I Know That Fill In The Blank Is True

[Snow]

In my ward in the last Fast and Testimony mtg a child got up - about six years old - and repeated, just as mommy and daddy had instructed her to repeat, "I know that the Church is true."

Is it better to tell children what to say and compel them by rote to repeat it and repeat it - or is it better to teach children about faith, how one develops faith, what the role of faith is compared to knowledge and then let me develop a real testimony on their own?

Which is more honest?

Which results in most spiritual health?

[Dravin]

I recall a letter read from the pulpit where we were told that parents shouldn't drag their children up and tell them what to say just so they could bear their 'testimony', if such kids of their own volition want to get up and bear their testimony without coaching that's fine however. That kinds sums up my thoughts on the matter as well even if I'm misremembering the letter.

[Maxel]

Well, between your two choices, Snow- teaching a child about faith vs. turning them into mindless testimony-bearing automatons- the obvious answer is that we should teach the child about faith.

Which is the right answer. But it doesn't rule out encouraging a child to bear their testimony, even if that encouraging includes coaching. Such semi-mindless coaching shouldn't become the regular occurrence for young children, but I feel they need to become comfortable bearing testimony- for a child, that might mean having mommy and daddy coach them and/or go up with them and whisper what to say in their ear a few times. In the end, what's most important (when it comes to bearing testimony) to teach a child is initiative and experience.

Teaching a child to bear testimony and fostering faith are two different things.

[Moksha]

Which is more honest?

A testimony freely given by a person old enough to form their own thoughts.

Which results in most spiritual health?

Bearing a whispered testimony seems more like a form of indoctrination and would therefore be spiritually unhealthy.

.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Sometimes a child may feel a testimony and want to stand up in Sacrament Meeting and bear that testimony but not actually knowhow to put into words what it is that they feel. Or they may arrive on the stand and suddenly be overcome by nerves. I feel it is better under both those circumstances to help and encourage them and if this means prompting them gently on what to say then so be it. As the child becomes more comfortable with standing there in front of the congregation and more confident in expressing themselves they will put their own testimony into their own words,which may come out as simple as "I love Jesus, amen"

If on the other hand a parent continually pushes, or pulls a reluctant child out to the front month after month in order to repeat parrot fashion some pre-rehearsed meaningless drivel then there is nothing to be gained by that at all and it could actually end up being counter productive.

[Gwen]

my son always wanted to get up and share his testimony but would get scared so we'd go with him (when he requested, not pushing) and help him. now that he is older (he's been doing this for awhile, 7yrs) he will go up on his own, every month and share his testimony. one thing i'm working on teaching him is his sound more like "talks" than "testimonies" but given that is pretty much what most of the branch does so it's the example he has he's doing very good. he puts a lot of forethought into his testimonies. he loves fast sunday.

one sunday he was so excited that every time the branch pres sounded like he might be done he would stand up. so he was standing up, sitting down, standing up, sitting down. lol my son is usually the first to get up. when the branch pres was done he said something like, now we'll have e. share his testimony and then we'll turn the time over....

another sunday he, like always, jumps up first gets a couple feet from the pulpit and stops, shakes his head with a confused look and went and sat back down. he leans over to me and says "i'm not ready yet" i told him not to worry about it and he was about 3rd up that week.

my point (and no it's not to brag, but he is an example to me) is that it has to start somewhere. we need to be careful about judging other parents and how they raise their kids (or what their kids talents are). just cause we see a parent whispering words to a child doesn't mean they forced the child up there. you encourage good behaviors, sometimes that is what it takes. just cause the words a parent whispers are basic and common doesn't mean that's not all the parent has. we all do the best we can. no we shouldn't traumatize our children with sharing a testimony but you should encourage them when they feel the desire to do righteous things. i will not criticize a parent doing their best at that.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Gwen

[beefche]

Sometimes a child may feel a testimony and want to stand up in Sacrament Meeting and bear that testimony but not actually knowhow to put into words what it is that they feel. Or they may arrive on the stand and suddenly be overcome by nerves. I feel it is better under both those circumstances to help and encourage them and if this means prompting them gently on what to say then so be it. As the child becomes more comfortable with standing there in front of the congregation and more confident in expressing themselves they will put their own testimony into their own words,which may come out as simple as "I love Jesus, amen"

If on the other hand a parent continually pushes, or pulls a reluctant child out to the front month after month in order to repeat parrot fashion some pre-rehearsed meaningless drivel then there is nothing to be gained by that at all and it could actually end up being counter productive.

Actually, I think a child who is not baptized and wants to bear testimony should be restrained by the parent while in Sacramanet meeting. The child can bear testimony in Primary or even better, at home. Parents can have a "testimony" meeting at home in which unbaptized children can bear testimony, learn how to bear testimony, learn what's appropriate and gain a lot from that experience.

That's my take based on how my best friend raised her children. They were allowed to bear testimony in Sacrament once they were baptized and able to do it on their own without someone whispering to them. My ward's bishop gave a 5th Sunday teaching to thw whole ward (he canceled all classes and had all families present). One of the things he discussed was that Sacrament testimony meeting is for members of the Church to bear testimony. He asked parents to not allow their small children to stand up and bear testimony--Primary can accomodate that. He also asked the full time missionaries to explain to their investigators that this time is for members to bear testimony. Since that time, we've had a reduction in small children and investigators bearing testimony. Bishop does not do anything in public to the individual if they are not members (just this past testimony meeting, we had an investigator bear testimony, without reprucussions from bishop). I think my Bishop was inspired to do such (and I believe it says something about it in the CHI).

[Gwen]

if i had stopped my son i don't know that he would be willing to get up now. there is a moment for every stage of our development and that should not be stifled. some of the most powerful testimonies shared in our branch have been those of investigators.... some joined some did not. i do see how it could be different in a large ward where there isn't enough time and there are other opportunities. in our branch we are to small, the separate auxiliaries do not have testimony time, sacrament meeting is it. to be honest there are sundays every person in the room could take 2 min and not fill the full time block. i think every situation, family and unit is unique and it's not our place to cast judgment on another's testimony.

[beefche]

I'm not casting judgment on another's testimony. I am simply stating that I think it's appropriate for small children who are unbaptized to bear testimony in another setting. As a parent, teaching one's children when it is appropriate to bear testimony should be done PRIOR to the child standing up in Sacrament. I remember well the time my friend's unbaptized daughter whispered to her mom that she wanted to bear testimony. My friend gently and lovingly reminded her that she can do so at home or once she's baptized. In fact, my friend made it sound like a wonderful gift upon her 8th birthday.

That said, each person is unique, each family is unique, and each branch/ward is unique. I've yet to see my bishop publicly berate anyone for bearing a testimony. He may have taken them aside later (I was not witness to that), but I've never seen him do anything that could be offensive.

YMMV

[gabelpa]

I've got something else for you. What if the child wants to go to the pulpit, but when they reach it, they are scared and forget what they wanted to say.

[beefche]

I've got something else for you. What if the child wants to go to the pulpit, but when they reach it, they are scared and forget what they wanted to say.

Are you aiming this at me? If so, then I would ask you, what would you do with a child like that? I'm going out on a limb here, but I would guess that my answer and your answer will look remarkably alike.

[WillowTheWhisp]

We've had that happen in our Ward and the Bishop has come forward to help them.

We are told repeatedly by General Authorities that Testimony meeting is not a time for telling our life story or for travelogues about our last holiday or for giving pep talks to the rest of the Ward and yet month after month adults get up and do exactly those things. In contrast some of the simple testimonies of children are a refreshing delight.

[Churchmouse]

I don't understand what difference this all makes? I don't think I'll lose any sleep over it tonight.

In our small branch we're happy to have anyone go up rather than long periods of silence and boredom.

I suppose it's up to each Bishopric, but I would be hard pressed to tell someone not to allow their children to come to the podium.

I once lived in a branch were Primary children spoke in sacrament meeting on a regular basis. When a schuduled one in our new branch I was told that was a no-no. The Branch President told the parents she wouldn't be speaking. That seemed a little much to me. You would have thought I committed a crime. Some people take things too seriously. I doubt Father is going to be upset by a child speaking or bearing their testimony during sacrament meeting.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Churchmouse

[Madriglace]

Some of the sweetest and most intune testimonies I have heard through out my life have come from small children. For many of them the veil is very thin and they have insight that we as adults do not. But it has to be from them ... even if they need a little coaching. This is the way they learn. They are no less able to know that the church is true than some of the rest of us. The acount in the Bof M of the Saviors treatment of the children shows us how He feels about them.

[darrel]

We must humble ourselves as a little child. "For such is the Kingdom of Heaven".

[Jim108]

In my ward in the last Fast and Testimony mtg a child got up - about six years old - and repeated, just as mommy and daddy had instructed her to repeat, "I know that the Church is true."

Is it better to tell children what to say and compel them by rote to repeat it and repeat it - or is it better to teach children about faith, how one develops faith, what the role of faith is compared to knowledge and then let me develop a real testimony on their own?

Which is more honest?

Which results in most spiritual health?

"I know that the Church is true."

Little Billy, you have two choices here. You can tell mommy the church is true or you can go to bed now. Good boy Billy. See, Billy is a believer. Its a swell system is it not. Jim

[Madriglace]

"I know that the Church is true."

Little Billy, you have two choices here. You can tell mommy the church is true or you can go to bed now. Good boy Billy. See, Billy is a believer. Its a swell system is it not. Jim

The thing is ... these children are still very very close to the Savior and the veil is very very thin. At this point in their lives they may and probably do know absolutely that what they are saying is the truth ... they may need help verbalizing it but they know. It's not until later in life that they (and we) start doubting and second guessing and questioning. The testimony of a child is so sweet and so pure because of where they have come from such a short time before.

Children do and say amazing things where the gospel is concerned. I have a friend whose 4 year old grandaughter kept telling her she was going to the temple when she grew up like her friend Mary. The parents and grandparents talked about it and couldn't come up with a Mary amoung the little ones friends. They asked her who her friend Mary was and she went and pointed to the nativity scene under the Christmas tree. Did she make it up or was she in communication? A young boy in our ward at about 5 would get up and bear his testimony very very eloquently ... nearly a sermon worthy of a GA ... a year later he could barely talk in front of stangers. How could he bear this type of testimony with absolutely accurate doctrine by himself at this age?

Personally I never doubt a childs testimony ... they have been where I want to be more recently than I have. Yes they may hear these things from parents and be taught these things but who are we to judge how much they know at that point in their lives any more than we would judge the testimony of another adult?

[Just_A_Guy]

"I know that the Church is true."

Little Billy, you have two choices here. You can tell mommy the church is true or you can go to bed now. Good boy Billy. See, Billy is a believer. Its a swell system is it not. Jim

Sadly, Mormons have no monopoly on this kind of behavior.

[beefche]

"I know that the Church is true."

Little Billy, you have two choices here. You can tell mommy the church is true or you can go to bed now. Good boy Billy. See, Billy is a believer. Its a swell system is it not. Jim

So, what are you saying? That a child cannot receive revelation from God? That God can't/won't speak to children?

I didn't know the church was true at 8 years old, but I knew that Jesus loved me and that He was real. I certainly don't remember my parents dangling a brownie in front of my nose to help me realize that.

[Moksha]

Sadly, Mormons have no monopoly on this kind of behavior.

Langston Hughes certainly was a good writer. I found this last line from the link very poignant:

That night, for the first time in my life but one for I was a big boy twelve years old - I cried. I cried, in bed alone, and couldn't stop. I buried my head under the quilts, but my aunt heard me. She woke up and told my uncle I was crying because the Holy Ghost had come into my life, and because I had seen Jesus. But I was really crying because I couldn't bear to tell her that I had lied, that I had deceived everybody in the church, that I hadn't seen Jesus, and that now I didn't believe there was a Jesus anymore, since he didn't come to help me.

[Traveler]

When my children were young I always encouraged them to experience spiritual things and to make an effort to express such experiences. The rule of thumb I encouraged them to follow was to come to sacrament meeting having fasted and prayed before attempting to share their testimonies.

Very few children will do something that they have not learned and seldom will they learn something they were not taught. However, with my children, especially when they were young, I was often surprised and amazed with what they actually learned. Sometimes my surprise and amazement was pleasing and sometimes I was embarrassed.

The Traveler

[Snow]

The thing is ... these children are still very very close to the Savior and the veil is very very thin. At this point in their lives they may and probably do know absolutely that what they are saying is the truth ... they may need help verbalizing it but they know. It's not until later in life that they (and we) start doubting and second guessing and questioning. The testimony of a child is so sweet and so pure because of where they have come from such a short time before.

So a small Muslim or Jehovah's Witness, or Pentecostal child who bears some sort of testimony that they know their Church is the true one is speaking from a knowledgeable position of a thin veil?

Or is it just Mormon children who have a thin veil?

[Snow]

It's not that children bearing testimonies that bothers me.

It is not the coaching a child on what to say that is troubling.

Specifically it is the coaching a child to say that they "know" such and such to be true. They don't know - they BELIEVE because that is what they have been taught to believe - just as Evangelical or Baptist children believe what they have been taught.

When I bear my testimony, I say that "I believe" or that "I have faith that..." Some adults may think that they do not have faith, but rather have knowledgem that such and such is true and so report in their testimony (though I'd dispute they possess knowledge instead of faith and conviction), but children don't have knowledge, they simply believe - they are exercising faith... and testimonies should reflect the reality of a person's situation.

[Madriglace]

So a small Muslim or Jehovah's Witness, or Pentecostal child who bears some sort of testimony that they know their Church is the true one is speaking from a knowledgeable position of a thin veil?

Or is it just Mormon children who have a thin veil?

All of these sweet spirit s come from the same place ... no doubt there. But do they recognize what they see or hear or feel for what it is? Who knows.

[Madriglace]

It's not that children bearing testimonies that bothers me.

It is not the coaching a child on what to say that is troubling.

Specifically it is the coaching a child to say that they "know" such and such to be true. They don't know - they BELIEVE because that is what they have been taught to believe - just as Evangelical or Baptist children believe what they have been taught.

When I bear my testimony, I say that "I believe" or that "I have faith that..." Some adults may think that they do not have faith, but rather have knowledgem that such and such is true and so report in their testimony (though I'd dispute they possess knowledge instead of faith and conviction), but children don't have knowledge, they simply believe - they are exercising faith... and testimonies should reflect the reality of a person's situation.

Sorry to disagree but when I say I know the church is true that is exactly what I mean. Everyone of us is at a differnt stage of our progression ... on a different line and a different precept. What I know you may not have gotten to and what you know I may still be working on.

When children say they know something in the gospel is true I think we have to take them at their word because we cannot know that they don't know it anymore than we know an adult is just using faith. That is between them and their Savior and not for us to judge. it is for us to listen for the Spirit to comfirm the belief in our own lives. For me that's usually a warm tingley feeling from head to toe and I love getting it!