Are there contradictions in the Mormon writings?

[beefche]

You wouldn't, but who is Jesus to you?

aj, this is a sincere question. Why are you here? Is it to understand our beliefs? Is it to share common experiences and build relationships? Is it to convince one or more of us of our error?

[ztodd]

Well, this is really going to be tough. You have a point, but what has really changed since Joseph Smith's visions accept a new division and another church that is contrary to the others. I see no restoration of the gospel or the body of Christ. All I see is many contradictions being cleverly and conveniently explained away from the Bible. I have a living prophet. Jesus is who He is. I also have the Spirit of God that leads me into all truth and He will show me great and wonderful things I know not and prepare me for what I am not ready for yet. I just don't need another dose of deception. I have been there and done that.

That is very good that you are watchful and careful not to be deceived. And that you are testing our beliefs with the Word of God. The Bible truly is the Word of God, so I commend you for holding fast to it.

The story of the restoration of the gospel as we present it is a new thing to you, and seems to be against what you've always believed in- so it is good that you proceed with caution. But I hope you can also proceed with an open heart, ready to accept whatever the Lord may have in store for you.

It sounds like you are willing to accept new truth, but you just need to have that witness from God for yourself about whether it really is true or not. That's a good thing- don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

I hope you can tell that we are all (mostly :) ) genuine and sincere, and not trying to deceive you. And we don't want you to just take our word for it. You are correct- the Spirit of God will lead you to all truth and prepare you for what you are not ready for yet. He will also do the same for me. We can all help each other in achieving this goal.

[ztodd]

aj, this is a sincere question. Why are you here? Is it to understand our beliefs? Is it to share common experiences and build relationships? Is it to convince one or more of us of our error?

To me it seems he is here to find the truth. If he has some truth that we don't have, he'd like to share it- just like we would.

[ztodd]

I feel a pulling, but I know it is the devil. I need to back off a little this is dangerous stuff.

It truly is deep doctrine, and so it can be a slippery edge, if people "reach beyond the mark".

Perhaps we should take a few steps back and discuss the more basic doctrines first. I think that is what our Heavenly Father would have us do.

[ztodd]

Why do I need you as a witness when I can interact with God myself?

-Charley

Because God sometimes uses people to answer our prayers, and to help be a witness to us. I would go so far as to say that even people who are not members of the church can still be a witness of God to us. We can never have too many witnesses!

[jadams_4040]

Fishing mostly, but Jesus said, "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true" but in another place Jesus said, "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is true." This seems like a contradiction to me. I have my opinion of this. Your comment.

can you provide a refferance so we can read in context?.:)

[Elgama]

Because God sometimes uses people to answer our prayers, and to help be a witness to us. I would go so far as to say that even people who are not members of the church can still be a witness of God to us. We can never have too many witnesses!

for me a person becomes a witness when God guides me that way, they are not a witness because they proclaim they are - even with Jesus, Heavenly Father bears witness of him. And for me its the same with any word I receive of God's it is proceeded by the still small voice saying something along the lines of this is my beloved.. hear them

We can have too many people who place themselves above God and proclaim themselves as witnesses. We can never have too much guidance from God in our lives

You wouldn't, but who is Jesus to you?

I can use many adjectives and scriptural meanings etc, but the most important to me is the companionship, the wise guide in my life, the personal response, someone I can lean on and rely on.

The atonement is important but its important because Jesus lives and I love Him without that relationship in 2009 my Faith and Knowledge would be nothing

Who is He to you?

-Charley

[pam]

Ztodd you are much too nice. I apologize if I don't agree with you as to the intent of this thread and others started by AJ.

[Seanette]

Frankly, pam, I'm inclined toward your POV. (Hoping we're simply exhibiting the "burned too many times" reaction.)

[Carl62]

It sounds like you are willing to accept new truth.

Ztodd, go back and read AJ's "Does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?" thread, then tell us if you still feel the same way.

[Carl62]

I have a living prophet. Jesus is who He is.

Wow! So for you, Jesus is just a living prophet? Isn't this the way Muslims also regard Jesus, as just a prophet? For me, Jesus happens to be the one who died on the cross for my sins and arose the third day so that I may have eternal life in Him, along with my Heavenly Father! Are you REALLY sure you know Jesus? I know I do!:)

[ztodd]

Wow! So for you, Jesus is just a living prophet? Isn't this the way Muslims also regard Jesus, as just a prophet? For me, Jesus happens to be the one who died on the cross for my sins and arose the third day so that I may have eternal life in Him, along with my Heavenly Father! Are you REALLY sure you know Jesus? I know I do!:)

That's kind of disrespectful.

He didn't say he thought Jesus is "just" a prophet.

[john doe]

Jesus is not a prophet. Jesus is the Savior. A prophet communicates with Jesus and relays their will to us. Aj is confused, as usual. Aj, just so you know, there is a living prophet today who communicates with Jesus and tells us what He would have us do. He's not some being in a cloud, he's a man who speaks to those with the ears to hear.

[ztodd]

Ztodd, go back and read AJ's "Does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?" thread, then tell us if you still feel the same way.

Nah.. it's too long. :)

But AJ said he was looking for "the Spirit of God to lead [him] into all truth and show [him] great and wonderful things [he] know not and prepare [him] for what [he is] not ready for yet."

That sounds to me like he's willing to accept new truth.

I just feel like y'all aren't really helping by mis-trusting his intentions.

'

[john doe]

I feel a pulling, but I know it is the devil. I need to back off a little this is dangerous stuff.

Yeah, we wouldn't want you to start feeling the Spirit. Stay in the shallow end of the pool where it's safe. And by all means if this truth stuff starts to rub off on you, stay away from mirrors, you may find your reflection fading.

[john doe]

Nah.. it's too long. :)

But AJ said he was looking for "the Spirit of God to lead [him] into all truth and show [him] great and wonderful things [he] know not and prepare [him] for what [he is] not ready for yet."

That sounds to me like he's willing to accept new truth.

I just feel like y'all aren't really helping by mis-trusting his intentions.

'

The secret to accepting new truth is to be open to new ideas. AJ has told us numerous times he's not ready to consider the truth.

[Carl62]

That's kind of disrespectful.

He didn't say he thought Jesus is "just" a prophet.

Again, if you go back and read "Does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?", you'll see why I said that. Not meaning to be disrespectful, I was just giving him a teeeny sample of the same kind of logic that he's been using on us for 40+ pages of the other thread. After awhile, yes it does get a bit annoying. Again, before judging others on their responses towards him and saying how he's so open for new truth and so receptive, please go back and read the previous thread. Thanks.

[ztodd]

Yeah, we wouldn't want you to start feeling the Spirit. Stay in the shallow end of the pool where it's safe. And by all means if this truth stuff starts to rub off on you, stay away from mirrors, you may find your reflection fading.

Not helpful.

What do you expect this to lead to?

Are the true colors of some of our moderators starting to show here?

[Traveler]

Wow! So for you, Jesus is just a living prophet? Isn't this the way Muslims also regard Jesus, as just a prophet? For me, Jesus happens to be the one who died on the cross for my sins and arose the third day so that I may have eternal life in Him, along with my Heavenly Father! Are you REALLY sure you know Jesus? I know I do!:)

I would ask that you be careful - adding the word "just" changes the meaning of a prophet. Jesus was also a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. These titles that were also given to ordinary men does not diminish the divine calling of Christ but should be used to understand the divine calling sometimes given to man to stand as proxy for G-d.

In essence a prophet is a mouthpiece or spokesman that by divine power of attorney speaks as though they were G-d.

I am always taken off guard by someone claiming to witness for G-d that struggle with the concept that the destiny of man is to be like G-d. It is almost like they are making a witness against themselves. That man is the image and likeness of G-d is in the “Genesis” of understanding the things of G-d. Whenever a man gives a true witness of the things of G-d it is not the man but the spirit of G-d speaking through them. Likewise a person does not here by their understanding but by the understanding of G-d.

Which in part is understood by the admonition “Let him that has ears hear or he that has eyes see.” Jesus told Peter that one does not know the truth of the Christ by scripture but by the Father.

The Traveler

[ztodd]

Again, if you go back and read "Does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?", you'll see why I said that. Not meaning to be disrespectful, I was just giving him a teeeny sample of the same kind of logic that he's been using on us for 40+ pages of the other thread. After awhile, yes it does get a bit annoying. Again, before judging others on their responses towards him and saying how he's so open for new truth and so receptive, please go back and read the previous thread. Thanks.

Have patience, my friend. Try to take a moment to try to see things from the perspective of someone who has been taught all their life that the Bible is the infallible word of God and that it is heresy to consider certain interpretations that are completely against what he has been taught.

[john doe]

Not helpful.

What do you expect this to lead to?

Are the true colors of some of our moderators starting to show here?

AJ has already told us he is trolling, fishing to see what he can hook. He's not here to learn, he's here to try to confuse us. The problem is, he's so obviously confused about what he believes he doesn't know what to do once someone nibbles at his non-bait.

Here's my monthly dues that normally go to Palerider, I want you to take it and go buy a sense of humor. I'm sure he'll understand the shortfall this one time.

[aj4u]

Because God sometimes uses people to answer our prayers, and to help be a witness to us. I would go so far as to say that even people who are not members of the church can still be a witness of God to us. We can never have too many witnesses!

Wow, how your talking!

[ztodd]

AJ has already told us he is trolling, fishing to see what he can hook. He's not here to learn, he's here to try to confuse us. The problem is, he's so obviously confused about what he believes he doesn't know what to do once someone nibbles at his non-bait.

Here's my monthly dues that normally go to Palerider, I want you to take it and go buy a sense of humor. I'm sure he'll understand the shortfall this one time.

Well, he did say he was fishing, but not trolling. And I don't think he ever said he's "not ready to consider the truth."

Perhaps he is confused- So am I about certain things in this universe. Are you trying to help his confusion?

Thanks, I can use all the I can get!

I found the humor to be in poor taste- just my opinion.

'

Edited June 13, 2009 by ztodd

[aj4u]

AJ has already told us he is trolling, fishing to see what he can hook. He's not here to learn, he's here to try to confuse us. The problem is, he's so obviously confused about what he believes he doesn't know what to do once someone nibbles at his non-bait.:

I thought you said I was fishing without bait. And you say I am confused about what I believe. Fishing means something else to me than for you. Jesus said follow me and I will make you fishers of men. I know what i believe. I follow Christ not man!

Here's my monthly dues that normally go to Palerider, I want you to take it and go buy a sense of humor. I'm sure he'll understand the shortfall this one time.

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Edited June 14, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

I think there are times when it is appropriate to close a thread, but I don't think it should be the head moderator (John Doe) who causes or escalates a discussion to the point it is necessary to close a thread because of attacking a person rather than the topic. You were the first to start with inflaming comments. John Doe should not have the position he has as head moderator. I was trying to back off right when the thread was closed. I really think it is your inflaming post or comments that should be deleted and the thread reopened, but who i am i? That thread was "Does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?"

If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen!

Edited June 14, 2009 by aj4u