Can someone please be honest with me?

[pam]

I'm with you Miss 1/2

[Kawazu]

Lovely, I have tracked down answers for you. Let me preface these answers by noting that the Priesthood Ban was never based on sound reason or religion, but rather sprang from one man saying he heard it straight from Joseph Smith. This was perpetuated for around 150 years by what could best be referred to as a comedy of errors. Good news: The wrong has been righted.

Here are the answers you seek in detail: Blacks and the LDS Priesthood

This marvelous podcast features Darius Grey, Margaret Young and John Dehlin.

Does anyone have a method to download this presentation directly to one's computer?

[Jim108]

Jesus is the only way, in Him is truth. Jesus has always loved you and you can always count on that. If religion makes you happy and brings you to Jesus then go for it, but remember this, religion has never saved anyone. Jesus is the way, the light and the truth. Religion is external (earthly) and Christianity is internal. I hope this helps.

[Moksha]

Does anyone have a method to download this presentation directly to one's computer?

We have some computer wiz people here. You might also ask this question on the "How to" forum or the General Discussion parts of this site.

[Kenny]

The Book of Mormon has all the answers if you know where to look for them. For whatever reason for the colour of your skin, be it the mark of Cain or simply natural pigmentation because of climatic conditions it matters not. You are a child of God and no different in the sight of Him as anyone of his children. Human nature being as it is likes to see advantage over another because that is one less obstacle to cross, supposedly. The Lords loves those who overcome their trials and his love was never expressed more greatly than towards the Lamanites who had turned away from the traditions of their fathers and embraced the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I attended a symposium in my stake some years ago where the topic of the speakers talk was the preparation of the peoples of African descendant to receive the priesthood.

“There has been a great work done amongst these peoples, he expounded, “no more than when the foundations were laid for them to receive the Priesthood.”

Whole stakes and wards in some parts of the world were organised from countless, devoted, baptised members’ eager to be about the Lords work just waiting for the authority to be bestowed upon them. This was done in living memory of many church members and heralded in a time equal only to restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This part of his talk lasted about 90 minutes and went into great detail the various steps involved in bringing this about, far too much to mention here, but the conclusion that was left with me was a strong, positive feeling and an understanding that you are indeed a choice people, loved, cherished and of great worth.

Growing up with a speech impediment gave me an insight to how cruel some people can be and I have never in any way sided with attitudes and behaviours that set one people above another.

We must see this from God’s perspective not our own or misled individuals. His is the power and the glory and He dictated when these things came to pass because only He can see the end from the beginning.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Kenny

[Traveler]

I had posted this message on another thread, but I decided it would be best to start a new one.

Before I was baptized, I asked repeatedly to church leaders for answers regarding blacks in the Mormon church. I asked about the priesthood ban, and I was never told it was through revelation. I was also told that Brigham Young had put the ban into effect(no official reason given). I questioned skin color, curses, etc. And, everyone assured me that those things were false and that skin color only had to do with good/evil (spiritual). Not race. Based on what I was told, I prayed about it, and felt that I should get baptized.

Years later, a woman made some offensive comments regarding blacks in Relief Society. (This has only happened to me once. Most LDS members are very loving and embraced my family with open arms.) But,being that this was a concern to me from the very beginning, I started researching church history again. I read some VERY disturbing things that some of our leaders and authorties of the church said. I tried get answers, but no one would be direct and honest with me. Unless, you are a person of color, you really don't realize how this hurts me. This is suppose to be the true chruch and led by God. Well, God is not racists! I do not believe the ban and the racists things that I have read came through God. It makes me question what other things in the church actually came from God, or what things came from man?

As some of you know, after being sealed in the temple and being active for eight years, my entire family went inactive because we felt we did not have the full truth about things. We were devasted and deeply hurt. We started to doubt if past prophets were really true and if the church is really lead by modern day prophets (you should know, I asked these questions again before making covenants in the temple.) Again, I was assured that the preisthood ban did not occur due to racism (nothing ever mentioned about me being the lineage of Cain either).

So, a month ago, I started having promptings to return to church. These same "spiritual feelings" had led me to the church. I lost sleep for a week thinking of nothing but the church. Before this,my life was fine. We have always been a close happy family so nothing was missing from my life. But, here I was thnking of the church. My husband informed me that he had prayed about it two weeks prior. Again, I asked for the stake president and bishop to come out to talk to us. They gave no reason for the ban. They said that skin color was not race in the BOM, but spirtual. My husband and I prayed about it and went back to church. But, I continue to learn things that contradict what has been explained to me.

So, is there a secret class for white members? Do you learn that blacks are the lineage of Cain? Were we less valiant in heaven? Is this what you learn? Because I have asked time and time again and was assured none of this was this case. I was told these were anti-mormon people writing these things and taking things out of context. Yet, I am reading from some of you things that I had not heard.

Why does my Patriarchal blessing state my lineage as being the same as some of my white brother and sisters of the church? Why does my blessing go on to say that I fought valiantly in heaven and many wonderful things about me in the pre mortal? The Patriarch holds the priesthood and was ordained by Prophet Hinkley.

I am upset for the "secrets". Unless these are some of the prejudice views of man, and not the church. (which is my belief).

I love the church, but I question why things are kept from me if the church really is true. I think the hardest thing for me is trying to explain things to my children so they will not experience the pain that I do.

I will offer my opinion and I hope that in doing so we may have dialog and both learn something.

1. Is there racial prejudice in the LDS church? Technically there is no such thing as racial prejudice in human society. Technically there is enough genetic diversity in all human populations that separate or individual races of humans do not exist. That aside; there is historical and current issues with “blacks” that need to be addressed and (I believe) changes made.

2. Was it ever taught in the LDS Church that “blacks” were cursed descendents of Cain? Yes it was. I know this because I was taught that in my youth. Now is where the discussion becomes interesting, when we look a little deeper and ask why. At the time of my youth “blacks” did not have all the blessings of the priesthood given to them and they were not actively sought and taught in our missionary efforts. It was taught that “blacks” could join the church and enjoy all the blessings of membership – including eternal salvation in the Celestial Kingdom and every eternal blessing that any and every other member enjoys. Including eternal marriage and being sealed to their ancestors. But they were “withheld” from the priesthood and such blessings for reasons that in reality were not made certain with the idea that the time for their blessings would come. It is my belief that because it is such human nature to speculate that the speculation was that “blacks” were descendents of Cain and also that they must not have been as valiant in the pre-existence. Many today still see this speculation as the best viable explanation because there just does not seem to be any other explanation. And we do love to speculate.

The truth is that there is no explanation as to why “blacks” did not receive all the blessings of the restoration of the Church from the beginning. What we do know from scripture is that heaven was divided into 3 parts. A one third part followed Satan and another part was called “Great and Nobel” (Abraham was one of the Great and Nobel). We also know from Alma 13 that the Great and Nobel will have access to the priesthood in this life. Since all blacks have access to the priesthood we know for sure that all blacks that participate in the covenants of the priesthood were in the Great and Nobel category. Thus there is no sound doctrine or scripture for any individual or perceived group of individuals that seek out priesthood covenants to assume they are or were more valiant in the pre-existence than any other individual or perceived group of individuals also involved in covenants. Not only is it not sound doctrine but it is contrary to the very oath and covenant of the priesthood. It is a breach of the covenant (D&C 84).

I am a 5th generation (Danish) LDS that was involved and believed the speculations concerning blacks. But I had the opportunity and blessing to know a remarkable black priesthood holder while living in the Seattle area. We were good friends and rode the bus to work together. It was him that converted me to a different point of view. He would listen to my speculations and prove them false by his better understanding of scripture, logic and behavior. He became one of my prized friends and honored teacher.

Together members like you and me can change the thinking of generations of speculators that have gone astray. A new era is bringing greater light and understanding of peace and good will to all mankind. We will likely encounter many that need help (but that shouldn’t need help but should be giving help) in the way of examples – thanks for helping a good and important cause.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

At this point in gaining the presence of the Godhead, someone skin pigmentation would be the last issue I would be worried about.

[Guest Lovely12]

Traveler, thank you for your post. I appreciate many parts of it, but I do not agree with your statement that racial prejudice does not exit. I should know that it does! Until you have walked in my shoes, you will not understand this.

You should remember the story of Emitt Till? The young black boy in Mississippi who was brutally beaten for whistling at a white woman? If you google his name, you will see the graphic pictures of this young boy's body. There were no charges ever made in that case.

Emmett Till - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My husband was chased and later his family attacked by the KKK when he was boy. Why? because he was black. So, racial predjudice/hatred does exist. And, what I struggle with is did our past prophets hold this kind of hatred.

I thank you for your post, but I have received the help that I needed from this post and I am working together brother Marvin Perkins to seek additional help.

Thank you for sharing your story and ideas with me.

Take care.

[applepansy]

Traveler, thank you for your post. I appreciate many parts of it, but I do not agree with your statement that racial prejudice does not exit. I should know that it does! Until you have walked in my shoes, you will not understand this.

You should remember the story of Emitt Till? The young black boy in Mississippi who was brutally beaten for whistling at a white woman? If you google his name, you will see the graphic pictures of this young boy's body. There were no charges ever made in that case.

Emmett Till - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My husband was chased and later his family attacked by the KKK when he was boy. Why? because he was black. So, racial predjudice/hatred does exist. And, what I struggle with is did our past prophets hold this kind of hatred.

I thank you for your post, but I have received the help that I needed from this post and I am working together brother Marvin Perkins to seek additional help.

Thank you for sharing your story and ideas with me.

Take care.

I have no doubt there are people who are prejudiced and while I haven't seen the horrors you and your family have endured I have had friends who have. My neighbors daughter married a black man. Their experiences have been mind boggling. Here in Utah they are treated like any other couple, in the south they are treated like an abomination.

I cannot totally understand your struggles with the early teachings of the church because I have not had your experiences. What we do have in common is the religious prejudice and discrimination endured just because of membership in this Church. My ancestors were persecuted and killed for choosing to be Mormon. I do not believe that any of the early Prophets or General Authorities would ever participate in or condone the behavior of people like the KKK. They endured the extreme behaviors of the Missouri mobs, most of them first hand. Their teachings were always in accordance with what Christ taught. There were people of color who lived in SLC in the early days. They were treated kindly....maybe not as equals but at least with kindness. Do we understand why the ban? No. But that has been changed and I rejoice that all worthy male members can hold the priesthood.

My father was a missionary in South Africa when President McKay prayed for the ban to be lifted. He rejoiced in 1978 when it finally happened.

I hope you'll be able to find the peace you're looking for.

applepansy

[dnc76v22]

A few years ago, my wife and I watched a program on the BYU Channel in which a Convert told his conversion story. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think he was a former Jazz basketball player. I can't remember his name right now.

Anyway, he said one of the authorities answered his question and said the reason the Lord let the ban continue for so long is we were not ready. We being not only the church, but also the country. One must remember, a priesthood holder is many times called upon to do ordinances that require the laying on of hands. That could, and may still in some situations, cause problems for Elders of color in the Southeast United states. Before the gains made from the civilrights movement, state governments tended to sanction the murder of black men without any due process of law. Those days are passed, although there are still plenty of bigots around, they don't have unlimited control of the states.

[StallionMcBeastly]

A few years ago, my wife and I watched a program on the BYU Channel in which a Convert told his conversion story. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think he was a former Jazz basketball player. I can't remember his name right now.

Anyway, he said one of the authorities answered his question and said the reason the Lord let the ban continue for so long is we were not ready. We being not only the church, but also the country. One must remember, a priesthood holder is many times called upon to do ordinances that require the laying on of hands. That could, and may still in some situations, cause problems for Elders of color in the Southeast United states. Before the gains made from the civilrights movement, state governments tended to sanction the murder of black men without any due process of law. Those days are passed, although there are still plenty of bigots around, they don't have unlimited control of the states.

I believe you're talking about Thurl Bailey.

It's a fantastic talk Lovely, try to watch it if you can.

[dnc76v22]

And, what I struggle with is did our past prophets hold this kind of hatred.

I have never read any reference that would lead me to believe any of our past prophets have any kind of hatred that we have witnessed anywhere in the United States or South Africa.

Some of them may have been in error in some of their opinions, but I doubt they had any hate for other races.

[dnc76v22]

I believe you're talking about Thurl Bailey.

It's a fantastic talk Lovely, try to watch it if you can.

Yes, that's the name. Thank you.

[dnc76v22]

Thanx again, McBeastly for giving that name.

Here's a link where Thurl Bailey gives that story.

Meridian Magazine :: People : Thurl Bailey:*The Boy the Coach Rejected

[Traveler]

Traveler, thank you for your post. I appreciate many parts of it, but I do not agree with your statement that racial prejudice does not exit. I should know that it does! Until you have walked in my shoes, you will not understand this.

You should remember the story of Emitt Till? The young black boy in Mississippi who was brutally beaten for whistling at a white woman? If you google his name, you will see the graphic pictures of this young boy's body. There were no charges ever made in that case.

Emmett Till - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My husband was chased and later his family attacked by the KKK when he was boy. Why? because he was black. So, racial predjudice/hatred does exist. And, what I struggle with is did our past prophets hold this kind of hatred.

I thank you for your post, but I have received the help that I needed from this post and I am working together brother Marvin Perkins to seek additional help.

Thank you for sharing your story and ideas with me.

Take care.

There is prejudice – but it is not racial. As I stated previously, there is no evidence that separate human races currently exist or ever have existed. Since we truly are “brothers” and “sisters” the bias you experience must have some other basis other than race.

I understand prejudice. As a young service man in the military during the Vietnam era I was dragged from my bed late one night and beaten and threatened with death because I was a Mormon. BTW it was a “black” man that came to my aid or I most likely would not be here now. That friend later lost his life in combat trying to help his comrades.

I will add one other thing – There are in my family records and journals that go back to a covert that knew Joseph Smith personally – Others that were close to Brigham Young as well as various other church leaders. I personally knew Hugh B Brown, an apostle (died in 1975). I see no evidence of hatred towards anyone. Hugh B Brown prayed for the day that the priesthood would be available to everyone.

you take care too

The Traveler

[Guest Lovely12]

Traveler said:

"There is prejudice – but it is not racial"

Mr. Traveler,

In the United States, the Laws put us into a "Race" category. There was the "one drop rule". If you had one drop of black blood in you, then you were considered black--I believe that was the Jim Crow laws. We were enslaved, later segreated, and discriminated against. We still encounter racial discrimination today. So, I politley, but strongly disagree with you.

I have worked for law enforcement, and people are put into "race" categories, and sometimes, I am sad to say are treated accordining by their race.

by the way, one does not know you are Mormon if you go on a job interview, It is evident I am black.

Thank you kindly.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Lovely12

[Traveler]

Traveler said:

"There is prejudice – but it is not racial"

Mr. Traveler,

In the United States, the Laws put us into a "Race" category. There was the "one drop rule". If you had one drop of black blood in you, then you were considered black--I believe that was the Jim Crow laws. We were enslaved, later segreated, and discriminated against. We still encounter racial discrimination today. So, I politley, but strongly disagree with you.

I have worked for law enforcement, and people are put into "race" categories, and sometimes, I am sad to say are treated accordining by their race.

by the way, one does not know you are Mormon if you go on a job interview, It is evident I am black.

Thank you kindly.

I refuse to think of you as a separate race – or that your blood is any different from mine. I do not care what others think and believe in this matter. You are my sister and my kin and I your brother and kin and I see nothing in any statement you have made to convince me otherwise. You may not want me as a brother. You may think or wish otherwise – but I wish to make myself very clear on this subject – I believe you to be my sister in every way before G-d and I intend to honor and respect you as I do the sisters of my birth. BTW – I sometimes disagree with them as well. I am already use to having disagreements with and not winning my point with sisters.

The Traveler

[Guest Lovely12]

Mr. Traveler, You are so very wonderful and sweet. One thing I have learned from this post is that we (whites/blacks) really do not understand one another. I am learning from you all, too. I think it is great!

I was not saying that you hold these views. Most of the Mormons I have met, have never shown anything, but pure love for me.

But, not everyone views me ( blacks) the way you do. I wish they did. We are put into a separate race and treated accordingly by many.

But, I love you as my brother in Christ and I thank you so much for wanting to help me. As you can see, my pain is very deep with this subject, that is why I have seeked the help of brother Perkins. He has a strong testimony of this church, even though he knows the history. I want what he has. I want to feel the way he does. If this is indeed "the true chruch, then I want to be a part of it. I want to stand strong and defend it. I want to shield myself with armor so that I can fight off the things that may weaken my testimony. I am almost there....... almost.

By the way, you are right, we sisters can be a little fiesty! LOL! I thought that was so cute and funny.

Much love to you!

Edited June 24, 2009 by Lovely12

[Traveler]

Mr. Traveler, You are so very wonderful and sweet. One thing I have learned from this post is that we (whites/blacks) really do not understand one another. I am learning from you all, too! I think it is great!

I was not saying that you hold these views. Most of the Mormons I have met, have never shown anything, but pure love for me.

But, not everyone views me ( blacks) the way you do. I wish they did. We are put into a separate race and treated accordingly by many.

But, I love you as my brother in Christ and I thank you so much for wanting to help me. As you can see, my pain is very deep with this subject, that is why I have seeked the help of brother Perkins. He has a strong testimony of this church, even though he knows the history. I want what he has. I want to feel the way he does. If this is indeed "the true chruch, then I want to be a part of it. I want to stand strong and defend it. I want to shield myself with armor so that I can fight off the things that may weaken my testimony. I am almost there....... almost.

By the way, you are right, we sisters can be a little fiesty! LOL! I thought that was so cute and funny.

Thank you, my brother! I love you!

Looking forward to disagreements on other matters as well. I was not raised with the ability to express certain things but there is something about you and your family that brings out a very awkward I love you too and please, let’s not talk about that too much more. I am way outside of my comfort zone here.

The Traveler

[gigi]

I joined the Church when I was 9 years old. As a teenager the priesthood/race issue was huge for me. My wonderful seminary teacher brought in his father who gave his opinion. that Black people would hold the priesthood when White people were ready -basically he explained that he thought it was our (White) punishment that we weren't spiritually mature enough for the priesthood to be extended to Black members. We were losing blessings because of that. I held on to those thoughts, which kept me from leaving the Church (cuz some of those teenage boys were quite racist.....those particular boys all became inactive in high school).

Why the Lord has restricted the priesthood to different groups in different ages eludes me, but I'm positive He has a purpose in it. Maybe His purposes, when fully understood, will surprise us.

Gospel Doctrine is that which is 'signed, sealed, and delivered' by the entire First Presidency. Bretheren speak on issues according to the light and understanding they have on a given issue at a given time.

I always knew that the doctrine of the Church was that the priesthood and temple blessings would be available to all. Period. It was difficult being patient, but That Revelation is the sweetest thing to me. The very sweetest!

[gigi]

PS That whole less valiant/fence sitter thing was never doctrine! Poor Elder McConkie had to apologize for several doctrinally inaccurate things in Mormon Doctrine. That book is not doctrine. Men, apostles, prophets have said many things. Some of us believe them, but still.....just the ideas of mortal men at the time unless 'signed, sealed, and delivered' by the First Presidency.

The great thing about the gospel is that we never take things at face value. We pray and receive personal revelation to confirm that which is true. We are so blessed to always be led by a prophet of God. Prophets are not perfect. Christ is perfect. Some people believe 'folk' doctrine (they've heard it, so they believe it). The Lord won't let the prophet lead us astray. Don't deny yourselves the blessings of the fulness of the gospel. The Lord loves you. More than you could ever imagine!

[Guest Lovely12]

LOL! Thank you, Traveler. I will take your last post a big compliment. Thank you!

Gigi, thank you, too, for your sincere and loving post.

[Kenny]

The Lord through the scriptures and modern revelation has given us all the answers we need but too many people focus or are stuck on one aspect of something that happened or was said and this is where they live. As every day goes by then weeks, years even decades leaves us closer to the end of our probation and the end of the opportunity to progress further under our own free agency.

There are many hang ups in my life some justifiable for me to withdraw from the membership of the only church on Earth that is the true church on of Jesus Christ but what do I gain, who pays?

People are just to grown up in my experience when in reality they are little children in the intelligence stakes when comparing such to Gods.

There are things we don’t understand we could never learn everything in our short time here but the truth I hold on to is that of knowing that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and was the Lord’s instrument in restoring His Gospel.

In the great council two good plans were presented well to us and the majority of the human family would have been floaters, the others were firmly rooted in one camp or the other and immovable.

Father knew there could only be one way but it was important to us and our free agency that we came to that conclusion without being compelled.

Satan has no more influence over us then we are willing to give him, he did have the power but this was curtailed by God to be no more harmful than bruising our heal.

Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters before Cain and Able came along and Cain became the first to not only take human life but to put his own contribution above the Lords.

From that point on, (remember Cain was not destroyed), he could no longer have the same standing as he once held and was commanded to leave.

11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand;

12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a afugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

He could no longer be innocent he was cursed. If you were sinless and able to get back into the presence of God by your own efforts but then fall you are cursed because you can only get back now through the efforts of someone accountable who is sinless, or He who was without sin.

13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

Here is the part most people miss or fail to understand:

15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

This applied to his offspring as well.

The mark of Cain was giving as a warning to those who did not carry the mark.

17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

He knew is wife this scriptures says, a sister that was not carrying the same mark and not under any condemnation of the Lord, so much so that from their union was born Enoch. So righteous was Enoch he lived and set an example to all the human family of how we should live. So righteous were the people of the City of Enoch that the Lord put the city somewhere else not even on the Earth at all.

If we accept Jesus Christ as our saviour and strive to obey His commandments we qualify for all that He has promised.

Accepting Christ as our saviour and obeying His commandments means we must attend His church and be subject to the saving ordinances.

No other church on Earth has all the saving ordinances than does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

This is the only truth we should concern ourselves about everything else is to distract us from that truth.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Kenny

[Seanette]

He knew is wife this scriptures says, a sister that was not carrying the same mark and not under any condemnation of the Lord, so much so that from their union was born Enoch. So righteous was Enoch he lived and set an example to all the human family of how we should live. So righteous were the people of the City of Enoch that the Lord put the city somewhere else not even on the Earth at all.

I agree with most of your points, but I'm pretty sure you have your Enochs confused here. According to footnote b for Genesis 4:17 in the LDS edition of the KJV, the Enoch who founded the city of Zion was a descendant of Seth.

I know that's really trivial, but I do tend to fixate on things like that.

[Kenny]

I agree with most of your points, but I'm pretty sure you have your Enochs confused here. According to footnote b for Genesis 4:17 in the LDS edition of the KJV, the Enoch who founded the city of Zion was a descendant of Seth.

I know that's really trivial, but I do tend to fixate on things like that.

Yes my appoligies you are right got carried away in the moment and missed the cross reference and made the common mistake.

Do not confuse Enoch of Cain’s lineage and the city of his name with the Enoch of Seth’s lineage and the city (Zion) of his name. (See Moses 6: 21 — 7: 69.).

21 And Jared lived one hundred and sixty-two years, and begat Enoch; and Jared lived, after he begat Enoch, eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters. And Jared taught Enoch in all the ways of God.

The sentiment is the same though in that it is man who see the linerage of Cain in lesser terms than does our Father in Heaven.