Need advice, may leave church

[ruthiechan]

Have you considered inviting the missionaries over and taking the discussions again? Nothing wrong with that. Even long time members benefit from the missionaries being in their home.

[Moksha]

Honestly, are we just looking for a "reason" to justify leaving the Church?

I would seem better to me if bjw looked for reasons to stay. There are always dissatisfying items but there are many satisfying items.

[bjw]

A little update...

I got an email from the stake president that said that he wanted to meet with me and my bishop. He said he would have his clerk set up the appointment. He said he hadn't been avoiding me, but that he was under the impression for some reason that I had changed my mind about meeting with him. I'm not sure why though.

I got a phonecall from the head high councilman and he would like to meet with me in person, so I am going to meet him at his house tomorrow night. My former bishop, who also baptised me into the church, stopped by my house last night and we talked for awhile about this. He said he is going to check on this to find out more about it. He feels if this real estate deal really did happen the church is probably not condoning it, but is probably investigating it. He seemed pretty optimistic about the whole thing and said he would get back to me when he found out more about it. He's currently a clerk for the stake presidency, and he has a lot of relatives in SLC. So, I think maybe he can find out something more about it.

We also had a long discussion about some other aspects of the church that I've been having doubts about. I was glad he stopped by and I felt really good about the discussion.

I'll let you know when I find out more and how things are going. Thanks everyone for your concern.

[bjw]

Okay just my opinion here...take it as being rude or whatever. First this thread is started because of a problem with an Elders Quorum President..so the person decides he might want to leave.

Now we are discussing the problem with the perceived feelings on the Church' financial situation, which is causing doubt again and might have the person leave.

Honestly, are we just looking for a "reason" to justify leaving the Church?

What you say does make sense, and I have been asking myself this question over and over. I was just telling my former bishop that came over and visited me last night, that despite everything I have learned about the church, I can't bring myself to the next step of actually taking off the garments, sending in my resignation letter, etc.

Is that the Spirit or is it just my inner feelings of guilt, I do not know. The good experiences I have had with this church far outweigh the bad, and after all my years of being a Christian I can still say this is by far the best church I have been in. I want the church to be true and don't want these bad things to be true. That is why this has been such a struggle for me. I mean, when I left the Presbyterians I did not look back or even give them a second thought. Leaving this church is much harder because there is so much in it that I love.

[ztodd]

Hi bjw, I was wondering - what is it that you base the truthfulness of the church on?

[pam]

What you say does make sense, and I have been asking myself this question over and over. I was just telling my former bishop that came over and visited me last night, that despite everything I have learned about the church, I can't bring myself to the next step of actually taking off the garments, sending in my resignation letter, etc.

Is that the Spirit or is it just my inner feelings of guilt, I do not know. The good experiences I have had with this church far outweigh the bad, and after all my years of being a Christian I can still say this is by far the best church I have been in. I want the church to be true and don't want these bad things to be true. That is why this has been such a struggle for me. I mean, when I left the Presbyterians I did not look back or even give them a second thought. Leaving this church is much harder because there is so much in it that I love.

Then as Moksha recommended..perhaps looking at all the wonderful positive things is what you need to be focusing on. Let yourself be strengthened by those instead of nit picking about some of the other things that REALLY has nothing to do with your eternal salvation.

[beefche]

A little update...

I got an email from the stake president that said that he wanted to meet with me and my bishop. He said he would have his clerk set up the appointment. He said he hadn't been avoiding me, but that he was under the impression for some reason that I had changed my mind about meeting with him. I'm not sure why though.

I got a phonecall from the head high councilman and he would like to meet with me in person, so I am going to meet him at his house tomorrow night. My former bishop, who also baptised me into the church, stopped by my house last night and we talked for awhile about this. He said he is going to check on this to find out more about it. He feels if this real estate deal really did happen the church is probably not condoning it, but is probably investigating it. He seemed pretty optimistic about the whole thing and said he would get back to me when he found out more about it. He's currently a clerk for the stake presidency, and he has a lot of relatives in SLC. So, I think maybe he can find out something more about it.

We also had a long discussion about some other aspects of the church that I've been having doubts about. I was glad he stopped by and I felt really good about the discussion.

I'll let you know when I find out more and how things are going. Thanks everyone for your concern.

Just something to think about....don't be surprised if anyone (your bishop, stake president, missionaries, etc.) can find anything at all about this deal. You may not find the answers you are seeking. It's a business deal and just like I may not be able to find all the information on what Donald Trump does and his real estate deals, you too may be unable to obtain information.

Further, it sounds to me that even if you find an answer that is satisfactory to you regarding this particular issue, you will find another issue that is upsetting to you.

I think all of us must understand that there are going to be unpleasant things to deal with in this church. Each of us (and I truly mean that) will have or come across something that doesn't make sense to us or offends us. And we have to choose how we are going to deal with it. So, I suggest you find the reasons WHY to stay in the church and then stick with those reasons no matter what comes.

[its_Chet]

I don't mean to be rude, but I have to take exception with the idea of "learning" that Joseph Smith was some kind of bad person. I'm taking into consideration the pain that's been inflicted on you by people who are supposed to be helping you rather than harming you spiritually, as well as your emotional state after failing the math test, but I just can't help but take it personally when I hear anyone talking poorly about someone I respect as much as Joseph Smith. I feel obliged to clear a few things up.

I never met Joseph Smith, but my joining the Church was chiefly the result of having heard a friend's father bare his testimony of Joseph Smith to me. I was overwhelmed with a sense of awe and wonder, and was strongly convinced that Joseph Smith was everything a faithful Latter Day Saint knows him to be. Additionally, he may have had his own quirks and faults, but, apart from the mistake he made with the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon, I am unaware of any mistake he made that Heavenly Father felt was severe enough to disqualify him as an Apostle of Jesus Christ, or the President of the Church and first Prophet of this, the last dispensation.

Joseph Smith may have found himself in a legal predicament with the Kirtland Safety Society, but my understanding of the matter is that he did not get himself and the Kirtland Safety Society into the mess in which it ended up through any malfeasance on his part, and once he realized the mess the KSS was in, he was stuck between a rock and hard place and there was no easy way out. I believe he did the best anyone in that position could have done.

After the dedication of the Kirtland Temple, there was a period of about two or three weeks in which none of the Kirtland Saints were subject to temptation of any external kind. They all noticed it. Joseph Smith warned them it wasn’t permanent, and that if they were not prepared, when temptation resumed, there would be much iniquity and even apostasy. As to be expected, Joseph was proven right. The apostasy in Kirtland followed not long after, and Apostles of Jesus Christ left the Church, some of them becoming violent mobbers. Even in those days, if you wanted to, you could easily find someone happy to tell you what a rotten person Joseph Smith was, especially if you were someone like the "men" who tried to kill him and Sidney Rigdon in 1832. There has always been someone happy to lie about Joseph Smith and get us to see him the way satan wants us to see him. The reason why is because it would kill our testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ if we can't trust the word of a Prophet, especially one who opens a new dispensation and is required to dispel ancient heresies (and from that perspective, appears to be a heretic himself).

Some revere Joseph Smith, some detest him. So what are you going to do? Who do you trust? As a tie-breaking vote, may I suggest the Holy Spirit? Don't take my word for it, or any other mortal's, unless you want to use it as a hypothesis to present in prayer to Heavenly Father, sincerely and meekly seeking the Holy Spirit's refutation or confirmation of it. And in order to do that, you'll want to make sure you've done all you can to be worthy of the Holy Spirit's presence (as we all).

When one has a strong testimony of the truthfulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we are shielded from the kind of doubts that you're having. When we disregard the lies of vindictive apostates, and instead listen to the words of the Apostles, we make ourselves able to feel Heavenly Father's undying love for us. You are not happy, and it is plain. This is because your testimony is shrinking and failing. Thomas B. Marsh went through the same thing, and he eventually returned to the Church because he knew it was the only way he could shake the feelings you're having (that, and that the Church was true). You need to care for your testimony, as you would a plant or animal, or as a bodybuilder would care for and exercise his body. You must feed your testimony, and you must exercise it. You must cease feeding your soul poison, like the kind that is so enthusiastically offered by apostates. Those lies, as you have already admitted, bring you sadness and despair. They sicken your soul, much as drinking anti-freeze would sicken your body. Though your soul can't be made to stop existing, it can still be harmed. You have to stop harming it.

One way to stop harming it is to avoid confrontations and contention, so it would be my advice to try to find some way of avoiding anyone in your ward that you feel brings out anger, frustration, resentment, or any other negative emotion in you, at the very least if they do so to the extent that you feel driven to say or do something un-Christlike. You need to purge your soul of all of that which you can. Always remember that you’re really there for the Savior, because of what He did for you, as opposed to being there for yourself or anyone else. Don’t take this the wrong way, but you also need to stop reading anti-Mormon material. The Holy Spirit will confirm truth to you, but if you read anti-Mormon material, it will probably offend the Holy Spirit enough to leave you with only the sorrow and despair you mentioned. That's a red flag that the Holy Spirit is absent. What you want to do is get Him to come back. He most likely won't as long as the anti-Mormon stuff is around, or occupying a spot in your mind. If you own any, I suggest throwing it in the garbage, unless you don’t want to offend the garbage.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is logical and makes perfect sense, but only when all things, or at least enough, are understood. It is incumbent upon us mortal children of God to do the best we can with whatever understanding we have, and the rest we have to take on faith. That's the way it was meant to be. I would reject any "wisdom" that challenges what has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit has revealed to me that Joseph Smith DID see the Father and Son, that angels DID minister to him and teach him many things to prepare him to open this dispensation, and that the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Bible are the word of God, as also are the Prophetic words of the Apostles. Granted, they are not always acting in that capacity. They are men, and they are entitled to have their own opinions and philosophies, same as the rest of us. There may come a day when every thought that crosses our minds fits within a clearly defined Gospel frame, but in this day, who we vote for, what car we drive, when we change the filter in our air conditioners, etc. are all choices we are given the freedom to make for ourselves. This is why good people will sometimes say and do things that we may find disagreeable, but not everything one person finds disagreeable about another person is a sin. That is a matter for God to decide.

Brigham Young had a relatively short temper, but he was also a Prophet. He was not perfect. Nobody who ever walked this earth as a mortal was, except for the Savior. Emma Smith was the widow of a murdered husband. They both loved Joseph, though it is well known that Emma was not fond of the idea of plural marriage, and this, as well as other possible personal issues of hers caused tension between her and Joseph. Hyrum Smith tried to smooth this out on occasion. Brigham Young did not have Hyrum's patience, and was more inclined to speak harshly when Emma left the Church and started/joined a splinter sect with Joseph Smith III as its authority. She was called "an elect lady" by the Lord well before that time, and anyhow, if you were to meet and speak to Joseph Smith today, it wouldn't surprise me if he told you that he never stopped loving her and that she had repented and will be with him in the Celestial Kingdom. It's certainly possible, at least.

Brigham Young did other things that showed he was only human. I've heard that if you look at an altar in the tabernacle in St. George, you'll see a dent that was made when Brigham Young slammed his cane on it in anger over something the Saints there weren't doing right. Additionally other General Authorities in this dispensation likewise have had their own faults. J. Golden Kimball is a classic example of this. He had a problem with coffee (before it was viewed as being as rigidly taboo as it is now) and language, and he struggled with it, notwithstanding the fact that he was a very kind and gracious man. The Lord called him to be a seventy. The Lord called Brigham Young to be a Prophet. Lorenzo Snow once said, and in a complimentary way to Joseph Smith, that knowing that Joseph Smith was a Prophet gave him hope, because he knew Joseph Smith well enough to know he had flaws. He saw that you don't have to be perfect to be a Prophet, and if you don't have to be perfect to be a Prophet, you probably don't have to be perfect to make it to the Celestial Kingdom either. Again, this wasn't meant as a dig at Joseph Smith by Lorenzo Snow.

Everyone's got a flaw. Some are easier to see than others. We can't let this cause us to question the Lord's anointed. It is incumbent upon us to trust the Prophets of all ages. If one of them ever attempted to lead us astray, they would pay a heavy price for it. The Lord doesn't expect His Prophets to be perfect. He only expects them to teach perfect doctrine, and, like the rest of us, do their best to practice it.

Bottom line, don't let the behavior of misbehaving Saints or the lies of vindictive apostates distract you from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And if anything in your life brings you contention, or in any other way makes you feel distanced from Heavenly Father, get away from it. Feed your soul only light and truth, and stay away from the lies, distortion, misrepresentations, contentions, and abuse of others. Close yourself off to the servants of satan and make sure all doors are open to the Savior. Pray before each meal and before sleeping. Read scriptures each day. I might hold off on going to the Temple until you can repair your testimony, but that's about it.

Sorry if this sounds preachy.

[Moksha]

... perhaps looking at all the wonderful positive things is what you need to be focusing on. Let yourself be strengthened by those instead of nit picking about some of the other things that REALLY has nothing to do with your eternal salvation.

Bjw, I was thinking today of another situation that was similar to the Arizona land deal and yet members were quickly able adapt to it, and that was building the Draper Temple in a rather inacessible mud-slide location that seemed to be chosen to make it convenient for multi-million dollar home owners and to enrich land developers. Now, everyone I know does not think twice about its location, even driving up hills on narrow streets with icy roads. They accept that the Lord wanted the Temple there. When they thought of it in the grand scheme of things, they were content. Whether the Church bought these properties for too high of price, it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Best to ask yourself this question: Does the Church meet my spiritual needs. If it does then that is sufficient.

Speaking of other good things, I saw an article today about the LDS Church and the Catholic Church partnering together to help out with the hunger situation in Central Florida. That has to be one of those positives.

:)

[bjw]

I am unaware of any mistake he made that Heavenly Father felt was severe enough to disqualify him as an Apostle of Jesus Christ, or the President of the Church and first Prophet of this, the last dispensation.

This is exactly my point. Most members are unaware of the bad things he did during his life. I think everyone should read the official History of the Church before joining. This is not anti-mormon material, and it has much of the problematic things in it.

For instance, we had one person in a Gospel Doctrine class that was againt any kind of war, and said that nobody should go fight in a war no matter what. He then brought up Joseph Smith and said that Joseph Smith would not even fight back when he faced mob persecution. Thankfully, the teacher knew the true history and mentioned that Joseph Smith killed two of the people in the mob with a gun right before he was shot at Carthage Jail.

Anyway, my testimony is in Jesus Christ, not in any prophet. I wonder if maybe the Holy Ghost isn't showing me these things because he wants me to leave this church. Most of the things I have learned about Joseph Smith are not lies, and can be substantiated by first-hand sources, some of which are pro-Mormon.

There are a lot of good Christians out there that will have nothing to do with this church because of its questionable history. If I would have known what I know now before I was baptized I would have not joined the church. I can still believe in Jesus Christ and be a good Christian, but reject any organization that does things that are against God's will. It's what God wants that I want to do, not because something makes me feel good, but because I know that I am obeying God and not supporting something that is sinful.

[bjw]

Whether the Church bought these properties for too high of price, it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Best to ask yourself this question: Does the Church meet my spiritual needs. If it does then that is sufficient.

Speaking of other good things, I saw an article today about the LDS Church and the Catholic Church partnering together to help out with the hunger situation in Central Florida. That has to be one of those positives.

:)

It matters a great deal if they are paying themselves the high price and pocketing the money.

The church is definitely not meeting my spiritual needs if it is giving money to people like Ira Fulton or not being perfectly honest about its history.

$72 million would solve all the hunger problems in most of the third world countries, not to mention feed a lot of people here in the states.

[bjw]

Then as Moksha recommended..perhaps looking at all the wonderful positive things is what you need to be focusing on. Let yourself be strengthened by those instead of nit picking about some of the other things that REALLY has nothing to do with your eternal salvation.

Which is why we have to ask ourselves the question about the restored Gospel. Is it possible that God could still restore his church with the cast of characters we see in the restoration? In the past I've reconciled this by saying that it would take a person like Joseph Smith for God to really get through to, someone that already believed in the supernatural, seer stones, freemasonry/masonic legends, etc. These things were commonplace in the "burnt over" district and Joseph Smith's environment. I like to think that these were the only type of people that would have believed in the elements of the restoration and that God knew what he was doing when he chose them. Joseph Smith and others had a free-will and so disobeyed God on many occasions, but God still knew they were the type of people who would take the restoration seriously and set the church up as he wanted.

One thing my friend that used to be a bishop said was that many in the church did not truly understand the doctrine of polygamy, and so some marriages were done that shouldn't have happened. Could this be part of God's wisdom? God knew that a righteous posterity would have to be raised up, and this could have been the reason, but was abused by many in the church. That may be the case with everything else, God gives commandments, man messes things up with his sins, and then it has to be changed. This could be, and its one reason I'm struggling a lot, because the church could still be true, even with some "untrue" elements.

It's definitely something to think about.

[bjw]

Hi bjw, I was wondering - what is it that you base the truthfulness of the church on?

Since I already had a strong faith in Jesus Christ before joining this church, I do not believe the truthfulness of Jesus Christ depends on the truthfulness of the church. Rather, since OD-1 says that a prophet can never lead us astray, the truthfulness of the church hinges on the truthfulness of the prophet and those that the church believes have been appointed to run it by the Lord. Therefore, if it can be shown that even one of these prophets are not what they claim to be, the whole thing collapses like a house of cards.

I base my testimony in Jesus Christ on the Holy Ghost. However, when it comes to the church, I have to make sure I don't rely too much on feelings alone that these men are telling the truth. I've had warm-fuzzy feelings about some movies I've gone to see, and even with some music I've listened to. Your feelings can be fooled. Therefore, we have to test the spirits like it says in the Bible. We know if prophets are not up to the biblical standard of prophets, then they are false. Even prophets have faults, but there are standards that all must uphold.

[skippy740]

Please read my signature:

[ztodd]

Since I already had a strong faith in Jesus Christ before joining this church, I do not believe the truthfulness of Jesus Christ depends on the truthfulness of the church.

I agree with ya on that.

Rather, since OD-1 says that a prophet can never lead us astray, the truthfulness of the church hinges on the truthfulness of the prophet

So far so good.

and those that the church believes have been appointed to run it by the Lord.

Meh, maybe not so much. Remember we're talking about what is the deciding factor of whether the church is true or not- what will make or break it. As we get "farther down the chain" from the prophet, it's not tied in to that so much- especially in isolated cases like this.

Therefore, if it can be shown that even one of these prophets are not what they claim to be, the whole thing collapses like a house of cards.

I dunno... it's like you're kind of reaching for any reason you can find to get out.

Ira Fulton's not the prophet.

I base my testimony in Jesus Christ on the Holy Ghost.

That's awesome- you are right on with this.

However, when it comes to the church, I have to make sure I don't rely too much on feelings alone that these men are telling the truth.

??? Without knowing for sure what you mean by "feelings alone"...

Are you saying the Holy Ghost won't tell you the truthfulness of the church, the same way that He tells you the truth of Jesus Christ?

Is this where the problem lies- that you don't (or won't, or can't?) believe Moroni's promise - that the Holy Ghost will tell you the truth of all things?

I've had warm-fuzzy feelings about some movies I've gone to see, and even with some music I've listened to.

Your feelings can be fooled. Therefore, we have to test the spirits like it says in the Bible. We know if prophets are not up to the biblical standard of prophets, then they are false. Even prophets have faults, but there are standards that all must uphold.

It is good to watch and test against the scriptures to determine what things are right and wrong. Nothing wrong with that. Again, I think you're right on with this. The only issue at hand here is whether our prophet was involved in this, and whether it leads us astray as a church.

So now I wonder, what are you looking for? A reason to stay, or a reason to go?

[ztodd]

The article Rico provided is pretty much dead on.

Ira Fulton was bankrupt, about to go under. He sits on our church's finance committee, and structured a deal where he would pay himself double what the land was worth out of hard-earned tithing funds. When a church member is bankrupt I can understand giving the person groceries, paying their light bill, maybe even finding them a new apartment, but giving them a $30+ million kickback over the value of a piece of property is completely out of the question. Also, keep in mind this is a deal we know about, what about the ones that occur that we don't know about?

I found this a few days ago on a site that wasn't even related to Mormonism, and then I searched for it and found that MADB and Mormon Discussions had discussed it in some threads as well. This is blatant fraud, and no church that is headed by Jesus Christ would pull a shady deal like this. This, compounded with all the other things I mentioned in earlier posts, is making me think more and more that this church is just a manmade institution, designed to make those at the top rich, such as Ira Fulton. Fulton donated $20 million to BYU back when GBH was prophet, and there is no evidence that Monson and others did not side with Fulton on this deal.

So of course you like to look at the glass as half-full, right? :) Just kiddin man- but why would you choose to believe than President Monson has done something wrong, just there's no evidence that he didn't? That doesn't make any sense to me

To top it all off I've been trying to get an appointment with my stake president, whose not only been ignoring me himself, but his counselors, clerks, etc. will not give me an appointment with him. I've been trying to get him ever since the stuff started in the OP. So, I sent out e-mails to all members of the bishopric and stake presidency, including the clerks as well as the stake patriarch. I told them all to please try to get an appointment for me to talk to the stake president. I'm going to tell the stake president everything I've found out about and I'm going to see if I can get some kind of explanation about it, especially the Fulton deal. If they refuse to explain it or can't explain it, and I do feel they owe me an explanation, then I'm sending my resignation letter to Salt Lake.

They do, huh? You are a curious fellow dear boy. Please tell why you feel they owe you this.

In the mean time, I am not attending any worship services or the temple until they get back to me and I can discuss all of my problems with the stake president.

You're really crying out for attention here. I pray and hope that your friends in the church will be able to be there for you. We're always here.

I do appreciate the encouragement you guys have provided though. This has really been a tough time for me.

Yeah, I can see it's been tough. I hope things are getting a little better?

.

[pam]

If I would have known what I know now before I was baptized I would have not joined the church. I can still believe in Jesus Christ and be a good Christian, but reject any organization that does things that are against God's will.

Kind of a slippery slope there. If I were to take this at face value..sounds to me like you are saying the Church is a farce.

[WillowTheWhisp]

If I would have known what I know now before I was baptized I would have not joined the church.

So are you saying that you did not join the church because you had a testimony of the truthfulness of the restored Gospel?

Or are you saing that the failings of men outweigh the truthfulness of the restored Gospel?

[BenRaines]

For a perfect church organization to exist it would have to have only perfect people in it. Since we are all sinners and working towards perfection there will be mistakes made.

Good luck in your pursuit of the perfect church, organization or if it be no church at all and just be a good Christian. There are Sundays I wish to be just a good Christian and stay home, watch a ball game, go to the mountains and commune with God, catch a few fish, ah but I have a mission to show Christ I do love him by attending church and serving others my whole life.

Ben Raines

[bjw]

Pam and Willow the Wisp:

I suppose on the flipside that sometimes it may be good for someone to not have all the answers at once. I know there were some doctrines of the restored gospel that I would not have accepted had I known them prior to my baptism. However, later on I did not have as much of a problem with them. If church history could be detrimental to a testimony, maybe its better that people not know a lot of it until their testimony is strong, then it won't matter to them. However, I am still of the philosophy that it is better to disclose everything so people can make an informed decision. Even when longtime members learn things I think it would be better that they heard it from the church first rather than antimormon sources, that way it won't be as much of a shock later on.

[pam]

The history of the Church makes no difference to me at all. It's the doctrine that I hold on to.

[its_Chet]

This is exactly my point. Most members are unaware of the bad things he did during his life. I think everyone should read the official History of the Church before joining. This is not anti-mormon material, and it has much of the problematic things in it.

For instance, we had one person in a Gospel Doctrine class that was againt any kind of war, and said that nobody should go fight in a war no matter what. He then brought up Joseph Smith and said that Joseph Smith would not even fight back when he faced mob persecution. Thankfully, the teacher knew the true history and mentioned that Joseph Smith killed two of the people in the mob with a gun right before he was shot at Carthage Jail.

Anyway, my testimony is in Jesus Christ, not in any prophet. I wonder if maybe the Holy Ghost isn't showing me these things because he wants me to leave this church. Most of the things I have learned about Joseph Smith are not lies, and can be substantiated by first-hand sources, some of which are pro-Mormon.

There are a lot of good Christians out there that will have nothing to do with this church because of its questionable history. If I would have known what I know now before I was baptized I would have not joined the church. I can still believe in Jesus Christ and be a good Christian, but reject any organization that does things that are against God's will. It's what God wants that I want to do, not because something makes me feel good, but because I know that I am obeying God and not supporting something that is sinful.

With respect, Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, an Apostle of Jesus Christ, and I have that directly from the Holy Spirit. I'm sure he made some mistakes because he was only human. That does not shake my faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which I would only have disjointed fragments of were it not for the ministry of Joseph Smith.

I always thought it was common knowledge that Joseph Smith fired out the door in the Carthage Jail at the mob that attacked him and the others. But I've heard this mentioned before as if it were somehow incriminating on Joseph's part (not saying you're doing that now, or that you aren't either). My response to that has always been, “Let's see what you do when you're trapped in a room on the second floor of a building that is surrounded by several hundred bloodthirsty savages, all of them armed, and some of them having just kicked in the door to your room after having shot your brother, your lifelong best friend, in the face and chest, after they've shot another of your friends to pieces, and are about to kill another of your friends. Let's see whether or not you find it appropriate to pick up a pistol and try to defend yourself and your remaining associates.” As far as I'm concerned, Joseph Smith saved the lives of John Taylor and Willard Richards. And even if he didn't, I'm sure it's not easy to remain calm when you're being attacked by a mob of that size and you're trapped and surrounded. Anyone would be justified for fighting for his life in that situation.

Further, if what Joseph did was so bad, I wonder why God would have caused so much freakish suffering amongst those who killed him, like the one mobber (can't remember his name), who developed a bizarre skin disease that resulted in a neat vertical line down the middle of his face, with the skin on one side of it decaying and falling off down to the dry bone, including the eye, while the other side remained intact. And that's just the one that I can remember reading about.

Joseph was absolutely right to fire that pistol. My wife is a descendant of Cyrus Wheelock, the man who smuggled it in to Joseph, and for that one reason alone, I tell my children they should be honored to call him an ancestor.

My testimony is in my Father in Heaven, my Savior, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit who reveals them and all other truth to me. I revere all Prophets, of all dispensations, for the contributions to the Gospel that they have made and their efforts to make it known. This is why I so greatly respect Joseph Smith, because so much of the Gospel would be lost were it not for all the sacrifices he made, all the courage and faith he demonstrated, and for the way he persevered and endured to the end, no matter how persecuted he was, or by whom. Likewise, I admire Peter. I admire Stephen. I admire Moses. I admire Moroni. I admire countless other Prophets. I do not worship them, but they taught the truths He commanded them to, and I would not truly know Him otherwise.

You said that when you heard these bad things about the Church that it broke your heart (maybe not your exact words, but I'm sure I get the picture). That's not how the Holy Spirit works. You weren't shown these things. It sounds like, based on what you've said, that you sought them out. The Prophets have encouraged us to avoid reading anti-Mormon materials not because they're true, but because when we read the lies of an embittered apostate, unless we know the full background to their allegations, we may be tempted to believe them, or to question the truth. I have found that every accusation I've ever heard made against the Church or any of its Prophets is false. I dug for the truth, and the Prophets were ultimately vindicated. Too many people will abandon their faith and leave the Church instead of looking deeper into the story.

I don't intend to sound mean, rather only to defend what I hold sacred, and to dispel what I believe to be false impugnment. I understand that you're relying primarily on documents such as the History of the Church to make your claims. I have no doubt that the History of the Church is an accurate record. I am also not personally troubled if you find it disturbing. It is a very common thing in this world for two people to see the same event and perceive it differently. We all view reality through a prism. It seems to me that the negative experiences you've had with individuals in your Ward have contributed to the makeup of your particular prism, and that as a result, when you read things like the History of the Church, you perceive fault in places where someone like myself would not see it, even though we might both read the exact same words. The way I see it, those negative experiences have colored your prism, and it's been reinforced by inaccurate perceptions of what you've read in the History of the Church. If you want to find fault, you will, even when you're looking in the same place others have when they did not find fault.

Joseph Smith has been accused of a lot of things over the years. I chalk it all up to lies, misunderstandings, distortions, and overall, a sustained effort by satan to lead us away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which Joseph Smith played a tremendously important part in bringing to light.

The Holy Spirit has not shown Joseph to be a bad person. The Holy Spirit is not present when you get negative feelings like the kind you described upon viewing Joseph Smith as a bad person, fallen Prophet, what have you. Those negative feelings come from unclean spirits, the same ones who tempt you to think ill of the Lord's anointed. The same ones who cajoled the mobbers into murdering two innocent men of God on June 27, 1844. Panic, despair, fear, anger, sorrow - those are evidence of the promptings or proximity of unclean spirits. The Holy Spirit will bring you peace, joy, love, confidence, and courage when He confirms the truth to you, and your own words make the opposite to be the case in regards to your current view of the Church of Jesus Christ. Even when He rebukes me for my sins, the Holy Spirit is still gentle, and merciful, never mean or harsh.

I don't mean to condemn you or accuse you. I have my own faults, and am not prepared to have them placed under the spotlight. But I, like Joseph Smith, am able to be human, with faults and imperfections, and still hold the Priesthood after the order of the Son of God. I very strongly encourage you to give Joseph, Brigham, and anyone else you see in a bad light the benefit of the doubt. I encourage you to assume that maybe you don't know the whole story, or clearly understand why some things that were done took place. I encourage you to assume the context to the story may be greater and deeper than it appears, and maybe what seems beyond justification is, in fact, justifiable. Remember Abraham and Isaac on Mt. Moriah. Remember Nephi and Laban. It may be easy to condemn Abraham and Nephi, but in both cases, they only did (or almost did) what they were commanded to do by God.

I defy anyone to sincerely watch the next General Conference and then tell me that those General Authorities are not men of God. I defy anyone to tell me that they do not hold the Priesthood after the order of the Son of God, which they can trace back to the Savior Himself, through Joseph Smith, among others. The Church is true, the evidence is easy to find for anyone who knows how to look. The Holy Spirit bares record of this, and anyone who is able to discern His "voice" will attest. A man can lie or be deceived or speculate. A book can contain inaccuracies, misrepresentations, or lies. But the Holy Spirit cannot lie.

I believe you know what I'm saying, and I'll leave it at that, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[Dravin]

The history of the Church makes no difference to me at all. It's the doctrine that I hold on to.

The clincher for me is when I prayed to know if the Book of Mormon was true, if Joseph Smith was a prophet and if (At the time) Gordon B. Hinckley was a prophet and the Church was true I'm fairly sure that the Holy Ghost was fully aware of the history of the Church, so its not like something is going to (or has been) discovered that is going to make the Holy Ghost go, "Woah, wait up a minute, nobody told me about that!"

[beefche]

The clincher for me is when I prayed to know if the Book of Mormon was true, if Joseph Smith was a prophet and if (At the time) Gordon B. Hinckley was a prophet and the Church was true I'm fairly sure that the Holy Ghost was fully aware of the history of the Church, so its not like something is going to (or has been) discovered that is going to make the Holy Ghost go, "Woah, wait up a minute, nobody told me about that!"

(sorry, my English major is kicking in..."woah" is spelled "whoa"--thank you and now back to your normal programming)

[beefche]

The clincher for me is when I prayed to know if the Book of Mormon was true, if Joseph Smith was a prophet and if (At the time) Gordon B. Hinckley was a prophet and the Church was true I'm fairly sure that the Holy Ghost was fully aware of the history of the Church, so its not like something is going to (or has been) discovered that is going to make the Holy Ghost go, "Woah, wait up a minute, nobody told me about that!"

When I teach at church, I've taught that at some point in your church "career", you WILL get offended....you WILL find something about the church that displeases you or offends you....you WILL have a moment when something or someone makes you wonder about your testimony of the church. So I then ask a rhetorical question to my class..."what is it going to be for you, personally?" Is it going to be someone saying something to your kids that ticks you off? Will it be finding out that your bishop has sinned greatly and is now excommunicated? Is it the husband of that woman you can't stand is now the bishop?

So, again I say, prepare NOW for what it is that could drive you from the church or attending church. Strengthen your testimony of the doctrine and truths of the Gospel. Forgive others and focus on strengthening faith in the Lord. Make a real commitment and covenant to follow Christ and His chosen leaders.