What causes people to be extremly ant-mormon?

[prisonchaplain]

Mike, I appreciate the nuances your bring out in relation to Jesus, Satan, and the Heavenly Father. It'll be lost on most of us non-LDS though. I believe you know, but let me spell out our understanding...

1. God is absolutely distinct from creation. He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three persons, but one being. And God alone is eternal. There is no other being that is equal to Him, nor can there be. Again, after all, only He is eternal.

2. Satan and the other angels were made by God. They may never perish, but they had a beginning. They have their powers, but are subject to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

3. We humans were also created. We had a beginning. Creation, in our minds, assumes an absolute beginning. Thus the teaching of creation ex nihilo--out of nothing.

And yes, we shall become glorified, like him in many ways, seeing as he sees, etc. However, if for no other reason than that we had a beginning, and were created by God, we will never become Him, never be equal to Him, never become part of the Godhead.

So, with these presuppositions, it's really hard to overcome the shock of hearing that Satan was a brother of Jesus, or that humans can becomes Gods. The reason, then, that anti-Mormons seem so unfair, and so out of context, is that there are so many presuppositions we non-LDS have that counter your theology. It's truly difficult to explain it all, and then offer a thoroughly objective, fair and clear explanation of your beliefs.

AND...if I'm convinced your church is heretical, and that your teachings are dangerous, why should I bother? If I'm simply trying to protect my people, and perhaps win over a few of your fence sitters, why not simply highlight the most sensational doctrinal difference, sans the nuances, and proclaim how shocking and wrong they are?

Now...in fairness...this happens somewhat on both sides. "Evangelicals do not believe in continuing revelation. They are bibolators--worshiping the Bible, rather than the God of the Bible, they believe you can continue to sin and do whatever you want, and still go to heaven, etc. etc."

Fortunately, sites like LDS.net help us all become more knowledgeable and empathetic towards each other. :-)

[the Ogre]

Fortunately, sites like LDS.net help us all become more knowledgeable and empathetic towards each other. :-)

PC, you are absolutely correct. Sites like this allow for civil discussion. <<the ogre coughs though his covering hands "occam's razor" and excuses his allergies>> I suppose the biggest problem with the idea for civil discussion is that many of the posters on this site are not interested in being civil, they are only interested in using language like: liar, false-prophet, deception, etc. etc. etc..

Why should anyone expect civility when none is offered?

Edited May 30, 2009 by the Ogre

[prisonchaplain]

Perhaps they shouldn't EXPECT it. But...love your enemies...give food and drink to them, thus heaping hot coals on their heads. I take all that to mean that if I am in the truth, and show Christ's agape love to the undeserving, then my acts will burn their souls with conviction, perhaps leading them to repentence. Otherwise, my Father's anger will burn them with judgment, for having harmed his child.

[the Ogre]

. . . show Christ's agape love to the undeserving . . .

PC, on a different thread and maybe when you have time, could you explain "agape"? It is not a term used by most Latter-day Saints, but it has come up in quite a few recent threads. To say the least, it is a bit jargonistic.

Just as a courtesy. I know what it means and implies, but many do not.

[Dravin]

Well, ones mouth that is agape is wide open, so I'd assume Christ's agape love would be wide and encompassing.

However a quick Google (gotta love Google) turns up Agape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, seems my assumptions was off the mark in some ways but on it in others, wonder what the connection is between the above usage of 'mouth agape' and the 'Greek' usage if any.

Where's an etymologist when you need one.

[Moksha]

What causes people to be anti-mormon?

Lack of fiber in their diet, which can affect other areas of their life as well.

:)

[MikeUpton]

What causes people to be anti-mormon?

Lack of fiber in their diet, which can affect other areas of their life as well.

:)

no laugh button, but a more than adequate response.

[MikeUpton]

Mike, I appreciate the nuances your bring out in relation to Jesus, Satan, and the Heavenly Father. It'll be lost on most of us non-LDS though. I believe you know, but let me spell out our understanding...

Thanks PC. I appreciate the well thought out and gentle answers. It would be very difficult for me as an LDS to explain in this case then, exactly why the intended effect of that statement is so inappropriate (while not necessarily the statement itself). It seems more wrapped up in fundamental belief systems than I'd realized.

The effect the statement is used for is uncalled for and uncouth. From far back as I remember my church has taught me about Christ, the sacrifice he made, has taught us to worship him, reverence his teachings, love him. We are every bit in awe and wonder of him, I believe, as any other Christian sect might be. We do believe literally that as it says in John 14:16, he is "the away, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by (him)". We just do not happen to believe he is the exact same person as the Father, but literally the son of God. Its pretty much the only difference in our view that I can think of.

Like you said though, it would be difficult to explain to someone. Impossible to explain, I think, without the assistance of the Holy Ghost.

PC, you are absolutely correct. Sites like this allow for civil discussion. <<the ogre coughs though his covering hands "occam's razor" and excuses his allergies>> I suppose the biggest problem with the idea for civil discussion is that many of the posters on this site are not interested in being civil, they are only interested in using language like: liar, false-prophet, deception, etc. etc. etc..

Why should anyone expect civility when none is offered?

I have a tendency to respond like this to certain people when I think civility would be lost on them and undeserved. Especially because some people try to manipulate you by their expectation that you would feel compelled to be civil. (although a reaction to the opposite is still a reaction more than an action.) I do not know whether I am correct in this, but I do remember Christ was for the most part gentle, but very sharp with certain others who he felt needed it. I'll admit I was somewhat hard, for example on AJ in the other thread he posted on book of Mormon contradictions with the bible, but mainly because I felt a need to point out exactly what he was doing. I have no real ill feeling towards him and I feel that I can say I do love him in the manner Christ affords one through his grace to all those who pray for charity.

Edited May 30, 2009 by MikeUpton

[glow_inthe_dark_girl]

not knowing the gospel of Jesus Christ, because if they really lived according to the gospel they wouldn't be making stuff up.

[Jim108]

Here are just a few reason why people are anti mormon. The saying goes that you never know your own reputation. So here it goes, this is what the nonmormon people are saying.

1. The born again christians believe that you believe in a false Jesus.

2. Mormonism = cult

3. Joseph Smith was a con artist and made up this religion.

4. Mormons believe in plural Gods.

5. Mormons mimimize Jesus

6. The whole "we are the true church" is insulting to other religious beliefs.

7. Mormons still believe in polygamy even if not practiced on Earth.

8. Mormons believe Men and Women are not equal. ie the womans exaltation is dependent on her man.

9. Mormons believe that some will one day becom a god and populate another planet.

10. Mormon missionaries withold information from prospective members. ie you don't get the full picture until after you join.

11. Mormons baptize the dead.

12. Mormons have secret handshakes and pass words for entry to heaven.

13. Mormons are not nice to neighbors who are not mormons. ie a little boy is not invited to a friends birthday party because the party is only for his mormon friends. He watches the party from afar and cries. The little boy does not understand.

14. Mormon only Boy Scout Troops. I know when my boy was in scouting any boy of any religion could join. When we moved to Utah we were told by our district that he could only join a non mormon troop. Very true and very ugly.

15. Mormons put unhealthy pressure on the young members with regards to sexuallity. Masturbation is forbidden and normal sexual desires are buried. All healthy sixteen year old males masturbate and think of sex. It is normal and healthy. The guilt they build is overwhelming. It is no wonder that sexual crimes in Utah are high.

16. The African American racism by the LDS church is still painfull to think about.

17. When looking for a house to buy in Utah, we were told by a neighbor bluntly that we would not fit in here because, you see, we are all mormons. wink wink

18. It is very hard on nonmormon kids to go to school in a mostly mormon school. The teasing is non ending and they are excluded and are lonely. I have known people who have moved just to get their kid into a more diversified school.

This list can go on, but I think you get it. Most nonmormons living in Utah have a similar story to tell.

Now look, I was not sure if I should have posted this because it is a shot of reality and it is not nice. Your nonmormon friends would never tell you these things, but I wanted to let you know what the nonmormon community thinks. I would like to see a list of what your position is regarding us. I would like to know my communities reputation. I am sure we have a lot of dirty laundry too.

Since being on this site I have learned that much of the above is not true and some is true and some I am still don't know, but this is what people think. I do know that we need to do a better job on both sides to love each other.

I know your going to eat me up so. Go ahead, fire away. I can take it.

[Jim108]

not knowing the gospel of Jesus Christ, because if they really lived according to the gospel they wouldn't be making stuff up.

Could you give some example of what is being made up.

[pam]

The only thing is Jim...we could probably have named all of those ourselves. Most of those are pretty common knowledge that that is what people think of us. Most of those are what we would call Mormon Myths.

[the Ogre]

Now look, I was not sure if I should have posted this because it is a shot of reality and it is not nice. Your nonmormon friends would never tell you these things, but I wanted to let you know what the nonmormon community thinks. I would like to see a list of what your position is regarding us. I would like to know my communities reputation. I am sure we have a lot of dirty laundry too.

Do you know what is interesting Jim? We know. These are the jumping points for people who have a issues with the church. Many of us have read the anti-mormon websites and publications thoroughly. It is good to bring up those points.

I do not think someone who have been told those beliefs is automatically an anti. I also do not believe think all of those are a lie. Some of them are true.

Most are twisted versions of the truth. Keep inquiring. I think my only request is acknowledging that we are articulating our positions, not necessarily trying to convert you (that is up to G-d).

[Jim108]

I am glad you have taken it well. I agree that we need to love each other better. I know that I am ashamed of some of the things we have said and done. It is not a one way street. Uglyness goes full circle.

[Jim108]

...and so does love.

[ztodd]

Love.

Seriously, we may not agree with the method but most genuinely wish to save Mormons from hell fire and eternal torment. It's like missionary work (taken to the extreme in many cases) but they believe they have a better way, the right way, and wish to share it. I imagine most people would be quick to point out the flaws of L Ron Hubbard and dianetics if their family and friends joined the church of Scientology.

If there are some that do it out of love, I appreciate them their intentions, although there is a better way.

But I think probably most do not do it out of love, but out of spite.

[Seanette]

Based on my own experience of anti-Mormons, any "love" that may exist is pretty much hidden and drowned out by all the venom and anger.

[Palerider]

Jim...as a LDS member living in a Baptist Community...you have not told me anything I don't already know.....around here ...if your not Baptist you get overlooked for things.....they take care of each other...

I could make a list of things my kids have gone thru when they were in school....and it would be lengthy...

[prisonchaplain]

PC, on a different thread and maybe when you have time, could you explain "agape"? It is not a term used by most Latter-day Saints, but it has come up in quite a few recent threads. To say the least, it is a bit jargonistic.

Just as a courtesy. I know what it means and implies, but many do not.

Short version: AGAPE is Greek for Christ's love. It is the highest, purest form of love, that offered towards one who has not merited it. It is distinct from PHILEO love, which is brotherly. We love those who love and fellowship with us. AEROS is the third type of love, and is reserved properly for married couples.

[ztodd]

Here are just a few reason why people are anti mormon. The saying goes that you never know your own reputation. So here it goes, this is what the nonmormon people are saying.

...

1. The born again christians believe that you believe in a false Jesus.

Why?

2. Mormonism = cult

Why do they think this?

3. Joseph Smith was a con artist and made up this religion.

Why do they think this?

4. Mormons believe in plural Gods.

Yeah, so? Well, actually maybe it's more accurate to say we believe in plural gods with a lowercase g. But there is only one true God who we worship.

5. Mormons mimimize Jesus

Why do they think this?

6. The whole "we are the true church" is insulting to other religious beliefs.

I can understand why they would feel insulted at first, but not after studying about it some more. It's really one of the only 3 positions that any church can take- we are the true church, or we are preparing people for the true church, or we are a false church (leading people away from the true church).

7. Mormons still believe in polygamy even if not practiced on Earth.

This is the toughest one for me. Just gotta go by faith for now.

8. Mormons believe Men and Women are not equal. ie the womans exaltation is dependent on her man.

Umm, no.

9. Mormons believe that some will one day becom a god and populate another planet.

What do they think we'll be doing in heaven? Sitting on a cloud for eternity? They think God doesn't have the power or authority to help us become like Him?

10. Mormon missionaries withold information from prospective members. ie you don't get the full picture until after you join.

How is this different than every other church or organization? And why is it necessarily a bad thing? You gotta give the milk before the meat, right?

edit (added): Actually, I think we don't get the full picture until long after we have died.

11. Mormons baptize the dead.

Actually, we baptize for the dead. How do they reconcile the commandment for all to be baptized with the fact that so many were not able to receive baptism in this life?

12. Mormons have secret handshakes and pass words for entry to heaven.

Not entirely true. The things we learn in the temple are not to be publicly discussed, but they are filled with symbolism and deeper meaning that we need to discover.

13. Mormons are not nice to neighbors who are not mormons. ie a little boy is not invited to a friends birthday party because the party is only for his mormon friends. He watches the party from afar and cries. The little boy does not understand.

Unfortunate, but why is this deserving of anti-mormon attacks? How is it different than other churches and organizations? (Not trying to justify it- I know this should not be done)

14. Mormon only Boy Scout Troops. I know when my boy was in scouting any boy of any religion could join. When we moved to Utah we were told by our district that he could only join a non mormon troop. Very true and very ugly.

See above

15. Mormons put unhealthy pressure on the young members with regards to sexuallity. Masturbation is forbidden and normal sexual desires are buried. All healthy sixteen year old males masturbate and think of sex. It is normal and healthy. The guilt they build is overwhelming. It is no wonder that sexual crimes in Utah are high.

I've never considered it normal and healthy- why do you? I guess it has a lot to do with our upbringing.

I would not be too quick to attribute sexual crimes to a high moral standard.

16. The African American racism by the LDS church is still painfull to think about.

I admit in some areas there are still problems. But again, without trying to excuse ourselves, is this not also a problem in other churches and organizations?

17. When looking for a house to buy in Utah, we were told by a neighbor bluntly that we would not fit in here because, you see, we are all mormons. wink wink

wink wink, as in, just kidding? Why even throw this in here?

18. It is very hard on nonmormon kids to go to school in a mostly mormon school. The teasing is non ending and they are excluded and are lonely. I have known people who have moved just to get their kid into a more diversified school.

See #13. I also have heard of mormons moving away from Utah because they're sick of the exclusiveness there. The people aren't perfect, but the gospel is. So if you're looking for perfection, study the gospel, not the people. :)

This list can go on, but I think you get it. Most nonmormons living in Utah have a similar story to tell.

Now look, I was not sure if I should have posted this because it is a shot of reality and it is not nice. Your nonmormon friends would never tell you these things, but I wanted to let you know what the nonmormon community thinks. I would like to see a list of what your position is regarding us. I would like to know my communities reputation. I am sure we have a lot of dirty laundry too.

I try not to stereotype. :)

Since being on this site I have learned that much of the above is not true and some is true and some I am still don't know, but this is what people think. I do know that we need to do a better job on both sides to love each other.

I know your going to eat me up so. Go ahead, fire away. I can take it.

Nah, just mostly wanting to know why. :)

Edited May 30, 2009 by ztodd

[the Ogre]

14. Mormon only Boy Scout Troops. I know when my boy was in scouting any boy of any religion could join. When we moved to Utah we were told by our district that he could only join a non mormon troop. Very true and very ugly.

I have heard this rumor. It's not true, but the rumor persists. The church never disallows non-member boys except in very rare occasions.

I was a scoutmaster in LDS wards twice. I have helped seventeen boys earn their eagle scout. Four of those boys were not LDS. Many of the young men I have worked with are not LDS. I did have one bad experience with a mother of a young man who was not LDS. We asked him to no longer come with us because he would bring alcohol from home to campouts and get drunk, he used profanity incessantly, and he would interrupt prayers and start profaning G-d. This was hard to deal with. The bishop and the Stake-president made the decision. I support them, but I sometimes feel bad about it. That young man is now serving time up at the point of the mountain. I hope he is not using his experience as a reason that society deserted him, but he was so angry. I saw him when he graduated highschool (my oldest' same class and year) and he and his mother berated me, my parents, my brothers, and my grand-parents until a UVU-cop had to step in.

I know there are nightmare stories that non-members have in the jello-belt. I do not know what I can do about it. Probably nothing except try to be a good neighbor. I try. I am as direct off-line as on. I did cheer when the cops cleared out the meth-lab across the street, but those guys were all inactive members. What can you do? Some people are looking for excuses. All I can do is be the best I can and hope for the best.

Edited May 30, 2009 by the Ogre

[prisonchaplain]

1. The born again christians believe that you believe in a false Jesus. Why?

It's been discussed...Jesus as spirit-brother of Satan, as having been created by the Father, as an entirely separate being from the Father. It may be that such differences are not damning--but they are substantial.

2. Mormonism = cult Why do they think this?

The bottom line is that your teachings are substantially different on matters deemed "core" or "basic." So, for evangelicals the term is doctrinal, more than sociological (i.e. Jim Jones, or any # of mind control groups)

3. Joseph Smith was a con artist and made up this religion. Why do they think this?

His teachings were different from evangelical churches, and he said we were all wrong. Better to think him a con than that evangelicalism is apostate.

4. Mormons believe in plural Gods. Yeah, so? Well, actually maybe it's more accurate to say we believe in plural gods with a lowercase g. But there is only one true God who we worship.

This is huge for evangelicals. Monotheism is a badge of honor for all Abrahamic religions. We're not like the pagans who worship multiple gods...our Trinity is the one God of Deuteronomy 6:4 (Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one). In fact, this one teaching alone raises heresy flags, and the word "cult."

5. Mormons mimimize Jesus Why do they think this?

Again, doctrine. Jesus as a created being, the spirit-brother of Satan. Compare these beliefs with the evangelical notion of Jesus, co-eternal with Father, truly God the Son, apart from all created beings.

6. The whole "we are the true church" is insulting to other religious beliefs. I can understand why they would feel insulted at first, but not after studying about it some more. It's really one of the only 3 positions that any church can take- we are the true church, or we are preparing people for the true church, or we are a false church (leading people away from the true church).

One way of looking at this teaching is that it seems idolatrous. Just as many LDS may harbor suspicions that evangelicals are Bible-worshipers rather than God worshipers, evangelicals sometimes wonder if LDS don't pay more allegiance to the church that the one whom the church is named for? It may not be fair, but when a human organization becomes a gatekeeper to God, it raises the suspicions of those who mistrust Rome for the same reason.

7. Mormons still believe in polygamy even if not practiced on Earth.

This is the toughest one for me. Just gotta go by faith for now.

If it's any consolation, if I were LDS, I wouldn't be too concerned with this. At least it has historic and biblical precedent. Polygamy is sensational and odd, but hardly damnable, imho.

9. Mormons believe that some will one day becom a god and populate another planet. What do they think we'll be doing in heaven? Sitting on a cloud for eternity? They think God doesn't have the power or authority to help us become like Him?

Evangelicals expect to rule and reign WITH Christ, not independent of him.

10. Mormon missionaries withold information from prospective members. ie you don't get the full picture until after you join.

How is this different than every other church or organization? And why is it necessarily a bad thing? You gotta give the milk before the meat, right?

edit (added): Actually, I think we don't get the full picture until long after we have died.

IMHO the milk is "God loves us and forgives us." The meat is "He who tries to save his life will lose it, but he who loses his life for my sake will gain life." I would think that some time before baptism there ought to be a lesson on "Common hard questions people ask us," with a discussion of past polygamy, no blacks in the priesthood before 1978, etc. Far better to know before getting wet than to find out afterwards, and, when raising the questions get, "Well, we wanted to give you the milk before the meat."

11. Mormons baptize the dead. Actually, we baptize for the dead. How do they reconcile the commandment for all to be baptized with the fact that so many were not able to receive baptism in this life?

This is another senational doctrine. The main evangelical issue is the belief that people must choose whom they will serve in this mortal existence.

12. Mormons have secret handshakes and pass words for entry to heaven. Not entirely true. The things we learn in the temple are not to be publicly discussed, but they are filled with symbolism and deeper meaning that we need to discover.

That which is sacred to LDS, cannot but appear secret to Gentiles.

Edited May 31, 2009 by prisonchaplain

[Jim108]

Jim...as a LDS member living in a Baptist Community...you have not told me anything I don't already know.....around here ...if your not Baptist you get overlooked for things.....they take care of each other...

I could make a list of things my kids have gone thru when they were in school....and it would be lengthy...

Thats not right either. Again, we all need to do better with loving and forgiving. I am sure you have heard the whispers and seen the wink winks. Why can't we just agree to love Jesus with all our hearts. Another reason as to why I dislike religion. Jesus yes, religion no.

[Palerider]

Thats not right either. Again, we all need to do better with loving and forgiving. I am sure you have heard the whispers and seen the wink winks. Why can't we just agree to love Jesus with all our hearts. Another reason as to why I dislike religion. Jesus yes, religion no.

because it can't be that way....:)

[ztodd]

Thanks for the answers prisonchaplain - your answers all help tell why people might disagree with our doctrines, and I respect that. But I don't understand how it justifies being anti-mormon. Perhaps we are defining anti-mormon differently.