My husband came back.....

[RachelleDrew]

The title says it all. I wasn't intending on him ever coming back, and I certainly wasn't intending on him getting hooked up with a psychologist and apologizing profusely and actually making sincere amends to try and repair the damage he has caused.

I am very confused. This really truly feels like a sincere effort with the potential to be fixable with the right aid (marital counseling and medication for his disease). But I am hesitant.

I certainly am no longer angry with him for the affair, or the nasty things he did and said afterwards because I KNOW it wasn't really him. I have Bi-Polar disorder that is more severe than his is, and I know that when unmedicated you nearly forget who you are at times. Forgiveness is easy for me in this situation because I totally get why he behaved so nastily and with such little regard for my emotions or for our son.

However, the trust is severely damaged. Prior to this incident, my husband was allowed to do as he pleased with no interference or nagging from me of any sort. He could hang out with male buds whenever he liked, he could have female friends without me worrying about him doing something inappropriate. I didn't spy on his emails or phone calls. He was completely free to do what he liked without complaint or worry from me.

But I know that a lot of that has to change now, and i'm not really sure where to begin. What is appropriate at this point as far as his social life goes? I understand that he needs to sort of "earn" those freedoms back in order to regain my trust. On the other hand, I don't want to press my thumb down on him 24/7 or else I fear I might overwhelm him and push him away.

He also never faced any consequences from the church regarding his adultery or his desertion of me and my son. The only thing that the other woman faced was that she was told by her bishop to not contact my husband anymore. She still tries to send him letters and emails, he does not respond to them in any way. I appreciate that from him, but it still angers me that neither of them are being made to accept any form of responsibility from the church leaders. The other woman is still going on her mission too. I worry about a girl that immature going on a mission and being held at such a high level of responsibility.

My branch president basically told me that because my husband is practically inactive at this point, that he didn't see the point in having any further action. I can see what he is getting at, and I accept his decision but I am a little confused. I don't feel as though the church is backing me up or offering my husband a chance at TRUE repentance for his actions. I'm scared that if he doesn't make a full repentance now, that this might happen again.

I don't know, my train of thought is a little skewed right now. There are so many other details regarding this issue, but it would be too lengthy to type out right at this moment. I guess my question is this: where do we go from here? What can I do to help mend this? He may of cheated, but I have responsibility in this situation as well and I want to do my part to make this better.

[Guest Alana]

Wow, you sure do have a lot on your plate. My first thought when reading this was that if things are so confusing right now and you're feeling hesitant, it is ok to not get together right now. That doesn't mean you're telling him no, but it's ok to give this a little more time, have him around, but not necessarily living with you.

Also, as far as the girl goes, try not to spend too much time with that. You have enough to worry so about her life and mission, eh, just let it go:)

As far as your bishop not wanting to go to your husband right now, there might be some very real reasons for that. You said you husband is pretty much inactive. If he is the one to seek out the bishop and start the repentance process it will go a million times better. In fact, if he was to be called for a disciplinary council right now your husband might end up just feeling judged and resentful and he might push back even harder against the church. I know that's a lot of 'might's... but hopefully your bishop is going this course because he's being directed by the Spirit, and not just on a whim.

Also you mentioned your husband 'earning' rights back. This sounds very faulty to me. In this situation, I can see it being very bad for your relationship (you two working it out to be married or not) if you're the enforcer and policer of rules. Spend some time thinking and talking about what you need for this relationship to work, about the ground rules. In my relationship, hanging out with members of the opposite sex alone is not allowed. This works for us. This isn't too extreme. This helps me know that even if we are in a rough patch he isn't going to run to a friends shoulder, whos shoulder happens to be nice and warm and soft... and oh baby. Well, you get the picture. It's just a nice safe guard. Also, with how much time he spends at home compared to out and about. This can be discussed. Not in a way of you setting down the rules, but in a way of compromise and understanding and because you both want to please the other.

Ok, that was lengthy. I'm not capable of writing short things:P No matter what though, strive to have the Spirit with you and take things slow. Make sure to allow the quiet and time needed to hear the promptings of the Spirit. Hang in there, you're awesome!

[Just_A_Guy]

Good to see you back, Rachelle.

My branch president basically told me that because my husband is practically inactive at this point, that he didn't see the point in having any further action. I can see what he is getting at, and I accept his decision but I am a little confused. I don't feel as though the church is backing me up or offering my husband a chance at TRUE repentance for his actions. I'm scared that if he doesn't make a full repentance now, that this might happen again.

Has your husband confessed his role in the whole thing to proper priesthood authorities? If he has and is otherwise making a sincere attempt to live the Gospel and the BP decides "he's suffered enough", or whatever; than that's one thing. But you talk about your husband being "practically inactive at this point", in the present tense. I don't think it's unfair to require that your husband demonstrate his contrition towards the Lord as evidence of his contrition towards you.

But I know that a lot of that has to change now, and i'm not really sure where to begin. What is appropriate at this point as far as his social life goes? I understand that he needs to sort of "earn" those freedoms back in order to regain my trust. On the other hand, I don't want to press my thumb down on him 24/7 or else I fear I might overwhelm him and push him away.

Well, there's a fine line between "earning trust" and "punishment". The former is OK; the latter is not. That said: He cheated on you. He cheated on you. He forfeited every type of claim he might have on you and on your children, and you owe him nothing--yet you've given him a second chance. He should accept whatever standards you impose on him with a smile on his face, and he should thank you for being so concerned about the health of your marriage and his own spiritual welfare.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[LDSVALLEY]

No offense to you but your Branch President is an idiot. The church rules are very clear on what should happen. And the one going on a mission is not worthy to do so from everything I understand. I agree this is very damaging to his salvation to not have to face church authority over this. It doesn't matter if he is active or not. A past Bishop of ours had the Stake do hearings for members who had to come out in years when they were seriously violating the covenants they had made.

Now because of the Branch President not doing as he is supposed to you are stuck. Because your husband is taking the steps he should to come back it might not work out too bad but he might not regain faith in the gospel if he is not held accountable.

As for the personal part I have no experience with this, the only advice I can suggest is 1) pray about it. 2) create a formal contract with your husband (work together on it). Express your worries and concerns as well as your understandings of what has happened. Draft a step plan for regaining of trust. That way he won't feel it will last forever nor will he be able to feel like he's off the hook.

#3 just came into my head when I typed #2. Pick up the 7 habits of highly effective families by Stephen R Covey. If is a very good book that will help with the things you are dealing with. He is also LDS although the book is not written just for LDS nor does he advertise the fact. It talks alot about family mission statements which is along the lines of #2. You could start with the short term contract and work together to create the mission statement. Have reading the book together as one of the steps. Your son also if he's not too young.

Last thing, I admire the fact that you are willing to open the door to the chance of rebuilding a relationship with your husband. It is less vulnerable to lock the door and open an new one then try and recreate something already broken. Set guidelines so if he starts reverting to old habits you don't think it's just a small step over the line and let it go until the next step etc. Keep the line firm but don't stand on his foot to prevent him from moving either.

If your going to step on any bodies foot step on the branch president's maybe he'll smarten up! Hope things work out for you.

[ryanh]

No offense to you but your Branch President is an idiot.

Criticism - Elder Oaks

[ryanh]

Rachel, you are in a pretty unique spot with your situation. What a load all at once to deal with.

I like Alana's advice to not worry about the woman. It is not our part to judge, and we can be assured that no one will escape dealing with their sins. She's not going to be getting away with anything.

Seems to me that his continued effective treatment has to first and foremost for things to work. If I were in your position, I'd want to be ensuring I was protected from a repeat of what happened in May. You don't want him forgetting who he is again. Perhaps you are already comfortable regarding treatment?

Just take it slow and try to be patient. Not all the details have to be worked out right now. You two can come to a decision where he feels that your participation in his personal life is not oppressive, but is enough for you to feel comfortable in knowing what is going on.

I'm wondering though, did you know he was coming back, or did he just "show up" and tell you he was being treated and wanted to get back together? Just wondering if he might be in a mania phase and giving you a story re counseling and treatment.

[jadams_4040]

The title says it all. I wasn't intending on him ever coming back, and I certainly wasn't intending on him getting hooked up with a psychologist and apologizing profusely and actually making sincere amends to try and repair the damage he has caused.

I am very confused. This really truly feels like a sincere effort with the potential to be fixable with the right aid (marital counseling and medication for his disease). But I am hesitant.

I certainly am no longer angry with him for the affair, or the nasty things he did and said afterwards because I KNOW it wasn't really him. I have Bi-Polar disorder that is more severe than his is, and I know that when unmedicated you nearly forget who you are at times. Forgiveness is easy for me in this situation because I totally get why he behaved so nastily and with such little regard for my emotions or for our son.

However, the trust is severely damaged. Prior to this incident, my husband was allowed to do as he pleased with no interference or nagging from me of any sort. He could hang out with male buds whenever he liked, he could have female friends without me worrying about him doing something inappropriate. I didn't spy on his emails or phone calls. He was completely free to do what he liked without complaint or worry from me.

But I know that a lot of that has to change now, and i'm not really sure where to begin. What is appropriate at this point as far as his social life goes? I understand that he needs to sort of "earn" those freedoms back in order to regain my trust. On the other hand, I don't want to press my thumb down on him 24/7 or else I fear I might overwhelm him and push him away.

He also never faced any consequences from the church regarding his adultery or his desertion of me and my son. The only thing that the other woman faced was that she was told by her bishop to not contact my husband anymore. She still tries to send him letters and emails, he does not respond to them in any way. I appreciate that from him, but it still angers me that neither of them are being made to accept any form of responsibility from the church leaders. The other woman is still going on her mission too. I worry about a girl that immature going on a mission and being held at such a high level of responsibility.

My branch president basically told me that because my husband is practically inactive at this point, that he didn't see the point in having any further action. I can see what he is getting at, and I accept his decision but I am a little confused. I don't feel as though the church is backing me up or offering my husband a chance at TRUE repentance for his actions. I'm scared that if he doesn't make a full repentance now, that this might happen again.

I don't know, my train of thought is a little skewed right now. There are so many other details regarding this issue, but it would be too lengthy to type out right at this moment. I guess my question is this: where do we go from here? What can I do to help mend this? He may of cheated, but I have responsibility in this situation as well and I want to do my part to make this better.

You are an absolute angel, you shouldnt have to be going thru this kind of heck.

[LDSVALLEY]

My branch president basically told me that because my husband is practically inactive at this point, that he didn't see the point in having any further action.

Ryanh

I realize what I said was criticism about her branch President. But is we take the line above as correct in his statement to her then I stand by mine. I support my leaders and those of the church, at times I have not agreed with a direction but still supported because I knew 1) it had been prayed about and 2) it was in keeping with the directives of the church.

To ignore adultery both on the part of her husband and the women preparing for a mission is against church policy and damaging to both parties spiritual progression. I know as a mission leader I don't want her coming to our Ward if she is guilty of what is said.

Now I do realize that we misunderstand or misremember what someone tells us often. And I would hope this is the case here. But based on what was typed my response, I believe is appropriate.

But you are correct that we must be careful of criticizing others especially in Leadership positions. And yes I should have used more tact in my response I was just annoyed about such a thought process. I have seen the damage things like that cause in a Ward. If members see one person getting away with things the Bishop or Branch President should step into then they lose respect for the Leadership and don't listen when they cross a Line.

[lilered]

Ryanh: I would suggest that you take this whole thing one step and one day at a time. Assuming your husband understands that he needs to make the effort to regain your trust, hopefully he understands that this will be a process and will happen over time. I would suggest you ask him once to start attending church with you as a family, you start having family prayer and kneeling together as a couple, that you hold family home evenings, etc.. Realizing that this may take a few weeks to get implemented. The point is that this cousel is from the General Authorities and strengthens families. If he is willing, and does it with a pure heart, it should slowly start to rebuild the trust between you. Likewise, you may need to work on some issues at the same time. The main thing is stay close to the Lord, be obediant to his commandments, and ask for his blessings upon both of you and your family. Time and the Spirit will tell and heal wounded hearts

[kiwii]

I certainly am no longer angry with him for the affair, or the nasty things he did and said afterwards because I KNOW it wasn't really him.

Rachel, you believing that it "wasn't really him" may be part of the problem. Certainly he will never consider repentance if he does not hold himself accountable for his own actions. I also have some mental/emotional issues, so I'm saying this as someone who has been there -- who is there. I hope you will give this some thought. I'm sorry that you're in such a confusing situation. (Been there too!) I surely do sympathize with you and wish you the best.

[RachelleDrew]

1. His mania is kind of hard to describe. He is usually very manic for several weeks, manic to the point where he won't eat or drink anything for days and forgets where he lives. Then eventually, he starts coming down and after a few weeks is sunk in a deep depression.

I assumed he would eventually swing from his mania into depression and go "what in the world was I thinking???" However, his personality is that where when he feels guilty, he runs from it instead of dealing with it. Which is why I thought I would never get an apology or a request for forgiveness. Instead, when he reached his depression stage, he chose to go to a psychologist (which I have proof he is going, because I am now meeting with his psychologist myself weekly to assess his ability to care for our child. This was his idea) and chose to come back home and apologize to me.

This is a huge step for him, and I am impressed by it. Even if he and I don't work out I have a lot of respect for him as a human being for taking that step to improve himself.

Yes, my Branch President and her Bishop were both given confessions by my husband and his former mistress. Although she only contends that their relationship was purely emotional affair and not physical. He says otherwise, that not only was their relationship emotional, but that they have had sex too. I did see the two of them parked up town once on my way home from work at like midnight, but had no idea what they were doing. Frankly, I don't care if they were playing Parcheesi, a future missionary has no business in a parked car with a married man at midnight. That fact alone is damning enough for me.

I am aware of him having sex with a disease-infested loser that is not a member of the church. It was a one night stand, and not emotional in the least. Somehow that is less hurtful, i'm not sure why but him sleeping with her isn't really that painful as it is with the sister in the church.

2. His inactivity is very deliberate. He went and confessed to our branch president everything just shortly before he told me. I have no idea why, because he has told me (both back when he was manic, and just as recently as yesterday) that he doesn't know if he believes in the church anymore. Whatever, I sure WISH he would be an active member again, but if not it doesn't make me think badly of him or not want to be with him. After all, he married me when I wasn't a member. All I can do in that department is pray for him to want it. It's his choice.

He does still believe in God, and I have caught him praying and crying when he thought I wasn't home. He does want forgiveness from heavenly father, he just doesn't believe in the church as an entity apparently. So i'm not sure if asking God directly for forgiveness is good enough, or if he HAS to face some form of discipline from the church in order to repent. I'm not really certain of how that works, so that's why I ask. Is his salvation at stake if he confesses his sins to the Lord through prayer, but does not confess them to the church officials?

I thank you all for your insight and advice. We have already contacted LDS Family Services and are trying to get counseling from them. Only negative? The closest we can meet them for counseling is 3 hours away one way. We have found a non-denominational Christian counselor who has done a nice job of helping us through things. However, we would like the insight of someone within the church as well.

[MorningStar]

Rachelle, you are amazing! You are handling this better than most women would. Just remember - you have the right to expect certain things from him whether he is mentally stable or not. And there is nothing wrong with expecting him not to hang out with female friends, even if he had never done anything. That can lead to temptation for almost anyone. You deserve a marriage where you can feel safe and I hope you two can make it work. Prayers for you.

[RachelleDrew]

Rachelle, you are amazing! You are handling this better than most women would. Just remember - you have the right to expect certain things from him whether he is mentally stable or not. And there is nothing wrong with expecting him not to hang out with female friends, even if he had never done anything. That can lead to temptation for almost anyone. You deserve a marriage where you can feel safe and I hope you two can make it work. Prayers for you.

I appreciate it, but I am certainly not "amazing" in any fashion. I have responsibility in this. Yes, he chose to not take care of himself mentally by taking the correct medication or by not keeping his appointments with his doctors. Considering his past behavior when not medicated, he knew full and well that it could lead to self-destructive and hurtful behaviors. Thus, he (albeit inadvertently) chose to cheat. Even if he wasn't in a stable frame of mind, he still made the choice.

However,

I am quite controlling when it comes to that sort of thing. I made the choice to micro-manage his meds and his doctor visits prior to his "breakdown". I remember being a teen with bi-polar and my parents constantly were over my shoulder making sure I was behaving "normally". It's exhausting, and I would often rebel by not taking meds, or by manipulating my dosages. I feel this is what happened with my husband too. He is an adult, and perfectly capable of caring for his own mental well being, he doesn't need me picking at his every move regarding that issue, and I feel it contributed.

Also, I am very combative. There were many times during our last few chaotic months where he and I would start to argue, and instead of just dropping the subject or walking away, I chose to escalate the situation because I was "right" and he was "wrong". I don't back down from conflict, and I have a habit of cornering people and bashing them over the head verbally with my opinion because I feel like I can kowtow them into changing their minds.

This is useless in general, even more so when dealing with a person who is not able to use reason due to mania. I failed to realize that his perception was his reality, and that it was useless and damaging to argue. I said hateful and stupid things too.

Anyway, those negative traits of mine including others were also responsible for the damage that was done the last few months I have already taken steps to rectify these issues, and these negative traits WILL be corrected in their entirety before my husband and I reconcile completely. Or before we divorce and I marry someone else for that matter. I need to change these problems regardless of the outcome of my marriage.

Sorry this is all so long. There are just so many factors to this issue. I appreciate you guys listening and offering your opinions.

[Wingnut]

Rachel, you believing that it "wasn't really him" may be part of the problem. Certainly he will never consider repentance if he does not hold himself accountable for his own actions. I also have some mental/emotional issues, so I'm saying this as someone who has been there -- who is there. I hope you will give this some thought. I'm sorry that you're in such a confusing situation. (Been there too!) I surely do sympathize with you and wish you the best.

There's a long history here that has spanned several months and several threads. When severe mental illness comes into play, it can be accurate to say that "it wasn't really him" without actually being in denial about the situation.

[FunkyTown]

There's a long history here that has spanned several months and several threads. When severe mental illness comes into play, it can be accurate to say that "it wasn't really him" without actually being in denial about the situation.

I have some concerns of my own here.

As one who has lived with someone who had severe manic-depression, hearing the rather shocking news that the original poster also suffers from this changes some things. I would recommend the following:

1) Do not let him back in to your home or your life until at least 6-8 months has passed. This will allow you to know it is not his insanity doing this and that he is willing to take his pills long term. This will also indicate that you are not having your emotions toyed with by the illness.

2) Manic-Depression is a snake in the grass. He may very well be doing these things simply because he has stopped being manic. This doesn't indicate the problem has gone away, but rather that the stimulus that caused it has regressed. In a few months, he might very well be going through the same pattern.

3) Him 'rebelling' against you looking over his shoulder and making certain he gets his medication is childish. He knew the consequences of that and did it anyway despite being medicated at the time. That is not something that can easily be explained by manicness.

Now, you say you shoulder some of the blame. Perfect. Definitely work on those things, but definitely give this at least 6-8 months to make sure he isn't just doing what he thinks you should want. Manic-Depressives can sometimes be brilliant at hiding the symptoms for a little while. If you immediately forgive him, you will let him back in to your life. Worse, because you have admitted you suffer from worse manic-depression, this might not even be you being willing to let him back in.

[Carl62]

So i'm not sure if asking God directly for forgiveness is good enough, or if he HAS to face some form of discipline from the church in order to repent. I'm not really certain of how that works, so that's why I ask. Is his salvation at stake if he confesses his sins to the Lord through prayer, but does not confess them to the church officials?

Good question, Rachelle! That was the question I asked on my 'Forgiveness from God vs. Forgiveness from the Church' thread and 40 posts later, I STILL haven't gotten a direct answer on this. All I got was Mexican hat dancing around the topic.

[Moksha]

My Branch President basically told me that because my husband is practically inactive at this point, that he didn't see the point in having any further action.

This makes perfect sense to me. Why alienate your husband further from the Church, if you want both your husband and the Church in your life.

[LDSVALLEY]

Good question, Rachelle! That was the question I asked on my 'Forgiveness from God vs. Forgiveness from the Church' thread and 40 posts later, I STILL haven't gotten a direct answer on this. All I got was Mexican hat dancing around the topic.

While the closest I've come so far to a Bishopric (were waiting 2 plus months now for a new one so this might change) is Ward Clerk who attended most of the meetings. My understanding from the Manual of Instruction and what I've heard various leaders say is that serious sin adultery, addiction etc must be brought to the Bishop or Stake leadership for review. They are supposed to determine the extent of discipline required and in what manner they can best help the individual.

My understanding is those things can not be dealt with by the individual alone. Possibly because there is usually addiction issues that require help to overcome.

Too often I have seen leaders be soft or ignore serious issues to avoid causing more grief or upset to the individual involved and to prevent possibly driving people further away from the gospel. The issue is that this creates a movable boundary to what is right or wrong. This causes other members of the church to assume then that the line they are on is flexible as well.

Once we had an auxiliary leader talk to a member under their area about inappropriate appearance (it was a long term member who knew better and it had become a habit.) It was done quietly but the family of the member raised a big fuss, dropped all their callings and stopped coming to church. The Bishop at the time to avoid causing more problems didn't get involved at all. The result was the leader who had maintained church standards was smeared in the gossip mill. They stopped worrying about enforcing church standards at all and things got very bad very quickly in the auxiliary.

The family had already left so the Bishop getting involved would not have made it worse with them and might have gotten them to understand church standards need to be followed. (They did come back a few months later when they calmed down.) He would have supported the leader who was doing as the guidelines said they should and a melt down in the auxiliary would have been avoided greatly reducing the collateral damage. The Leader would have been seen as being supported and felt that support instead of being left hanging.

Everything I understand about the gospel and the church tell me it is very bad that the Bishop or Branch President didn't do something official about this situation. It might not require a full review council (although based on what has been said it seems it should) but the persons involved would be held accountable for their actions, and the Bishop or BP would be in a position of leadership which would allow them to offer guidance and leadership.

This is no different then if someone came up to me and said they saw my child take a video from a store without paying and I did nothing to avoid causing a scene with them. No one wins.

[Wingnut]

Good question, Rachelle! That was the question I asked on my 'Forgiveness from God vs. Forgiveness from the Church' thread and 40 posts later, I STILL haven't gotten a direct answer on this. All I got was Mexican hat dancing around the topic.

Being that nobody here is God or otherwise in a position to offer you forgiveness, either from Him or from the Church, perhaps that's why you haven't received a direct answer. It might be more helpful to talk to a real-life person who is in that kind of position.

[ryanh]

I have some concerns of my own here.

As one who has lived with someone who had severe manic-depression, hearing the rather shocking news that the original poster also suffers from this changes some things. I would recommend the following:

1) Do not let him back in to your home or your life until at least 6-8 months has passed. This will allow you to know it is not his insanity doing this and that he is willing to take his pills long term. This will also indicate that you are not having your emotions toyed with by the illness.

2) Manic-Depression is a snake in the grass. He may very well be doing these things simply because he has stopped being manic. This doesn't indicate the problem has gone away, but rather that the stimulus that caused it has regressed. In a few months, he might very well be going through the same pattern.

3) Him 'rebelling' against you looking over his shoulder and making certain he gets his medication is childish. He knew the consequences of that and did it anyway despite being medicated at the time. That is not something that can easily be explained by manicness.

Now, you say you shoulder some of the blame. Perfect. Definitely work on those things, but definitely give this at least 6-8 months to make sure he isn't just doing what he thinks you should want. Manic-Depressives can sometimes be brilliant at hiding the symptoms for a little while. If you immediately forgive him, you will let him back in to your life. Worse, because you have admitted you suffer from worse manic-depression, this might not even be you being willing to let him back in.

I wish there was a "no thanks" or "vehemently disagree" button. I'm actually surprised that there were some that agreed with that post.

I think that Rachel has a far better grasp of BP that a person who has "lived with someone that had" BP I. I'm not sure how you feel it's of benefit to anyone to say "shocking news that the original poster also suffers from this", or call her condition "a snake in the grass". Do you really know she or her husband has BP I? Or perhaps she or her husband has BP II? Do you even know the difference?

It is also readily evident that she knows far more about treating and controlling the symptoms than you.

You should also be aware of comorbid disorders that often present themselves with various mental illnesses. So what you think you know about BP may actually be aspects of other disorders combined with BP. Painting other children of our HF with such a broad brush is an unfortunate and painful thing to observe.

While in the process of labeling behaviors of those that are hurting in mean ways (kicking them while they are down IMO), perhaps we should label "making certain he gets his medication is childish" as brutish, arrogant, and unbecoming of a follower of Christ.

I think you owe Rachel an apology for being so harsh and coming off as uncaring.

[ryanh]

This is no different then if someone came up to me and said they saw my child take a video from a store without paying and I did nothing to avoid causing a scene with them. No one wins.

Apples and Oranges. Teaching vs repentance. No one is forgiven via dicipline. Repentenance can only happen of one's own volition.

My understanding is those things can not be dealt with by the individual alone.

Conversely, Rachel's husband's 'things' cannot be dealt with the by Church alone. He has to be a willing and wanting participant in the repentance and disipline process. How would dicipline be of any benefit? It would be akin to yelling at a masochist and expecting it to cause them discomfort!

Once we had an auxiliary leader talk to a member under their area about inappropriate appearance (it was a long term member who knew better and it had become a habit.) It was done quietly but the family of the member raised a big fuss, dropped all their callings and stopped coming to church. The Bishop at the time to avoid causing more problems didn't get involved at all. The result was the leader who had maintained church standards was smeared in the gossip mill. They stopped worrying about enforcing church standards at all and things got very bad very quickly in the auxiliary.

The family had already left so the Bishop getting involved would not have made it worse with them and might have gotten them to understand church standards need to be followed. (They did come back a few months later when they calmed down.) He would have supported the leader who was doing as the guidelines said they should and a melt down in the auxiliary would have been avoided greatly reducing the collateral damage. The Leader would have been seen as being supported and felt that support instead of being left hanging.

Everything I understand about the gospel and the church tell me it is very bad that the Bishop or Branch President didn't do something official about this situation. It might not require a full review council (although based on what has been said it seems it should) but the persons involved would be held accountable for their actions, and the Bishop or BP would be in a position of leadership which would allow them to offer guidance and leadership.

Wow, you sure are willing to be openly critical of local leadership in this thread. Neither you, nor I have any clue as to what promptings your bishop, or Rachel's Branch Pres might have had. They may have dealt with each situation with Solomon-type wisdom guided by the Spirit, yet because it isn't how our natural man would have handled it, we are left kicking against the pricks and damning ourselves. Not cricicizing leadership is not a ploy to keep membership in line. I trust it is a spiritual principal for OUR benefit, not the leader's or the Church's.

[FunkyTown]

I wish there was a "no thanks" or "vehemently disagree" button. I'm actually surprised that there were some that agreed with that post.

I think that Rachel has a far better grasp of BP that a person who has "lived with someone that had" BP I. I'm not sure how you feel it's of benefit to anyone to say "shocking news that the original poster also suffers from this", or call her condition "a snake in the grass". Do you really know she or her husband has BP I? Or perhaps she or her husband has BP II? Do you even know the difference?

It is also readily evident that she knows far more about treating and controlling the symptoms than you.

You should also be aware of comorbid disorders that often present themselves with various mental illnesses. So what you think you know about BP may actually be aspects of other disorders combined with BP. Painting other children of our HF with such a broad brush is an unfortunate and painful thing to observe.

While in the process of labeling behaviors of those that are hurting in mean ways (kicking them while they are down IMO), perhaps we should label "making certain he gets his medication is childish" as brutish, arrogant, and unbecoming of a follower of Christ.

I think you owe Rachel an apology for being so harsh and coming off as uncaring.

I think maybe you should go back and read the many, many posts that have led up to this, Ryan.

Long story short: Her husband cheated on her, claimed to be in a relationship with someone who was going on a mission who vehemently denied being involved with him. He has been emotionally abusive, uncaring and a vile human being. In fact, the original poster even mentioned that he had been taking medication for his disorder and chosen to stop taking it despite knowing the consequences.

So no, I will not apologize for telling the simple truth: Immediately getting back together with him when he has shown in the past he is untrustworthy with basic things such as taking his medication despite knowing the consequences would be a bad idea.

A few weeks of attending therapy is not indicative of a changed person. She should be very wary, if not for her sake, for her children's sake. If he acts even remotely close to what she has described him as acting for months on end now, getting back to him because he says he's sorry and because he has gone to the Doctors for a few weeks is not a good idea.

Having an emotionally abusive, cheating, self-centered jerk around will not make her child happy nor will it give her child the stability her child needs. She has claimed she suffers from the same disorder - If so, she should know that a few weeks do not indicate a change in behaviours. If he is truly repentant, he should be willing to make the long road back his horrible breach of trust requires.

I still would suggest, Rachel, that you not leap back in to a relationship with this man. Everything you have described this man as suggests he will do exactly the same thing again and again. By making him wait, you protect yourself and your child. If he is truly repentant and willing to change, then he will take his medication and be willing to work to get back in the relationship. If he is not willing to follow the long and painful process of repentance, you will have protected yourself and your child.

[ryanh]

Before I posted on the topic, I did just that. I'm well aware of the situation. Interesting that you would assume that I did not.

So no, I will not apologize for telling the simple truth: Immediately getting back together with him when he has shown in the past he is untrustworthy with basic things such as taking his medication despite knowing the consequences would be a bad idea.

You KNOW that is not what I pointed out as needing an apology. I agree with your opinion that she should not "immediately get[] back together with him", and I included something similar in my original post. But I didn't even touch upon that in the post you quoted did I?

What I did touch upon was calling her behavior "childish", or her condition as "shocking news" and a "snake in the grass". Have some compassion man. She's the one dealing with a difficult situation, not you - you should deal with your anger towards BP in a different thread or venue, or choose to not comment when your feelings are more eminent in your mind than that of the poster asking for help. Act like a baptized member as Alma describes: "Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, . . ."

I recognize I'm being harsh in calling this out. But it is not easy to see my Sister being called names when she doesn't deserve it. That goes for all the posts I see on lds.net where, apparently because of anonymity, people are so willing to say hurtful things to their brothers and sisters. Quite unbecoming.

[FunkyTown]

Ah. I apologize that you completely misread my post, then. I didn't call her childish. I called his behaviour in petulantly refusing to take his medication childish. Just because she is looking over his shoulder doesn't mean he should risk his family like that - And she should.

Secondly, I'd like you to go to:

Snake in the grass - Idiom Definition - UsingEnglish.com

This idiom means "Someone who is a snake in the grass betrays you even though you have trusted them."

Manic-Depression is very much a snake in the grass because people can go months without any outward symptoms. Just because he's seeming trustworthy now does not mean he will be in the future. ESPECIALLY since he refused to take medication.

I am sorry that you completely misread what I was saying, but I never called her names. I was simply stating the honest truth: Jumping back in to a relationship with him right now is very dangerous.

Before I posted on the topic, I did just that. I'm well aware of the situation. Interesting that you would assume that I did not.

You KNOW that is not what I pointed out as needing an apology. I agree with your opinion that she should not "immediately get[] back together with him", and I included something similar in my original post. But I didn't even touch upon that in the post you quoted did I?

What I did touch upon was calling her behavior "childish", or her condition as "shocking news" and a "snake in the grass". Have some compassion man. She's the one dealing with a difficult situation, not you - you should deal with your anger towards BP in a different thread or venue, or choose to not comment when your feelings are more eminent in your mind than that of the poster asking for help. Act like a baptized member as Alma describes: "Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, . . ."

I recognize I'm being harsh in calling this out. But it is not easy to see my Sister being called names when she doesn't deserve it. That goes for all the posts I see on lds.net where, apparently because of anonymity, people are so willing to say hurtful things to their brothers and sisters. Quite unbecoming.

[beefche]

Wow, ryanh, you REALLY need to go back and slowly read Funky's posts again. He in no way was criticising or calling Rachelle names. He was commenting on her husband's behavior.

Edited July 22, 2009 by beefche
thanks guy for alerting me to my misspellilng