Unequal Opportunity

[lattelady]

Just recently my husband and I were watching t.v. and there was a man and his wife who were talking about being business owners in the Salt Lake City area and they were also committed members of the LDS church for decades. They decided at some point, because of doctrinal issues they began to have with the Church, that they must leave the Church. Suddenly, their business began to suffer. They found out that church leadership had been telling their patrons to stop giving business to them. It wasn't long before their family business that they'd run for many years went bankrupt.

I asked my husband, in shock, "Do you think that this kind of thing really happens?" He said that he knows that it does. He didn't know how OFTEN it happened, but knew it was true, because a pastor friend who had a church in a small town in Utah was also a rancher. The people in the predominantly LDS town didn't like Bible Church being started there, and they began refusing to do business with him. They wouldn't sell to him and wouldn't buy from him. He couldn't make a living there and was forced to leave.

Is this encouraged?

[beefche]

Why would you think this is actually encouraged by the Church? Honestly, this question makes me wonder if you know any of us here on this board.

"Leaders of the church"--are you talking about local leaders? As in bishops, and such? Are you talking about President Monson?

[NeuroTypical]

Do you remember the names of these business owners? SLC has more than a couple of people who make their living by talking smack about the church. You can find reasonable scholarly work by critics, but there's also a lot of hogwash and blatant lies being peddled out there. This sounds like the latter.

One lady got her book on Oprah's book list - in it, she claimed that once she went to her hairdressers in Provo, and was told that they wouldn't change her hairstyle without her preisthood holder husband's permission. GOOFY!

LM

[lattelady]

I would only be assuming which leaders they were referencing. They didn't say "President Monson"! So I'm guessing it was local leaders. I get the impression that it might be encouraged in certain situations, after hearing it from this couple--they said it was encouraged by church leaders.

"Honestly, this question makes me wonder if you know any of us here on this board." What do you mean? That's just the point! I don't know any of you...I'm not close friends with you, I'm just asking a question. This kind of thing has happened, that doesn't mean it's encouraged, but that's what I'm asking.

[lattelady]

I don't remember their names, but I might be able to find it if I searched online or something...? I know what you're saying, though, and I agree--not everyone is reputable or honest and sometimes people have ill motives. The other man I was talking about, though, happens to be an acquaintance and my husband knows his story;

[beefche]

No, you're not close friends with us, but you've been participating on this board for a little while. Other than doctrinal differences, I would think you would know that Mormons are normal people living in the world trying their best to live their lives. Why would you think the Mormon church actually encourages this kind of behavior? Is there anything that has occurred on this board that would make you think Mormons would encourage such behavior? Stupid, rude, and weird Mormons, but actually the "church" encourage it?

[Gwen]

do they have solid evidence the local leaders discouraged ppl from doing business with them? sometimes we jump to conclusions, like... i'm in a predominantly lds area, i stopped going to church, my business decreased, must be someone at church is telling ppl not to come to me for business..... logical right?

i'm not saying it's impossible that someone may have gossiped or there may be ppl telling others not to go there..... but it's not something the church condones or supports.

you see cases all the time where ppl assume things are happening for a reason they did not..... sometimes you may hear....

a black person say, i didn't get the job the white person did, must be cause i'm black.... sure it's not cause the other person was better for the job?

or the reverse i've heard just as much....

the black person got the job and not the white person... stupid afirmitative action, they were hired just to fill the quota of black ppl, i should have gotten that job.... ummm, are you sure?

or the situation we had discussed on here.... the gay guys were asked to stop kissing must have been cause they were gay.... sure it's not cause ppl are asked not to kiss in the area?

could all the statments be true? yeah, but they could also be false. sometimes you just don't know why things happen way they do.

i think it's just as possible that these ppl started having difficulty around the same time the left the chruch cause they are now doing the business on their own without the extra blessings that come from living the gospel... not the "blessings" of members doing business with them but the guinuine blessings that come from the lord in our lives.

without evidence my theory is just as good as theirs?

if they do have evidence then my entire post is uncalled for and i apologize... just something i have seen happen before and seems it might fit this situation.

[lattelady]

No, nothing on this board gives me that impression. Does that rule out the possibility that it could happen? I wasn't attacking the niceness of anyone on this board. I was asking, though, if the LDS church might recommend to church members, at times, that they pull away from "outsiders" and those who have left the faith, or make it hard for them to flourish in a predominately LDS community.

[beefche]

I think the reason why your question was so problematic for me is because I would think that by participating on this board, one would see that Mormons are made up of all kinds of people. Normal people trying their best to do what they think is right.

I'm reminded of my brother--a born again Christian. He asked me some questions of my beliefs that were on the wacky side. He had obviously been reading/listening to anti stuff. I was offended (but recognized he did it out of love) that he would think I have no thinking abilities and would actually believe some of that crap. I think I even said to him that I hoped my life and actions showed my beliefs--I try to live a Christ-like life as best I know how.

When questions like this are asked I get frustrated because I would hope that our words here show us that we try to live a Christian life as best we know how.

[Just_A_Guy]

Mormons do tend to be somewhat clannish--certain events in our history have bred a sort of "us vs. them" mentality into some of the old-timers. And local leadership can certainly order some pretty dumb/horrifying stuff (exhibit 1 being the Mountain Meadows Massacre).

But is this "encouraged", either by the doctrine or by the leadership in SLC?

Never.

[Truegrits]

No, nothing on this board gives me that impression. Does that rule out the possibility that it could happen? I wasn't attacking the niceness of anyone on this board. I was asking, though, if the LDS church might recommend to church members, at times, that they pull away from "outsiders" and those who have left the faith, or make it hard for them to flourish in a predominately LDS community.

Anything is possible...by anyone, anytime, anywhere.

However, I have never experienced, nor been aware of any situation where "we" have been encouraged to shun certain people. I would hope that has not happened. My experience has been the opposite...we are encouraged to reach out to those that are struggling, to help all in need...if some have left the church, or are questioning their faith, we are there to support them, not to abandon them.

I would take no part in ruining anothers business, nor their lives...and I cannot imagine any of the "leadership" I know, to promote/encourage such behavior.

[john doe]

It would be helpful if you could give out specifics, like the name, location, or type of business, so that we might be able to have a way to address this allegation. Short of that, this seems like a bomb tossed out to draw a certain response. Personally, as a resident of the Salt Lake area, I have never heard of a church leader of any stripe either encourage or discourage members about patronizing businesses based on church membership. It's not like there's a sign they hang in the stores that indicates whether the proprietor or manager is a member in good standing of the church. There must be more to this story than what you are saying. Maybe these people are just poor business people, do you have any idea how many businesses, both LDS-owned or not, fail each year?

[ploomf]

I've never heard of any church leadership counseling us to shun people who have left the church. I have several relatives who left the church (long time ago before I was born) and their biggest complaint was that they couldn't get members of their old wards to leave them alone. I guess it could happen, anything is possible, it just doesn't seem likely to me.

[prisonchaplain]

If someone left my church over doctrinal issues, and had made some noise in doing so, I doubt I would have to say anything. Members would likely not be comfortable doing business with someone who had publically disassociated with what they believe. Likewise, as a kid in the liberal Northwest, I remember a convenience store opening in our area that was reputed to be owned by the Unification Church (Moonies). None of our parents ever said anything, but none of us kids would shop there. In a small town, I'm sure this kind of thing happens a lot--not because of any religious policy, but just because people are social animals.

[Palerider]

Just recently my husband and I were watching t.v. and there was a man and his wife who were talking about being business owners in the Salt Lake City area and they were also committed members of the LDS church for decades. They decided at some point, because of doctrinal issues they began to have with the Church, that they must leave the Church. Suddenly, their business began to suffer. They found out that church leadership had been telling their patrons to stop giving business to them. It wasn't long before their family business that they'd run for many years went bankrupt.

I asked my husband, in shock, "Do you think that this kind of thing really happens?" He said that he knows that it does. He didn't know how OFTEN it happened, but knew it was true, because a pastor friend who had a church in a small town in Utah was also a rancher. The people in the predominantly LDS town didn't like Bible Church being started there, and they began refusing to do business with him. They wouldn't sell to him and wouldn't buy from him. He couldn't make a living there and was forced to leave.

Is this encouraged?

This kind of thing happens here in the part of the Bible belt I live in....the Baptists do the same thing around here.

[mnn727]

I don't doubt that somebody somewhere could possibly do that since we LDS are just people like everyone else and we're not perfect, but "The Church" whether the main leaders or local leaders would not do that.

I agree with the above poster saying "If someone left my church over doctrinal issues, and had made some noise in doing so, I doubt I would have to say anything. Members would likely not be comfortable doing business with someone who had publically disassociated with what they believe." especially if they were very vocal about it -- Sometimes you just get sick of people cutting down your beliefs everytime you see them and you start avoiding them.

Edited October 9, 2009 by mnn727

[Hemidakota]

Just recently my husband and I were watching t.v. and there was a man and his wife who were talking about being business owners in the Salt Lake City area and they were also committed members of the LDS church for decades. They decided at some point, because of doctrinal issues they began to have with the Church, that they must leave the Church. Suddenly, their business began to suffer. They found out that church leadership had been telling their patrons to stop giving business to them. It wasn't long before their family business that they'd run for many years went bankrupt.

I asked my husband, in shock, "Do you think that this kind of thing really happens?" He said that he knows that it does. He didn't know how OFTEN it happened, but knew it was true, because a pastor friend who had a church in a small town in Utah was also a rancher. The people in the predominantly LDS town didn't like Bible Church being started there, and they began refusing to do business with him. They wouldn't sell to him and wouldn't buy from him. He couldn't make a living there and was forced to leave.

Is this encouraged?

What is shocking is secondhand stories always point to and blame church leaders on everything goes bad in life. Unless names of such claimed leadership is spelled out, then the problem lies in the couple who left the church and the Spirit left them to their own demise.

[Dravin]

I think PC makes an excellent point. If somebody informed me I was a fool of a Took for believing in all that nonsense I doubt I'd feel inclined to darken their businesses doors with my foolishness. Heck, how many people refuse to use one business or another because they felt some customer service person was rude, now imagine if they informed you your beliefs were stupid, now imagine it wasn't some telephone grunt, but the owner?

As far as shunning people who leave the church, no its not, as you've been told repeatedly by now, church policy.

[TheJoker]

Why would you think this is actually encouraged by the Church? Honestly, this question makes me wonder if you know any of us here on this board.

Why is anything done by anyone?

You cannot assume someone will not doing something if they are part of a particular faith.

A quote which i think you members will have heard:

"The church is perfect. The members are not."

So do not assume that someone will not do something just because they are LDS.

[beefche]

Joker, if you look at the question, it wasn't a matter of what members actually do, but rather if such action is encouraged by the church.

I know people will be people--but that doesn't mean that such actions are promoted by the church.

[TheJoker]

Joker, if you look at the question, it wasn't a matter of what members actually do, but rather if such action is encouraged by the church.

I know people will be people--but that doesn't mean that such actions are promoted by the church.

My bad. I misread. Thanks for the correction i apologize.

[lattelady]

Even if I had the couple's name (the SLC former business owners), which I don't because I didn't quickly write it down or anything as I was watching t.v., what would that do for you? If you were able to investigate who they were, you'd either have to take their word for what happened to them personally, or you'd discount what they said on t.v. because you'd see them as anti-Mormon and liars. Many of you have already concluded that you would probably stop giving your business to them if they left the Church; I didn't get the impression, from what they were saying, that they left the church angrily and ripped it to shreds with their words. So I don't know that I would choose to stop going to their store because their spiritual journey was taking them someplace else. No doubt, I would be deeply saddened by their choice; I would even feel personally that they were making the wrong choice. But because of what my husband and I do (my husband is a pastor), I think that continuing to love them and SHOW love to them would be the action I would take. UNLESS they were actively involved in slandering our church or badmouthing us. In that case, I'd try to appeal to them and hope they'd repent and do the right thing. But again, if they simply left our church because their beliefs changed, though I'd feel sorrow for their decision I hope I would not close my heart off to them and purposely steer clear of them.

[beefche]

Many of you have already concluded that you would probably stop giving your business to them if they left the Church;

Please show me how you came to this conclusion. The only ones that remotely came close to saying this was prisonchaplin, mm27, and dravin.

[lattelady]

SOME of you have already concluded that you might stop giving your business to them if they left the Church. That would be more accurate, I guess. I apologize.

[beefche]

Thank you for your apology. It's interesting that one of the 3 is not LDS.