Need advice, may leave church

[ChristopherMills]

Your EQ President was way out of line. The bishops conduct also seems unbecoming. Try not to hold a grudge though. We must try to maintain a forgiving heart no matter how difficult it may be. Remember that we are all human regardless of our callings. Even in the Bible prophets and apostles made humanly mistakes and had to learn from them. If you feel that you have been treated unfairly (as your story suggests) I would take your issues to the next authority and discuss it with them. If you cannot talk to your bishop about it then the next guy is the stake president. The thing to remember is that the gospel is true but the members are human. Simply because a member has done wrong does not make the Church and its doctrine wrong. This was true in Christ's day and it is true in ours. I have never had an experience like yours but I have had to remind myself of this from time to time.

[elliotteque]

If you know the church is true, and that your elder quorum president is an idiot, then why would you leave the church instead of telling your elder quorum president that he is an idiot?

Don't really call him an idiot though, just be assertive and be the boss of yourself. This situation has nothing at all to do with the church, it is a clash of personalities. Stand up for yourself and don't let anybody push you around.

[Hemidakota]

OP, what is the current update?

Edited May 28, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Kenny]

Not sure you are writing to the right person here but if you think you are could you clarify what update you are asking for.

[bjw]

OP, what is the current update?

Sorry I didn't get back to you guys sooner. Nothing has really happened this past week since I was sick Sunday and didn't get to go to church. I did get to the temple once last week and had a good session. I still really enjoy the church and would like to stay. I'm going to go back to church Sunday and see how things go, and then go from there. If there is still conflict I will probably go to the Stake President next.

[Seanette]

A few example of things I take issue with: Emma Smith poisoned Joseph Smith's coffee, and Joseph Smith's brother Samuel died mysteriously of poison. (Some attempted to frame Brigham Young) Brigham Young in the JoD said that Emma Smith was insane and had lost her mind and was an apostate.

What sort of faith-demolishing garbage are you filling your mind with, anyway? Why do you even express concern about keeping your Temple recommend when you obviously do not have a testimony of the truth of the restored Gospel?

I'm going to challenge you to head over to Society for the Prevention of Anti-Mormonism and get some FACTS to push out the lies you're gulping down from those who would destroy God's work (not that they can, but they're sure putting a lot of effort into trying). That is, if you really want truth and not excuses to apostatize.

[bjw]

What sort of faith-demolishing garbage are you filling your mind with, anyway? Why do you even express concern about keeping your Temple recommend when you obviously do not have a testimony of the truth of the restored Gospel?

I'm going to challenge you to head over to Society for the Prevention of Anti-Mormonism and get some FACTS to push out the lies you're gulping down from those who would destroy God's work (not that they can, but they're sure putting a lot of effort into trying). That is, if you really want truth and not excuses to apostatize.

History of the Church and Journal of Discources are not anti-mormon publiacatons. They are official church publications so should not be "faith-demolishing" garbage. The story about Emma actually came from Brigham Young. If I did not have a testimony of the gospel I would not have even started this thread, and you would see me over at Rfm or Nom right now.

Remember, if this church is true (and I really hope it is) then all truth about it can be revealed and it will still hold up. The whole truth should not be "faith-demolishing." There is absolutely no reason to attempt to sugar-coat any of its history, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with someone studying the history of a church, especially one that they donate so much time, money, faith, and energy to.

The Bible encourages us to be like the Bereans and check everything that is told to us, and we are told to test the spirits. Also, to be prepared to give a reason for the hope we have.

In converting to Mormonism, my father as well as many of my other relatives turned their backs on me, and I gave up my chance at becoming a protestant minister as well as my previous beliefs that I had for nearly 24 years. There is a lot at stake for me in this church, and I can't afford not to have the truth. Please think about that before passing judgment on me.

[Seanette]

I notice in your posts a relentless focus on fault-finding, constant negativity and criticism of anything to do with the Church, making excuses to not believe, and a general attitude that reeks of anti-Mormon rhetoric. I also pick up a general spirit in your posts that matches that of anti-Mormon materials I've read.

You might want to try looking at all your "this church is so awful and the people involve range from jerks to outright evil" posts as if someone else wrote them, and ask yourself if those posts read like a believing member or like a bitter apostate-in-the-making.

[bjw]

Not sure you are writing to the right person here but if you think you are could you clarify what update you are asking for.

Okay, I've got another update.

First of all, thanks to everyone that has been concerned about me and wanted to know what's going on, I really appreciate your concern and the prayers you have given for me.

The Bishop met with the EQ President and he (the EQ President) called me tonight. He said he was concerned about me and was sorry that I wanted out of the presidency. I told him how I felt and explained to him why I was quitting. He did seem apologetic. He said he was also concerned with the doubts I was having about the church. He basically said the same things the bishop said about that, and he said he didn't want me to go inactive. After all that he's done it was hard for me to believe he is sincere, but I think that now that the bishop has excused me from 3rd hour I can go to church for awhile and not run into any problems. Then, maybe later on I can go back to 3rd hour after I take some time away to think about things.

I'm going to talk to the stake president about it next, and I'm probably gonna start going back to church on Sunday. I'll let you guys know how its going as soon as I find out more. Thanks.

[the Ogre]

In converting to Mormonism, my father as well as many of my other relatives turned their backs on me, and I gave up my chance at becoming a protestant minister as well as my previous beliefs that I had for nearly 24 years. There is a lot at stake for me in this church, and I can't afford not to have the truth. Please think about that before passing judgment on me.

Dude, you sound like you are angry at your father. I'm sorry about your failed opportunity. That does sound pretty tragic. I can understand why you are so unhappy.

I'll be honest. I'm not nice at all. I do not put much value on niceness. It is too superficial and mercurial. Brigham Young was quite unhappy with Emma. Emma was quite unhappy with Brigham. He didn't put a lot of stock in niciness either. I am quite aware about the Samuel Smith allegations. The entire situation is controversial. Because it is controversial, I do not take a stand on it because there is no way to know. I however do not think you should be concerned about how nice they were. I also do not think you should judge the past on the standards of today. It pointless and always leads to misunderstanding.

Do not be concerned with how nice a person is now. Most likely, they are faking it. You mentioned problems with you EQ Pres after taking the Cset. Forget it. He might deserve empathy. He might not. It isn't your concern right now.

More about being a minister: one of our moderators is a protestant minister. He makes very little money. I bet seminary teachers make more. However that doesn't matter. You are not one now. Was this the only option you could have had, or are there other things you could do? As the past does not equal the future, I'd think you would be interested in making sure your future could be as distant from you past.

Was your father the only reason you joined, or did you have your own reasons? If I remember right you said you have a testimony. A testimony is worth more than any gold. Do not feed it with pain and disappointment. Search for what will supply it with joy.

Take the test again and then go on to teach kids math. Eventually I'm going to be teaching college freshman English. I can't be concerned with the putzes I meet along the way.

I'm going to talk to the stake president about it next, and I'm probably gonna start going back to church on Sunday. I'll let you guys know how its going as soon as I find out more. Thanks.

Good news then. Good luck. Don't worry about it. A protestant friend told me today worry was a sin. I don't know about that, but just in case . . . Edited May 29, 2009 by the Ogre

[bjw]

I notice in your posts a relentless focus on fault-finding, constant negativity and criticism of anything to do with the Church, making excuses to not believe, and a general attitude that reeks of anti-Mormon rhetoric. I also pick up a general spirit in your posts that matches that of anti-Mormon materials I've read.

You might want to try looking at all your "this church is so awful and the people involve range from jerks to outright evil" posts as if someone else wrote them, and ask yourself if those posts read like a believing member or like a bitter apostate-in-the-making.

Its posts like this that are negative and fault-finding. I honestly can't believe anyone would think a sincere seeker of truth is an apostate. Why don't you accuse the writers of the JoD and HC of these things since its there you can find most of these things. I was not making excuses not to believe. Anytime anyone finds any problem whatsoever with the church its people like this that accuse them of being anti-mormons.

Also, I never said "this church is so awful and the people range from jerks to outright evil" in any post. I said some of the early church leaders were not as good as the church makes them out to be and did a lot of bad things. I went on to give examples supporting that statement. It's true, so what. People are not perfect, later posts in the thread went on to prove this. You are taking what I said and making very harsh generalizations that are not there. With this attitude you will drive more people away from the church than you will help them stay in. If you are wanting to do apologetics as your website indicates, then you should learn to be more patient with people and not pass judgment on them. People like me are hurting, some feel betrayed, and want answers.

Now, you do what you told me to do. Only put yourself in the shoes of someone who believed something for 24 years, found out it was all a lie, did not know where to turn, and joined a church which they served for 5 years as a loyal member. Then, they found out this church was not entirely truthful and people start falsely accusing them of being an apostate, questioning God/the Gospel, and just trying to find fault or find an excuse not to believe.

Seems different now, doesn't it? So, you do not know me, so don't pass judgment on me. It's rhetoric like what was in this posts that really does cast doubt on the church for me. Because, in my mind, it seems like questioning or thinking for yourself is frowned on, and you are just insulted and told to "get back in line" whenever you want to know why something is.

[bjw]

Was your father the only reason you joined, or did you have your own reasons?

I resent that. I love my father and would not join a church just to upset him or get him to turn his back on me.

[the Ogre]

Its posts like this that are negative and fault-finding. I honestly can't believe anyone would think a sincere seeker of truth is an apostate.

You should not be concerned about that post. Focus instead on what you have to do and not what anyone else has to say.

Thank her for her concern and then move on.

[MorningStar]

Okay, I've got another update.

First of all, thanks to everyone that has been concerned about me and wanted to know what's going on, I really appreciate your concern and the prayers you have given for me.

The Bishop met with the EQ President and he (the EQ President) called me tonight. He said he was concerned about me and was sorry that I wanted out of the presidency. I told him how I felt and explained to him why I was quitting. He did seem apologetic. He said he was also concerned with the doubts I was having about the church. He basically said the same things the bishop said about that, and he said he didn't want me to go inactive. After all that he's done it was hard for me to believe he is sincere, but I think that now that the bishop has excused me from 3rd hour I can go to church for awhile and not run into any problems. Then, maybe later on I can go back to 3rd hour after I take some time away to think about things.

I'm going to talk to the stake president about it next, and I'm probably gonna start going back to church on Sunday. I'll let you guys know how its going as soon as I find out more. Thanks.

You're not in a singles ward, are you? Would you object to teaching primary? That would cover the 3rd hour and you wouldn't have to deal with EQ much at all. :)

[bjw]

You're not in a singles ward, are you? Would you object to teaching primary? That would cover the 3rd hour and you wouldn't have to deal with EQ much at all. :)

No, I am not in a singles ward.

That might be a good idea. I'm assuming the bishop will try to reassign me to something eventually.

[bjw]

Well, I talked to the Stake President's secretary tonight and he's going to make me an appointment with the Stake President, so I'll let you all know how it goes.

[beefche]

You're not in a singles ward, are you? Would you object to teaching primary? That would cover the 3rd hour and you wouldn't have to deal with EQ much at all. :)

I bet you can volunteer for the nursery....they always seem to need people.

[ADoyle90815]

Its posts like this that are negative and fault-finding. I honestly can't believe anyone would think a sincere seeker of truth is an apostate. Why don't you accuse the writers of the JoD and HC of these things since its there you can find most of these things. I was not making excuses not to believe. Anytime anyone finds any problem whatsoever with the church its people like this that accuse them of being anti-mormons.

Also, I never said "this church is so awful and the people range from jerks to outright evil" in any post. I said some of the early church leaders were not as good as the church makes them out to be and did a lot of bad things. I went on to give examples supporting that statement. It's true, so what. People are not perfect, later posts in the thread went on to prove this. You are taking what I said and making very harsh generalizations that are not there. With this attitude you will drive more people away from the church than you will help them stay in. If you are wanting to do apologetics as your website indicates, then you should learn to be more patient with people and not pass judgment on them. People like me are hurting, some feel betrayed, and want answers.

Now, you do what you told me to do. Only put yourself in the shoes of someone who believed something for 24 years, found out it was all a lie, did not know where to turn, and joined a church which they served for 5 years as a loyal member. Then, they found out this church was not entirely truthful and people start falsely accusing them of being an apostate, questioning God/the Gospel, and just trying to find fault or find an excuse not to believe.

Seems different now, doesn't it? So, you do not know me, so don't pass judgment on me. It's rhetoric like what was in this posts that really does cast doubt on the church for me. Because, in my mind, it seems like questioning or thinking for yourself is frowned on, and you are just insulted and told to "get back in line" whenever you want to know why something is.

If it makes you feel any better, I reported that particular post.

[ADoyle90815]

Good luck with your meeting, and I hope things work out for you since you made sacrifices with your family to join. I don't think you had any resentment towards your father, in fact I can tell that you have Christ-like love for him.

It's natural to have questions about religion, most people do question their beliefs at some point in their lives. Not everyone who questions is "evil" in fact it might make one's faith stronger since they made it through that period and remained in their particular church.

[Kenny]

My view is putting into perspective why are here and try to remember in the end its not down to what others do with their probation on Earth it’s what we do with it.

If I look over my time as member of Christ's church, being taken out of the world when I was thirty you might say, being amongst people supposedly enlightened or being enlighten , that my time should have been better than if I had stayed away then you would be wrong. I’ve experienced a lot of unkind, unchristian individuals. Seen my wife and children abused, I’ve often wondered what on earth I am doing here.

What I cannot deny, ever deny, is that I was told the truth that February Tuesday 22 years ago. The truth that Joseph Smith was who he said he was and the church he organised was Jesus Christ’s restored after being lost at the deaths of the last apostles nearly two thousand years ago.

Not all of us are natural church members and expect better from those that are. But the answer lies in the Plan of salvation. To me the Gospel is a lot simpler than most people sometimes claim.

In the great council often referred as the war in heaven was no more than a great debate over whether we go along with the way it’s always been done or the easier route turning over our free agency to Lucifer.

In any debate there are always those that are firmly rooted on one side or the other and it is the floaters that fuel the debate.

Human nature being what it was would have a majority in favour of an easier route. Only after all the pros and cons were laid out did it eventually have two thirds of us choosing Jehovah’s persuasions and the Plan of Salvation.

It wasn’t Lucifer’s plan that got him ejected from heaven but rebelling and possibly trying to win back floaters that subjected him to the laws of heaven and Father’s disapproval.

Remember he and his followers are still down here and because of the veil we don’t know if we were one of the floaters or not. The fact he and his devils never lets up is an indication that that might be a possibility.

Satan is relentless in his pursuit to get as many of us in his court as possible even though he can never win. The only victory he could ever have is for him to say had we followed him we would have all got back.

Fortunately for all of us through the Plan of Salvation the sort of victory Christ’s offers us is more meaningful and eternal.

Lucifer offered us another way, Jehovah pondered in his mind, after acquiring all the information he could, that there was no other way to get all that our Father had then by the way it had always been done.

There are always going to be those that will upset or disappoint us just as there are always going to be those that uplift and inspire us what is more important is that we always remember whose plan we follow and are always striving to do the best we can.

[bjw]

Adoyle and Kenny, well said.

[ztodd]

Hi bjw, how's it going?

History of the Church and Journal of Discources are not anti-mormon publiacatons.

True. But you're not just reading the official history of the church and the JoD, are you? What else are you reading?

The Bible encourages us to be like the Bereans and check everything that is told to us, and we are told to test the spirits. Also, to be prepared to give a reason for the hope we have.

I don't know who the Bereans are, but that sounds fine. Give us some details of how it's going with your testing!

[ztodd]

There is a big difference here, the Bible does not attempt to sugercoat or lie about things that happen in the past. Even drastic things God does are presented in the open, like when people are killed in the OT or prophets disobey God.

A few example of things I take issue with: Emma Smith poisoned Joseph Smith's coffee, and Joseph Smith's brother Samuel died mysteriously of poison. (Some attempted to frame Brigham Young) Brigham Young in the JoD said that Emma Smith was insane and had lost her mind and was an apostate. Yet today she is called "the elect lady" with pictures of her hanging in relief society rooms and movies made. She is viewed as a heroine that young women can pattern their lives after. Which is it?

In fact, the Relief Society was disbanded by the church for a 20 year period when Emma began teaching anti-polygamy doctrine, and was reinstated later in SLC by Brigham. According to Sherry Dew, it was disbanded because of mob persecution.

OD-1 now appears in the D&C as a revelation that was mandatory for the church to follow forbidding plural marriage, issued by God's prophet Wilford Woodruff. Yet, 6,000 plural marriages were performed between 1890 and 1910, long after the alleged revelation, some of which were performed by Woodruff personally or were Woodruff taking on additional wives. It wasn't until the Senate hearing that the second manifesto was issued in 1910 making monogamy mandatory for Latter-day Saints, but was left out of the D&C. This was discussed recently by pro-Mormon apologists on MADB just a week ago.

Joseph Smith committed numerous crimes during the course of his leadership in the church, some of which include the Kirtland Banking Scandal, secret polygamy, and the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor printing press (which led to his death). The priesthood manual and church history literature (Our Heritage, etc.) leaves out the reasons whenever Joseph Smith is imprisoned or even the reason he was killed. I agree that what happened to him was a travesty, but to say that he had no part in bringing the persecution on himself is simply not true, and the historical record confirms it.

I have also found out things recently like when the Book of Mormon in Alma 40 quotes the Westminster Confession and the Book of Abraham translation issues. I have some temple-related issues that I can't mention here but it bothers me.

Honestly, it just broke my heart when I learned these things. I've been a very staunch defender of the church, you can even see that in my past threads on here and MADB, but lately the more I learn about it is the less I find I am able to defend it. I would like to have an answer to these things. I honestly want to believe that the church is true. Even the Bible is more honest than this when talking about the disobedience of prophets and problems with God's people.

I'm scheduled to meet with the bishop tomorrow night and I am going to tell him about all of my doubts in addition to the problems with the EQ President and tell him that I would just like a break from everything, at least from 3rd hour. I would also like to know if there is an answer to some of these things. I pray I can stay in the church and I also pray that the church will be more honest in the future.

You have quite a list there- what have you been able to find so far to help answer your concerns? Which of these points are you currently researching? Have any specific questions?

For what it's worth, if I can offer an opinion- listing a bunch of things that make the church looks bad like that, it makes it looks like you're not trying to do a fair balanced study to find the real truth anymore- it looks like all you're trying to do is bash the church.

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but can you understand how it looks that way?

[bjw]

Hi bjw, how's it going?

True. But you're not just reading the official history of the church and the JoD, are you? What else are you reading?

I don't know who the Bereans are, but that sounds fine. Give us some details of how it's going with your testing!

Actually, most of it I heard other Mormons talk about on MADB, it can all be backed up by first-hand sources.

The Bereans are a group mentioned in the New Testament in the Bible, who did not merely take man's word for everything but looked it up in scripture. They are mentioned in Acts 17:11.

As for the testing, I just started my college classes for my teaching credential, and I'm scheduled to retake the test next month. I just hope I can pass it this time. :)

[bjw]

You have quite a list there- what have you been able to find so far to help answer your concerns? Which of these points are you currently researching? Have any specific questions?

For what it's worth, if I can offer an opinion- listing a bunch of things that make the church looks bad like that, it makes it looks like you're not trying to do a fair balanced study to find the real truth anymore- it looks like all you're trying to do is bash the church.

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but can you understand how it looks that way?

Well, I've been doing quite a bit of research the past couple weeks and I'll let you know some of what I've been able to find out.

About OD-1, which appeared to me to be a lie since the church actually continued polygamy another 20 years. However, after reading FAIR's explanation of why OD-1 was issued it seems to make more sense to me. The church adopted OD-1 as "advice" to discontinue polygamy, not as a commandment, similar to how the Word of Wisdom was issued as advice and later phased in as a commandment. (If you read the wording carefully it reads like advice.) The church had to do this because the US Government had planned to use the Edmunds-Tucker Act to confiscate the land holdings of the church, including the Utah temples (I think there were 3 at the time.) This act allowed for any property of polygamists to be confiscated. Printing OD-1 in the D&C showed the government the church was willing to cooperate as far as getting "advice" out to the general membership to discontinue polygamy. In the early 1900s George Albert Smith, who was then prophet, issued the second manifesto making it a commandment to cease plural marriage, the same way the Word of Wisdom was later made a commandment. This occured during the senate investigation.

While I still don't agree with not putting the Second Manifesto in the D&C, I can see from the church's point of view why it had to phase out polygamy the way it did, and how it had to protect the church from losing all of its assets because of this unfair law.

The rest of the things I don't really have an answer for, but they are true. I am willing to accept though that people are not perfect. Whether I list bad things here or not the facts are still the facts. I believe we can still have perfectly good LDS books, sunday school manuals, and priesthood manuals that have truthful information in them.

Yes, I can see why it would look that way to someone that doesn't know me, but I have been a regular at MADB/Fairboards for the past 5 years or so and have also posted on this board since it took over the fellowship board from that forum. I have even met up with six people already that I've met in the LDS online community, and have bore my testimony on the net on various sites several times now. Those that know me know my sincerity.

Actually, if you have more information about these things please let me know, I am also trying to read on FAIR and FARMS on a regular basis. I try to stay clear of anti sites since they are usually biased and come up with a lot of weird things that have been proven false ad naseum.