Conflicting Doctrine

[Soul_Searcher]

Wow there are some excellent responses here. I really have got a lot to think about.

Islander-I think u are right I am a bit of a rebel! However, when I said someone commented on my dress I was genuinely shocked. To me, It was suitable for church. Now, I wont spend my life trying to please others so I will take the advice here and ignore these people.

Palerider-What I like about the church. Its familiar, its a comfort in some ways, it gives a focus to peoples lives. Its a community. However, those things can sometimes be negatives too. Although that applies to much of life.

What I meant by 'non-church' thoughts are that if I think something against what the church teaches-such as, I want another piercing-that must be 'Satan'. Why cant it just be me?? I feel it kind of takes away who I am as a person blaming stuff like that on Satan when really its me. It might be different to the churches view, but that doesn't mean it is bad. Does that make sense?

Faded, u are spot on. I really should write these down. I do believe in God and Jesus, but I'm not sure, like most people in the world. I hope its true and they are more likely to exist than not in my opinion. (I love the world and nature and don't see how it was an accident). I BELIEVE. I don't know if I feel that God loves me or not. I never think about it. The honest truth is that I don't really care whether he does or not-That sounds a bit harsher than I meant it to. What I mean is, I don't feel I need to feel that way. I do pray, but I'm kind of doing it as an experiment at the moment so I don't feel much from it.

However, great responses guys. I'm really going to ponder all this during the weekend and church tomorrow. Thanks so much!!!!

[jadams_4040]

OK So here are some of the problems holding me back in church:

Conflicting teachings. I understand people have different viewpoints on certain issues. However, when they start trying to tell you thats doctrinal fact things get a little sticky.

Example 1) Coke debate. My MIL wont even have it in the house, she is borderline obsessed about it. To my parents on the other hand, its a staple of their diet. Some people in my ward see it on a par with alcohol for heavens sake! This is ridiculous to me and I feel angry and annoyed at getting judged for what I DRINK!

Example 2) I know we are all judgemental to a degree. However, I don't expect filthy looks from people who look at me like a piece of dirt when I dress in something that THEY don't approve of. Im talking maybe an inch more cleavage or leg that what they would deem appropriate.

Example 3) Some of the doctrine given by authorities in the past-birth control for example-has now been retracted. But I thought the gospel was the same yesterday today and forever? Surely the doctrine is the same? Ive looked into this a LOT and where some have said you will basically burn in hell for using contraception, others then say, Oh its upto you. How can it possibly change so drastically??

Example 4) The devil. Im not sure if Im comfortable believeing non-church thoughts are the devil. How can he influence us anyway?I thought the spirit could only tell us stuff?

These confuse me and hold me back. There's plenty more but I think thats enough to be getting on with for now!!

You will find that when you go forward with faith, all these things will be made manifest unto you in due time as you need; It "does" work that ay. it is true heavenly father will give you answers to everything yu ask, but first he wants you to be sincere and have faith in him; and as the answers to your questions become known unto you; there will be no doubt as to the obvious truths and sureity of those answers. Try it! it "WILL" be worth it!.:)

[Justice]

I agree with Islander. To truly understand principle you must live it. The understanding comes in many ways, but the peace that teaches truth comes through obedience.

[FlaviusHambonius]

Wow there are some excellent responses here. I really have got a lot to think about.

Islander-I think u are right I am a bit of a rebel! However, when I said someone commented on my dress I was genuinely shocked. To me, It was suitable for church. Now, I wont spend my life trying to please others so I will take the advice here and ignore these people.

Palerider-What I like about the church. Its familiar, its a comfort in some ways, it gives a focus to peoples lives. Its a community. However, those things can sometimes be negatives too. Although that applies to much of life.

What I meant by 'non-church' thoughts are that if I think something against what the church teaches-such as, I want another piercing-that must be 'Satan'. Why cant it just be me?? I feel it kind of takes away who I am as a person blaming stuff like that on Satan when really its me. It might be different to the churches view, but that doesn't mean it is bad. Does that make sense?

Faded, u are spot on. I really should write these down. I do believe in God and Jesus, but I'm not sure, like most people in the world. I hope its true and they are more likely to exist than not in my opinion. (I love the world and nature and don't see how it was an accident). I BELIEVE. I don't know if I feel that God loves me or not. I never think about it. The honest truth is that I don't really care whether he does or not-That sounds a bit harsher than I meant it to. What I mean is, I don't feel I need to feel that way. I do pray, but I'm kind of doing it as an experiment at the moment so I don't feel much from it.

However, great responses guys. I'm really going to ponder all this during the weekend and church tomorrow. Thanks so much!!!!

SoulSearcher,

I would like to ask a favor of you when you go to church this weekend, but more specifically when you are in Sacrament meeting.

I would ask that you ponder deeply and sincerly the 'Passion'. I would ask that you visualize the Saviour in the 'Garden of Gethsemene' pleading to his Father and your Father as he was taking all sin, all hurts, all injustices, all sorrows, all heartbrokeness,

all pain total and complete--drinking from the bitter cups and enduring to the end.

Why? Because of his love for his Father and to fulfill his will.

Picture in your mind the incomprehensible suffering that caused the Lord to bleed great droplets of blood even to make his garments appear as crimson.

Then comes the arrest--the beating along the way-- the imprisonment in a dungeon hanging from his wrists all night. Then the appearence before Herod and Pilate.

Then comes the flogging with metalic and bone bits emmbedded into leather tassles ripping

and tearing into the skin and muscle of the Saviour.

Then having a briar thornbush embedded into his skull and having to endure carrying the crossbeam through the streets while being mocked and spat upon.

Then upon entering the place of Golgotha--the Saviour partook of the second bitter cup,

having spikes driven through his wrists, hands and feet and having the beam slammed into the ground causing more rips and tears into the Lords sinews.

Then the Lord had to often push up from his feet for relief from suffocation.

Why did the Saviour have to endure all of the mental, spiritual and physical anguish?

Because of the Fathers love for all of his children. The Father provided the perfect sacrafice--his precious son.

His love for us is as incomprehensible as his only begotten in the flesh pains and suffering were during the atonement.

I hope you will always know for a surety, that the Father and the Saviour love you dearly.

I am a weak man, but I always have hope in him that was sent.

God Bless

[Guest HEthePrimate]

What I meant by 'non-church' thoughts are that if I think something against what the church teaches-such as, I want another piercing-that must be 'Satan'. Why cant it just be me?? I feel it kind of takes away who I am as a person blaming stuff like that on Satan when really its me. It might be different to the churches view, but that doesn't mean it is bad. Does that make sense?

Frankly, I don't think God (or Satan, for that matter!) gives a hoot about how many piercings you have. If the Church preaches against multiple piercings, it's because its leaders are concerned about the type of image we present to the non-LDS world--or just because they find them unattractive. The Church leaders want us to appear "respectable" and dress and behave in such a way as not to offend anybody. Of course, it's impossible not to offend anybody, but that doesn't stop people from trying!

Peace,

HEP

[Soul_Searcher]

SoulSearcher,

I would like to ask a favor of you when you go to church this weekend, but more specifically when you are in Sacrament meeting.

I would ask that you ponder deeply and sincerly the 'Passion'. I would ask that you visualize the Saviour in the 'Garden of Gethsemene' pleading to his Father and your Father as he was taking all sin, all hurts, all injustices, all sorrows, all heartbrokeness,

all pain total and complete--drinking from the bitter cups and enduring to the end.

Why? Because of his love for his Father and to fulfill his will.

Picture in your mind the incomprehensible suffering that caused the Lord to bleed great droplets of blood even to make his garments appear as crimson.

Then comes the arrest--the beating along the way-- the imprisonment in a dungeon hanging from his wrists all night. Then the appearence before Herod and Pilate.

Then comes the flogging with metalic and bone bits emmbedded into leather tassles ripping

and tearing into the skin and muscle of the Saviour.

Then having a briar thornbush embedded into his skull and having to endure carrying the crossbeam through the streets while being mocked and spat upon.

Then upon entering the place of Golgotha--the Saviour partook of the second bitter cup,

having spikes driven through his wrists, hands and feet and having the beam slammed into the ground causing more rips and tears into the Lords sinews.

Then the Lord had to often push up from his feet for relief from suffocation.

Why did the Saviour have to endure all of the mental, spiritual and physical anguish?

Because of the Fathers love for all of his children. The Father provided the perfect sacrafice--his precious son.

His love for us is as incomprehensible as his only begotten in the flesh pains and suffering were during the atonement.

I hope you will always know for a surety, that the Father and the Saviour love you dearly.

I am a weak man, but I always have hope in him that was sent.

God Bless

I had kind of planned to do this but not in so much detail lol. Like I was gonna think about stuff tomorrow during church. We'll see how it goes.

HEthe Primate-I absolutely agree that God doesn't care how many piercings I have!!! If the Lord looketh on the heart then image isn't important. The church puts way too much emphasis on appearance I reckon.

[john doe]

I'm willing to bet there were a few people who didn't much care for portions of The Law of Moses too. That doesn't mean it didn't come from God. Sometimes we are asked to do seemingly small things to show our commitment to God. And sometimes those small things we are asked to do become our largest stumbling blocks in the gospel.

[dnc76v22]

Frankly, I don't think God (or Satan, for that matter!) gives a hoot about how many piercings you have.

You may want to read 2 Nephi 13:16-24 before you make that conclusion. :)

[TruthSeekerToo]

I'm willing to bet there were a few people who didn't much care for portions of The Law of Moses too. That doesn't mean it didn't come from God. Sometimes we are asked to do seemingly small things to show our commitment to God. And sometimes those small things we are asked to do become our largest stumbling blocks in the gospel.

But some of the minutia details of the LoM really didn't come from God. Or at least the stringent ways they were sometimes interpreted. Didn't Jesus prove that? People can take things too far.

[Islander]

But some of the minutia details of the LoM really didn't come from God. Or at least the stringent ways they were sometimes interpreted. Didn't Jesus prove that? People can take things too far.

True in a sense. The Rabbinic "minutia" came about precisely because some people do not guide their lives by principles or believe the prophets but require "specific" instructions. So, the law says "Thou shall not say the name of God in vain" and some asked "...well, when is it in vain and when is not?". So the Rabbi said: "Then thou shall never say the name of God."

People argue with Moses about everything so he had to codify the law in painstaking detail.

[TruthSeekerToo]

True in a sense. The Rabbinic "minutia" came about precisely because some people do not guide their lives by principles or believe the prophets but require "specific" instructions. So, the law says "Thou shall not say the name of God in vain" and some asked "...well, when is it in vain and when is not?". So the Rabbi said: "Then thou shall never say the name of God."

People argue with Moses about everything so he had to codify the law in painstaking detail.

It is so easy for me to see that we are the House of Isreal. We are really not so different, are we?

[Islander]

It is so easy for me to see that we are the House of Isreal. We are really not so different, are we?

Amen!! :)

[Madriglace]

I absolutely agree that God doesn't care how many piercings I have!!! If the Lord looketh on the heart then image isn't important. The church puts way too much emphasis on appearance I reckon.

It's not so much a matter of image but of obedience. Line upon line precept upon precept. Like I tell my SS kids ... choose your battles ... piercings is an easy thing to decide on ... so decide and put it away. I have multiple holes in each ear from before the counsel from the GA. No big deal ... one pair of earrings is enough ... if they said no earrings I would cry but becuase I know who Thomas S Monson is it would be no problem .. I made the decision and let it go. We learn to crawl, then to walk, then to run all leading up to being able to FLY! It's a matter of if you can't be obedient on this then you need to work on the lesser stuff and grow to be able to do this. The important thing is to grow.

[Pintail]

Well for one, example one is not "doctrine" so the only thing it conflicts with is your family/friends opinion on it. I believe the whole "Coke is bad" thing originated from the "Stick of Bruce" and there have been a couple other church leaders who have commented on it both negatively and positively. To this day there is no church doctrine or policy on the matter. If I'm wrong someone please tell me.

Oddly enough the only Mormon's I've seem to have met which hold that feeling about soda are Utah Mormon. A generalization I know, but that has always been the case for me anyways. Maybe it's something in the water up their in the mountains. Who knows, there is caffeine in chocolate as well. So maybe you should feel guilty about eating a candy bar also.

When it comes to the intricacies of doctrines like the WOW it has been my experience that we are generally asked to decide what we think is best for our relationship with God. Everything should be in moderation to a certain degree. If you have a problem with soda(caffeine) and are somewhat addicted to it, as in you rely on the soda and receive the shakes or headaches if you do not have any then maybe you should look at your consumption of it.

That's my 2 cents...

[prospectmom]

Work on what you believe.... do not make your questions or frustrations become a stumbling block... and I love Coke... We all are in different stages...... You will be fine doing the best you can don't try to change or take on more than you are ready for..... and always pray about it because ultimatly it is between you and HIM..... :} Peace

[ashleybstarr]

The Gospel = God exists, Christ is His Son, and died for you on the cross so you can go back to heaven. That's what the Gospel is. Everything else is details.

THATS AWESOME!

Ive been with the Protestant/Baptist church for years and we are told some uninformed things about LDS. Thats statement there just shows that a Christian is one who believes in Christ and a Christian is a Christian is a Christian.

To me all the rest has been details in Baptist/LDS/JW I don't agree with 100% of any of them, I'm just looking for one that sits the best with me. #1 if they follow Christ then thats all I ask.

As for Coke I have wondered the same thing about Chocolate. It usually has a lot of caffeine in it. I know pop in general is not good for you ( I LOVE diet coke myself)

In all Christ centered religions there is debate and one Ward may be different then the next as one Church is.

I am learning about LDS and I would agree ( from what I know so far) that if you can hear God then God speaks to you and will put on your conscious what he will.

[Misshalfway]

Hi Soul_searcher. I haven't posted for a while but I thought I would comment on this thread. Hopefully I won't duplicate what has already been said.

I first wanted to address the idea of thoughts entering our minds and the idea of "blaming Satan".

I am assuming that because you are a member of the church you understand that all of us are both spirit beings and beings of flesh. Our flesh wants a lot of things that might not be Godly and it is part of our job while we are here on earth to learn to master the passions or unrighteous desires of the flesh. The desires of a person says a lot about what kind of person they are. When we want the best things....the things of the Spirit....that is a good indicator or which direction we are headed.

We are also enticed by two forces; The Holy Spirit and Satan and his angels. The Spirit works on us by trying to help us know truth and leads us to follow the truth. Satan works the opposite way. Sometimes we get thoughts or feelings or temptations or enticing that enters our mind. And of course it is our challenge to choose wisely.

I think that one of the ideas of this gospel that I love the most is the idea of personal responsibility. In the end, we really can't blame Satan (or God for that matter) for the choices we make. We aren't responsible necessarily for our tempations, but we are responsible for what we think and how we behave and the truth that has been given to us by God. So, while some want to blame Satan for their 11th peircing, I would say that such a huge cop out.

Keep in mind too, that there are things offered to us in this world that don't carry much weight either way in terms of righteousness or wickedness. But understand that Satan wins if he keeps us from the blessings of the Lord whether he succeeds with getting us to partake of the grossest of sins or just by wasting our time and talents with things that don't matter and that don't satisfy.

I heard once that "he who dies with the most joy wins." In this case, I happen to believe this whole heartedly. There is much in the way of mediocre choices that gives us momentary satisfaction, but that may distract us from real God given joy. I am afraid there will be a lot of humans in the end with piles and piles of momentary happiness.....like a big sack of Mcdonald's toys that they just had to have and that mean nothing in the end.

I wanted also to address the diet coke thing. The spirit and meaning of the Word of Wisdom is the real issue here. I think it might help if you were to obtain the vision behind this health code. A code, I might argue, isn't exactly gospel doctrine but is strict guidelines to teach us more about how to master the flesh and to keep ourselves in the best possible state to receive the Spirit of the Lord and other blessings too. Whether or not a person drinks coke really isn't the issue. Some have decided for themselves not to. Some have been invited by leaders to live a higher way even if it isn't the very least the law requires. I, for one, have had personal spiritual experiences where I felt very sure that if I gave up my coke drinking that the Spirit would come more profoundly into my life. It was an added invitation of sacrifice to help me receive a higher blessing. You see? It really isn't about the coke. It's about me and Father in Heaven and the kind of disciplined being he wants me to become.

And I think there is value in the guidelines of the church for how we dress. Again, eternal vision might help you understand why someone might not want to see too far down ones shirt.

Thanks for letting me share. Hope there is something of value there for you. Best wishes in your effectual strugglings.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Hemidakota]

OK So here are some of the problems holding me back in church:

Conflicting teachings. I understand people have different viewpoints on certain issues. However, when they start trying to tell you thats doctrinal fact things get a little sticky.

Example 1) Coke debate. My MIL wont even have it in the house, she is borderline obsessed about it. To my parents on the other hand, its a staple of their diet. Some people in my ward see it on a par with alcohol for heavens sake! This is ridiculous to me and I feel angry and annoyed at getting judged for what I DRINK!

Example 2) I know we are all judgemental to a degree. However, I don't expect filthy looks from people who look at me like a piece of dirt when I dress in something that THEY don't approve of. Im talking maybe an inch more cleavage or leg that what they would deem appropriate.

Example 3) Some of the doctrine given by authorities in the past-birth control for example-has now been retracted. But I thought the gospel was the same yesterday today and forever? Surely the doctrine is the same? Ive looked into this a LOT and where some have said you will basically burn in hell for using contraception, others then say, Oh its upto you. How can it possibly change so drastically??

Example 4) The devil. Im not sure if Im comfortable believeing non-church thoughts are the devil. How can he influence us anyway?I thought the spirit could only tell us stuff?

These confuse me and hold me back. There's plenty more but I think thats enough to be getting on with for now!!

Have you taken to this matter to GOD for an explanation?

[Soul_Searcher]

Im only just getting back into praying-Ive got a lot to work through

[Hemidakota]

I apologized then....to keep short and too the point -

1] Coke or soda is not against the WoW and is still considered ok as long it is not addicted. I still drink soda when I take the kids to the movies or eat pizza/popcorn. I would point in the direction of those who reside on the council of twelve who also have a soda occasionally.

2] I refer this question to another thread [Dress modesty issues] where someone has already linked a talk concerning appropriate dress code. http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/20696-prom-dresses-tuxedos-sacrament-meeting-2.html

3] This is left up to the couple to make the choice now. This is where you will need to draw close to the Spirit in obtaining an answer based on your decision.

4]. Personally knowing Lucifer, he and his cronies can still place thoughts in your mind. It is up to you to act on them or not. However, that will change in the Terrestrial state.

[Elgama]

Im only just getting back into praying-Ive got a lot to work through

recommend a book Learn to Pray by Marcus Braybrooke its amazing

-Charley

[Palerider]

recommend a book Learn to Pray by Marcus Braybrooke its amazing

-Charley

If you can find the book titled....Drawing on the Powers of Heaven by Grant Von Harrison....thats a great book to....if you can find it...

[Connie]

If you can find the book titled....Drawing on the Powers of Heaven by Grant Von Harrison....thats a great book to....if you can find it...

Oooo, i have that book and now i think i'll read it, but only because a guy on a horse said it was a great book... i get pretty weak in the knees when it comes to guys on horseback.

Another good one is Do Your Prayers Bounce Off the Ceiling? by Grant A. Worth. It's a hard one to find as well, though.