Conflicting Doctrine

[Soul_Searcher]

OK So here are some of the problems holding me back in church:

Conflicting teachings. I understand people have different viewpoints on certain issues. However, when they start trying to tell you thats doctrinal fact things get a little sticky.

Example 1) Coke debate. My MIL wont even have it in the house, she is borderline obsessed about it. To my parents on the other hand, its a staple of their diet. Some people in my ward see it on a par with alcohol for heavens sake! This is ridiculous to me and I feel angry and annoyed at getting judged for what I DRINK!

Example 2) I know we are all judgemental to a degree. However, I don't expect filthy looks from people who look at me like a piece of dirt when I dress in something that THEY don't approve of. Im talking maybe an inch more cleavage or leg that what they would deem appropriate.

Example 3) Some of the doctrine given by authorities in the past-birth control for example-has now been retracted. But I thought the gospel was the same yesterday today and forever? Surely the doctrine is the same? Ive looked into this a LOT and where some have said you will basically burn in hell for using contraception, others then say, Oh its upto you. How can it possibly change so drastically??

Example 4) The devil. Im not sure if Im comfortable believeing non-church thoughts are the devil. How can he influence us anyway?I thought the spirit could only tell us stuff?

These confuse me and hold me back. There's plenty more but I think thats enough to be getting on with for now!!

Edited April 9, 2009 by Soul_Searcher

[Wingnut]

1) Coke has nothing to do with doctrine. Doctrine has very little to do with Coke.

3) This has been discussed extensively on these forums. I suggest an advanced search to read more on those discussions. Doctrine stays constant, but practice and policy do change.

[Madriglace]

One of the greatest gift we were given by Heavenly Father was our agency to choose ... this is where examples #1-#3 firmly fall. These things are choice ... your choice. That I know of Coke isn't addressed. It's between you and the Lord ... same with how you dress. Birth control is between you, the Lord and your doctor. I know where you are coming from on that one though. My brothers and I were born before they knew what to do about a mother with a negative RH factor. I was the first and healthy, the brother next to me had health problems and my youngest brother went home to live with Heavenly Father. Moms doctor said she was done or she and the next baby would die. A bishop got on their cases and told them to have more kids ... not his choice or business ... whichis just what they told him. We are given agency and expected to use it wisely ... and for those who would impose their beliefs about coke and such on you ... they need to clean up their own back yard first.

As for the adversary ... there must be opposition in all things. He is allowed to tempt us just as he was allowed to tempt the Savior. He uses our weaknesses against us ... doubt is one of his best tools. He knows us and knows where to hit to do the most damage ... when he thinks we're are getting to close to the Savior he works over time. Our agency comes in here as well ... we can choose to listen or tell him to hit the road. It's not easy but with the help of the ones who love us most we can do it.

From this thread and the other one I think you are trying really hard to hold on and to do what is right but the adversary is really working over time on you. Take joy in that ... if you weren't working to stay true he wouldn't even care. My prayers are with you ... I know how hard this is.

[NeuroTypical]

Sounds like most of these aren't about conflicting teachings or changing doctrine, they're about unrighteous judgements and cultural influences.

* Ask your Bishop about coke if you're wondering about the official church position. My bishop tells me, the question he hears most from the youth is "Can drinking coke keep you out of the temple", and his answer is always "no".

* "filthy looks from people who look at me like a piece of dirt when I dress in something that THEY don't approve of" isn't about teachings, it's about you making choices and accepting the consequences. This isn't a mormon thing - this is a 'my choice of clothing will impact people' thing. Here's a bit of info it took me quite a while to learn: If you care about what people think, and then do things you know they won't approve of, you got no business complaining when they tell you what they think.

I've matured to the point where I don't really care what other people think. I care what God thinks, and what my wife thinks. And I dress so I don't tick either one of them off.

Some of the doctrine given by authorities in the past-birth control for example-has now been retracted. But I thought the gospel was the same yesterday today and forever?

The Gospel = God exists, Christ is His Son, and died for you on the cross so you can go back to heaven. That's what the Gospel is. Everything else is details. What God wants out of you isn't the gospel. Current counsel and revealation on social issues isn't the gospel. God has on different occasions commanded his people to take up arms, and to lay them down. His counsel to us is based on what we need at the time. And our needs change.

Also, not everything that comes out of the mouth of a church leader is "doctrine". Doctrine is inspired "thus saith the Lord" type stuff. Everything else represents our leader's prayerful attempt to do what is best - and sometimes they're wrong.

Im not sure if Im comfortable believeing non-church thoughts are the devil.

I have no idea what a 'non church thought' is.

LM

[Faded]

OK So here are some of the problems holding me back in church:

Conflicting teachings. I understand people have different viewpoints on certain issues. However, when they start trying to tell you thats doctrinal fact things get a little sticky.

Example 1) Coke debate. My MIL wont even have it in the house, she is borderline obsessed about it. To my parents on the other hand, its a staple of their diet. Some people in my ward see it on a par with alcohol for heavens sake! This is ridiculous to me and I feel angry and annoyed at getting judged for what I DRINK!

Ask and ye shall recieve:

http://www.lds.net/forums/learn-about-mormon-church/15251-what-heck-no-caffeine.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/19722-these-drinks-ok-church.html

I think the core of the problem with this silly debate is this:

a.) There are a lot of silly Mormons who like to live the commandment beyond what has been commanded.

b.) For some idiotic reason, members of the Church focus on the Word of Wisdom WAY TOO MUCH. The entire thing started as, "not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom." Translate that into modern English and we find, "this is not a commandment but this is good advice that will keep you out of trouble." Later on, the contents of Section 89 were upgraded to commandment status. To me, that means that it's a lesser commandment than the any of the original 10. Given the choice, the Lord would rather have us not kill, do harm, gossip, cheat, steal, commit sexual sins, etc. Word of Wisdom is important, but it's less important in my book.

c.) The General Authorities have been asked repeatedly to specifically add caffeine to the official "do not" list of the Word of Wisdom. The fact that they have not done so tells us all that we need to know.

Debate on caffeine comes from the same spirit that convinces a Home Teacher to keep putting off going to visit his families month after month after month. Its a stupid distraction, keeping us from focussing on things that are FAR MORE IMPORTANT.

In this matter, it is best to be forgiving. Church members are human and let themselves be drawn into this silly distraction. If you don't drink caffeine at all, you'll be better off for it physically. That doesn't make it a commandment. Just a good idea.

[Faded]

Example 2) I know we are all judgemental to a degree. However, I don't expect filthy looks from people who look at me like a piece of dirt when I dress in something that THEY don't approve of. Im talking maybe an inch more cleavage or leg that what they would deem appropriate.

I think it's another example of silly and useless distractions. There IS counsel to help us define what is or is not appropriate. I think it's pretty simple really. If you can wear garments as they are intended to be worn (not rolling them up, etc.) and your outfit covers them completely, then you're good.

Personally, I find that judgemental people are fun to ignore. If I'm not actually doing anything wrong then I could care less what they think. Drives a lot of them crazy when they realize that they can't get to you. Then again, I've long prided myself on being weird.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Faded

[Faded]

Example 3) Some of the doctrine given by authorities in the past-birth control for example-has now been retracted. But I thought the gospel was the same yesterday today and forever? Surely the doctrine is the same? Ive looked into this a LOT and where some have said you will basically burn in hell for using contraception, others then say, Oh its up to you. How can it possibly change so drastically??

I think LM has the right of it on this topic. It is a social issue that is not central to the actual Gospel.

For as long as I can remember, the Church's stand on birth control has not been absolute. That may have been different a long time ago I suppose. But the counsel of the leaders of the Church has long been the same: Have as many children as the Lord blesses you with + Use wisdom in all things. Consider this: If my wife and I were to accept a 100% non-interventionist stance on having children, we'll have zero because I'm 100% sterile. The Lord expects that we're capable of using our heads.

[Faded]

Example 4) The devil. Im not sure if Im comfortable believeing non-church thoughts are the devil. How can he influence us anyway? I thought the spirit could only tell us stuff?

These confuse me and hold me back. There's plenty more but I think thats enough to be getting on with for now!!

This one you'd have to qualify. "Non-Church thoughts" is seriously WAY TOO BROAD, and could mean almost anything.

Satan has the track record of always seeking to deceive us and mislead us. He will sell you on a pathway that looks completely safe, and you don't realize you were mislead until you fall off the cliff that was all-too-well disguised. He will tell you 10 truths if he can get you to believe 1 lie.

We should certainly not assume he is as limited as "just telling you suff." Consider the experience of Joseph Smith:

Joseph Smith History:

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

It sounds like Satan is capable of doing a lot more than just whispering in your ear. But the power of Satan is inferior to the power of God, so we don't need to worry ourselves too much.

God has as much influence over your life as you give him. Satan also has as much influence over your life as you give him.

[Elgama]

doctrine will always conflict we are humans looking at eternity from a mortal perspective, each of us is at a different stage in our progression. Its not so much the doctrine thats perfect as the God that teaches it

Like when you get to university and the facts at high school turn out to be theories or best guesses or just the way it works with no explanation

If doctrine does not conflict its a church that does not allow for the growth of its members - which for me is not what God is about He allows for us to learn, grow and progress. Even doctrine taught by the prophets can seem to change as we grow and understand more as a church

-Charley

[HiJolly]

I like the comments made heretofore very much.

#4. The devil can influence us, verbally, energetically, emotionally, mentally (thoughts) and more. He is not, however, the source of evil. We are. Or rather, Heavenly Father is, for unfailingly allowing us our choice. Satan is just the poster-child of exceptionally poor choices. He is real.

Joseph Smith taught that there is one thing he cannot imitate or fake, and that is the sign of the dove. Peace. Seek for peace.

HiJolly

[Soul_Searcher]

Maybe the question I am asking is, how do I deal with these things? They do affect me and I get wound up and annoyed and it makes me think how can I belong to this organisation? How can I overcome this?

[Dravin]

Maybe the question I am asking is, how do I deal with these things? They do affect me and I get wound up and annoyed and it makes me think how can I belong to this organisation? How can I overcome this?

Well, in the case of people judging, pray for the strength to forgive.

[Guest tomk]

OK So here are some of the problems holding me back in church:

Conflicting teachings. I understand people have different viewpoints on certain issues. However, when they start trying to tell you thats doctrinal fact things get a little sticky.

Example 1) Coke debate. My MIL wont even have it in the house, she is borderline obsessed about it. To my parents on the other hand, its a staple of their diet. Some people in my ward see it on a par with alcohol for heavens sake! This is ridiculous to me and I feel angry and annoyed at getting judged for what I DRINK!

Example 2) I know we are all judgemental to a degree. However, I don't expect filthy looks from people who look at me like a piece of dirt when I dress in something that THEY don't approve of. Im talking maybe an inch more cleavage or leg that what they would deem appropriate.

Example 3) Some of the doctrine given by authorities in the past-birth control for example-has now been retracted. But I thought the gospel was the same yesterday today and forever? Surely the doctrine is the same? Ive looked into this a LOT and where some have said you will basically burn in hell for using contraception, others then say, Oh its upto you. How can it possibly change so drastically??

Example 4) The devil. Im not sure if Im comfortable believeing non-church thoughts are the devil. How can he influence us anyway?I thought the spirit could only tell us stuff?

These confuse me and hold me back. There's plenty more but I think thats enough to be getting on with for now!!

Have you had the missionary discussions?

I would focus specifically on what directly blocks you from getting baptized - not nitpicking everything you don't 100% agree with or obey right now.

After baptism you'll be given a wonderful gift from our Father in Heaven which will magnify the sense of right and wrong you already have.

You will never stop having an issue of one kind or another. This has no bearing on what church you are in, or if you are an aetheist. Life is hard. You will have trials. A belief in God brings perspective.

This is all about your deep down core desires. It's about BECOMING like God.

Coke - there is no position on it, period.

Modesty - wear what you feel is appropriate. why do you wear what you wear? Motives matter and can guide modest dress.

Birth Control - not sure why this is an issue for you without more information.

Satan - Nothing would please him more than to realize you don't think he can influence you. Read Moroni 7 for info on how to judge. Is your thinking heading towards peace or despair?

[bytebear]

Everyone has free agency, and this church is a rarity in that we are not given every single answer in the world. We aren't told whether coke is good or bad, so people decide for themselves. You will always encounter people who are more strict on perceived standards, like coke and clothing. It is up to YOU to decide for yourself through study and prayer what those rules mean to you in your life. That;s what's great about the gospel. you don't have to believe anyone. Not even the prophet. But you are obligated to discover for yourself what the truth is.

[Soul_Searcher]

Have you had the missionary discussions?

I would focus specifically on what directly blocks you from getting baptized - not nitpicking everything you don't 100% agree with or obey right now.

After baptism you'll be given a wonderful gift from our Father in Heaven which will magnify the sense of right and wrong you already have.

You will never stop having an issue of one kind or another. This has no bearing on what church you are in, or if you are an aetheist. Life is hard. You will have trials. A belief in God brings perspective.

This is all about your deep down core desires. It's about BECOMING like God.

Coke - there is no position on it, period.

Modesty - wear what you feel is appropriate. why do you wear what you wear? Motives matter and can guide modest dress.

Birth Control - not sure why this is an issue for you without more information.

Satan - Nothing would please him more than to realize you don't think he can influence you. Read Moroni 7 for info on how to judge. Is your thinking heading towards peace or despair?

I am a member Tom. Thanks for ur input :)

[beefche]

Maybe the question I am asking is, how do I deal with these things? They do affect me and I get wound up and annoyed and it makes me think how can I belong to this organisation? How can I overcome this?

Look at why you get annoyed and wound up. Is it because you value their opinion? Is it because you feel that you are being judged and determined less than others? Is it because you think they are wrong and you are right?

Here's how I deal with people when I get annoyed with them: I breathe. In and out. Then I remember that we are all not perfect, some people need to judge others to feel better about themselves, some people are trying to do right and fail in their interactions with others. But, you cannot change THEM; you can only change YOURSELF. You can change your reactions, your thoughts, your management of frustrations.

Look, I've told people throughout the years while teaching in the church: decide NOW how you are going to react to people who offend you in the church--because YOU WILL get offended. I refuse to let others keep me from fulfilling my covenants with God. So do what you need to to forgive and not let others determine your salvation and happiness.

[Islander]

OK So here are some of the problems holding me back in church:

Conflicting teachings. I understand people have different viewpoints on certain issues. However, when they start trying to tell you thats doctrinal fact things get a little sticky.

Example 1) Coke debate. My MIL wont even have it in the house, she is borderline obsessed about it. To my parents on the other hand, its a staple of their diet. Some people in my ward see it on a par with alcohol for heavens sake! This is ridiculous to me and I feel angry and annoyed at getting judged for what I DRINK!

Example 2) I know we are all judgemental to a degree. However, I don't expect filthy looks from people who look at me like a piece of dirt when I dress in something that THEY don't approve of. Im talking maybe an inch more cleavage or leg that what they would deem appropriate.

Example 3) Some of the doctrine given by authorities in the past-birth control for example-has now been retracted. But I thought the gospel was the same yesterday today and forever? Surely the doctrine is the same? Ive looked into this a LOT and where some have said you will basically burn in hell for using contraception, others then say, Oh its upto you. How can it possibly change so drastically??

Example 4) The devil. Im not sure if Im comfortable believeing non-church thoughts are the devil. How can he influence us anyway?I thought the spirit could only tell us stuff?

These confuse me and hold me back. There's plenty more but I think thats enough to be getting on with for now!!

Soul:

Another item for reflection is that YOU have focused on those issues. Your MIL has never had Coke. Why would you antagonize with this her decision (let's ignore for a sec whether she is right or wrong) and make this a point of contention.

Why would you wear a dress that is too revealing/distracting/less-than-holy-thoughts-provoking to go to Sacrament...knowing full well it will elicit the "dirty looks" from some (again, ignore the quality of the membership) in the congregation?

I totally get where you are coming from. However, rather than focusing on these issues, which keep you from experiencing worship and fellowship to the fullest, find a different way, time, avenue and vehicle to express your individuality. I suspect you have a rebel streak, but I will not hold it against you.....just this time.:):):)

[minemouse]

Soul,

There is one thing that Christ gave and that is our freedom to choose. We can accept or reject his will for our lives. Drinking coke, birth control, cleavage, .. all of these things just distract from the truth. It is my own humble opinion that we have the freedom to choose life or death. This is what Christ came to this world for to save those that are lost. Not for the Pharisee who said he had no sin , not for the crowd who wanted to stone the woman for having several men, Christ said, he that is without sin cast the first stone". Anyone who passes judgement on you just because of attire or otherwise better look inward and not outward by the way this also means they are not looking upward to God. You..keep going to church and pray for those that think this way. God doesn't look at appearance he looks at the heart.--this is something a human can't do. Many may keep small rules and regulations while the major ones , like coveting a neighbor's wife, lying, cheating ,watching porn (studies say this is something that runs rampant among religious people) and premarital sex..another biggie..the list goes on and on all of these are sin and sometimes go unseen. Just do as your heart leads u and don't mind nobody else.

Edited April 9, 2009 by minemouse

[Moksha]

Example 1) Coke debate.

According to tests performed in my computer room, Coke won the taste tests hands down. For the calorie conscious, it is a toss up between Diet Coke, Diet Pepsi and the store brand (relabeled Diet Coke).

Example 2) I know we are all judgmental to a degree. However, I don't expect filthy looks from people who look at me like a piece of dirt when I dress in something that THEY don't approve of. I'm talking maybe an inch more cleavage or leg that what they would deem appropriate.

Who among us doesn't look? Yeah I know, there is overworked conformity. Consider yourself to be the Apple hammer thrower who shatters the screen which has mesmerized the IBMers. Diversity is what will make us strong.

Example 3) Some of the doctrine given by authorities in the past-birth control for example-has now been retracted.

We are the Church of Living Prophecy - of course our doctrines will be fluid as new insights and understandings come forth.

Example 4) The devil. I'm not sure if I'm comfortable believing non-church thoughts are the devil.

Yes, the mistakes and wrongdoing that we humans can make is too readily attributed to this source. However, It is always hard to tell what guises will prey upon our weaknesses.

Don't make the assumption that all people in the Church hold the same opinion or perceptions. We are individual. Establish your own comfort level.

:)

[Palerider]

I have a question.....since you have started a few threads about things you don't understand or conflicting....what do you like about the Gospel???

[Guest HEthePrimate]

Example 1) Coke debate.

Coke is not against the WoW. Period. It won't keep you from getting a temple recommend, and I know Church leaders who drink it. Don't worry about it.

Example 2) I know we are all judgemental to a degree. However, I don't expect filthy looks from people who look at me like a piece of dirt when I dress in something that THEY don't approve of. Im talking maybe an inch more cleavage or leg that what they would deem appropriate.

Modest dress is a Church teaching, but there are no hard-and-fast rules (that I know of) about what, exactly, constitutes "modesty." Use your own judgment. If a guy can't keep his "wing-ding" under control because your hem is barely above the knee, that's his problem!

Example 3) Some of the doctrine given by authorities in the past-birth control for example-has now been retracted. But I thought the gospel was the same yesterday today and forever? Surely the doctrine is the same?

There's a difference between doctrine and policy. The contraception thing was a policy, and not written in stone. Don't worry about it. I'm pretty sure the majority of LDS couples use birth control unless they're trying to have a baby.

Example 4) The devil. Im not sure if Im comfortable believeing non-church thoughts are the devil. How can he influence us anyway? I thought the spirit could only tell us stuff?

What are "non-Church thoughts?" Some people I know would say that voting for Obama goes against Church teachings, but I voted for him and nobody called me in for a disciplinary council! Personally, I think what a lot of people attribute to "the Devil" is simply their trying to avoid personal responsibility. They do something wrong, or say something deceitful, and they attribute it to the Devil. The Devil cannot make you do anything you don't want to do, and if you do something, there's a good chance you wanted to do it, anyway. His greatest tool is deceit, so study things out in your heart and your mind, see if they make sense, pray about it, and then make your decision.

Peace.

HEP

[Guest Alana]

About the non-church thought comment... I was under the understanding that Satan can bring images into your mind. Any comment on this from anyone?

And as has already been said, about caffeine... Mtn Dew is the officially missionary drink over here, and that's just fine. I think some people view caffeine as a addictive drug and thus avoid it at all cost. If some people want to treat things they have chosen for themselves as something you should do or not do, that is up to them. Like I would tell my siblings growing up "You can tell me what to do, but I don't have to listen."

[Faded]

Maybe the question I am asking is, how do I deal with these things? They do affect me and I get wound up and annoyed and it makes me think how can I belong to this organisation? How can I overcome this?

You should begin where everyone begins. The Foundation.

Do you believe in God? Do you believe in Jesus Christ? Is God part of your life and can you feel his infinite love for you right now? Do you know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God? Do you read from the Scriptures daily? Do pray to God everyday? Do you feel the Spirit answering those prayers? Do you know that the Bible and Book of Mormon are God's word?

Most of this list of concerns seems to come down to this: You seem to be struggling with the Social Organization of the Church, and the imperfections of other people. The best way to overcome this problem is to see the imperfect members of the Church as God sees them, and to understand that they will continue to be imperfect. So will you and me and everyone. The Church is an organization with a perfect leader (Christ), filled with imperfect people. Only God can help you get beyond the bad feelings you are having because of the imperfections of the people in the Church.

[Madriglace]

How to handle these specific questions? There have been so many good answers here for you to gain from ... but as to how to handle it ... a little while back I was really struggling with a problem and it took many months but finally I got my answer .... "Let it go". I would say the same to you. You have the answers, let it go and move on. We grow line upon line, precept upon precept ... you cannot sit still ... if you stop you go backward. Let it go .... move on to the light.

[Islander]

The Gospel requires us to do certain things that are totally counter intuitive according to the "wisdom" of the world.

Many times you will not understand a principle until you live by it. Theorizing, theologizing or any other kind of philosophical exercise will not get you any closer to understanding doctrine and the mind of God. And, of course, difficult as it may be to accept, your own opinions are not very relevant when it comes to the things of God.