Interracial Marriage and Celestial Glory

[the Ogre]

In a recent spat with another LDS.net member the following quote from President Taylor became an issue:

And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham’s wife, as he had married of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God; and that man should be a free agent to act for himself, and that all men might have the opportunity of receiving or rejecting the truth, and be governed by it or not according to their wishes and abide the result; and that those who would be able to maintain correct principles under all circumstances, might be able to associate with the Gods in the eternal worlds.” (Journal of Discourses 22:304)

However, it turns out, the quote is evidence some members have used against the other poster while he pursues a relationship with an Asian young woman (they are engaged). I understand well his problem as I have had the same problem: my ex-wife is South Korean. For years members with good intentions (including three different bishops) brought this up and some members have even said neither one of us could receive celestial glory even if we were married in the temple. My ward's current relief society president said this exact thing in Relief Society in October 2007. My daughter, who is mixed-race (of course) was very upset when she heard this and stormed out of the meeting in tears and has never been back to church (I did go to the Bishop over it).

This is quite a hot topic and has been discussed in other locations (here is one). I would like to get your opinion.

To be clear, I am not condemning any past general-authorities for what they said. My beef is with modern Latter-day Saints today who still think it is an issue, that interracial marriages should be actively discouraged, and that interracial marriages will block one from celestial glory.

I do want to take this opportunity to apologize to Italics for being so aggressive in that previous thread. He seems like a nice guy and I do not think he intended to smear a former President of the Church.

Please: answer the poll and if you know of any other "evidences" against interracial marriage, I would love to hear them.

Sincerely,

Aaron the Ogre

Edited May 22, 2009 by the Ogre

[martybess]

I don't get it??? Sorry I'm completely out of this one.

[the Ogre]

I don't get it??? Sorry I'm completely out of this one.

Yeah, I sympathize. I don't understand racism or how people can use the gospel to prop-up something that is obviously wrong.

[Justice]

I view skin color like eye color. One is just different than the other but has no bearing on what kind of a person they are.

[lilered]

I know of no current Church doctorine that forbids interacial marriage. The church is silent on the subject. I accept their position.

Your poll does not contain a catagory for those who believe the Church should continue its current position of silence on the subject.

Which may mean that interracial marriage is left as a decision between those who desire to enter into it and God.

[Dravin]

Not quite the same subject. I vaguely recall (so vaguely it may by my imagination) about warnings against cross cultural marriages (which may or may not involved two people of varying races) because marriage is hard enough without a cultural barrier in the way, not because it would preclude exaltation.

That's the closest I've got to what your talking about and it isn't close by far. :)

[Just_A_Guy]

What Dravin said. For some reason, I want to associate such sentiments with President Kimball.

[Wingnut]

The Church has not always been "silent" on this issue, but it does not have an official position on it. President Kimball stated:

Now, the brethren feel that it is not the wisest thing to cross racial lines in dating and marrying. There is no condemnation. We have had some of our fine young people who have crossed the lines. We hope they will be very happy, but experience of the brethren through a hundred years has proved to us that marriage is a very difficult thing under any circumstances and the difficulty increases in interrace marriages. A couple has not committed sin if an Indian boy and a white girl are married, or vice versa. It isn't a transgression like the transgressions of which many are guilty. But it is not expedient. Marriage statistics and our general experience convince us that marriage is not easy. It is difficult when all factors are favorable. The divorces increase constantly, even where the spouses have the same general background of race, religion, finances, education, and otherwise. We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs.

Keep in mind that the reference on this quote is from a BYU Devotional on 5 January 1965.

Also note that he indicates not that interracial marriage is forbidden, but merely that it is discouraged, because people from similar backgrounds tend to have greater success together in general.

[john doe]

Not quite the same subject. I vaguely recall (so vaguely it may by my imagination) about warnings against cross cultural marriages (which may or may not involved two people of varying races) because marriage is hard enough without a cultural barrier in the way, not because it would preclude exaltation.

That's the closest I've got to what your talking about and it isn't close by far. :)

I remember that this was the counsel given in my mission if we were asked. This was in the early '80s. The reference that Wingnut gave is basically the statement written in a 'cliff notes' version of a book we had of answers to give if asked. In those days, especially in America, racial and cultural differences were much different than they are today. I would imagine that today those differences are relatively small in comparison and you would not find nearly as much of a problem as it may have been in the '50s and '60s. These days, interracial couples rarely raise an eyebrow in most civilized parts of the world.

[Wingnut]

In those days, especially in America, racial and cultural differences were much different than they are today. I would imagine that today those differences are relatively small in comparison and you would not find nearly as much of a problem as it may have been in the '50s and '60s.

That's exactly why I emphasized the year in which that quote was given. It makes a lot of sense if you take into consideration that it was given in 1965. :)

[Moksha]

I vaguely recall (so vaguely it may by my imagination) about warnings against cross cultural marriages (which may or may not involved two people of varying races) because marriage is hard enough without a cultural barrier in the way, not because it would preclude exaltation.

:)

Later on the warning shifted to being unequally yoked, and yet for some inexplicable reason they still continued to marry men to women.

What a yoke.

:)

[the Ogre]

What a yoke.

:)

Oh, yeah . . . women are just filled with yokes .

[prisonchaplain]

There is no more Greek nor Hebrew...we are all one in Christ Jesus. It's in Galations, chapter three, I believe.

[the Ogre]

There is no more Greek nor Hebrew...we are all one in Christ Jesus. It's in Galations, chapter three, I believe.

Yup. Gal 3.28: "28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all bone in Christ Jesus."

Thank you, PC.

[Maya]

I think what race you are has no meaning, but as earlier constated, earlier it was difficult to be a mixed couple. And I can write under a statement that even today it is very difficult to be marride across borders of any country. The cultures seem to push away everyone who is not ageeable in everything and pracing the country for everything.

[talisyn]

Thank heavens for the trailblazers. They made life a lot easier for my biracial nieces. My sister met her husband at BYU-Idaho and as far as I know they haven't had any problems. Of course, my brother-in-law being a 280lb black man might have something to do with it

I do not doubt that they are on the path to eternal glory

[HEthePrimate]

I can't imagine why interracial marriage would be an impediment to Celestial glory. We are all God's children. Some (though certainly not all) LDS have an unfortunate tendency to believe everything every LDS prophet has ever said. I think most of us understand, though, that the prophets may have their own opinions and speculations about things, and that not everything they said was necessarily on the Lord's behalf.

Just to be ornery, I'll add that John Taylor is a dead prophet, and I don't recall ever hearing our living prophet, President Monson, say anything against interracial marriage!

HEP

[bytor2112]

I think prior to 1978 it would have been an impediment, now the blessings of the Priesthood are available to all. If as was believed in years past by the brethren that blacks for instance, were less valiant in the pre-existence, then it may have been right to assume this.

I have often wondered if race or different skin color will exist in the eternities or if that was just Heavenly Father's way of testing us, to see if we would truly love one another.

Edited May 23, 2009 by bytor2112

[the Ogre]

. . . Some (though certainly not all) LDS have an unfortunate tendency to believe everything every LDS prophet has ever said . . .

HEP: I think tied into this is that a great many members cherry-pick the doctrines they are the most comfortable with. Many church tenants can be difficult (think about how polygamy still affect some members) and as such, many ignore them or purposely deny them. Personally, over the years I have had the hardest time thinking the RS is an inspired organization, but there are so many women who find happiness there and feel that their testimonies of the gospel have been strengthen there.

I think prior to 1978 it would have been an impediment, now the blessings of the Priesthood are available to all . . .

Right and at that time it was not the race that mattered, but the priesthood. To reach the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom a man must hold the Melchizedek Priesthood, yet those who did not receive the priesthood in this life could receive it through vicarious-work in the temple.

I think the controversies of race were merely reflections of the time those leaders lived.

[the Ogre]

I think what race you are has no meaning . . .

I don't know, I think race is loaded with meaning, but I do not think it gets in the way of exaltation. My Scottish/Jewish heritage is very important to who I am. I make sure my kids love their Korean heritage. I think we are blessed by race and cultural-identity and I am glad it is such an important part of who we are.

What is wrong and artificial is some type of deified race-preference. The L-rd said the Children of Israel were his chosen people, but they were scattered so far and wide that it is likely most people have a bit of their blood coursing though their veins. 2600 years is a long time and IMHO, DNA spreads quickly.

[spiritseeker]

I have to say that no one is full blooded anything. I too believe that now with the Priesthood being available to all worthy male members this issue is a non-issue. We are all God's children. I must say I don't understand the ban to begin with but, for some reason Heavenly Father kept it and now in His timing He has stopped it. And, I am okay with not knowing the why of it all for now. I also have a hard time with the last option in the poll , Racism will have nothing to do with it . That is our hangup not our Heavenly Father's.

[the Ogre]

. . . Racism will have nothing to do with it . That is our hangup not our Heavenly Father's.

I agree with you, but people in interracial relationships often hear otherwise. That is what we are discussing.

[Dravin]

I also have a hard time with the last option in the poll , Racism will have nothing to do with it . That is our hangup not our Heavenly Father's.

I think that was put in there because he feels that if you are a racist such may make it hard to follow Christ. So I went with it, kinda like how any sin if we don't repent of it can have some consequences later on. Of course I inturpeted it through my own lense to mean extreme. I could see being a, "Let's lynch'em all!" member of the KKK or a serious Neo-Nazi could not work really well with following Christ (well as we see it, the KKK does feel, or at least did that they are justified in God's eyes for their behavior). Now if somebody has plenty of charity towards those poor X people but wouldn't want their children to date them or various other 'milder' stereotypes I don't see that as being so much of an issue, we're all flawed after all.

So I took it as malicious racism as opposed to ignorant racism, "Percival, we have our first Negro in class, I was thinking of welcoming him with a basket lunch of watermelon, fried chicken and a 40oz, maybe even a gift of some of that Tupac fellows CDs. How was it they said all right and dog again?"

Am I making any sense whatsoever here? Or am I just babbling?

[the Ogre]

. . . Am I making any sense whatsoever here? Or am I just babbling?

Dravin:

I think you are making loads of sense. I differentiate between the two. I, like everyone else, have done the same. However, there are many who have experienced racism so often they are unwilling to make exceptions equating extreme racism with accidental, incidental racism. I think purging oneself of every type of bigotry is important. We are not supposed to feel ill of another person. It is hard.

Since 1978, in my opinion, there is nothing that would preclude anyone from the celestial kingdom as long as they participated in every temple ordinance. Even those who have blazed the trail before that time and died, their temple work may be done. The biggest problem is that many of the old talks (by Bruce R. and Brigham Young) still haunt the paths of those who are in interracial marriages. I was once encouraged to seek a divorce to amke sure I will be able to receive celestial glory.

I'm divorced now, but that divorce was because of infidelity and desertion. After fourteen years, I think we had overcome all the racists (even though a new one or two would pop-up every year, we just learned to avoid them).

I think Italics and I only wanted some type of clarity.

Aaron the Ogre

[pam]

Am I making any sense whatsoever here? Or am I just babbling?

I'd say you are just babbling.