Need advice, may leave church

[bjw]

I've had another situation come up at my ward, and the church in general, and wanted some advice. You guys really helped out last time. It seems that I'm having more problems at my ward with the EQ President and the church.

On Saturday I went to take the CSET Mathematics exam, its very hard and only has a 20% pass rate, and I had so much riding on passing it this time, since I had already paid a non-refundable $500 fee to take night classes starting in June while I intern as a high-school math teacher. Its going to really cost me since my salary would have tripled had I passed the exam, and I'm having a lot of financial trouble. Well, the EQ President called me right when I got back from the exam, and I know I failed it, and I was almost in tears while we talked. He asked me what was wrong and I explained to him the situation. He came across as being very insensitive and told me he wanted me to teach a lesson in Elder's Quorum the next day. I told him he reached me at a bad time and that I was having a lot of doubts about the church right now and needed to get things right in my life. He was persistent and said I was to do it anyway. I told him to find a substitute, maybe tell whoever was to do it next week and I would trade with him. He very rudely told me that it was my responsibility to find me a replacement, not his, and that I should get the ward directory and start calling people. I just said fine and hung up.

I was so angry after all the problems I've had with this guy already that I didn't even bother going to church today. 5 minutes before priesthood was to start I saw on my caller ID that he was calling me. I didn't even bother answering. I'm still very upset right now, and have been having a lot of doubts about the church as it is. I just found out a lot of things that have been causing me to have doubts about the truthfulness of this church, and this has been making me wonder if it wouldn't be better to just stay home. I can always read the Bible with my grandmother at home and worship Him on my own terms without mean people taking jabs at me all the time.

Even if this church turns its back on me, I know Jesus Christ will never turn his back on me. Even if the bad things I've been hearing about Joseph Smith or the early church are true, it still doesn't change Christ's love for me and I know no matter where I am I will still have Him.

I'm wondering, what will they probably do since I didn't show up to teach the EQ lesson? I am definitely going to ask to be released from all callings and excused from 3rd hour, but I'm not sure if they will try some sort of formal disciplinary proceedings or take my temple recommend.

The way the EQ President and the bishop have treated me and my grandmother, especially after the bishop yelled at my grandmother on the phone, I know these local leaders definitely do not emulate Jesus Christ. I know God will not hold it against me if they decide to ask me to leave the church. Right now I'm taking time off from it to do some soul searching, and to do more research on the church. I'm going to spend some time in prayer as well. I thought about quitting on my own, but I don't want to do anything in haste that I might regret later. I really want the church to be true, and I wish I could get along better with the people in my ward, but nothing I try seems to work. So, any advice you guys might have I would really appreciate it.

[the Ogre]

If what you are saying is accurate, I'd say you have nothing to fear regarding your recommend or church standing.

Regarding the rest: I have always had trouble with people at church (most of the time, people in the Relief Society). Ignore them. I am sorry about the bishop yelling at your grandmother. That is unfortunate and pretty sad.

Be patient with your doubts and go straight to G-d about them and trust H-m that you will learn the truth. Taking rash action is the biggest problem, don't do anything without prayer.

Good luck with everything and sorry about that test. I know a few people who have failed it. They were very bummed as well.

[skippy740]

bjw,

I'm sensing a disconnect within your post and I hope you can help me understand.

First, I understand and would feel the same way you do if I got a phone call like that from my EQ president.

Here's your other thread on a related matter for others to reference when posting:

http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/20163-problems-ward-eq-situation.html

I don't understand why you think there would be any disciplinary proceeding or take your temple recommend when those things only occur with worthiness issues. Not teaching an EQ lesson doesn't count as a "worthiness" issue.

Please distinquish between the "Church" (the entire church) and your local "Ward/Branch" in your writing. There is a BIG difference and will help you clarify your situation even better in your own mind.

Forgetting the people in your ward/branch, what are you having doubts about?

BTW, there's a difference between "leaving" and just "taking a break". I would suggest that you just take a break from your ward/branch and attend another service within the stake. A change of people and scenery can make a world of difference.

I've done this many times myself. I've taken breaks while I try to just maintain my sanity. I treasure the gospel and I'll never LEAVE the Church. But sometimes, it just makes sense to let people know that you need a break - and you do that by not going for a while.

You can attend your ward for sacrament only, or another ward for sacrament only. But everything else, you just don't need the DRAMA right now.

[Soul_Searcher]

Taking a break from the ward is a good idea. I have had similar doubts about the church. Being in ward you are having difficulty with only magnifies and compounds these dounts. Attending a different ward for a while will help you to see things more clearly in the light of day. If things continue, have you considered bringing your concerns to a member of the high council or stake presidency? Or even changing wards?

[Gwen]

not sure how much i can help with most of your issues but let me put your mind at ease about not showing up for the lesson. if not showing up when you were asked to give a lesson or speak in sacrament meeting without telling anyone was serious enough for disciplinary action we'd have no one in our branch. we've been stood up to many times to count. one thing i've learned being in a branch is that every member is responsible for the class, to participate and possibly teach. on any given sunday we should be prepared enough before the class to teach on less than 5 min notice. especially if you were the pres of something.

all that being said, if i understand what you are saying correctly, you were not obligated to teach or to find a replacement. you never agreed to teach. as a leader you can't call and say "will you ...." and when they say no pass the responsibility on to them to take care of it. you said no, he was the one neglecting his responsibility, not you.

[pam]

There is a quote I just posted in another forum that seemed pretty applicable to me.

“We learn to endure to the end by learning to finish our current responsibilities, and we simply continue doing it all of our lives. We cannot expect to learn endurance in our later years if we have developed the habit of quitting when things get difficult now.”

Robert D. Hales, Ensign, May 1998, 75

[Misshalfway]

There will always be insensitive people. There will always be EQ Presidents who step on toes while they do their jobs or bishops who don't have a clue or VTers who fail in hundreds of different ways. And that person just might be you sometimes.

Look --- people are people and that means that all of us, you and me and everyone, will blow it at one time or another. This is all part of the earth life deal! The test is to see if we will rise above. That means we get to rub shoulders with all of these imperfect souls and we learn to forgive and to receive insensitivity or rudeness with patience and long suffering.

So when people say to ignore.....that isn't bad advise. But I think what really helps is to lift yourself to a more loving way. When one is filled with love, and I mean love for self and all men, being hurt or offended or disturbed just doesn't happen as easily.

So Dude, don't let others and their weakness change your course to Christ. If you have issues, you must do what the rest of us have to do. You gotta study and ponder and pray. You gotta exercise your faith and make sure your obedience is in line so that the promises of heavenly answers will come to you. If you are struggling with your faith, see it as an opportunity for growth. If the church isn't true, God will tell you.

The truthfulness of this church has never and will never be grounded in the perfectness of its members. The history is flawed. The people who participated in the restoration are flawed too. If you are looking for perfection, then you will be disappointed. You won't find it with the Israelites or with Moses. You won't even find it with Peter and the first group of 12. Don't be surprised when you don't find it in Palmyra.

[Guest Apostate]

I'm curious here, having read both of your posts concerning your EQP, are you interested in working something out amicably? or simply looking for an exit strategy??

[Hemidakota]

I've had another situation come up at my ward, and the church in general, and wanted some advice. You guys really helped out last time. It seems that I'm having more problems at my ward with the EQ President and the church.

On Saturday I went to take the CSET Mathematics exam, its very hard and only has a 20% pass rate, and I had so much riding on passing it this time, since I had already paid a non-refundable $500 fee to take night classes starting in June while I intern as a high-school math teacher. Its going to really cost me since my salary would have tripled had I passed the exam, and I'm having a lot of financial trouble. Well, the EQ President called me right when I got back from the exam, and I know I failed it, and I was almost in tears while we talked. He asked me what was wrong and I explained to him the situation. He came across as being very insensitive and told me he wanted me to teach a lesson in Elder's Quorum the next day. I told him he reached me at a bad time and that I was having a lot of doubts about the church right now and needed to get things right in my life. He was persistent and said I was to do it anyway. I told him to find a substitute, maybe tell whoever was to do it next week and I would trade with him. He very rudely told me that it was my responsibility to find me a replacement, not his, and that I should get the ward directory and start calling people. I just said fine and hung up.

I was so angry after all the problems I've had with this guy already that I didn't even bother going to church today. 5 minutes before priesthood was to start I saw on my caller ID that he was calling me. I didn't even bother answering. I'm still very upset right now, and have been having a lot of doubts about the church as it is. I just found out a lot of things that have been causing me to have doubts about the truthfulness of this church, and this has been making me wonder if it wouldn't be better to just stay home. I can always read the Bible with my grandmother at home and worship Him on my own terms without mean people taking jabs at me all the time.

Even if this church turns its back on me, I know Jesus Christ will never turn his back on me. Even if the bad things I've been hearing about Joseph Smith or the early church are true, it still doesn't change Christ's love for me and I know no matter where I am I will still have Him.

I'm wondering, what will they probably do since I didn't show up to teach the EQ lesson? I am definitely going to ask to be released from all callings and excused from 3rd hour, but I'm not sure if they will try some sort of formal disciplinary proceedings or take my temple recommend.

The way the EQ President and the bishop have treated me and my grandmother, especially after the bishop yelled at my grandmother on the phone, I know these local leaders definitely do not emulate Jesus Christ. I know God will not hold it against me if they decide to ask me to leave the church. Right now I'm taking time off from it to do some soul searching, and to do more research on the church. I'm going to spend some time in prayer as well. I thought about quitting on my own, but I don't want to do anything in haste that I might regret later. I really want the church to be true, and I wish I could get along better with the people in my ward, but nothing I try seems to work. So, any advice you guys might have I would really appreciate it.

Your testimony is not about the Elders Quorum President or others in the church; it is about GOD and the Savior. Next to that, it is about Joseph Smith being called of GOD and holding that key to our dispensation. It is about the Gospel of Christ and the Atonement that was given to us as to aid us in returning home. It is about going through those trials of fire.

Let me offer this to you, do you not think that Christ suffered greatly by the hands of his members or by those of the world? You find the same familiar pattern with the life of Joseph Smith who suffered under the same persecution of his fellow members. Even I have more enemies in the church who declared them to be Saints than the world. The pattern remains the same my friend. This is a norm for those who wish to follow the Savior.

When ever someone calls you to give a talk, a calling, or to do something that may contradict the Spirit, simply to tell them you need a confirmation from the Lord. I had at times told a Bishopric member, no. It is not hard to say it.

Your worship is going to church and to attend your meetings no matter the persecution received. I promise you, if you are right in your venting, this man will be replace.

[AnnieO]

Hi I don't often post here in the forums so excuse me please if I'm doing this wrong

:-S

I've had a similar situation very recently with my local bishopric - the best advice I've ever had is that old chestnut of 'just do it'. The adversary will get in your head and making you doubt you should go to your ward right up and perhaps even right through your Sunday meetings. But you have to be stronger than that. Just remember that Heavenly Father is just a prayer away and that He'll be watching you as you attend your meetings.

Remember too that attendance at our meetings isn't really an option but a commandment. I even looked into going to another church entirely when I was in this dilemma with my local leaders, it'd have been fairly easy as a convert I could've just gone back to the church I was in before I joined Church. I wasn't questioning the Book of Mormon or really any LDS doctrine, simply I couldn't hack the way I was being treated by the leadership.

But you know what? I put my trust in Heavenly Father and went. Even when I was thinking of driving straight past and going home again, even when I wanted to split during sacrament meeting, I kept thinking about why I was there. Remember, you don't go for the people - you go for you and God. No one else. I know that's hard, but sometimes Satan will make us blow things out of all proportion.

For what it's worth I think your EQ pres was trying to be helpful, he's probably exceedingly concerned by the sentiments you've expressed; I think he probably felt that if you did a lesson then you'd have a 'spiritual moment'. There is a seminary song I think that talks about reaching towards heaven and heaven reaches back. I think that's what your EQ was probably trying to force in perhaps a misdirected way. :-S

I hope your test was better than you thought it was; and I sincerely hope you don't give up on either your exams or the Church just because of a few crummy people =D

[bjw]

I'm curious here, having read both of your posts concerning your EQP, are you interested in working something out amicably? or simply looking for an exit strategy??

At this point I'm probably looking for an exit to the callings. I do not think there will be any way I can work with this EQ President in the future, even if I stay with the church.

Thanks to everyone that has posted so far. I do like the church and I would like to stay with it. Even though I have now learned that people in the early church like Joseph and Emma Smith, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, etc. were not the good people the church is making them out to be and that they did a lot of bad things, my testimony is in Jesus Christ and not in fallible humans. However, its like another poster said earlier, that when local leadership treats you bad it just compounds these things and makes you have even more doubts about the truthfulness of the church. After all, it would be much easier to just give up on it then it would to try to stay and work things out.

I do plan to take my doubts to the bishop and see what he has to say, and see if I can get released from the callings and excused from 3rd hour. I don't know, this whole situation just has me really depressed right now and I hope I decide what to do pretty soon.

[jadams_4040]

I've had another situation come up at my ward, and the church in general, and wanted some advice. You guys really helped out last time. It seems that I'm having more problems at my ward with the EQ President and the church.

On Saturday I went to take the CSET Mathematics exam, its very hard and only has a 20% pass rate, and I had so much riding on passing it this time, since I had already paid a non-refundable $500 fee to take night classes starting in June while I intern as a high-school math teacher. Its going to really cost me since my salary would have tripled had I passed the exam, and I'm having a lot of financial trouble. Well, the EQ President called me right when I got back from the exam, and I know I failed it, and I was almost in tears while we talked. He asked me what was wrong and I explained to him the situation. He came across as being very insensitive and told me he wanted me to teach a lesson in Elder's Quorum the next day. I told him he reached me at a bad time and that I was having a lot of doubts about the church right now and needed to get things right in my life. He was persistent and said I was to do it anyway. I told him to find a substitute, maybe tell whoever was to do it next week and I would trade with him. He very rudely told me that it was my responsibility to find me a replacement, not his, and that I should get the ward directory and start calling people. I just said fine and hung up.

I was so angry after all the problems I've had with this guy already that I didn't even bother going to church today. 5 minutes before priesthood was to start I saw on my caller ID that he was calling me. I didn't even bother answering. I'm still very upset right now, and have been having a lot of doubts about the church as it is. I just found out a lot of things that have been causing me to have doubts about the truthfulness of this church, and this has been making me wonder if it wouldn't be better to just stay home. I can always read the Bible with my grandmother at home and worship Him on my own terms without mean people taking jabs at me all the time.

Even if this church turns its back on me, I know Jesus Christ will never turn his back on me. Even if the bad things I've been hearing about Joseph Smith or the early church are true, it still doesn't change Christ's love for me and I know no matter where I am I will still have Him.

I'm wondering, what will they probably do since I didn't show up to teach the EQ lesson? I am definitely going to ask to be released from all callings and excused from 3rd hour, but I'm not sure if they will try some sort of formal disciplinary proceedings or take my temple recommend.

The way the EQ President and the bishop have treated me and my grandmother, especially after the bishop yelled at my grandmother on the phone, I know these local leaders definitely do not emulate Jesus Christ. I know God will not hold it against me if they decide to ask me to leave the church. Right now I'm taking time off from it to do some soul searching, and to do more research on the church. I'm going to spend some time in prayer as well. I thought about quitting on my own, but I don't want to do anything in haste that I might regret later. I really want the church to be true, and I wish I could get along better with the people in my ward, but nothing I try seems to work. So, any advice you guys might have I would really appreciate it.

Doesnt sound like l.d.s members at all? if things are the way you are telling, {and i,m sure they are}, maybe start attending another ward would be the very best thing you could do; there is nothing wrong with doing that and heavenly father will confirm that to you in prayer.:)

[pam]

Even though I have now learned that people in the early church like Joseph and Emma Smith, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, etc. were not the good people the church is making them out to be and that they did a lot of bad things,

Before anyone that might be investigating takes this the wrong way...let's remember the wonderful and good things these same people also did. They just weren't perfect.

Edit to add one thing...these 3 men mentioned were also Prophets of God that did great things. Joseph having restored the Church in these latter days.

Edited May 19, 2009 by pam

[Guest missingsomething]

You know BJW

I too have found myself at odds with people. Most of them lack humility and believe it is their job to judge and "bring people to righteousness at all cost" and that they are "right and justified". But that is THEIR problem. Not yours.

If satan cant get at you any other way - he will cause contention. Yeah, these guys may not be on the best spiritual level. They arent perfect. But leaving the church is not the right answer. Pres. Benson gave a talk on Pride and forgiveness.... and he said... no matter what people do to us... no matter how bad they treat us... no matter if they ask for forgiveness... we must find a way to forgive them. And it is NOT for their benefit. Its a heavy weight to carry around.

I have had a bishop that has gotten in my face screaming at me in a hallway (luckily stake pres happened to be there). Follow the line of authority - if you can not resolve things w/ your EQ or bishop - go to the next level - and talk to someone in the stake. But you can't believe that they will take "your side" 100%. As apostate accurrately portrayed, you must resolve that you can and will resolve things... otherwise your heart will not be softened. Make sense?

Good luck- but dont quit going! Go just to spite them! You can ask for a release if you wish - but I cant see if this is all thats going on...that your membership will be in jeopardy.

[spiritseeker]

BJW I just wanted to add that Joseph Smith was a Prophet but, he was also human. So, many times I think people assume that a Prophet of God is "perfect" all of the time not so... When they are performing their duties as a spokesperson for Heavenly Father the answer is yes but then there are the times they are just people like us with doubts and fears ect. Look at Moses he wasn't able to enter the promised land because of his sinful nature. IMO it makes the truth of this Church no less. In fact it gives me hope that God understands my shortcomings... I agree with jadams if it's not working with this ward find another. It reminds me of the old saying , " Don't throw out the baby with the bath water." The truthfulness of the restored gospel has nothing to do with the failings of us weak humans...:)

[bjw]

BJW I just wanted to add that Joseph Smith was a Prophet but, he was also human. So, many times I think people assume that a Prophet of God is "perfect" all of the time not so... When they are performing their duties as a spokesperson for Heavenly Father the answer is yes but then there are the times they are just people like us with doubts and fears ect. Look at Moses he wasn't able to enter the promised land because of his sinful nature. IMO it makes the truth of this Church no less. In fact it gives me hope that God understands my shortcomings... I agree with jadams if it's not working with this ward find another. It reminds me of the old saying , " Don't throw out the baby with the bath water." The truthfulness of the restored gospel has nothing to do with the failings of us weak humans...:)

There is a big difference here, the Bible does not attempt to sugercoat or lie about things that happen in the past. Even drastic things God does are presented in the open, like when people are killed in the OT or prophets disobey God.

A few example of things I take issue with: Emma Smith poisoned Joseph Smith's coffee, and Joseph Smith's brother Samuel died mysteriously of poison. (Some attempted to frame Brigham Young) Brigham Young in the JoD said that Emma Smith was insane and had lost her mind and was an apostate. Yet today she is called "the elect lady" with pictures of her hanging in relief society rooms and movies made. She is viewed as a heroine that young women can pattern their lives after. Which is it?

In fact, the Relief Society was disbanded by the church for a 20 year period when Emma began teaching anti-polygamy doctrine, and was reinstated later in SLC by Brigham. According to Sherry Dew, it was disbanded because of mob persecution.

OD-1 now appears in the D&C as a revelation that was mandatory for the church to follow forbidding plural marriage, issued by God's prophet Wilford Woodruff. Yet, 6,000 plural marriages were performed between 1890 and 1910, long after the alleged revelation, some of which were performed by Woodruff personally or were Woodruff taking on additional wives. It wasn't until the Senate hearing that the second manifesto was issued in 1910 making monogamy mandatory for Latter-day Saints, but was left out of the D&C. This was discussed recently by pro-Mormon apologists on MADB just a week ago.

Joseph Smith committed numerous crimes during the course of his leadership in the church, some of which include the Kirtland Banking Scandal, secret polygamy, and the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor printing press (which led to his death). The priesthood manual and church history literature (Our Heritage, etc.) leaves out the reasons whenever Joseph Smith is imprisoned or even the reason he was killed. I agree that what happened to him was a travesty, but to say that he had no part in bringing the persecution on himself is simply not true, and the historical record confirms it.

I have also found out things recently like when the Book of Mormon in Alma 40 quotes the Westminster Confession and the Book of Abraham translation issues. I have some temple-related issues that I can't mention here but it bothers me.

Honestly, it just broke my heart when I learned these things. I've been a very staunch defender of the church, you can even see that in my past threads on here and MADB, but lately the more I learn about it is the less I find I am able to defend it. I would like to have an answer to these things. I honestly want to believe that the church is true. Even the Bible is more honest than this when talking about the disobedience of prophets and problems with God's people.

I'm scheduled to meet with the bishop tomorrow night and I am going to tell him about all of my doubts in addition to the problems with the EQ President and tell him that I would just like a break from everything, at least from 3rd hour. I would also like to know if there is an answer to some of these things. I pray I can stay in the church and I also pray that the church will be more honest in the future.

[spiritseeker]

I will add you to my prayers. Hang in there brother!!! All I can do is testify to you that this is the truth and that satan is using these things to confuse you. Please don't give up.....

[Soul_Searcher]

There is a big difference here, the Bible does not attempt to sugercoat or lie about things that happen in the past. Even drastic things God does are presented in the open, like when people are killed in the OT or prophets disobey God.

A few example of things I take issue with: Emma Smith poisoned Joseph Smith's coffee, and Joseph Smith's brother Samuel died mysteriously of poison. (Some attempted to frame Brigham Young) Brigham Young in the JoD said that Emma Smith was insane and had lost her mind and was an apostate. Yet today she is called "the elect lady" with pictures of her hanging in relief society rooms and movies made. She is viewed as a heroine that young women can pattern their lives after. Which is it?

In fact, the Relief Society was disbanded by the church for a 20 year period when Emma began teaching anti-polygamy doctrine, and was reinstated later in SLC by Brigham. According to Sherry Dew, it was disbanded because of mob persecution.

OD-1 now appears in the D&C as a revelation that was mandatory for the church to follow forbidding plural marriage, issued by God's prophet Wilford Woodruff. Yet, 6,000 plural marriages were performed between 1890 and 1910, long after the alleged revelation, some of which were performed by Woodruff personally or were Woodruff taking on additional wives. It wasn't until the Senate hearing that the second manifesto was issued in 1910 making monogamy mandatory for Latter-day Saints, but was left out of the D&C. This was discussed recently by pro-Mormon apologists on MADB just a week ago.

Joseph Smith committed numerous crimes during the course of his leadership in the church, some of which include the Kirtland Banking Scandal, secret polygamy, and the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor printing press (which led to his death). The priesthood manual and church history literature (Our Heritage, etc.) leaves out the reasons whenever Joseph Smith is imprisoned or even the reason he was killed. I agree that what happened to him was a travesty, but to say that he had no part in bringing the persecution on himself is simply not true, and the historical record confirms it.

I have also found out things recently like when the Book of Mormon in Alma 40 quotes the Westminster Confession and the Book of Abraham translation issues. I have some temple-related issues that I can't mention here but it bothers me.

Honestly, it just broke my heart when I learned these things. I've been a very staunch defender of the church, you can even see that in my past threads on here and MADB, but lately the more I learn about it is the less I find I am able to defend it. I would like to have an answer to these things. I honestly want to believe that the church is true. Even the Bible is more honest than this when talking about the disobedience of prophets and problems with God's people.

I'm scheduled to meet with the bishop tomorrow night and I am going to tell him about all of my doubts in addition to the problems with the EQ President and tell him that I would just like a break from everything, at least from 3rd hour. I would also like to know if there is an answer to some of these things. I pray I can stay in the church and I also pray that the church will be more honest in the future.

I feel EXACTLY the same way as you BJW. This was my situation a year ago. It confused me and shattered my belief system and my life quite frankly. I get very annoyed at the picture painted by the chuch that the early members were somehow these saintly beings, when in reality they were all totally messed up.

*Sigh* I still dont know how I can resolve these issues. I think you are on the right path though by focusing on Christ rather than the early prophets of the church. You could explain it away by saying they WERE frauds, bad people etc. But for some reason the Lord chose them to restore and lead the church. I think for me that is the only way I can ever get past it. It still brings up issues tho, as I dont have much motivation to keep gospel principles, as I cant be sure if they came from the weird and wonderful mind of Joseph Smith, or truly from God.

I really didnt know that about emma smith poisining Joseph tho. Where did you hear that from?

By the way, you dont have to be 'excused' from any part of church atall. Its not school, where u need permission or a note from your parents. If you dont want to attend Priesthood, dont. You could INFORM the Bishop of your decision if you feel thats what you want to do, but you do not need his permission.

[bjw]

I really didnt know that about emma smith poisining Joseph tho. Where did you hear that from?

By the way, you dont have to be 'excused' from any part of church atall. Its not school, where u need permission or a note from your parents. If you dont want to attend Priesthood, dont. You could INFORM the Bishop of your decision if you feel thats what you want to do, but you do not need his permission.

I believe the story about Emma poisoning Joseph's coffee was told by Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses, but several books have mentioned, and I've heard it mentioned on MADB before, so I'm sure someone over there could probably help you out as far as a source goes.

I had another question about callings and priesthood attendance. I thought there was something in the temple recommend interview about magnifying your callings and attending meetings. Can they take a recommend for these things, and is there a question in the interview about it? I had my last one several months ago, but I can't remember all of the questions.

[Kenny]

Some years ago I accepted a calling into the young men’s presidency as 1st councillor, the new president while a good man and hard working had not been president before. His first task was to have a meeting with the young men but excluded his councillors. My response to that was not to support him in his calling and just did not turn up for meetings, the 2nd councillor did the same. Eventually a meeting was called with the member of the bishopric responsible for young men’s. In this meeting we were able to express our grievances. The result of that meeting was the release of the presidency and reassignments for all of us. The 2nd councillor left the church and never came back. It was later said that the reasons he left was because of this young men’s presidency experience but not with the president but me.

I searched long and hard to why he would site me as the reason but when I look back it was simple.

While the president should have included his councillors especially involving the young men my action said more about me than him.

You see this is not my program it’s the Lord’s he put together the presidency and knows all the strengths and weaknesses of those involved. I needed to learn humility and the president needed to learn how to trust and delegate had we worked together then perhaps both of us would have grown from the experience and even become good friends, although he never once showed any resentment towards me the 2nd councillor did and is still inactive.

God leads this church not individuals if He was the president of the young men’s at this time it would have been a perfect presidency nevertheless He trusts and delegates important responsibilities to us lesser mortals but does not leave us to our own understandings we can asks Him for guidance, we can plead for understanding and we can petition the Lord to help us be more humble to see those that grieve us as the children of God they are.

Do know the church is true? From your words I think you do. With reference to leaders in the early days of the church we have leaders today who have lived in better light than those in the past, but remember those times was taking men and women from a period just preceding the dark ages. It’s remarkable the depth of change they must have had to go through just like converts to the church have to go through today.

The Lord loves all his children but also knows we fall well short of the perfection he encourages us to become but while we are trying our best or just trying to get to our best there is hope in Christ that he will do the rest.

I have to live with the thought that something I have done has led to one of the Lord’s anointed going astray but all I can really do is to repent, forgive and improve.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Kenny

[skippy740]

There is a big difference here, the Bible does not attempt to sugercoat or lie about things that happen in the past. Even drastic things God does are presented in the open, like when people are killed in the OT or prophets disobey God.

A few example of things I take issue with: Emma Smith poisoned Joseph Smith's coffee, and Joseph Smith's brother Samuel died mysteriously of poison. (Some attempted to frame Brigham Young) Brigham Young in the JoD said that Emma Smith was insane and had lost her mind and was an apostate. Yet today she is called "the elect lady" with pictures of her hanging in relief society rooms and movies made. She is viewed as a heroine that young women can pattern their lives after. Which is it?

In fact, the Relief Society was disbanded by the church for a 20 year period when Emma began teaching anti-polygamy doctrine, and was reinstated later in SLC by Brigham. According to Sherry Dew, it was disbanded because of mob persecution.

OD-1 now appears in the D&C as a revelation that was mandatory for the church to follow forbidding plural marriage, issued by God's prophet Wilford Woodruff. Yet, 6,000 plural marriages were performed between 1890 and 1910, long after the alleged revelation, some of which were performed by Woodruff personally or were Woodruff taking on additional wives. It wasn't until the Senate hearing that the second manifesto was issued in 1910 making monogamy mandatory for Latter-day Saints, but was left out of the D&C. This was discussed recently by pro-Mormon apologists on MADB just a week ago.

Joseph Smith committed numerous crimes during the course of his leadership in the church, some of which include the Kirtland Banking Scandal, secret polygamy, and the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor printing press (which led to his death). The priesthood manual and church history literature (Our Heritage, etc.) leaves out the reasons whenever Joseph Smith is imprisoned or even the reason he was killed. I agree that what happened to him was a travesty, but to say that he had no part in bringing the persecution on himself is simply not true, and the historical record confirms it.

I have also found out things recently like when the Book of Mormon in Alma 40 quotes the Westminster Confession and the Book of Abraham translation issues. I have some temple-related issues that I can't mention here but it bothers me.

Honestly, it just broke my heart when I learned these things. I've been a very staunch defender of the church, you can even see that in my past threads on here and MADB, but lately the more I learn about it is the less I find I am able to defend it. I would like to have an answer to these things. I honestly want to believe that the church is true. Even the Bible is more honest than this when talking about the disobedience of prophets and problems with God's people.

I'm scheduled to meet with the bishop tomorrow night and I am going to tell him about all of my doubts in addition to the problems with the EQ President and tell him that I would just like a break from everything, at least from 3rd hour. I would also like to know if there is an answer to some of these things. I pray I can stay in the church and I also pray that the church will be more honest in the future.

IF you know that the Gospel and the Church is true...

What does any of this have to do with your Eternal Salvation?

[skippy740]

"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. And let history make its own judgments"

- Zephram Cochran in Star Trek: First Contact

[Hemidakota]

Ken, thanks for sharing your experience.

[talisyn]

bjw, I hate to say it but I will anyways - you're in some major spiritual trouble. I suggest you go back to what you know is true, and that is prayer, fasting, scripture study, and more prayer. Anything else is idle speculation. Were you there in the mid-1800s? Were any of the authors of the books you've been reading? Even if they were they aren't Emma and Joseph and Brigham. So, if you weren't and they weren't then what you have is conjecture and speculation. You could have 4 people write a paper using the same quote and get 4 different views.

MaDB is a good site, but sometimes they go completely nuts and off the wall as far as things of an eternal nature are concerned.

[Guest Apostate]

Sadly, bjw...I think you have a hidden agenda here and have been and continue to be disingenuous with these well meaning Latter Day Saints, concerned for you and your well being...

Shame on you!!!