Need advice, may leave church

[Guest Apostate]

There is a big difference here, the Bible does not attempt to sugercoat or lie about things that happen in the past. Even drastic things God does are presented in the open, like when people are killed in the OT or prophets disobey God.

A few example of things I take issue with: Emma Smith poisoned Joseph Smith's coffee, and Joseph Smith's brother Samuel died mysteriously of poison. (Some attempted to frame Brigham Young) Brigham Young in the JoD said that Emma Smith was insane and had lost her mind and was an apostate. Yet today she is called "the elect lady" with pictures of her hanging in relief society rooms and movies made. She is viewed as a heroine that young women can pattern their lives after. Which is it?

In fact, the Relief Society was disbanded by the church for a 20 year period when Emma began teaching anti-polygamy doctrine, and was reinstated later in SLC by Brigham. According to Sherry Dew, it was disbanded because of mob persecution.

OD-1 now appears in the D&C as a revelation that was mandatory for the church to follow forbidding plural marriage, issued by God's prophet Wilford Woodruff. Yet, 6,000 plural marriages were performed between 1890 and 1910, long after the alleged revelation, some of which were performed by Woodruff personally or were Woodruff taking on additional wives. It wasn't until the Senate hearing that the second manifesto was issued in 1910 making monogamy mandatory for Latter-day Saints, but was left out of the D&C. This was discussed recently by pro-Mormon apologists on MADB just a week ago.

Joseph Smith committed numerous crimes during the course of his leadership in the church, some of which include the Kirtland Banking Scandal, secret polygamy, and the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor printing press (which led to his death). The priesthood manual and church history literature (Our Heritage, etc.) leaves out the reasons whenever Joseph Smith is imprisoned or even the reason he was killed. I agree that what happened to him was a travesty, but to say that he had no part in bringing the persecution on himself is simply not true, and the historical record confirms it.

I have also found out things recently like when the Book of Mormon in Alma 40 quotes the Westminster Confession and the Book of Abraham translation issues. I have some temple-related issues that I can't mention here but it bothers me.

Honestly, it just broke my heart when I learned these things. I've been a very staunch defender of the church, you can even see that in my past threads on here and MADB, but lately the more I learn about it is the less I find I am able to defend it. I would like to have an answer to these things. I honestly want to believe that the church is true. Even the Bible is more honest than this when talking about the disobedience of prophets and problems with God's people.

I'm scheduled to meet with the bishop tomorrow night and I am going to tell him about all of my doubts in addition to the problems with the EQ President and tell him that I would just like a break from everything, at least from 3rd hour. I would also like to know if there is an answer to some of these things. I pray I can stay in the church and I also pray that the church will be more honest in the future.

bjw...Others may weep and wail and beg you to rethink and stay...I on the other hand upon reading this bit of codswallop have no problem seeing you for what you are...a complete and total fraud.

I'm at a loss as to what motivates folks like you, truly and sincerely at a loss. So I'll just await the firestorm of indignation that I'm sure will come from you...ending with your I'm hasta thanks to a jerk like Apostate post....

[the Ogre]

Dude, you need to stop reading the anti stuff. It was designed to confuse and obfuscate and stretch (and sometimes just lie about) the truth. Ignore it. None of it is intended to uplift or edify, only destroy and ridicule. Next, ignore the apologists too, they might be trying to explain and defend the church, but most of the time they are merely showing off their recent Ph.Ds and enjoying the proceeds from their book sales.

There is a big difference here, the Bible does not attempt to sugercoat or lie about things that happen in the past. Even drastic things God does are presented in the open, like when people are killed in the OT or prophets disobey God.

A few example of things I take issue with: Emma Smith poisoned Joseph Smith's coffee, and Joseph Smith's brother Samuel died mysteriously of poison. (Some attempted to frame Brigham Young) Brigham Young in the JoD said that Emma Smith was insane and had lost her mind and was an apostate. Yet today she is called "the elect lady" with pictures of her hanging in relief society rooms and movies made. She is viewed as a heroine that young women can pattern their lives after. Which is it?

In fact, the Relief Society was disbanded by the church for a 20 year period when Emma began teaching anti-polygamy doctrine, and was reinstated later in SLC by Brigham. According to Sherry Dew, it was disbanded because of mob persecution.

OD-1 now appears in the D&C as a revelation that was mandatory for the church to follow forbidding plural marriage, issued by God's prophet Wilford Woodruff. Yet, 6,000 plural marriages were performed between 1890 and 1910, long after the alleged revelation, some of which were performed by Woodruff personally or were Woodruff taking on additional wives. It wasn't until the Senate hearing that the second manifesto was issued in 1910 making monogamy mandatory for Latter-day Saints, but was left out of the D&C. This was discussed recently by pro-Mormon apologists on MADB just a week ago.

Joseph Smith committed numerous crimes during the course of his leadership in the church, some of which include the Kirtland Banking Scandal, secret polygamy, and the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor printing press (which led to his death). The priesthood manual and church history literature (Our Heritage, etc.) leaves out the reasons whenever Joseph Smith is imprisoned or even the reason he was killed. I agree that what happened to him was a travesty, but to say that he had no part in bringing the persecution on himself is simply not true, and the historical record confirms it.

I have also found out things recently like when the Book of Mormon in Alma 40 quotes the Westminster Confession and the Book of Abraham translation issues. I have some temple-related issues that I can't mention here but it bothers me.

Honestly, it just broke my heart when I learned these things. I've been a very staunch defender of the church, you can even see that in my past threads on here and MADB, but lately the more I learn about it is the less I find I am able to defend it. I would like to have an answer to these things. I honestly want to believe that the church is true. Even the Bible is more honest than this when talking about the disobedience of prophets and problems with God's people.

I'm scheduled to meet with the bishop tomorrow night and I am going to tell him about all of my doubts in addition to the problems with the EQ President and tell him that I would just like a break from everything, at least from 3rd hour. I would also like to know if there is an answer to some of these things. I pray I can stay in the church and I also pray that the church will be more honest in the future.

[lilered]

Let me offer a different perspective. A few years ago I was teaching in Primary and one of the counselors could be very bossy and snippy at times. She simply said things in a way that offended people including me. Several times, I impulively wanted to quit because of something she did or said. However, each time, I sucked it up (bit my tongue), prayed for her and I and continued on. After about a year, I purchased a small booklet for each of the Primary Presidency, wrote in it, and presented it to them as a gift of my gratitude for their leadership. Another year went by and I was called to another calling. I was asked to speak in Sacrement meeting. Afterwards, this very person that I had often disagreed with and resented at times, came up to me, threw her arms around me and wispered to me how much she had appreciated the book gift, how much she respected and admired me, how much she missed me in Primary, and how much my Sacrement Talk had moved her. Her husband and children were standing there and offered their comments as well.

Moral of the Story: Sometimes we misunderstand peoples motives/methods, personality, and heart. Sometimes it is better to continue on, in spite of othere people.

[Kenny]

Thanks but it was not me reading anti stuff

[mlbrowninwa]

I cannot speak about problems within the LDS church, but can speak of them inside other churches. No person inside this church or any church is perfect and believe me these types of things happens in all churches. Looking back throughout history we find many examples of church leaders of all denominations that have done questionable things or had ideas we may not agree with. However as others have said, it is Jesus we follow. He is the only one who is perfect.

[the Ogre]

Thanks but it was not me reading anti stuff

Kenny, I apologize if I was implying you were. I was addressing BJW.

Sorry.

[Azriel]

33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.

34 They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God.

35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;

36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.

40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.

43 And I now give unto you a commandment to beware concerning yourselves, to give diligent heed to the words of eternal life.

44 For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.

[Kenny]

My point exactly

[Italics]

I've had another situation come up at my ward, and the church in general, and wanted some advice. You guys really helped out last time. It seems that I'm having more problems at my ward with the EQ President and the church.

On Saturday I went to take the CSET Mathematics exam, its very hard and only has a 20% pass rate, and I had so much riding on passing it this time, since I had already paid a non-refundable $500 fee to take night classes starting in June while I intern as a high-school math teacher. Its going to really cost me since my salary would have tripled had I passed the exam, and I'm having a lot of financial trouble. Well, the EQ President called me right when I got back from the exam, and I know I failed it, and I was almost in tears while we talked. He asked me what was wrong and I explained to him the situation. He came across as being very insensitive and told me he wanted me to teach a lesson in Elder's Quorum the next day. I told him he reached me at a bad time and that I was having a lot of doubts about the church right now and needed to get things right in my life. He was persistent and said I was to do it anyway. I told him to find a substitute, maybe tell whoever was to do it next week and I would trade with him. He very rudely told me that it was my responsibility to find me a replacement, not his, and that I should get the ward directory and start calling people. I just said fine and hung up.

I was so angry after all the problems I've had with this guy already that I didn't even bother going to church today. 5 minutes before priesthood was to start I saw on my caller ID that he was calling me. I didn't even bother answering. I'm still very upset right now, and have been having a lot of doubts about the church as it is. I just found out a lot of things that have been causing me to have doubts about the truthfulness of this church, and this has been making me wonder if it wouldn't be better to just stay home. I can always read the Bible with my grandmother at home and worship Him on my own terms without mean people taking jabs at me all the time.

Even if this church turns its back on me, I know Jesus Christ will never turn his back on me. Even if the bad things I've been hearing about Joseph Smith or the early church are true, it still doesn't change Christ's love for me and I know no matter where I am I will still have Him.

I'm wondering, what will they probably do since I didn't show up to teach the EQ lesson? I am definitely going to ask to be released from all callings and excused from 3rd hour, but I'm not sure if they will try some sort of formal disciplinary proceedings or take my temple recommend.

The way the EQ President and the bishop have treated me and my grandmother, especially after the bishop yelled at my grandmother on the phone, I know these local leaders definitely do not emulate Jesus Christ. I know God will not hold it against me if they decide to ask me to leave the church. Right now I'm taking time off from it to do some soul searching, and to do more research on the church. I'm going to spend some time in prayer as well. I thought about quitting on my own, but I don't want to do anything in haste that I might regret later. I really want the church to be true, and I wish I could get along better with the people in my ward, but nothing I try seems to work. So, any advice you guys might have I would really appreciate it.

You should leave the church if you have no testimony, not if you don't like the members in your ward.

Not liking the people of your ward should not affect your testimony.

Use being unique as a reason to take pride in being a member.

I have long hair, listen to metal music, drink energy drinks, and hate attending church activities outside of actual church itself.

Do people misjudge me sometimes? ALL THE TIME!

Do I get a hard time for it sometimes. OF COURSE!

Well guess what, I still have a very strong testimony and hold a temple recommend. Why should I let it bother me? I take pride in being different. I don't do it on purpose... I don't do it to "rebel." I just am who I am.

If people don't like you for that, screw it.

I can guarantee you one thing, not attending church will NOT make you happier.

[bjw]

bjw...Others may weep and wail and beg you to rethink and stay...I on the other hand upon reading this bit of codswallop have no problem seeing you for what you are...a complete and total fraud.

I'm at a loss as to what motivates folks like you, truly and sincerely at a loss. So I'll just await the firestorm of indignation that I'm sure will come from you...ending with your I'm hasta thanks to a jerk like Apostate post....

I think that my past posts reveal my true intentions. If what you were saying is true I would not have bothered meeting with some posters in person that I have met online over the past several years, spent hundreds of dollars taking a vacation to Salt Lake City to see general conference in person, and even broke off ties with some close family members who completely turned their backs on me when I joined this church. Many people on here and MADB know my story and some even know me personally, so I'm sorry but what you are saying is simply not the case. I have been telling the truth with every post.

[bjw]

Dude, you need to stop reading the anti stuff. It was designed to confuse and obfuscate and stretch (and sometimes just lie about) the truth. Ignore it. None of it is intended to uplift or edify, only destroy and ridicule. Next, ignore the apologists too, they might be trying to explain and defend the church, but most of the time they are merely showing off their recent Ph.Ds and enjoying the proceeds from their book sales.

Ogre,

Nothing I said on here came from anti stuff, I learned it all from pro-Mormon sources, mostly the Journal of Discources, fairwiki, MADB, official publications, and some books published by church owned publishers.

Most anti stuff I do not even bother with it because a lot of it lies so much you can never know when they are telling the truth.

[bjw]

I just want to thank everyone that has given me good advice and been praying for me. I am meeting with my bishop tonight and I will let you guys know how it goes. Thanks.

[Kenny]

You should leave the church if you have no testimony, not if you don't like the members in your ward.

Not liking the people of your ward should not affect your testimony.

Use being unique as a reason to take pride in being a member.

I have long hair, listen to metal music, drink energy drinks, and hate attending church activities outside of actual church itself.

Do people misjudge me sometimes? ALL THE TIME!

Do I get a hard time for it sometimes. OF COURSE!

Well guess what, I still have a very strong testimony and hold a temple recommend. Why should I let it bother me? I take pride in being different. I don't do it on purpose... I don't do it to "rebel." I just am who I am.

If people don't like you for that, screw it.

I can guarantee you one thing, not attending church will NOT make you happier.

If you have not already done so can I recommend some books to read that helped me and might do the same for you.

The first is the 'Trial of the Stick of Joseph', and the others are the 'Work and Glory' series, in particular volume 7.

The first will take no more than an hour to read and why I recommend it first the others considerable longer.

All available from Deseret book stores

[Italics]

If you have not already done so can I recommend some books to read that helped me and might do the same for you.

The first is the 'Trial of the Stick of Joseph', and the others are the 'Work and Glory' series, in particular volume 7.

The first will take no more than an hour to read and why I recommend it first the others considerable longer.

All available from Deseret book stores

Are you talking to me, or the person who started this thread?

If me... why do you recommend these books? Care to share why you think I'd be interested?

[FunkyTown]

bjw...others may weep and wail and beg you to rethink and stay...i on the other hand upon reading this bit of codswallop have no problem seeing you for what you are...a complete and total fraud.

I'm at a loss as to what motivates folks like you, truly and sincerely at a loss. So i'll just await the firestorm of indignation that i'm sure will come from you...ending with your i'm hasta thanks to a jerk like apostate post....

qft.

[Kenny]

This is starting to get confusing I thought I was replying to the guy who has problems with early leaders and thinking of leaving the church.

These recommended books helped me more than I could ever expect particularly the first. In fact after reading Trial of the Stick of Joseph where before I believed Joseph Smith was a prophet now I actually knew and it has remained that way. I also think the problem with a lot of member’s problems is not having a firm testimony on Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon. The recommended book puts the BOM on trial in a modern court of law. It was written by a mature LDS law student who as part of his studies needed to defend something, anything, in a real court setting with judge, jury, and prosecution. So he decided to use the Book of Mormon. Witnesses were proxies of the early leaders with substantiating evidence from the scriptures. There is a children’s version and an adult one both easily read in one day.

If you don’t know the history of the church well enough Gerald Lund’s Work and the Glory series tells it as it was. His style has you right amongst the main characters as if you were actually there. Volume 7 in particular deals with polygamy in a way that helped me understand why this was introduced into the church only to be the very thing that almost bankrupt it when the US government were about to seize all assets if the practise continued.

[pam]

We also need to remember that The Work and the Glory is a considered a fictional series based on actual facts. We don't want to confuse or take everything written in the series as totally fact based.

Good series..but don't base your entire search for Church History on this series.

Edited May 20, 2009 by pam

[Just_A_Guy]

I have long hair . . .

Being a male, and (by your own statements) a student at BYU-Idaho--how is that even possible?

[Italics]

Being a male, and (by your own statements) a student at BYU-Idaho--how is that even possible?

My hair was longer before I came to BYU-I (and obviously before I served a mission). It is certainly shorter now than it was before, but still long by BYU-I standards.

[Kenny]

Yes I concur with that It was more a personal thing in that the style used help me engage with the real facts quicker than just reading the history. This is the skill of writing in this way. But as you have rightly cautioned fiction is just that made up and should not depend on it as fact.

[bjw]

Thanks Kenny, I look forward to checking those out.

As for the situation, I met with my bishop last night and he thinks I should go do a temple session. He also said he had no problems in releasing me from the callings and said I could be excused from 3rd hour because of my problems with the EQ President. He also told me that he understood why I didn't teach the lesson on Sunday so it wasn't a problem. We talked for about 20 minutes about feeling the Spirit in our church and it really made me feel better. He said that despite the history of the church, we still know the church is true by the feelings we have when we feel the Spirit, and people aren't perfect. He said he thought that Satan was using the shortcomings of these people to try to get me to lose my testimony.

Anyway, I'll keep you posted on how things are going. I'm going to do a temple session tonight.

[Crywithasmile87]

Thanks Kenny, I look forward to checking those out.

As for the situation, I met with my bishop last night and he thinks I should go do a temple session. He also said he had no problems in releasing me from the callings and said I could be excused from 3rd hour because of my problems with the EQ President. He also told me that he understood why I didn't teach the lesson on Sunday so it wasn't a problem. We talked for about 20 minutes about feeling the Spirit in our church and it really made me feel better. He said that despite the history of the church, we still know the church is true by the feelings we have when we feel the Spirit, and people aren't perfect. He said he thought that Satan was using the shortcomings of these people to try to get me to lose my testimony.

Anyway, I'll keep you posted on how things are going. I'm going to do a temple session tonight.

Sweet, hope things go well for you

[Jim108]

When I am tired or upset I know that I do not make good decisions. Let some time pass and then look back upon these events. Also, do what Jesus would do. Love and forgive. I do not think the church is the problem. We all need to love and forgive more, afterall, how can we ask for forgivness if we can not forgive. Good luck.

[MorningStar]

Who gave a talk not too long ago about sticking to the Gospel basics - the beautiful, simple things? History is interesting, but the most time needs to be devoted to living the gospel.

BJW, try looking at this as an opportunity to learn more about forgiveness. I have also had conflict with people at church and went through some wonderful experiences learning to love people I never thought I could.

You have trials. So does your EQ pres. You don't know what most of those trials are. I'm glad to hear you're going to the temple. Good plan. The Savior came to save all of us. We're all sinners. There's a good chance you will tick off plenty of people at church without intending to. Wouldn't you want them to keep attending despite your imperfections? :)

[YellowLight]

BJW, in my opinion one of the most important things you can do is to be honest with yourself. If you do that, you will be happy. The reason I say that is because if you really feel the church is true, then individual people and their poor decisions should not stray you away. The bishop is right in that people are not perfect anywhere you go. So, my advice, follow your heart and fully commit yourself to what you feel.