Sealing Cancellation Request

[Snow]

The Prophets are very clear that if you were & are even now, a loving faithful husband to her & did not want the divorce & you have since kept your covenants of faithfulness to her & try to love & serve her when you get the chance, than you are still married in Heavenly Father's eyes (he does not consider a forced divorce on a faithful spouse valid or any remarriage she may enter either). Your sealing can never really be broken against your will. The Prophets have said that even a Prophet can't break your sealing if you were & are faithful to her & God, they only can break it if you aren't faithful.

... said by one who hails from the people are property camp.

In case you didn't get the memo: Lincoln freed the slaves in 1862.

[Snow]

Pres. Kimball believed that those couples who had an inappropriate (emotional or physical) relationship before divorce are not worthy of ever remarrying in the temple.

Did he also say that those that make things up can never get married in temple?

Come on foreverafter - it just you and me here. You made that up, didn't you?

Well?

[Maya]

I have a feeling we will be mighty buzy in the 1000 years Kingdom and that we will be plesently suprised! :)

My ex was not a member ... so I suppose that dont count

My DH has a disorder, bipolar what ever, that gave me free hands to walk away from him anytime. Today how ever we are doing ok. Could be better, but maybe not.... who knows maybe my Theacum is stil waiting for me in the eternal.

Sometime I think it does not really matter who you marry just you are faithful... and everything will be just great at the end. Also I believe that those faithful, that dont find a spouse in this life will get a chanse in the 1000 years Kingdom.

[Generally_Me]

But if Dr. Laura condones it....

I just don't understand this belief. So this woman should now disrupt a man's life and a child's life to return to the 1st husband. Does this mean that the 2nd husband would commit adultery if he married another woman? Afterall, his 1st marriage was dissolved, but if he marries another, isn't that adultery according to forever? What if the 1st husband had died? Should the woman just leave her 2nd husband and remain faithful to the 1st to show true repentance?

I've only been listening to Dr Laura for about 2 years, so maybe I missed something, but I have never, ever heard her condone leaving the new marriage and new children to go back to the old. She discourages frivolous divorces, saying there should only be a divorce if there is Addiction, Abuse or Adultery, and has suggested there are ways to get past the Adultery thing and have a happy marriage (depending on the situation of course).

Foreverafter, I have to ask, do you have a source on your Dr. Laura claim? Is it in one of her books? On her show? Can you give the show date, so I can look it up?

OP, I am sorry to hear what you are going through; my aunt had to have a temple sealing undone, as her husband became excessively abusive and put their children in danger. She is now married to a very nice convert to the Church. I hope that you too can find eternal happiness; it sounds like you may have dodged a bullet on this one.

[pam]

I've only been listening to Dr Laura for about 2 years, so maybe I missed something, but I have never, ever heard her condone leaving the new marriage and new children to go back to the old.

Beefche's remarks about Dr. Laura was sarcasm in response to foreverafter's claims that Dr. Laura said it.

[zzyxz]

Concerning that paraphrase from Kimball, it comes from his book, The Miracle of Forgiveness. I don't remember exactly where in the book, and I'm not in the mood to read the whole thing again, but I think its in the middle-ish of the book.

Edit: Google is our friend. Found the whole bloody book online. Looks like around page 132 onward or so, is probably pretty close to the quote/paraphrase mentioned. Again, I didn't have time to read it thuroughly; just a quick breeze-over.

Edited August 5, 2009 by zzyzx

[jadams_4040]

I recently received a sealing cancellation request from my ex-wife. We have been divorced for 10 years. I have a few questions that I haven't found any solid answers to so I'm hoping these forums could possibly shed some light on them for me.

1. How long, after the forms are submitted, does it take for the First Presidency to make a decision?

2. Obviously if the sealing is canceled I will be notified, but what if the sealing cancellation is denied? Will I still be notified or will my ex be the only one notified since she is the one applying for it?

3. No covenant breaking actions caused the divorce. She simply decided that she didn't want to be married anymore. I think more than anything it was because she was a bit immature (she was only 20) and missed her family too much. How likely is it that the First Presidency grants her this petition? (I had heard that if there wasn't any abuse, neglect, or adultery the First Pres is unlikely to grant such a petition.)

4. I haven't remarried. So if the First Pres gives the OK for the cancellation does that mean I'm eternally screwed unless I find someone else to be sealed with? I didn't break any covenants, I didn't even want the divorce, so I can't imagine a loving Heavenly Father condemning me for that.

Anyway, thank you in advance for your responses.

Theres not any doubt that she has broken the rules in some manner or another is there? I mean assuming you have kept yourself morally clean and worthy, it doesnt sound like she has? I;E chasity, w.o.w, e;t;c.....So i would say the eternal marriage will not be regognized anyway.:)

[Generally_Me]

Beefche's remarks about Dr. Laura was sarcasm in response to foreverafter's claims that Dr. Laura said it.

I caught that he was responding to her; I did not catch the sarcasm though. Thank you.

[Hemidakota]

Concerning that paraphrase from Kimball, it comes from his book, The Miracle of Forgiveness. I don't remember exactly where in the book, and I'm not in the mood to read the whole thing again, but I think its in the middle-ish of the book.

Edit: Google is our friend. Found the whole bloody book online. Looks like around page 132 onward or so, is probably pretty close to the quote/paraphrase mentioned. Again, I didn't have time to read it thuroughly; just a quick breeze-over.

What phrase are you referring too?

[zzyxz]

The paraphrase that foreverafter and pam are arguing about.

foreverafter:

Pres. Kimball believed that those people who have a relationship before divorce are not worthy of ever remarrying in the temple.

pam:

Do you have a reference where he might have said this?

[Charlyc]

Yes, if all the paperwork is in order and it reaches the committee then in 3-4 months they return an answer. the cases delayed more than this is because of some problem with paperwork either incomplete or missing, and due to church employees keeping everything super secret, they usually don't tell people that a letter or two are missing or the letter doesn't address the issue until a SP chases things up.

But what you write in 3 & 4 should be clearly explained in the your letter addressed to President Monson. Especially if you still prefer to be married.

But then the outcome is almost a lottery. I know cases that came back denied when there wasn't any clear reason for that since both had formed new families and others, partners in adultery, permitted although the partners left behind were still single.

Either case you are never 'screwed' because you have this life plus the 1000 years of millennium to find that partner for exaltation. Personally I'd forget about this girl who now wants to marry someone else.

[threepercent]

ok, some real off the wall stuff in this thread.

first. the sealing done in the temples is an ordinance, not the "actual" sealing. for the "actual" sealing to take place requires both parties to reach the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, and for both parties to want (read here, agency, or NOT SATAN'S PLAN) the sealing to continue, and THEN the holy spirit of promise will seal the marriage. that can happen here on earth or later.

note that both parties have to have made the celestial kingdom. think about what KIND of person that is.

The marriage covenant is just that, a covenant. made between a man and a woman with CHRIST at the center. so you can be released from your marriage contract by the breaking of the contractual agreements, but you can only be released from the covenant by Christ. but, as a man, you can just continue forward anyway and let her work out her own salvation.

I would put more down but I just dont want to post it here, I will pm on request. this is a sacred subject.

[Charlyc]

The paraphrase that foreverafter and pam are arguing about.

foreverafter:

Pres. Kimball believed that those people who have a relationship before divorce are not worthy of ever remarrying in the temple

I know a couple who were excommunicated for adultery in '94 (I was in that then court) but stayed together after that, married and where sealed -or married in the Temple in 2004- for time and all eternity. Both had children from first marriages who weren't all adults yet but that didn't stop them obtaining the necessary clearance&annulment.

Pres Kimball may well have believed the above but today the first presidency is much more forgiving.

[zzyxz]

So, by that standard, its Ok to start an Eternal family by committing adultery as long as you follow thru and get sealed to him/her later down the road? Because today you can get away with it..... um, because they are much more forgiving now.

Edited August 7, 2009 by zzyzx

[pam]

I don't think Charly is saying it's "okay." I think Charly is just giving an example to show that someone that has committed adultery can after the proper repentance process get married in the temple.

[Wants2Know]

Yes, my ex-wife is getting married to the guy she was hanging out with while we were married. She said nothing ever happened but she was hanging out with him behind my back.

Ya know, it seems that this divorce has almost destroyed me. And if she actually got the cancellation it would almost be the last nail in the coffin for me. Imagine, your wife leaves you for another guy, gets engaged to him, and then is allowed to be sealed to him. I can't imagine that happening, but if it does how is a sealing any more permanent or serious than a typical civil marriage today in age?

Sorry for the negative post. I'm just tired of being beat down and feeling like I can't fight back.

I don't understand why you would fight the cancellation? Just because you want revenge? My understanding is that your wife would not be held to be with you in eternity if she didn't want to anyway... so why continue the charade on earth?

[its_Chet]

I don't understand why you would fight the cancellation? Just because you want revenge? My understanding is that your wife would not be held to be with you in eternity if she didn't want to anyway... so why continue the charade on earth?

Revenge? Sounds like quite an assumption to me.

The tone I inferred from RealDeseret's posts on this (and I also infer that others have as well), is that he still loves her and doesn't want to lose her, at least not more than he already has. He can't control what's already happened, but he still has the option to give his consent to having their sealing dissolved or not to. I perceive that he's holding on because he still loves her and wants her back if at all possible. We all can see it's not possible, but when you're in a lot of pain and you're desperate, you'll hold on to any hope you have, no matter how slim.

And yes, I think most of us believe that if she doesn't want to remain sealed to him, Heavenly Father will not force it, even if she's at fault and he's done nothing wrong. But maybe RealDeseret doesn't know/understand/believe this, and thinks that by holding on, he can remain sealed to her after their judgment day too.

Sounds to me like the man is in a lot of pain that isn't going away with time. Rather than browbeating him, I'd encourage some sympathy and compassion. This could happen to anyone of us. How would we want to be treated?

Let's just share with RealDeseret our belief that his ex-wife will not be compelled to remain sealed to him in the Celestial Kingdom, assuming they both make it there, of course, and that a loving Heavenly Father will eventually provide for RealDeseret a loving spouse who will bless him with all the affection and companionship that we all deserve. Let's give him hope that even though it feels like he's paying the price for her mistakes and she's getting the happiness he deserves, he will eventually be better off than he ever was before.

Let's see how supportive we can be, and save the browbeating for the Jerry Springer show or the political internet forums.

[zzyxz]

There's also the possibility that in the next life, when all involved are that much closer to a Celestial perspective, that RealDeseret's ex-wife may realize that Oh, hmm, maybe she didn't make the most correct choice. The new husband may realize the same. Those two might decide that they should part and RealDeseret's wife should really be back with him. Does that possibility muddy up the waters? You sure bet it does. Maybe the real solution is that people shouldn't harden their hearts once they get married, especially sealed.

A rather humorous folly that often comes up among mormondom is that so many get stuck in the mindset that the happenings of this Telestial world, that we're all stuck in, are what's going to set the precedence for the happenings of the Celestial world to come.

[ryanh]

What makes me uncomfortable with the stances taken in some posts is that the poster(s) seem to presume that we are responsible to “save” ourselves. The language that a person ‘must do this or that’ seems to deny the Savior’s necessary role in our salvation, let alone the role the atonement will have in our exaltation.

RealDeseret’s ex wife will never be perfect no matter how hard she tries. Does that preclude her from any possibility of exaltation? If I accept that, than I might as well quit trying, as I’m doomed. Fortunately, I understand that the atonement is far more encompassing and merciful than that.

I honestly don’t think the posts are meant to express positions without faith in the Savior, but that is the result I see. It’s a hard line for LDS to walk as the culture is so driven to do all we can (which I don’t see as a bad thing, so long as we retain the correct understanding).

I also see extreme unresolved pain in the past of a couple individuals strongly coloring their ability to consider the whole picture.

____________________________________________

As unfriendly as it may seem RealDeseret, I mean it with love when I say I agree with Rameumptom that there are some aspects that perhaps you should address with a therapist and priesthood leaders. 10 years is an awfully long time to have not moved on, and to be feeling hurt and blindsided by the latest action by your former wife.

Hopefully the tangential discussions have been beneficial to you to understand that you are in no way “screwed” because of the actions of others. We all are hurt at various times to varying degrees by the actions or inactions of others. As long as we are trying to do what we need to, all will be made whole.

[Charlyc]

Yes, exactly.

But there is also a feeling that what happened isn't all that correct, that they were forgiven within 10 years. Maybe they could've waited longer, until their ex's where on their feet again.

[Guest missingsomething]

1. Time varies on many factors - it is not the same for anyone. No one here can tell you that- not even your bishop can tell you this - there are too many factors and then the 1st pres. must pray about it for you too. It can go quickly, but it can also take years.

2. YOu are notified either way.

3. Again, this is decided on a case-by-case basis. There is no "never" or "always" in these things. I have known people to get it for no "major sins' and "major sins" not granted it. But in my experience if the female has remarried, or plans to go to the temple to remarry - they have a better shot of getting it granted.

4. Your Father loves you and we are promised that if keep His commandments you will receive the blessings. But I have always been told that men are held responsible for finding a mate moreso than a woman. Its hard once your heart has been broken... but at some point you have to finish the grieving process and move on (and I am in NO WAY saying YOU in particular havent done so).

[zzyxz]

the sealing done in the temples is an ordinance, not the "actual" sealing. for the "actual" sealing to take place requires both parties to reach the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, and for both parties to want (read here, agency, or NOT SATAN'S PLAN) the sealing to continue, and THEN the holy spirit of promise will seal the marriage. that can happen here on earth or later.

I would put more down but I just dont want to post it here, I will pm on request. this is a sacred subject.

threepercent, this is something new to me and I would be very interested in more details. I sent you a pm, but haven't heard back. If you'd like to just email me: [email protected] Thanks.

[Guest missingsomething]

there's a problem with the claim that repentance cannot be complete without full restitution. The problem is that some sins and transgressions have irreversible consequences for which no restitution is possible. When we talk about the "steps of repentance" we often name restitution as a step, but many times forget to say that restitution should be made to the best of our ability (as stated by president lee).

Let's consider some other examples where restitution can never be full or complete. Take a young adult woman who decides to engage in sexual activity. How can she make restitution? She cannot reclaim her virginity. Something was lost that cannot be restored. To require full and complete restitution would mean that this woman could never fully repent.

Now let's extend the hypothetical situation. Suppose the woman becomes pregnant. How is she supposed to make restitution now? What can she possibly return to herself and her partner and her child that will make a full and complete restitution?

And if we extend yet further. Suppose the woman chooses to keep the child and raise it as a single mother. Let's also suppose she chose to do this before joining the church. As she joins the church, she now has to repent of the sin that brought her beloved child into the world. How is a single mother, who loves and adores her child, supposed to utter the words "the action that brought my child into the world was a tragic and terrible mistake" without feeling some cognitive dissonance? Do we really comprehend how hard it is to separate the tragedy of the sexual act for the joy and elation of raising a child?

That single mother simply cannot make full restitution. But we do know that she can repent and be forgiven. She must only make restitution to the best of her ability. That may mean, in her case, being the best mom she can be, providing the best opportunities for her child, and above all, ceasing further unchaste activity. If that's the best she can do for restitution, then i promise you, the savior will consider it enough.

Now, enough with hypotheticals. Let's discuss a real situation. I know a woman who married a man when she was 19. She and her husband had a child together. But those first couple of years didn't go as wonderfully as planned, and before long, she found herself drowning in despair. She was losing herself and miserable--no matter what she tried, she could not seem to make her marriage with this man work. Finally, she broke, and she divorced her husband.

About a year later, she met another man, grew to love him, and married him. She had a child with her second husband. After the birth of her second child, she learned that her first husband had been manic depressive. They simply didn't know during their marriage. Without that knowledge, they couldn't possibly have taken the proper steps to repair their relationship. But here's the question now--whereas there was no adultery to justify their divorce, with the new information she had, how is she supposed to make restitution? Does she leave her second husband and son to return to her first husband because now she knows what she can do to repair their relationship? Doesn't that put her in a situation where making restitution requires her to make an entirely different mess?

It gets a little crazier too...the woman's first husband, while having learned to manage his illness through behavior and medication, has finally become stable, but has been known to bounce in and out of activity in the church. Her second husband, on the other hand, has served as a bishop and on multiple high councils. Without question, she has been greatly blessed because of her decision to marry and stay with her second husband? How is that consistent with not having repented nor made restitution for her first divorce?

My point in saying all this is that we're dealing with very complex issues that have no simple answers. Trying to boil these issues down to a seven step model of repentance that we teach children with shop lifting and arguing as examples is a grotesque injustice to the people suffering from these situations.

I will also add this point, with the warning that it will come off as very harsh. Some have said to the original poster that if he remains faithful to his covenants, if he chooses, he may still have his wife for eternity if he chooses to have her. But what if she doesn't want him? To force her to be with him against her will is contrary to the fundamental principles of the plan of happiness. Besides, the sealing covenant is sealed by the holy spirit of promise when we accept and keep the covenant by our own free will and choice. Can we really be so certain that it remains in effect when people choose, by their own free will and choice, not to keep it?

a bazilliiioooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnn thanks to you

[Maya]

IMHO If this is bothering either one of the ones that earlier were married they should have a talk about it and if it bothers her a lot she should ask him for forgiveness. I dont think she can be accused of doing wrong, as she did not know he was manic. I believe God will let her choose.

[ryanh]

I actually have thought of this thread a couple times in the last day or two. I ran across a quote that by Elder Oaks that is applicable to the discussion.

In speaking regarding divorce, Elder Oaks said:

Whatever the outcome and no matter how difficult your experiences, you have the promise that you will not be denied the blessings of eternal family relationships if you love the Lord, keep His commandments, and just do the best you can.

Elder Oaks - Divorce - April 2007 Conference

Note: he doesn't indicate that to enjoy eternal family relationships, one must reconcile to their former spouse in this life, or other various steps. 1) love the Lord, 2) keep His commandments, and 3) just do the best you can.