Does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?

[bytebear]

What spiritual authority do you have besides the testimony of a 14-year-old boy?

How about the testimony of the three witnesses? How about the testimony of the eight witnesses? How about the testimony of the Book of Mormon itself? How about the testimony of the witnesses (both Mormon and non) at the dedication of the Kirtland Temple? How about the testimony of all the prophets that proceeded Smith? How about the testimony of the millions who have been baptised into this church? How about the fulfilled prophecies of past prophets (Isaiah, Daniel, John, etc.)? How about the witness of the Holy Ghost?

[prisonchaplain]

Thanks for clearing that up. I was surprised with what you had posted. I apologize for jumping to conclusions, but I have heard such accusations from evangelicals in the past. I might be my fault for not being more clear with as many EVs as possible, but most are not interested in anything I have to say. I am a dirty cultist, so why would they care?

I suppose with that in mind, should Latter-day Saints be concerned with the judgments of the other faiths who typically have only treated us with animosity? Should we be concerned with "a burden of proof" (especially when we are satisfied)?

If I were convinced, then, no, I wouldn't be concerned. However, I'm hoping my thoughts help you understand why we approach Joseph Smith's revelations with such hesitation. You know what you know, but understand the filters through which we run such claims.

What about Matt 13.57, Mark 6.4, Luke 4.24, and John 4.44? Most opposition to Latter-day Saints is generated here in the US. There are hundreds of people who denounce any evidence of proof without a listen right here in Utah. That should also be a witness as to the possibility to the office Joseph Smith held.

Opposition is not evidence of the veracity of one who claims to be a prophet. Rev. Moon Sun Myun, Jim Jones, even the Dali Lama all receive opposition in their homelands. For the true prophet, Jesus words in the Scriptures you cite do give the comfort that they are in good company. If Joseph Smith was a true prophet, then he can say with spiritual confidence that he was persecuted for righteousness sake. But the persecution itself is not proof of prophethood.

The one thing that irks me the most is that fellow Chr-stians should at least show friendship and brotherhood and yet Chr-stian leadership appears to be as filled with hatred as lay members often are.

Without justifying bad behavior and hostility, it's born out of a particular understanding of some passages in the New Testament that say if a person claims Christ but teaches something different, there is to be no fellowship. IMHO, those passages are misinterpreted, and apply primarily to unrepentent Christian sinners, not those with whom we dispute certain doctrines.

"Burden of proof?"

Before I read on, let me remind you that you ask me to turn away from centuries of church teaching and practice--teaching that, to date, I have found to be true and a blessing to the world. You ask much of me, and so yes, I would ask for compelling evidence that I would make such a drastic change.

You are a great person to talk to and someone I look up to and I do not categorize you with people like aj4u, but even then should you be concerned with evidences and rather than striving for fellowship in Chr-st?

The burden of proof is not so that I will chat or post or befriend you. It's an acceptable request to one who would ask for dramatic change. There is no hinderance from us engaging in gospel conversation. But for me to take your truth claims to heart--that would require a great deal. IMHO, such is not unreasonable.

I might be out of line. I apologize for the passion lodged in my keyboard.

Passion is good. Me thinks you underestimate what the LDS truth claims would require of the dedicated evangelical, if we were to embrace them.

Edited May 27, 2009 by prisonchaplain

[the Ogre]

Your doubting of my sincerity is not my problem; it is yours. I love the Lord and out of respect for Jesus Christ, I will not call anyone a name such as troll or judge anyone. I can even see all on the forum as greater than myself, but I can only live up to the light that God shows me. I don't operate according to your schedule or as fast as you think I should. I have been very patient with you. Your answers to my questions just don't cut it. You think that I am in deception, because I don't agree with your position. I don't agree because you haven't been able to back it up Scripturally and spiritually from the Bible. What is to stop anyone from claiming to be a prophet and lead others astray like happened to me. How do you know you're not being had like I was? What spiritual authority do you have besides the testimony of a 14-year-old boy?

There has to be something in the Bible that backs the coming authority. The OT, for example, is replete with verses leading up to the coming of Christ Jesus. What, for instance, leads up to the gospel needing restored? Just because of some translation errors in the KJV of the Bible and different denominations coming out of the Catholic Church. It just doesn’t make sense. Why would anyone ask what organization to join? We shouldn’t be asking the Lord what church, organization, group or denomination to join; we should just join ourselves to Christ, and by doing that, we are automatically a part of His body. He only has one church and one body. I am part of it. I am His child by faith, and there is no devil in hell that can take that away from me. The devil is the accuser of the saints. I know who I am in Christ. Just because you say I am not sincere doesn’t make it so. It doesn’t matter how many say I am insincere. The Lord is the majority. If He doesn’t want me posting on here, He will close the door, because He is the one who is in control. Of course, I say all this by faith and in love. Remember, faithful are the wounds of a friend but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

My name is Aaron [the Ogre]. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am taking this opportunity to bear my testimony to you. J-sus Chr-st is my L-rd and S-vior. After years of service in my church in every capacity available to me, I can say that my belief in the S-vior has increased to the point that it would be impossible for me to deny. I have felt the burning in my bosom and witnessed miracles; the healing of the sick, the blessed peace of passing, and the joyous salvation of those who were lost. I have witnessed the glory of the temple and have felt the gratitude of the dead I served. I know there is no salvation but through the grace of my G-d as I explained to you according to Eph 2. 8-10. I also know that the S-vior holds out H-s hand to those across the globe with love. I bear witness that H- is my L-rd.

I am also bearing my testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith. Without the work of his life, I would be among the worst of sinners. I would not be a Chr-stian. I would have returned to the religion of my ancestors: Judaism. I would be a drunk and most likely would be serving time. My conversion came by reading the Book of Mormon and taking the challenge as it is stated seeking to know for my self of the truthfullness of H-s work here on the earth. I received my answer and know that I am nothing. I am wasted. I am unimportant in this world and that my salvation through J-sus Chr-st can only be as per the revelations of modern prophets. And yet the fire burned in my breast and tears coursed down my cheeks. The proof of this authrity is shown in Eph 4.11&12. I know Joseph is one of those the L-rd our G-d gave us to reveal what is true and what is false and to cast a light on the iron-rod we are to follow. Joseph Smith gave me a path to follow. I bear witness that both G-d the F-ther and J-sus appeared to a very young and immature fourteen year old boy who wondered as I have which church is true.

I know both the light and I know the nightmare beneath. I know the love of my S-vior and the love of the All-Cr-ator. I have received revelation for the welfare of my family, my children, and my service in the church. I have heard the voice of the W-tness whisper peace and love in my heart.

I do not expect you to believe a word I say. I do not want you to have faith in me, but to have faith in the only man to overcome all, MY BROTHER J-SUS CHR-ST.

My brother and S-vior also knows who I am. I am a weak man who cannot stand those who attack H-s honor, H-s condescension, and H-s blessedness. I am a weak man who, when not in school working on my theses "the religious dialogue between congregations in the urban environment" I am a proud man who reads, writes, and posts on religious forums. My pride and arrogance leaves me judgmental and that is my cross to bear, but I know who you are. I know your kind and I know the confusion you would spread. I will always face those who oppose the work to be done even if I am a poor, ignorant, savage servant who is wracked with the pains of pride, anger, and dissatisfaction.

My education has always told me to be suspicious of organizations and social-structures as corrupt and oppressive (especially religions) and I will say that this is nearly always true, which led me to need to know: "is there a church for me? Is there a church that defies what has proven to be historically oppressive and soul-crushing?" I received my answer and it is my answer alone. I cannot preach to you about what you should do, but for me I know that the church Joseph restored to the earth is the only true church on the planet.

I close my testimony by saying the Bible is the word of G-d, the Book of Mormon is the most true book ever printed, and that Thomas S. Monson is my president today who leads my church with the authority granted him by G-d the F-ther and H-s Son, J-sus Chr-st who died for the sins of man. I pray that I will be worthy of my S-vior's grace and that I will be able to partake in the atonement.

You may doubt my faith, but I love the work of G-d.

I say this in the name of J-sus Chr-st, amen.

Edited May 27, 2009 by the Ogre

[the Ogre]

PC:

I apologize for doubting your sincerity.

Aaron

[the Ogre]

. . . all of the prophets and apostels are equally important . . . In other words, I don't see what neede to be restored.

Only one prophet is important at a time and that is the one alive today.

As per restoration, what you can not see is as obvious to me as an eighteen-wheeler careening down the wrong side of the highway right at me on a windy, rainy night. I can not help your night-blindness. I can only see the semi.

[MikeUpton]

You think that I am in deception, because I don't agree with your position.

No, I say you are in deception because you say one thing and do another. You come in the guise of sincerity and proceed to attack the church. You claim we have never answered your questions, when regardless of whether you do not like the answers, we have, and you refuse to approach this directly. It is your tendency to pretend nothing has happened when it has, that causes me to note such behavior as deceptive.

Now, take the behavior of our friend PrisonChaplain. He is sincere. I do not believe for a second he carries a hidden agenda, although he believes what he will differently, he will attempt to give an honest discourse of how he really feels if you ask him. He really is who he says he is, and really has the respect for us as members of the church that he says he does, regardless of whether his beliefs differ. That is honest and correct. It is okay to have your doubts about whether or not the church is true, but it is not okay to lie to yourself, or to others. I recommend him as a model of sincerity, that you might learn from his behavior what it means to be sincere.

[Islander]

PC:

For a very long time I worked helping people realize that there was nothing to fear but fear itself, as the quote goes. If one looks at Christianity from the "other side" for example it is seen as a false religion, a failed religion and a flawed religion. For everybody else in the globe the notion that a deity will come down from heaven and allow himself to be killed is completely counter intuitive and ridiculous, to say the least. It would never happen. It is non-nonsensical and incomprehensible to them. This is why most of our proselyting in polytheistic countries or even in the ME will be fraught with bitter disappointment.

For some, as AJ above, they are not willing to even entertain the possibility that the claim is true. He is not willing to pray sincerely for he is ALREADY convinced that he knows the truth. That position is not biblical, he can not document it or sustain it but he holds on to his belief that he already knows and there is nothing else to know.

Imagine if we find more letter from the Apostle Paul!!!! He surely wrote extensively since he also traveled quite a bit across Asia Minor and the congregations. But we have just a few letters. Imagine ALL the scholars and others agree they are authentic. Would you accept them? What would be the criteria for acceptance, religious/theological/ spiritual/political? Who would be in charge of voting or whatever to incorporate it into the cannon?

Most people in the West grew up within a Judeo-Christian society, with values, laws and norms driven by such traditions. Just about everybody heard about "the bible" since the 11 century. So more than a true witness of Christ most (I am not saying all) Christian have adopted a tacit acceptance and later a belief in Christ and the bible but it is not rooted in the original tradition of Christianity, of the Apostles and prophets, of revelations and miracles. In fact. for the last 2000 years, clergy have but declared heresy on anybody that made such a claim as visions, revelation and angels. Until very recently the notion that God can do miracles by the hands of His servants was not the subjects of sermons in evangelical circles.

The claim that Joseph made was earth-shaking. The Book of Mormon is simply a work that Joseph could not have cooked on his own or even with help in 1830. Thousands of forgeries from the 1-4th century AD are around and were all rejected. We can spot them. The Book of Mormon sets the bar so high that the ONLY alternative is to reject it from the outset. The encouragement is simple but powerful; to ask God, the Eternal Father in the name of Christ if the record is true.

But some WILL NOT do it. They fear the possibility that they had been misled, misinformed; they think of the countless hours of study and effort involved. The emotional toll seems so great that it needs be the WE are wrong. No matter the fulfillment of prophesy, no matter the witnesses, no matter the millions that testify of this truth. Just as the Israelite afflicted by the serpents in the desert:

And he did straiten them in the wilderness with his rod; for they hardened their hearts, even as ye have; and the Lord straitened them because of their iniquity. He sent fiery flying serpents among them; and after they were bitten he prepared a way that they might be healed; and the labor which they had to perform was to look; and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished. 1 Ne 17:41

Edited May 27, 2009 by Islander

[bytebear]

Before I read on, let me remind you that you ask me to turn away from centuries of church teaching and practice--teaching that, to date, I have found to be true and a blessing to the world. You ask much of me, and so yes, I would ask for compelling evidence that I would make such a drastic change.

No one is asking you to turn away from centuries of church teachings and practice. In fact, I believe you are evangelical, (and if I am wrong, I appologize), you have already turned away from centuries of teachings and practice by rejecting the Roman Catholic beliefs and practices. I assume you do not follow the Pope, or have a formal liturgy? Yes, a lot will be asked of you, but as the scriptures say, your yolk will be light if you have faith. The real question is, will it be worth it to find out? But from a practical standpoint, faith and worship in the LDS Church are not foreign to outsiders. I doubt you would recognize an LDS service from a protestant service, except the addition of scriptural references outside the Bible. Have you watched some of the conference sermons on YouTube? Do you find them so foreign to your own thoughts and beliefs?

Edited May 27, 2009 by bytebear

[spiritseeker]

All I can say is the ONLY way you can now that what we are saying is true is to pray. Yet , you have closed your heart to that because you fear that the devil will mislead you. So there is no way for us to help you. No matter how many have offered you answers you just answer it by saying ; "We didn't answer it!" I would also like to say the way you speak of our beloved Prophet Joseph Smith in such deragatory manners as referring to him as "A 14 yr. old boy" is insulting to us. You have come to our home and insulted us. How would you feel if we came to your evangelical sites and made light of your faith? This is one of my pet peeves it happens on facebook and especially you tube where we leave an endearing comment on one of our(LDS) videos and we get emails from "born-again" Christians with the same arrogance I feel when I read your post here... We as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe in freedom of religion. Let a man worship who or what he wishes. All we ask for is the same courtesy from others. Is that to much to ask for? I just feel no matter what we say you won't listen... If you are trying to "convert" us let it go brother you are preaching to the choir!

[glow_inthe_dark_girl]

I don't know who did you asked the questions, because there's nothing that I hadn't heard about on your post.

There are some verses in the bible that seem to contradict from each other and this doesn't mean to me) that bible is clashing with itself, its just that some of this parts needed an explanation which Joseph Smith gives, ordered by God.

and about the Gal. verse, I don't really understand why a lot of chrisitans from other churches use it to make a reference on Moroni, it would apply perfectly if the gospel that Moroni taught was evil or anti-christian which is not the case, the BoM as u can read in the front cover is another testament of Jesus Christ.

ps. I invite u to pray sincerely.

[Snow]

Most tell me it does not, but some say it does or it may. So I did my own research on the topic that has led to many questions that no one has been able to answer for me. Instead, I have seen a thread closed, and I have been accused of being a troll, hardening my heart, being insincere, of not interpreting Scripture correctly and you name it.

I don't have a problem with new truth or restored truth, but it has to pass certain criteria; for instance, if anything clashes with he Bible, that sends up a red flag for me,

Luke 3 clashes with Matthew 1. Which of the two sends up a red flag for you.

Note: both are wrong.

but if I can see that it clarifies and confirms or reinforces Bible truth i am for it 100%. No one should be able to judge someone about his or her motive. Paul was dead set against Christianity until the Lord dealt with him and he became one of the best apologists in the Bible.

Paul wasn't "dead set against Christianity." There was no such thing as Christianity. Jesus was a Jew, Paul was a Jew. Peter, James and John were all Jews. Christianity was a movement that started decades after Christ's death.

I have spoken to Mormons on a one to one and they haven't been able to answer it my questions.

For example, I am already a born-again Christian. Why would I want to trade the eternal security or life I already have for a religion that says I cannot know if I have it right now.

You think that God will unsave you if you join the Church of Jesus Christ?

Can you explain how that works or cite some scriptural references?

I cannot be ignorant of the Devil's devices he can appear as an angel of light and impersonate Jesus and or God without any problems to fool the human mind with all kinds of feelings and signs. We are dealing with supernatural forces. Do you realize or believe that too? Paul even warns that we should beware and consider accursed any that bring another gospel than that which we have heard already. Gal 1: 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Are you telling me to ignore Paul's words of wisdom because of the testimony of a 14 year old boy? I am sincere, and I think these questions are valid and constructive and need to be answered in order for me to make an informed decision that concerns my eternal soul! I wish you the best, but I would like these answered. PS. Do you believe the KJV is translated correctly? If not, do you know where there might be translation errors in that version? Take you time and answer them one at a time, but I have other questions, but this is a good place to start. Thanks, Aj4u

Oh please - do you think you are talking to idiots?

Do you know what "begging the question" means?

[Hemidakota]

Perhaps PC, it is time for a greater change where your faith will be like that of Paul of Taurus.

[blusun7]

AJ4U and others who need answers.Im gonna lay it down for you all. Im mean no disrespect but Why dont we see how amos a prophet became a prophet.

Stop quoting scripture here and there. Read the whole Chapter and apply. I get sick of seeing people twist words he and there.Just read the the whole Chapter and stop giving the climax through verses. When you read a book to someone do you read the whole thing or only the good parts and explain the rest of the story. Come on grow up.

Amos 3:7

Surely the lord God will do nothing,but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

NOt your servants. You dont choose who is a prophet the Lord. has already done that.YOu job is to listen and obey as well as have faith.

Regarding Prophets

Amos 7:14

Amos talking to Amaziah after being told to leave for the prophesy and sermons.

Then answered Amos and said to Amaziah,I was no prophet,neither was i a prophets son;but i was and herdman,and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:

Do you need more regarding Prophets..

Question??

When you pray what are you asking for? An answer Yes, but lets cut the bull and be honest cause what we really want is revelation.

YOu can believe that god can give you revelation when you pray but you cant believe he can revelate to people he has chosen to lead his church.

Maybe it is to keep people like us from argueing over these subjects,commandments and ordinances. Humans ruin everything. Why do you think we have a savior?????????????

Cause you and i are imperfect.

i can go all day with this . I mean seem like i have an attitude but i dont. I just to sugarcoat the point.I get to it and leave.

Sure there is more but i thought this was important.

[aj4u]

PC:

I apologize for doubting your sincerity.

Aaron

That was a sincere post. Thanks you sharing it. I have no doubt you are a Mormon. And I am sure you too will receive the same reward has the prophet Joseph Smith.

[Hemidakota]

It is time now to make greater changes in our own lives than later when we may not have that opportunity.

[aj4u]

All I can say is the ONLY way you can now that what we are saying is true is to pray. Yet , you have closed your heart to that because you fear that the devil will mislead you. So there is no way for us to help you. No matter how many have offered you answers you just answer it by saying ; "We didn't answer it!" I would also like to say the way you speak of our beloved Prophet Joseph Smith in such deragatory manners as referring to him as "A 14 yr. old boy" is insulting to us. You have come to our home and insulted us.

I didn't say anything disrespectful. At the time he was 14 years old. Is that not true? If you are insulted, it is because you choose to be. I had already mentioned you can cut down what i believe. As long as there is respect for one another. I have not called you names or judged you as being insincere. have I? I haven't even said anything bad about what you believe. Again, I say if you are really insulted and offended, I apolpogize no offense was intended personally to anyone, but it is your choice to remain in it. I would like you think about this Bible verse. "Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them." Edited May 27, 2009 by aj4u

[the Ogre]

I didn't say anything disrespectful. At the time he was 14 years old. Is that not true? If you are insulted, it is because you choose to be. I had already mentioned you can cut down what i believe. As long as there is respect for one another. I have not called you names or judged you as being insincere. have I? I haven't even said anything bad about what you believe. Again, I say if you are really insulted and offended, I apolpogize no offense was intended personally to anyone, but it is your choice to remain in it. I would like you think about this Bible verse. "Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them."

Okay, then learn something: what you said was deeply insulting. You have said it a couple of times. Try this: 1 Sam 3.1-10; the prophet Samuel sets this precedent--he was younger (most likely 13 years old). Do you question Samuel's testimony and calling as a prophet? If Samuel could be called as a child, then why not Joseph.

[spiritseeker]

Just to clarify AJ it is not what you said it is the manner and context which you make the statement. As if Joseph Smith was just a 14 yr. old boy. To us as LDS members he is a Prophet of God and has done more for mankind than anyone other than Jesus himself. We know you don't believe that but we do and this is our "home" please show us some respect is all I am saying.

[john doe]

AJ, I appreciate your trying to communicate with us. The problem as I see it is that you don't bother to actually stop to talk. You keep moving the topic around without acknowledging that people are trying to address your questions. Every post you make you change the subject. This pattern of shotgun posting makes it difficult to carry on a conversation. Why not find one topic, ask a question about that topic, then actually have a meaningful conversation with those who respond? Your continual moving of the target makes it frustrating for people to have a meaningful discourse.

[aj4u]

No, I say you are in deception because you say one thing and do another. You come in the guise of sincerity and proceed to attack the church. You claim we have never answered your questions, when regardless of whether you do not like the answers, we have, and you refuse to approach this directly. It is your tendency to pretend nothing has happened when it has, that causes me to note such behavior as deceptive.

What have I said and then did another thing than what I said?

What do you think sincerity is?

Who gave you the right to judge me?

What has happened that I pretend hasn't?

What do you call behavior that fails to back up judgmental statements against another's character?

If you cannot back this up you owe an apology!

I do not attack the church; I am a child of God; therefore, that makes me a part of His church.

:)

[aj4u]

Just to clarify AJ it is not what you said it is the manner and context which you make the statement. As if Joseph Smith was just a 14 yr. old boy. To us as LDS members he is a Prophet of God and has done more for mankind than anyone other than Jesus himself. We know you don't believe that but we do and this is our "home" please show us some respect is all I am saying.

Okay, I will not use that term again.

[pam]

Let's go back to a previous question asked by Justice to aj4u. As of yet I have seen it unanswered.

All I want is for him to answer my question, "Is baptism necessary?"

[prisonchaplain]

PC:

For a very long time I worked helping people realize that there was nothing to fear but fear itself, as the quote goes. If one looks at Christianity from the "other side" for example it is seen as a false religion, a failed religion and a flawed religion. For everybody else in the globe the notion that a deity will come down from heaven and allow himself to be killed is completely counter intuitive and ridiculous, to say the least. It would never happen. It is non-nonsensical and incomprehensible to them. This is why most of our proselyting in polytheistic countries or even in the ME will be fraught with bitter disappointment. . . .

In so many ways this...and your entire post could be offered by the generic Christian to those that aren't. The irony is, you offer such an impassioned testament to one I believe you would consider a fellow Christian. Do not misunderstand, irony is not necessarily bad. In fact, we Pentecostals faced the same uncomfortable position, particularly in the early years of the revival. "What do you mean you're FULL gospel--are you implying that we are not??? What do you mean your Spirit-filled--are you saying we don't have the Spirit???" We too offered a restoration of sorts, and implored our non-pentecostal bretheren to taste and see that it is good.

So, be assured, I track with your sense of commitment, and your belief that so many Christians could be experiencing so much more.

[aj4u]

It is time now to make greater changes in our own lives than later when we may not have that opportunity.

Yes, that I agree with!

[prisonchaplain]

No one is asking you to turn away from centuries of church teachings and practice. In fact, I believe you are evangelical, (and if I am wrong, I appologize), you have already turned away from centuries of teachings and practice by rejecting the Roman Catholic beliefs and practices. I assume you do not follow the Pope, or have a formal liturgy? Yes, a lot will be asked of you, but as the scriptures say, your yolk will be light if you have faith. The real question is, will it be worth it to find out? But from a practical standpoint, faith and worship in the LDS Church are not foreign to outsiders. I doubt you would recognize an LDS service from a protestant service, except the addition of scriptural references outside the Bible. Have you watched some of the conference sermons on YouTube? Do you find them so foreign to your own thoughts and beliefs?

If the Protestant Reformation was radical--and it was, the LDS restoration multiplies that many times over. Yes, evangelicals worship quite differently from Catholics, and we have some significant differences in doctrine. Within evangelicalism, we pentecostals worship even more differently. BUT, the lion's share of our teachings remain common with Rome, and most of us (Catholics and Evangelicals) expect to see each other in the same heaven. I'll grant you though that what your church has done is not totally knew, but simply a much stronger degree of what has indeed happened in the past. BTW, I probably do need to choose a conference talk or two to listen to.