Church discipline

[h2001st]

does anyone know (roughly) the percentage of those disfellowed vs. excommunicated in your church? then what is the percentage of those who want to return to an "active" status?

[Palerider]

does anyone know (roughly) the percentage of those disfellowed vs. excommunicated in your church? then what is the percentage of those who want to return to an "active" status?

not aware that there are stats kept on the subject....just like other churches do not keep track....

[bytor2112]

Thanks so much for the thoughts, opinions and comments....they are all very enlightening and very much appreciated.

-Bytor

[Jim108]

So true. Thank God he has restored his kingdom (aka the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) here on earth so that we can find the Way.

I've noticed you use the term "wretched" quite a bit, Jim. Judging by its inclusion in the hymn Amazing Grace, I gather it's a common and popular term among some Christian sects, but it's not a term much used among Latter-day Saints. As I understand the word, it means a despicable person meriting scorn. Is that what you mean by it?

If so, understand that we Latter-day Saints don't typically think in such terms. While we acknowledge our unworthiness before God and our inability to save ourselves by our own power, we think of human beings as children of a divine Father. We don't dwell on the fallen, "wretched" condition of mankind so much as we recognize and strive for the Godly potential inherent in each of us. Saying, "Well, you know, we're all wretches anyway, so don't worry about such-and-such a sin" doesn't really carry much weight with Latter-day Saints, since we don't see our fallen nature as a legitimate excuse to live in squalor.

As for pointing fingers, there is a world of difference between saying "So-and-so commited Sin X, which is a grevious sin; punishment typically consists of Y and Z", and saying "So-and-so commited Sin X, the scumbag!"

"Is that what you mean by it?"

Yes it is. You, I and every person who has ever lived is wretched save Jesus. We can only be cleaned by the blood of the lamb. And all you have to do is to accept the gift. It is free and it was paid for twothousand years ago. Believe and you are save by the grace of God.

"We don't dwell on the fallen, "wretched" condition of mankind so much"

I would love to see you talk to John the Baptist about that. What was it he said. hhhmmmm. God Bless, Jim

[Vort]

"Is that what you mean by it?"

Yes it is. You, I and every person who has ever lived is wretched save Jesus.

In what sense do you believe an innocent newborn babe to be "a despicable person meriting scorn"?

We can only be cleaned by the blood of the lamb. And all you have to do is to accept the gift. It is free and it was paid for twothousand years ago.

This much is true, and Biblical.

Believe and you are save by the grace of God.

That totally depends on what you mean by "believe". If by "believe" you mean accept the word of Christ and let it act on you such that you repent and come unto Christ, then of course I agree with you. If by "believe" you mean acknowledge with words alone that "Jesus is my Savior", then go off and live however you like because you're magically "saved", then no, I don't agree.

"We don't dwell on the fallen, "wretched" condition of mankind so much"

I would love to see you talk to John the Baptist about that. What was it he said. hhhmmmm.

I, too, would love that. In fact, there are any number of historical figures in addition to John the Baptist with whom I would love to talk about that statement.

[Jamie123]

...why would someone who disbelieves the LDS Church's authority participate in...an LDS-oriented discussion list?

1. Only Mormons believe in the authority of the LDS Church.

2. Not all members of this site are Mormons.

3. Those who are not Mormons by definition disbelieve in LDS authority.

Why do such people participate in an LDS-oriented forum? Because they understand this site is open to everyone and are grateful for this opportunity to learn about a different faith from their own.

However: I think trouble arises because many non-LDS find it difficult not to view things in the light of their own religious traditions. Most people with a Protestant (or even a liberal Catholic) background tend to see repentance as a personal thing between themselves and God: They might discuss their sins with a minister or priest, and even be given some form of penance to help their repentance, but that would be an informal and strictly private thing.

Vort: If non-LDS are welcome here, LDS-members cannot expect always to hear LDS-oriented opinions expressed on the forum. It's not always easy for a non-LDS to put his/her preconceptions aside and see things from an LDS perspective. On the other hand, its often difficult for LDS members to see where non-LDS are coming from. There's bound to be a lot of pointless back-and-forth cross-purposes argument, unless we try to understand the differences between our religious worldviews.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Jamie123

[Maya]

MarginofError, Why would the church deny anyone's request to return to the church of the lord? To me that does not make any sense?

Sometimes also a return of somebody can be too difficult for the people/a person in the church so, even though the excom wants to they cant let him back before they know the people/a person in the church can forgive. If the excom is really rependant he/she understandes this, if not he/she maybe will never get back. Then ofcourse there is the possibility that the bishop, stakepresident dont feel the person has repended... then arises the question, what is expected the excom would do, and if he/she has done all that and still waits... After all we are dealing with people here on this earth.

Yes it is a tough time, but it will pass and why did that person have to be so stupid in the first place to do what ever he/she did to get excommunicated! You make a mistake you pay for it! There is no mother dear here!

[prospectmom]

You make a mistake you pay for it! There is no mother dear here!

Sounds so unchrist-like when said that way ... The truth of the matter church disipline is the most loving thought out process. It is not thought out as punishment but a way to help a person realize and face their errors.... Sometimes the way it is potrayed is very negative....... just not so... If done right and the person is willing even more fellowship and care is givin to that person to get him or her on the right track.... No one is ever excommunicared and abandoned unless they choose that path..... A Bishops / wards personal responsibility for that dear person still remains.....

[rameumptom]

When people have a renewed interest in God, should they be punished for past indiscretions or should they be welcomed into the fellowship of the Gospel?

I think the underlying question is one that has not been thoroughly answered when I hear it depends on the Bishop.

:confused:

The issue isn't about punishing. The issue is ensuring a person is right before the Lord, so the person can merit the Celestial Kingdom. The Bishop (or in this case, the stake president), is the judge in Israel. Each case is different, as each individual has repented or not repented to certain levels. Reviewing the case of a teenager who has committed fornication is very different than a bishop who has committed adultery. Level of understanding, responsibility, and how public an event all come into play.

Whatever it takes for a person to repent, the Lord will guide the Bishop to do. Repentance on such a serious sin is not an easy thing to do. It isn't just saying, "I'm sorry." It takes deep remorse for the sin, and time to ensure it does not occur again. Our world today makes sexual sin seem like it is not a big thing. But it is.

Those who commit sexual sin are bound for spirit prison hell (D&C 19) and the Telestial Kingdom, IF they do not fully repent. Repentance is determined by God, not us. God chastises those who require humbling and repentance. The Book of Mormon tells us that time and again. It isn't about being mean to the person, it is about helping the person get right before God after committing the third most heinous spiritual crime.

[Jamie123]

...third most heinous spiritual crime.

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but what are the first two most heinous crimes?

[Jim108]

Sometimes also a return of somebody can be too difficult for the people/a person in the church so, even though the excom wants to they cant let him back before they know the people/a person in the church can forgive. If the excom is really rependant he/she understandes this, if not he/she maybe will never get back. Then ofcourse there is the possibility that the bishop, stakepresident dont feel the person has repended... then arises the question, what is expected the excom would do, and if he/she has done all that and still waits... After all we are dealing with people here on this earth.

Yes it is a tough time, but it will pass and why did that person have to be so stupid in the first place to do what ever he/she did to get excommunicated! You make a mistake you pay for it! There is no mother dear here!

"You make a mistake you pay for it! There is no mother dear here!"

Jesus paid in full for all of our sins on that cross. "It is done". Why won't you believe Jesus. Jim

[Madriglace]

Jesus paid in full for all of our sins on that cross. "It is done". Why won't you believe Jesus. Jim

The Savior went into the Garden to take upon Himself the sins of the world because there was no one else that could do it ... no one else could endure the pain that was required. I made Him suffer for the things that I would do ... a very humbling thought. He endured the pain so we would not have to. The gift was freely given out of love for us, all he asked was "If ye love me keep my commandments." If we love Him. Once we accept the Atonement it becomes our responsibility to do as He asks. He knew we would fail from time to time and in His infinite wisdom He set up the process of repentance and forgiveness to aid us in our progression.

With each sin come consequences that we cannot get past. If we choose to sin then we need to be ready to live with the consequences. For LDS members there are certain actions that would have a discipljnary council as a consequence of that action ... we know that and accept it. It isn't easy but the alternative just isn't worth the risk. Each council is different and set by the circumstances and the people involved. They are entirely private and loving. If people outside those involved find out it is because it has been talked about. It is not announced over the pulpit.

For LDS members to believe just isn't enough ... we feel deeply that action is required of us to move us along our path back home. We are counseled to endure to the end ... and do it well. We have no doubt by and through who's name we are saved but we also realize what we must do as well. To paraphrase ... we claim the right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men the same, let them worship how, where or what they may. If believing is enough for you that's great but please allow us the priviledge of loving, worshipping and obeying our Lord as we see fit.

[h2001st]

not aware that there are stats kept on the subject....just like other churches do not keep track....

well I wasn't looking for an exact number- but I'm sure all churches do keep track. Whether it's published or not is another story. It seems all churches do a good job noting status (active, inactive/disfellowed, excom, annulments, remarriages, statistical difference between those married temporally or sealed etc.)

...but that's for another thread:).

[Vort]

"You make a mistake you pay for it! There is no mother dear here!"

Jesus paid in full for all of our sins on that cross. "It is done". Why won't you believe Jesus. Jim

Jim,

What do you think it means to "believe Jesus"?

Consider the following situations:

• A teenager involved in drugs and promiscuity goes to a church meeting and gets fired up about salvation. He loudly and publicly proclaims, "Jesus, I love you! I believe you! Come into my life!" From that moment on, he considers himself "saved". He does not modify his behavior very much; he still smokes pot and sleeps around as he can.
• A prostitute reads a pamphlet on salvation, and says with full purpose of heart, "Jesus, save me! I accept you as my Savior!" Then she services her next john and prepares for the next night's business.
• A rich old man, troubled by his life of dishonesty and white-collar theft, is told about Jesus by a friend. He admits Christ as his Savior and publicly confesses his name. From that moment, his friend tells him, he is saved. The man makes no attempt to repay the money he wrongly embezzled or otherwise rectify the harmful effects of his past sins.

Do all or any of these qualify as "believing Jesus"?

In your opinion, are all or any of these people justified by the blood of the Lamb?

[Guest missingsomething]

Bytor-

my two cents?

First, this is between your friend, the bishop and the Lord. While we may not be able to judge his actions and his heart, the Lord can and will. A sin is a sin is a sin - even if you are just pretending to believe - if you have been told it is wrong and you do it - it is still wrong. How much and how hard will the repentence process be? Does it matter? I mean, repent = have eternal life.... Isnt it worth anything it takes?

[Maya]

"You make a mistake you pay for it! There is no mother dear here!"

Jesus paid in full for all of our sins on that cross. "It is done". Why won't you believe Jesus. Jim

Jim I believe in Jesus... I just dont believe in men!

[Jim108]

Jim I believe in Jesus... I just dont believe in men!

I agree, however, we must love and forgive our fellow man, Jim

[Vort]

I agree, however, we must love and forgive our fellow man, Jim

Jim,

You must have missed my questions on the previous page. Here they are again:

You, I and every person who has ever lived is wretched save Jesus.

In what sense do you believe an innocent newborn babe to be wretched, that is, "a despicable person meriting scorn"?

Jesus paid in full for all of our sins on that cross. "It is done". Why won't you believe Jesus. Jim

What do you think it means to "believe Jesus"?

Consider the following situations:

• A teenager involved in drugs and promiscuity goes to a church meeting and gets fired up about salvation. He loudly and publicly proclaims, "Jesus, I love you! I believe you! Come into my life!" From that moment on, he considers himself "saved". He does not modify his behavior very much; he still smokes pot and sleeps around as he can.
• A prostitute reads a pamphlet on salvation, and says with full purpose of heart, "Jesus, save me! I accept you as my Savior!" Then she services her next john and prepares for the next night's business.
• A rich old man, troubled by his life of dishonesty and white-collar theft, is told about Jesus by a friend. He admits Christ as his Savior and publicly confesses his name. From that moment, his friend tells him, he is saved. The man makes no attempt to repay the money he wrongly embezzled or otherwise rectify the harmful effects of his past sins.

Do all or any of these qualify as "believing Jesus"?

In your opinion, are all or any of these people justified by the blood of the Lamb?

[Moksha]

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but what are the first two most heinous crimes?

I would imagine murder and rape. What I want to know is what ranking is given to multi-level marketing.

[Maya]

I agree, however, we must love and forgive our fellow man, Jim

Yeah I quess some people are around to learn that. It is especially hard today, when the word says you dont need to! Or the world says their way is right and yours is wrong.... mormons are wrong, in forgiving or expecting it ot happen.

[rameumptom]

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but what are the first two most heinous crimes?

Denying the Gift of the Holy Ghost (being a Son of Perdition), and murder (see Alma's talk to his son Corianton).

[Jamie123]

Denying the Gift of the Holy Ghost (being a Son of Perdition), and murder (see Alma's talk to his son Corianton).

Thank you, rameumptom.

The idea that fornication should be considered a "spiritual sin" is a little strange to me. Over the years, I've come to view sexual immorality less serious than other sins since (like gluttony or sloth) it comes form a simple carnal desire, not from any deep-rooted spiritual pride. Of course, not saying that lust isn't dangerous, or that (unless repented of) it doesn't damage our relationships with our partners and with God. But it is immeasurably less serious than other things of which Man is capable.

(I'm not claiming necessarily to be right about this. I'm merely trying to explain where I'm coming from.)

On the other hand, I can begin to understand though where the LDS position comes from: The ability to copulate and thus create children is (as I understand it - please correct me if I'm wrong) part of God's creative power devolved upon mankind. If we use it wrongly, we are abusing what is effectively a "priesthood authority". I've often considered this a weak point in LDS doctrine since - if applied consistently - it would require a ban any form of non-procreative sex. But I read somewhere recently (possibly on this site) that the Church does recognize a secondary function of sex as a means of bringing marriage partners closer together.

(Another thought: Plants and animals also have the power to reproduce themselves. Does this mean they too share in God's creative act?)

Edited April 6, 2009 by Jamie123

[Tarnished]

If so, understand that we Latter-day Saints don't typically think in such terms. While we acknowledge our unworthiness before God and our inability to save ourselves by our own power, we think of human beings as children of a divine Father. We don't dwell on the fallen, "wretched" condition of mankind so much as we recognize and strive for the Godly potential inherent in each of us. Saying, "Well, you know, we're all wretches anyway, so don't worry about such-and-such a sin" doesn't really carry much weight with Latter-day Saints, since we don't see our fallen nature as a legitimate excuse to live in squalor.

What Vort says here is so very true. As LDS we believe that "no unclean thing can enter into God's presence" as our goal is to live so that when we die we can live with God we believe that we must live worthily enough to do so. This means that when we sin we do not rely on a previous repentance to take care of all our sins of life. For LDS we believe it works differently, we believe that with each sin we need additional repentance. As sin makes us "unclean" we therefore must repent so that we can be clean again to enter into God's presence. Christ suffered in Gethsemane and on the cross, and died for our sins because as imperfect beings we can not pay the price necessary to redeem ourselves, we need Christ's atonement to make up for what we lack. This however, does not mean that we do not need to repent, this does not mean that we can rely on Christ's grace alone to save us and do nothing of repentance ourselves. The atonement does not leave us blameless before God, when we have done all we can do repentance-wise then the atonement takes care of the rest.

As I mentioned, this is what LDS believe, I understand that other religions do not believe that you have to repent again and again. This is a point that as LDS we disagree on. But that is our belief and thus is something that as fellow Christians we will have to agree to disagree on.

[Faded]

"You make a mistake you pay for it! There is no mother dear here!"

Jesus paid in full for all of our sins on that cross. "It is done". Why won't you believe Jesus. Jim

I think a better answer to your question would be to explain the covenant relationship we have with Christ. Now the majority of all Christians agree that not every single person will be saved and that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ does not apply to every person. Why? Because they do not seek it. They do not seek Him, so they do not find Him.

Alternately, let us consider those who have found Christ. They enter into a covenant relationship with God. Jesus Christ pays for the sin, the sinner tries to do his very best to keep His commandments for the rest of his life. So if you have entered into that covenant relationship with the Lord, you are covered by His infinite atonement. But you can also turn around and walk right out of the covenant. The man referred to in the original post walked away from Christ and left the covenant. From that point on, Christ's atonement was not cleansing the man from sin because the man had taken his life out of the hands of God and Christ. Now that he is returning, he wishes to re-establish the covenant with the Lord. His sins are extremely serious, and for that reason the repentance process is one that requires a lot more effort and humbling himself. Church discipline is what God has prescribed in cases serious sin. The intent is not to shut the sinner out, it is to ensure that the sinner knows how seriously their actions have offended God. The road back is long and hard, exactly as God intended it. He does not want us to leave Him again. He does not want us to take sin lightly. But if we are on the road to sincere repentance, then don't doubt that God will take care of us.

I hope that helps.

[Jamie123]

As I mentioned, this is what LDS believe, I understand that other religions do not believe that you have to repent again and again. This is a point that as LDS we disagree on. But that is our belief and thus is something that as fellow Christians we will have to agree to disagree on.

I understand and pretty much agree with what you are saying. But it is not true to say that "other religions" do not believe that you have to repent again and again. If you have ever been to an Anglican communion service, you will have heard something like this:

Almighty God, our heavenly Father,

we have sinned against you and against our neighbour,

in thought and word and deed,

through negligence, through weakness,

through our own deliberate fault.

We are truly sorry

and repent of all our sins.

For the sake of your son Jesus Christ, who died for us,

forgive us all that is past;

and grant that we may serve you in newness of life

to the glory of your name. Amen.

We say that every week before receiving the sacrament (the bread and wine that contain the Real Presence of Christ). We do believe is that our repentance is only possible because Christ already paid the price for our sins, but this is not the same as saying "sin as much as you like because Christ already paid the price for it".