wanting to convert...can't get past some things...

[Guest]

The addictive and chemical effects of coffee is cause enough to stay away from whether you're LDS or not. I stayed away from coffee waaaayyy before I even heard about LDS. It's a big No-No for athletes.

Why do you think people have a hard time giving it up? Because... it is addictive. Anything that gets you addicted reduces your power to choose freely.

Just my 2 cents.

Dance, I commend you for your courage. My husband is LDS, I was Catholic. I was convinced he was going to become Catholic. But lo and behold, after years of being married to an LDS guy, I gained a testimony of the apostasy and that was the start of my journey. It wasn't until months later that I gained testimony of the BofM and Joseph Smith. I truly believe in line upon line, precept upon precept. You gain a testimony of one thing which gives you a boost for the next thing until you find yourself with a burning desire to dive in fully. Have patience. God loves you.

[jadams_4040]

Hello there, so my basic story is that I married someone who is LDS...we were married at my church (Lutheran) I was raised in the Lutheran church and have a strong testimony of Jesus Christ. I pretty much attend LDS services with my husband. I don't dislike being Lutheran, but I desire to share the same faith as my husband. When we got married we talked a lot about our faiths and I never expected him to convert to my faith...I love him as he is and have alway had respect for his faith. He felt the same way towards me-we got married with the expectation that both faiths would be a part of our lives.

However, now with the addition of our wonderful son I desire us to be all of the same faith. We had him blessed in the LDS church. I wanted that for him and our family. My biggest road block to converting is two fold: I don't have a testimony of Joseph Smith...I've read too much about him and can't see him as a prophet. The other part is silly...I could never give up coffee...alcohol I can do without, coffee is not only an addiction that is physical and psychological-but cultural as well. Just as it is cultural for LDS persons not to drink coffee; it is part of my culture to drink it. Lutherans all gather 'round the coffe pot after service. My family drinks it...I can't imagine not sitting down with my mother over coffee.

Anyway, I wondered if anyone had any insights to offer me...I've discussed this all with my husband obviously...but he doesn't take me seriously...as I have dabbled with this same conflict long enough I think he figures I'll never really decide. Sorry for the long post....

once we experiance how great it is not to drink coffee; its very easy then on; coffee changes ones personality to something that is not true; it is fake it makes one say things they wouldnt usually say and do; after so many years of drinking it it started affecting me physically with tremors, dizziness, anger. it is definately not a help with maintaining the companionship of the spirit on a daily basis. and as far as J.S, we really need to be very carefull on what we choose to beleive; he was not perfect, he was human being, but also there are thousands of things in the internet media that are simply blown out of proportion or simply out and out lies, or just not understood; beleive me i had the same problems for many years; but understanding with prayer and study will help you come to a peace. dont focus on j.s. focus on how the spirit bleses you and your family as you become more obedient to the commandments, the blessings WILL and DO come, then slowly but surely you will come to a peace in your spirit that will confirm everything you need, it takes time; heavenly father isnt going to strike you with a sudden lightening bolt of information, he gives it to you as you can comprehend and accept all things.:)

[bytor2112]

once we experiance how great it is not to drink coffee; its very easy then on; coffee changes ones personality to something that is not true; it is fake it makes one say things they wouldnt usually say and do; after so many years of drinking it it started affecting me physically with tremors, dizziness, anger.

:huh:Changes your personality? Tremors, anger, dizziness? Sounds like instead of just cream and sugar..........a little Bushmills too, eh;)

Edited September 27, 2009 by bytor2112

[Guest]

:huh:Changes your personality? Tremors, anger, dizziness? Sounds like instead of just cream and sugar..........a little Bushmills too, eh;)

Bytor, I actually get this too. I am hyperactive and just a little dash of caffeine gets me pinging off the walls. I can't take the excedrin that has caffeine (extra strength I think is what it's called) because instead of getting rid of pain, it gives me a blazing migraine. I can literally feel myself starting to get fidgety. And, I get temperamental - even with just one big bottle of that Starbucks mocha from the cooler by the cashier at the grocery.

[Dr T]

Hi Dancing one. I pray God leads you into what you are to do with this and that he gives you ears to listen. Welcome to this site.

[Mahonri]

Mahonri, seriously do you really think that by being threatening-you will help me any? Seriously...and, I am not considering membership for social reasons...I've got friends thank you. Also, I didn't want this to turn into a WoW debate..."hot drinks" vs coffe and tea blah blah....I know that for me if I were to follow the WoW I would have to give up coffee...so no need to debate that.

CLEARLY I am not ready to be baptised...I know that. Thanks all for comments-I've got lots of prayer ahead of me!

Threats? goodness...?????

[Maureen]

once we experiance how great it is not to drink coffee; its very easy then on; coffee changes ones personality to something that is not true; it is fake it makes one say things they wouldnt usually say and do; after so many years of drinking it it started affecting me physically with tremors, dizziness, anger. it is definately not a help with maintaining the companionship of the spirit on a daily basis....

Are you confusing alcoholism with coffee drinking?

Just because this is how coffee affects you (and I am leery about that); I bet it is quite harmless to the majority of coffee drinkers. Actually moderate coffee drinking has been proven to be a health benefit.

M.

[Moksha]

Are you confusing alcoholism with coffee drinking?

Just because this is how coffee affects you (and I am leery about that); I bet it is quite harmless to the majority of coffee drinkers. Actually moderate coffee drinking has been proven to be a health benefit.

M.

Smells really good too. Mormons should refrain from drinking coffee, but I suspect these weird side effects are due to the devil being in the waters rather than the coffee. The coffee plant's only sin was that it was not valiant enough in the preexistance. Best to give it a break in terms of accusing it, so that it can maintain its repentance process without undue strain.

[talisyn]

Threats? goodness...?????

I didn't think you were threatening, either

[danceinthedark]

I didn't think you were threatening, either

I was referring to that poster saying that (and I'm simplifying) that if I continue to drink coffee-I wont be able to be with my son in heaven. That to me is a threatening statement. It doesn't make me want to know that Heavenly Father. The Christ and Lord that I know loves me and I have faith that I will be with my loved ones after I die...I don't have to do anything...Christ already died for ME. It is just such statements that get made that push me further away right when I am wanting learn more...

[cougarfan]

I was referring to that poster saying that (and I'm simplifying) that if I continue to drink coffee-I wont be able to be with my son in heaven. That to me is a threatening statement. It doesn't make me want to know that Heavenly Father. The Christ and Lord that I know loves me and I have faith that I will be with my loved ones after I die...I don't have to do anything...Christ already died for ME. It is just such statements that get made that push me further away right when I am wanting learn more...

I agree. Statements like that are ridiculous and don't accomplish anything. Whenever I hear someone say something like, "Don't let a small thing such as a cup of coffee keep you out of heaven" I usually reply with something like, "Isn't it sad that your concept of God is so small that he would keep someone out of heaven because of a cup of coffee."

[Guest]

I agree. Statements like that are ridiculous and don't accomplish anything. Whenever I hear someone say something like, "Don't let a small thing such as a cup of coffee keep you out of heaven" I usually reply with something like, "Isn't it sad that your concept of God is so small that he would keep someone out of heaven because of a cup of coffee."

I mostly agree with this statement except for one thing: In my mind, if I can't follow one simple rule, I'm in big trouble with the harder ones.

Luckily, I am in-line with the WoW before I even learned of LDS. Although, I struggle with the bigger commandments - like tithing and garments. I can't seem to see myself overcoming garments if I can't even overcome coffee, know what I'm saying? But then, everybody have their own challenges. So for some, garments might be the easy one and coffee the harder one, or however it differs between individuals. The thing really is to gain a testimony of the gospel, gain a testimony of the prophets, and the rest will follow.

[JohnnyRudick]

Mahonri, seriously do you really think that by being threatening-you will help me any? Seriously...and, I am not considering membership for social reasons...I've got friends thank you. Also, I didn't want this to turn into a WoW debate..."hot drinks" vs coffe and tea blah blah....I know that for me if I were to follow the WoW I would have to give up coffee...so no need to debate that.

CLEARLY I am not ready to be baptised...I know that. Thanks all for comments-I've got lots of prayer ahead of me!

Where did all that come from?

We are mostly all friendly here and don't bite at all:D

Really;)

[JohnnyRudick]

I mostly agree with this statement except for one thing: In my mind, if I can't follow one simple rule, I'm in big trouble with the harder ones.

Luckily, I am in-line with the WoW before I even learned of LDS. Although, I struggle with the bigger commandments - like tithing and garments. I can't seem to see myself overcoming garments if I can't even overcome coffee, know what I'm saying? But then, everybody have their own challenges. So for some, garments might be the easy one and coffee the harder one, or however it differs between individuals. The thing really is to gain a testimony of the gospel, gain a testimony of the prophets, and the rest will follow.

I know this is a little late (closing the barn door after the cows are out) but it has always bothered me as to why a LDS boy or girl would make it so the much more complex a situation (the Eternal Marriage, Sealing, etc) by marring outside the Covenant:mellow:

[cougarfan]

I know this is a little late (closing the barn door after the cows are out) but it has always bothered me as to why a LDS boy or girl would make it so the much more complex a situation (the Eternal Marriage, Sealing, etc) by marring outside the Covenant:mellow:

I think it has something to do with falling in love.

[LDSVALLEY]

Once again I didn't take time to ready all the replies so might be repeating.

I too had a hard time with Joseph Smith at first. But three things got me through it until I had a testimony of it.

The first is when I prayed about the Book of Mormon God confirmed to me it was true and that the church was true. How could it be true if Joseph Smith was not?

Second In early 1800's rural America the youth of farmers had little education. Joseph Smith could not possibly have known enough of the world to create the things in the Book of Mormon at that time. Even the shape of the America's was not clear, especially South or West. His education and the books available to him simply would not give him what he would have had to know to create the illusion.

Third, I freely believe a young man with no real chance of being more then a dirt farmer might make the whole Book of Mormon, God visited me etc story up. What a way to get attention and maybe wealth after all. However when he first began speaking about God's visit he was abused and tormented. If I was a teenager I might say these thngs happened but when the response was pain and being a laughingstock I would quickly forget it or confess I had made it up. The only way I would keep saying it was if it was true. Having had that experience why would any sane person continue on into the Book of Mormon etc. I have to assume he loved his parents, siblings, wife and children. Why would he allow them to be driven from home after home, loose all possesions and many their lives in support of a hoax? The only logic I could find was it has to be true, no other logic flows.

As to you've read so much about Joseph Smith you can not allow the chance he might be right and they wrong. Let me give you a historical incident. In the early 1800's railroads began to be built driven by steam engines. Nothing had ever been seen before. In England where most of this was taking place men of learning, in science, medical, construction etc said that if a train was to go 30mph there would not be enough air for people to breath and everyone would die. They produced evidence to support the claim. Thousands gathered to watch the first run of the train and see how many would die. I figure you can know how many could not breath at 30mph. Those same learned men quickly created new evidence to support why it was possible.

You can find evidence to prove or disprove every theory of man. We find two points then fill in the middle with theory to create the logic but all too often that logic of man changes as new points are discovered. Faith is believing in the absence of evidence. But theory is not always evidence. I can not prove with evidence that Joseph Smith is real. But logic said it was the most likely explanation no matter what man said and faith along with study gave me the testimony to know it was real. Man can think what it wants in the end they have always proven themselves to be wrong.

[JohnnyRudick]

I think it has something to do with falling in love.

Is that why so many of us are cautioned about dating outside the church?

[davidroscoe]

Hello, danceinthedark.

I took the time to read all the post by everyone in this thread before putting in my two cents worth. I may be able to help some, at least its my hope.

The bible for the most part, is about those seeking salvation from God, or at least working out their salvation with God. This only becomes evident by example with reading about Jesus Christ. Even Jesus had to work out his salvation with God. Most people read the bible and in their mind hear a story, that they can not figure out how those things were possible. Its left to mistery for most.

God likes to make examples for everyone to see, and he does this with people who seek him out for their salvation. Its why they were written about, and why the storys wound up in the bible. If anyone else experainced those things seeking out God for their salvation they would recognize them in the bible. This being used for the sole purpose of conversion. Though i do not agree with the ones who put this together, God in his wisdom did allowe it. Those other denomination may change the wording of their bibles to fit what they think those things mean, add or remove parts, but they dont change the example.

Like myself, Joseph Smith also wanted to make his own version of the bible, by reinterpreting it. I also started my version, and pretty much got the same answer he did when i asked God if i could do that. The bible is sufficiant as it is, because of the example. The reason it is, is because of how God created man, in his image. God not only made man in his image, but also with his basic personality. Thats passed down from male to male through the generations. One man thinks like another for the most part. So if one man does somthing for the same reasons another did them, he gets the same result. So with that If anyone looks for God and salvation for the right reasons, they will be able to duplicate those experainces in the bible. Thats because God knows the hearts of mankind and the reasons they do things. If a persons heart isnt in the right frame of mind to seek salvation for their soul, they wont find anything. For the most part, their has to be selfhonesty, and honesty with God. Then their has to be a willingness to explore where that salvation might be, because we do the work, and God helps us find our way.

When the story of Joseph smith is read, many people just see a story, and they dont stop to see him as a example. When he went exploring his salvation and talking to different religons, he wasnt only seeking what was in his heart, he was made the example of what needs to be done, in order to figure out who was telling the truth. Anyone doing that finds out that each different church baptizes, even if you have already been. Thats because of athority, as another church wouldnt have any. Anyone doing this woud most likley understand they are in dispute, and dont really know anything. Then would boil down to understanding only God can show something like that. Since thats the example anyway. Which i have done. I think the bible says, faith without works is dead, meaning faith without action has no meaning. Fiath isnt believing, faith is what you do with what you know. Like faith in your family. You also saw something in your husband, and by some example chose him. Though the example he goes by that made him exceptable is not? Most wont find anything looking directley at the church, though they may see much more by looking at the people. And though there are some not so much the example, but there are some that are.

Then just to mention the coffee thing, its more to do with intended purpose of that which God created it for.

Hope i could help some,

Peace and Love in Jesus.

[ehkape]

Hi everybody,

I think it's sad this ended up in a WoW debate. Dance, I've got the feeling, thats' not your real concern. Having read a lot about Joseph Smith, I think I understand how you feel. The more you know about him, the less he seems to have been gods chosen prophet (at least until the end). I've grown up as LDS and served a full time mission, yet my concerns keep growing the more I study about him and early church history. So I can imagine your concerns are even greater coming from a Lutheran background.

I know many won't like to read that - but do you really have to be baptized to attend church together with your husband and son? Do you really have to believe everything thats said in sunday school or sacrament? I don't think so. You can still love the people and respect their faith. I know of people in my own ward, who have not been baptized and played an active part in our church community. There have even been callings - sure not as a teacher or something like that, but for activites etc.

So its possible to be part of it without being a member.

And the worst thing one could do is being baptized without believing in it. I can't imagine it would make you happy. But then - who am I to tell you what to do? I guess in the end it comes down to your own private descision made on your knees before our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

All the best to you and your family :)

[Hemidakota]

Hello there, so my basic story is that I married someone who is LDS...we were married at my church (Lutheran) I was raised in the Lutheran church and have a strong testimony of Jesus Christ. I pretty much attend LDS services with my husband. I don't dislike being Lutheran, but I desire to share the same faith as my husband. When we got married we talked a lot about our faiths and I never expected him to convert to my faith...I love him as he is and have alway had respect for his faith. He felt the same way towards me-we got married with the expectation that both faiths would be a part of our lives.

However, now with the addition of our wonderful son I desire us to be all of the same faith. We had him blessed in the LDS church. I wanted that for him and our family. My biggest road block to converting is two fold: I don't have a testimony of Joseph Smith...I've read too much about him and can't see him as a prophet. The other part is silly...I could never give up coffee...alcohol I can do without, coffee is not only an addiction that is physical and psychological-but cultural as well. Just as it is cultural for LDS persons not to drink coffee; it is part of my culture to drink it. Lutherans all gather 'round the coffe pot after service. My family drinks it...I can't imagine not sitting down with my mother over coffee.

Anyway, I wondered if anyone had any insights to offer me...I've discussed this all with my husband obviously...but he doesn't take me seriously...as I have dabbled with this same conflict long enough I think he figures I'll never really decide. Sorry for the long post....

Can you do the culture things in the presence of the Savior?

Do you really love the Savior in order to follow His servants when being counseled? If so, then have the faith in asking Him for the truth.

There is but one plan of salvation, one gospel, one prophet, one church, which belongs to GOD. Search them out with humility, and genuineness, on what the Spirit may reveal to you.

[Hemidakota]

Exactly....eventually as we mature in the gospel, the Holy Ghost will begin to present those truths that will edify us and benefit our salvation.

[Mahonri]

Joseph Fielding Smith was the first one I know of to use the line, "You aren't going to let a cup of coffee keep you from Eternal Life?"... in response to a sister who asked, "God isn't going to keep me out of His kingdom for a little cup of coffee is He?"

Gordon B. Hinckley later quoted him.

I suppose there are some LDS folks here who simply don't like what some prophets say.

We don't limit God, we limit ourselves through disobedience.

It was a simple question. A Prophet of God gave a simple answer.

First Law of Heaven... Obedience. (period)

[JohnnyRudick]

Joseph Fielding Smith was the first one I know of to use the line, "You aren't going to let a cup of coffee keep you from Eternal Life?"... in response to a sister who asked, "God isn't going to keep me out of His kingdom for a little cup of coffee is He?"

Gordon B. Hinckley later quoted him.

I suppose there are some LDS folks here who simply don't like what some prophets say.

We don't limit God, we limit ourselves through disobedience.

It was a simple question. A Prophet of God gave a simple answer.

First Law of Heaven... Obedience. (period)

Don't get me wrong. . .

But . . .

I think the Prophet was making a bigger point.

I believe he was wanting her to "think", "ponder", etc.

Now we must understand when non-LDS hears this - what they hear is

"God would send you to Hell for/(because of) a cup of coffee." Right? That is what they hear.

We must keep this in mind when talking to the uninitiated about such things.

Edited October 2, 2009 by JohnnyRudick

[prisonchaplain]

The addictive and chemical effects of coffee is cause enough to stay away from whether you're LDS or not. I stayed away from coffee waaaayyy before I even heard about LDS. It's a big No-No for athletes.

Why do you think people have a hard time giving it up? Because... it is addictive. Anything that gets you addicted reduces your power to choose freely.

I'd never encourage an LDS person to drink coffee. You abstain because your prophet revealed this as God's command for you. Sometimes we discover that God's commands are for health reasons. Not so, for coffee--at least not in general. It has fiber, which is good for so many of us. It is a mild stimulant. And, even it's purported health difficulties, are very short term--important for athletes, perhaps.

They are saying some good things about wine too--but I won't drink it. My church is united against any alcohol consumption. Many people could drink moderately, but we don't. I obey. I am in unity with God's people. But, I won't go around telling social drinkers that their health is in danger everytime some speculative report comes out. I don't look for vindication from science or medicine...though of course, it's cool when such happens.

Bottom line: For non-WoW Christians, coffee is addictive like air is. I enjoy them both.

[bytebear]

I agree and disagree with you PC. There are addictive properties in Coffee, otherwise it would be easier to give up that morning cup. And the benefits of wine can be had through grape juice without the negative aspects of alcohol.

That said, I would never tell someone they must give up coffee. We make that choice under covenant, and I cannot hold people to a higher law, when they have not yet accepted that law.