Liberals/Conservatives

[beefche]

As I was thinking about my political beliefs, I began wondering what really makes one a "liberal" or "conservative."

Who defines one as a liberal? How does one determine he/she is a conservative?

[annewandering]

Good question. I don't define myself as either but other people do.

Conservatives seem to define themselves by the value they place on their rights.

Liberals seem to define themselves by the value they place on other peoples rights.

In rl the two probably cross over a lot but it seems on forums and blogs they are pretty strongly one or the other.

[Guest Godless]

If you scream, whine, and hold protests to try to get the government to change things, then you're probably a liberal.

If you scream, whine, and hold protests whenever the government tries to change things, then you're probably a conservative.

/thread

[annewandering]

If you scream, whine, and hold protests to try to get the government to change things, then you're probably a liberal.

If you scream, whine, and hold protests whenever the government tries to change things, then you're probably a conservative.

/thread/QUOTE]

lol you might be right.

[Jbs2763]

you have a gun permit...you can't be a liberal...

[bytor2112]

The problem is that our government is full of liberals and those that are even more liberal. There aren't any conservatives....just Republicans and Democrats....different wings of the same bird. Personally, I hate the terms.

I am an advocate for smaller more effective, responsive government that serves the interest of the citizenry it represents.

[Elphaba]

The problem is that our government is full of liberals and those that are even more liberal. There aren't any conservatives....just Republicans and Democrats....different wings of the same bird. Personally, I hate the terms.

Are you saying the Republicans in office are liberals?

[bytor2112]

Are you saying the Republicans in office are liberals?

Yes. (maybe a more apt description would be.......big government statists)

[Kawazu]

Yes. (maybe a more apt description would be.......big government statists)

Could it also be said that the liberals are not liberals, (i.e. for individual liberty?)

[boyando]

Are you saying the Republicans in office are liberals?

In the real world, Republicans are politicians first, and conservatives last, if at all.

[Jbs2763]

The problem is that our government is full of liberals and those that are even more liberal. There aren't any conservatives....just Republicans and Democrats....different wings of the same bird. Personally, I hate the terms.

I am an advocate for smaller more effective, responsive government that serves the interest of the citizenry it represents.

i'd just call them all d-bags

[NeuroTypical]

Rule of thumb: If you're for a government solution of some kind, odds are you're thinking like a liberal (there are exceptions). If you're for keeping government the heck out of whatever solution you're thinking about, odds are you're thinking like a conservative (there are exceptions).

Some obvious exceptions: Wars, foreign policy, whatever you find in the constitution.

LM

[boyando]

To me, a true conservative is a King Benjamin. Serving others and not really concerned about the power.

To a liberal, a true liberal is like King Benjamin. Serving others and not really concerned about the power.

So what is the difference? A conservative looks for results. A liberal just wants to feel good.

[bytebear]

I consider myself a libertarian and a federalist, but since there is no major political party which fits my ideals, I have to choose the ideology which will best serve my ideals. Unfortunately, neither party has done a very good job in recent years, although I think the Obama administration has gone full throttle in the wrong fiscal direction.

[Maxel]

I see it like this:

The two terms- 'conservative' and 'liberal'- seem to have taken on two different meanings that get intertwined in political discourse.

Socially: Conservatives are for 'traditional values' and usually adhere to classic Judeo-Christian ethics. Pro-traditional marriage, pro-life, pro-gun ownership (three big issues).

Liberals are for 'progressive values' and often adhere to moral relativism or a more liberal version of the classic Judeo-Christian ethics. Pro-same sex marriage, pro-choice, pro-gun control.

Economically/Politically: Conservatives are for small government and a free market. Programs that expand governmental control and influence are no-no's.

Liberals are for more powerful government and an economic market regulated by said government. Programs that expand governmental control and influence seem like good ideas to liberals.

That's what I've gleaned from the past 6 months inundated in political discussion. Others might claim that the economic ideals I say are embraced by conservatives are also embraced by 'classic liberalism'- I wouldn't know about that.

[Traveler]

As I was thinking about my political beliefs, I began wondering what really makes one a "liberal" or "conservative."

Who defines one as a liberal? How does one determine he/she is a conservative?

It use to be that a Liberal believed in individual rights and limited government control.

It use to be that a conservitive believed in strong government responsibility and control.

Current politics has changed everything so no one know which is which.

The Traveler

[Moksha]

The problem is that our government is full of liberals and those that are even more liberal. There aren't any conservatives....just Republicans and Democrats....different wings of the same bird. Personally, I hate the terms.

I am an advocate for smaller more effective, responsive government that serves the interest of the citizenry it represents.

Know what you mean, back to the basics where each tribe had its leader and shaman, and those with "artistic" inclinations were relegated to the back of the cave, making drawings on the wall.

:)

[Guest Godless]

Conservatives - everyone gets a different sized slice of a huge pie (the pie is big because everyone competes, everyone is rewarded for working hard)

Millions of hard-working Americans are still waiting for their "reward". Face it, back-stabbing and taking shortcuts are rewarded far more often in our society than hard work.

Liberal - everyone gets the same size slice from a very small pie. (except those in charge, they get large slices, leaving everyone else with crumbs - although less is produced due to no personal accountability, no rewards for work - everything goes to the gov - no incentives to work - so no one really gets a big piece)

That's an extreme perspective. Contrary to what some people may think, capitalism and liberalism are not mutually exclusive. Liberal policies simply intend (intend being the key word here) to regulate corporations to avoid exploitation and shady business practices while simultaneously helping hard-working Americans make ends meet by offering public options for services that workers can't afford and by adjusting the tax burden.

Extreme of liberal = socialism/communism/fascism (radical authoritarian tells everyone what to do)

In practice, communism has always degenerated into totalitarianism. However, and ideal application of socialist/communist ideals would not do so. Let's not forget that it was socialists and communists that stood up for oppressed workers during the Industrial Revolution and the Great Depression. Because of those extreme leftists, we now have safe working environments, child labor laws, and a semi-effective wage system. You're welcome.

Extreme conservative = Anarchist (no gov, everyone fends for themself, does whatever they want.)

This always leaves me scratching my head. You're not the first person I've seen equate radical conservatism (specifically libertarianism) with anarchism. My understanding of the anarchist concept has always been of a communal society rather than a lawless and chaotic one. Laws still exist, but they are enforced by citizens, not governments. Anarchy, after all, is the absence of government, not the absence of laws and rules. Society will always have rules, even without government.

[Elphaba]

In the real world, Republicans are politicians first, and conservatives last, if at all.

I think that's probably true of every politician, regardless of his/her respective party.

I still maintain most of our representatives are doing the best they can. I don't believe they're all there for the money or power. I think they genuinely care about their constituents.

I have worked on four political campaigns, and three of them were totally committed to the integrity of their office.

Sis

[FunkyTown]

I think that's probably true of every politician, regardless of his/her respective party.

I still maintain most of our representatives are doing the best they can. I don't believe they're all there for the money or power. I think they genuinely care about their constituents.

I have worked on four political campaigns, and three of them were totally committed to the integrity of their office.

Sis

The difference between the two can be summarized as follows:

1) A Liberal believes in Oliver Wendell Holmes statement that 'The Right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins.' They believe that the natural instinct of corporations as entities dedicated entirely to profit will be to be dedicated entirely to profit even at the expense of humanity. They believe that corporations will naturally abuse the power given if left unchecked, as they have countless times before. Corporations and governments may both be corrupt, but a corrupt government can be voted out in four years time.

2) A conservative believes in Oliver Wendell Holmes statement that 'The right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins.' They believe that the natural instinct of government as entities dedicated entirely to governing is that they will govern. They believe that the natural inclination of any governing body is to increase bureaucracy at the expense of the common man and that any entity given right of rulership must be watched for signs of tyranny. They believe the natural inclination to govern will be abused to tyranny as it has countless times before. Corporations and government may both be corrupt, but a corrupt corporation doesn't have the backing of the military and one can always choose to purchase through another company.

3) Absolutely, one hundred percent of anyone who doesn't agree with whatever political philosophy the current speaker has: Conservativism or progressivism, are fools and tyrants who either don't understand the consequences of following that satan-inspired political agenda or are actively trying to destroy the rights of others.

Edited September 8, 2009 by FunkyTown

[beefche]

I think that's probably true of every politician, regardless of his/her respective party.

I still maintain most of our representatives are doing the best they can. I don't believe they're all there for the money or power. I think they genuinely care about their constituents.

I have worked on four political campaigns, and three of them were totally committed to the integrity of their office.

Sis

I'm losing faith that this is true. I think that our political positions are becoming more and more like Hollywood. Fame, at any cost, is more important that what the job entails.

[Guest]

"Convervative" and "Liberal" the American Way is vastly different from any other definition of the words outside of America due to some shift in leadership within American History (most notably in the split from Britain and then at the time of FDR).

Basically, the difference lies in the following:

A = On one hand: The rights of the individual is greater than the interest of society

B = On the other hand: The rights of the individual is subservient to the good of society as a whole

Liberalism is group A and to counterpoint, conservatism is group B.

Before America became its own country, liberalism (as the term connotates) meant that government should be limited in regulating personal liberty and economic enterprise. Conservatism is the counterpoint to liberalism, where a society's tradition and faith is put ahead of personal liberty and economic enterprise. So, in Britian in the 17th and 18th centuries, liberalism is in group A, while conservatism is in group B.

But then, America ceded and they created their own constitution and successfully shifted the liberal vs conservative paradigm because of the introduction of personal acquisition of property which was lacking in the British feudal system which in-turn introduced the concept of a free-market with limited government regulation. Also, the separation by States introduced State's rights which muddied it some more.

Conservativism maintained that the State is the Society.

Then the Great Depression happened, so then liberalism started expanding their foundation to include protection of the individual from the perils of the free-market system. They started to include that the government can best support the interest of the individual by regulating the economy and providing "safe-haven" welfare for its citizenry.

So, group A versus group B has now expanded to:

Group A - liberalism

1. The rights of the individual is greater than the interest of society in social and moral issues. (e.g. abortion rights, gay marriage rights, etc.)

2. The interest of the individual is better promoted by regulating the economy. This includes government-imposed market correction and consumer protection.

3. The government is responsible for individual welfare. This includes social security for seniors, stringent health and safety regulations, unemployment protection, minimum wage mandate, government grants for the needy, affirmative action for minorities, etc.

4. The government is responsible for environment preservation.

5. The federal government protects the rights of individuals over the states.

6. Progressive taxation on income prevents any individual from having too much burden.

Group B - conservatism (counterpoint to liberalism)

1. Individual rights are representative of attendant moral, religious, political, and civil rights.

2. Free market and personal acquisition of property is good for the society as a whole.

3. Society is not responsible for individual happiness and government should not "take from society" to benefit an individual.

4. Environment preservation is an individual concern.

5. The federal government can only act in areas wherein the states themselves do not have the ability - that is, only limited to inter-state and foreign affairs.

6. Taxation should not be punitive.

So, as you can see, Group A and Group B really has gotten muddled from the first basic definition to the way it is defined now.

Edited September 8, 2009 by anatess

[ferretrunner]

As I was thinking about my political beliefs, I began wondering what really makes one a "liberal" or "conservative."

Who defines one as a liberal? How does one determine he/she is a conservative?

If you are a conservative and someone disagrees with you, that person is a (stinking) liberal. :)

If you're a liberal and someone disagress, he/she is entitled to his/her own opinion.

If you're a moderate, you can't make up your mind.

Edited September 9, 2009 by ferretrunner
correcting the "tipo" monster

[Palerider]

If you're a liberal and someone disagress, he/she is entitled to his/her own opinion.

If your a liberal and someone disagrees with you....you are a right wing wacko and a member of an Angry Mob....:D

Edited September 9, 2009 by Palerider

[annewandering]

A real source would be nice for that 'prophecy'.