acts 16:18)

The Shaker will whirl around on his heel, impelled by a supernatural agency or spirit, and think that he is governed by the Spirit of God; and the Jumper will jump and enter into all kinds of extravagances. A Primitive Methodist will shout under the influence of that spirit, until he will rend the heavens with his cries; while the Quakers (or Friends) moved as they think, by the Spirit of God, will sit still and say nothing. Is God the author of all this? If not of all of it, which does He recognize? Surely, such a heterogeneous mass of confusion never can enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Every one of these professes to be competent to try his neighbor's spirit, but no one can try his own, and what is the reason? Because they have not a key to unlock, no rule wherewith to measure, and no criterion whereby they can test it… We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood, and having a knowledge of the laws by which spirits are governed; for as no man knows the things of God, but by the Spirit of God, so no man knows the spirit of the devil, and his power and influence, but by possessing intelligence which is more than human, and having unfolded through the medium of the Priesthood the mysterious operations of his devices.

I don't doubt the good intentions of the producers of CCM, but I will not budge from my position that the spirit they usually evoke is not the Spirit of God- and that is particularly bad because innocent listeners believe they are feeling the Spirit of God when they are, instead, feeling another spirit. Therefore, the replacement of hymns with them is bad, as is assuming they are another viable form of 'worship'. Again, the most significant way CCM is vitally different from other popular music (aside from lyrics) is that many 'modernized' churches feel it evokes the Spirit of God and as a sufficient replacement for hymns- which they usually are not.

I am sorry you've had such negative experiences, but hating a genre of music because of a few people who sucked liked it strikes me as close minded.
I put my own feelings first to show my general opinion and be perfectly honest with everyone. My personal tastes in music are not 'closed minded'- I don't like some CCM for sundry reasons. I like some CCM (as I stated in my first post) for other reasons.

Also, a tacit reason I stated my experience was to give an example of what I said. Someone rocking out and 'worshiping' Christ through listening to CCM and then having orgies is not an example of someone feeling the Spirit of God- yet they exhibited the exact same behavior as witnessed in many Protestant churches. I guarantee you they would not be listening to hymns- any hymns- in the same manner.

This right here says to me that you have a problem with specific genres that do not fall in your personal category of spirituality.
From the mouth of President Monson:
President Monson

[M]usic can, by its tempo, beat, intensity, and lyrics, dull your spiritual sensitivity.

Of course, he was only echoing a former President of the Church, who stated:
President Benson

Music can, by its tempo, by its beat, by its intensity [and I would add by its lyrics], dull the spiritual sensitivity of men.

Who, of course, was only echoing another former President of the Church- Boyd K. Packer. The belief that 'specific genres of music' are not bad only in my own eyes 'just because they don't fall into my own personal category of spirituality' does not originate from me, nor did I think of it on my own. I learned it from the modern prophets.
I stand as a witness that no genre of music is inherently evil. It's what people do with such genres that make it evil.
Genres must be defined by certain musical characteristics, and certain musical characteristics are inherently evil (in the sense that they drive away the Spirit of God). Combine those certain musical characteristics in ways required for certain music to be placed within a certain genre makes that combination of characteristics wholly evil.
How many fights do parents and kids get in with each other over music? If your kid likes rap find uplifting rap music, the kind that's not full of violence and sex. If your kid likes metal find the uplifting metal that's not satanic or hailing oden. Parents and children would both be happier if they did this.
I'm sorry... there is no truly uplifting rap or metal music, as I understand the genres. They're too intense for feeling the spirit. In fact, if we want to get down to brass tacks, there is little music that, by its own merit, is truly conducive to the Spirit of God. Like you said, it's what people bring to the music that really counts- it's a person's personal connection with the music that might invoke the Spirit of God, and different styles of music drives away that ability to make that connection. If a person feels the spirit when listening to those types of music, it is highly doubtful that the music itself brought on the spirit.
Did you listen to the songs I posted links to on page two of this thread? You know, the ones where I've felt the Spirit? Allow me to give you the genres of each.
I tried; I couldn't listen to any of them. My computer blocks YouTube, and reading the lyrics without hearing the music is useless in this case.
Let Go by Frou Frou is a sort of new age pop with techno ambient influences.

See Who I Am by Within Temptation is operatic metal.

Aurora by Origa (a Russian woman of Japanese descent) is classified as pop, but clearly has celtic and ambient influences.

What I've Done by Linkin Park is a mixture of rock and rap.

Midnight in a Perfect World (Gift of Gab Mix) by DJ Shadow is classified as turntablism. Though this particular mix is more rap.

I too have felt the actual Spirit of God when listening to a wide variety of genres of music. Doesn't mean I feel they should replace hymns- nor does it mean I condone the entire genre of music. I said before, I find little wrong with the bulk of CCM- I only condemn the kind that is hypocrisy incarnate, which I cannot cite examples of.
I find To Hell With the Devil by Stryper, a Christian metal band, inspiring because it encourages you to rebel against Satan as opposed to rebelling against God. How can that possibly be a diabolical thing?
Think about that- it's telling a person to use satanic practices (rebellion) against Satan himself. How on earth is that the promotion of godliness? Also, are you seriously suggesting I take this example of a Christian band that uses 'Hell' as a curse in the title of their song as an example of a band that invokes the Spirit through unconventional means? Judging from the lyrics and my very little knowledge of what metal music sounds like, I can assume they stir up a person to anger against the devil. That is bad because:
3 Nephi 11:29

29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

The devil laughs at the rich irony of a person stirring others up to anger against the devil, as both parties are unknowingly acting in accord with Satan's own means of expression and existence. Both parties are drawn closer to hell, and only repentance- the conventional, Christ-approved method of repentance- can redeem them. At the last day, many will say to Christ, 'have we not... in they name done many wonderful works?', but then 'will [Christ] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.' (Matthew 7:22-23)
A lot of evil is perpetuated in Rap, R&B, and Hip Hop.

A lot of evil is perpetuated in metal and hard rock/rock.

There's evil in every musical genre. It does not make the genre evil. To say such genres are evil because evil is present in them is like saying that the internet is evil because there's evil on the internet.

No, it's not. The internet is a network still extant despite any web pages. If we are to compare 'the internet' to music, then the existence of 'the internet' is the existence of all the physical phenomena required to make music work- matter, vibration, pitch, etc. The web pages can be compared to songs, and web page genres can be compared to musical genres. I say all pornographic websites are evil; I daresay all extreme heavy metal is evil because of the parameters a piece of music is required to meet before it fits the category. Pornographic websites must have pornography of some form; heavy metal must (traditionally) have 'loud distorted guitars, emphatic rhythms, dense bass-and-drum sound, and vigorous vocals' (Heavy metal music). Edited by Maxel

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The one word that's been repeated here that really stands out to me is "irreverent". It also struck me when I read "It is a time of joy, but a time of quiet joy." and "Loud talking and loud laughter are not fitting in the house of the Lord." (Edit: not in this thread, but in a book - Preparing to Enter the Holy Temple.)

David danced in joy before the Lord wearing priestly robes. There was shouting, tambourines, lyres and trumpets. In the OT, people used cymbals, rattles and tambourines. Psalm 98 calls us to "Shout for joy to the Lord, all the earth, burst into jubilant song with music; make music to the Lord with the harp, with the harp and the sound of singing, with trumpets and the blast of the ram's horn - shout for joy before the Lord, the King." Was David an irreverent or disrespectful man (concerning God)?

The pithy question is: was David in the House of the Lord worshiping Him while dancing jovially? I agree with the advice given in Psalm 98. However, I see nowhere it advising us to do so inside our meetinghouses during our time to gather together to reflect on the mercies and nature of God. I see nowhere it telling us to dance and shout inside the temple of God.

Don't get my wrong, I love hymns; I grew up with a lot of Catholic influence. They're still my favourite songs. Hymns and CCMs are both music, yes, but they serve different purposes. I think there should be a use of both, but to call CCM irreverent ... Well, to put an analogy to it, it's like (to me) saying that it is disrespectful to throw a surprise party (a celebration) for your parents.

EXACTLY- they serve different purposes. One should not attempt to replace the traditional role of hymns in church meetings- which I understand as the correct use of music in worship meetings- with the use of modern CCM's, which, as you said, serve a different purpose. One's parents would not like a surprise birthday party thrown in the middle of an important business meeting, or at a serious occasion. At the least, they would prefer a surprise party thrown at another time in another place, as the nature of the party detracts from the current proceedings. (Ecclesiastes 3:1)

I should note that all my comments here have been in defense of my own usage of the term 'irreverent' when applied to CCM's- which have always been applied in correlation to the issue of replacing hymns with CCM's.

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Maxel's issue concerning replacing hymns with CCM is relevent, in that most evangelical churches have done so, to a great extent. Furthermore, our church leadership (Assemblies of God), for the most part, is encouraging this shift. Then again, 30 years ago, we might sing one or two hymns, and two or three choruses. Our reasoning is that hymns are primarily "sermons set to music," whereas choruses (whether CCM, or the part of the hymn at the bottom of the page) are meant to drive home a particular idea, and to be memorable enough that the worshipper can sing from memory, and allow God's Spirit to anoint during the singing.

There is a place in corporate worship for both hymns and worship choruses, regardless of the era in which they are written. Further, that a hymn is 120 years old, versus 5-10 years, is not necessarily and indication that is is holier or more sanctified.

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