A better question than who is a Christian

[prisonchaplain]

Are Mormons Christians? The question probably irritates many, and surely raises up all kinds of defenses. The past several threads dancing around this issue convince me that the question is nebulous, and ultimately not terribly useful. I think I have a better question. Can we recognize each other's baptisms?

In the case of Roman Catholicism, the answer is negative. Response on the validity of baptism conferred by «mormons»

My guess is that most Protestant churches would be the same, and that your church also would suggest that non-LDS churches do not have proper authority to conduct baptisms, so that anyone converting would also have to be baptized, regardless of past ones. For example, I have been baptized twice. Once as an infant, in a Lutheran Church, and then again as a converted adolescent, in an Assemblies of God church. If I were to convert, I imagine I would be asked to receive baptism yet again.

So, what does this tell us? Far more useful than who is or is not a Christian, it tells us that we are serving the same Jesus, but that our doctrines and practices are such, that we do not have enough "like precious faith," to recognize one another's ordinances. We talk with each other, pray for each other, and may have our opinions about who will end up where...but there are some dividing lines, mostly along the lines of content, not character.

[StallionMcBeastly]

You're correct. If you were to join the LDS church, you would be baptized again. We believe we're the only church with the authority to perform essential ordinances (such as baptism).

Are Mormons Christian? Yes. Why? Because we believe in Christ and follow him to the best of our ability.

There are those who claim we aren't Christian because we don't have the exact same doctrines and beliefs as they do.

As I said in the other thread, you are Christian if you believe in Christ and desire to follow him.

There's no authoritative statement on what a "Christian" exactly is.

[Traveler]

  prisonchaplain said:

Are Mormons Christians? The question probably irritates many, and surely raises up all kinds of defenses. The past several threads dancing around this issue convince me that the question is nebulous, and ultimately not terribly useful. I think I have a better question. Can we recognize each other's baptisms?

In the case of Roman Catholicism, the answer is negative. Response on the validity of baptism conferred by «mormons»

My guess is that most Protestant churches would be the same, and that your church also would suggest that non-LDS churches do not have proper authority to conduct baptisms, so that anyone converting would also have to be baptized, regardless of past ones. For example, I have been baptized twice. Once as an infant, in a Lutheran Church, and then again as a converted adolescent, in an Assemblies of God church. If I were to convert, I imagine I would be asked to receive baptism yet again.

So, what does this tell us? Far more useful than who is or is not a Christian, it tells us that we are serving the same Jesus, but that our doctrines and practices are such, that we do not have enough "like precious faith," to recognize one another's ordinances. We talk with each other, pray for each other, and may have our opinions about who will end up where...but there are some dividing lines, mostly along the lines of content, not character.

It really goes much deeper than that my friend PC. For example, even though I am a High Priest in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and I have personally baptized many people – it is possible that my future baptisms would not be accepted – even though I have the authority. This is because the “Kingdom” as understood by the LDS had a definite structure that operates as a “true” kingdom. Besides authority there are “keys” of administration, responsibility and oversight and there are records kept and maintained with accuracy.

This is how it works. Jesus Christ has all the keys of the kingdom and he has delegated all that keys necessary for the work that must be done during this time or preparation to the first presidency. In turn the first presidency has delegated keys to use authority to the quorum of the 12 apostles. Under the 12 apostles keys to use authority are delegated to the 7 presidents of 70 and the quorums of the 70 (of which there can be 7 quorums but currently there are only 2). Other keys to use authority are delegated to area authorities under the 70. Under area authorities keys are delegated to Stake, district and mission presidents. Under stake, district and mission presidents are Ward Bishops, branch presidents and missionaries.

Now let us say that since I am a High Priest that my granddaughter would like me to baptize her. I must carry a signed receipt from my stake president that certifies that I am in deed a High Priest and currently worthy to baptize my granddaughter. I then must take that receipt to my granddaughter’s bishop in the ward where she has been attending church. The Bishop then has to inspect my certificate and approve – if he does not approve I can go back to my stake president and make an appeal up the line to apostles if necessary and back down through the channels to the bishop and if there is a problem it all must be settled before I am allowed to perform an acceptable baptism to be placed into the records of the LDS church.

It does not matter why, or how but if a baptism record is lost then for the baptism to be recognized it must be done over again with all the proper approvals for everyone involved and a proper record made and signed and placed into the church achieves before that baptism is recognized.

Every baptism that the LDS recognize that has been done since the priesthood was restored to Joseph Smith has been recorded and is in the Church records. This is also true of the baptisms that have been done in the temples for the dead. I can go to the Church’s records and look up my baptism, the baptism of my parents and their parents and their parents as far back as I can prove my genealogy. If I find a lost ancestor I can fill out paperwork and have them baptized and a record made that will go into the records of the Church. All these records will be presented to Jesus when he comes and will be a major part of his kingdom.

Please understand all this is not my idea but according to our covenants and commandments that came directly in the “restoration” from ether Jesus Christ or his ancient Apostles. The work we do is exactly and precisely as Jesus has directed that it be done and no variations are acceptable.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler especially validates my contention...by adjusting the question, we all get a lot more information, and a good deal less "drama." :-)

[Moksha]

Chaplain, on the website of the Holy See to which you provided a link, it speaks many times about the sharing of Communion and Baptismal recognition with the Synods of the Eastern Church and the Conferences of the Episcopal Church.

How does it stand on other Christian sects?

.

[prisonchaplain]

  Moksha said:

Chaplain, on the website of the Holy See to which you provided a link, it speaks many times about the sharing of Communion and Baptismal recognition with the Synods of the Eastern Church and the Conferences of the Episcopal Church.

How does it stand on other Christian sects?

.

The short answer is: We're not proper, but there is some hope for us.

How the Roman Catholic Church views other Christian denominations and other religions

[Jamie123]

  Traveler said:

It does not matter why, or how but if a baptism record is lost then for the baptism to be recognized it must be done over again with all the proper approvals for everyone involved and a proper record made and signed and placed into the church achieves before that baptism is recognized.

I hope no one plays with lighted matches in the Church's records room. One fire and the whole Church will take weeks to get rebaptized!

Seriously though, this is very different to the teachings of many other churches, where rebaptism for any reason is seriously frowned upon. In the Anglican (and I believe also in the R.C.) church, an emergency baptism can be performed by a layperson (*), but they are often advised to say to say "If you are not already baptized, I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" so as to exclude the possibility of a rebaptism.

(*) By a "layperson" I mean a person who does not hold a clerical order (bishop, priest or deacon). I've noticed Mormons often use "lay" to mean "not paid". The Church of England has many unpaid priests (we call them "non-stipendiaries") but they are still considered clergy, not laity.

[pam]

  Quote

I hope no one plays with lighted matches in the Church's records room. One fire and the whole Church will take weeks to get rebaptized

Not necessarily true is it when individual members records are sent to the ward or the branch the member is assigned to.

[Jamie123]

  pam said:

Not necessarily true is it when individual members records are sent to the ward or the branch the member is assigned to.

Interesting - so if an individual church burns down, the entire ward must be rebaptized? Or are records kept centrally as well?

In Loughborough where I used to live, there was a fire in the LDS chapel, and the meetings were moved to the Glenfield Ward in Leicester for several months. Loughborough Ward also housed a family history center. I've never thought about it before this minute, but that fire could have played merry hell...

Edited October 13, 2009 by Jamie123

[pam]

I can't imagine that the Church doesn't have everything also on a computer system data base.

[Hemidakota]

  prisonchaplain said:

Are Mormons Christians? The question probably irritates many, and surely raises up all kinds of defenses. The past several threads dancing around this issue convince me that the question is nebulous, and ultimately not terribly useful. I think I have a better question. Can we recognize each other's baptisms?

In the case of Roman Catholicism, the answer is negative. Response on the validity of baptism conferred by «mormons»

My guess is that most Protestant churches would be the same, and that your church also would suggest that non-LDS churches do not have proper authority to conduct baptisms, so that anyone converting would also have to be baptized, regardless of past ones. For example, I have been baptized twice. Once as an infant, in a Lutheran Church, and then again as a converted adolescent, in an Assemblies of God church. If I were to convert, I imagine I would be asked to receive baptism yet again.

So, what does this tell us? Far more useful than who is or is not a Christian, it tells us that we are serving the same Jesus, but that our doctrines and practices are such, that we do not have enough "like precious faith," to recognize one another's ordinances. We talk with each other, pray for each other, and may have our opinions about who will end up where...but there are some dividing lines, mostly along the lines of content, not character.

What is the term for a real follower of Christ than those who claimed it but not live it fully? Would one give up everything to follow the Savior in this life or be like the rich man who departed after his faith was tested?

Even in the church, we seen already with Prop 8, how many members claiming to be true followers of the Christ but cannot abide by a simple decision by His spokesperson, the prophet or prophets [Apostles], stated on what to do. Are they true followers of the Christ, Christians, or abiding in its light for a time?

Edited October 13, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Misshalfway]

So the argument is really about ordinances. I can see that, but I guess that makes me boil it down even further because if you are gonna talk about ordinances you gotta talk about authority. If the ordinance was performed with proper authority there would be no reason to disregard it.

[rameumptom]

There are a few other issues besides ordinances. Some Christian churches do not believe any ordinances are required, for instance. And while one must receive baptism by LDS authority to be LDS, we still believe PC and other Christians will enter into a level of heaven (unlike us poor LDS, who will burn in some Baptist hell for eternity)

There are also beliefs that separate us. I think the key one is ex nihilo creation. While others believe God is of other substance than man, and created us from nothing; LDS believe we are of the same eternal substance as God, and were not created, but rather formed from said material/intelligence. In this way, we can become as God in being as well as in substance.

[martybess]

It all bowls down to Keys as traveler states. Those keys start Christ and then the prophet and so on. All in order and within strict protocols to ensure one is in authority to preform the ordinance and that it has been approved or it does not stand.

[prisonchaplain]

  rameumptom said:

There are a few other issues besides ordinances. Some Christian churches do not believe any ordinances are required, for instance. And while one must receive baptism by LDS authority to be LDS, we still believe PC and other Christians will enter into a level of heaven (unlike us poor LDS, who will burn in some Baptist hell for eternity)

Look at it from my perspective though. I feel a lot worse about folks who will end up in an eternal torment, than you do about folks resigned to spending eternity with Jesus in the Terrestial.

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

  prisonchaplain said:

Look at it from my perspective though. I feel a lot worse about folks who will end up in an eternal torment, than you do about folks resigned to spending eternity with Jesus in the Terrestial.

Amen to that!

I think a good follow up question to "can we recognize each other's baptism?" might be "why can't we recognize each other's baptism?" Perhaps the may take out the drama as well?

[martybess]

  Rhi_Bran_y_Hud said:

Amen to that!

I think a good follow up question to "can we recognize each other's baptism?" might be "why can't we recognize each other's baptism?" Perhaps the may take out the drama as well?

Would this not be asking for drama? "Your religions baptism doesn't stand because......" It might be better to ask: "What makes your baptism qualified?"

[rameumptom]

  prisonchaplain said:

Look at it from my perspective though. I feel a lot worse about folks who will end up in an eternal torment, than you do about folks resigned to spending eternity with Jesus in the Terrestial.

Well, I guess you better hope that you are wrong and we are right, so you don't have to feel bad about all your Mormon friends burning in hell.... I mean, I could visit you in the terrestrial, where you'll be blissfully happy. But would you really want to visit me amidst unquenchable flameage?

[prisonchaplain]

Oh Ram, it's worse than that--I couldn't visit you. The chasm is unbreachable. I'm not worried though...I figure than when we all prepare to gasp our last breath, we'll all pray, "Oh Lord, if I was wrong send me where THAT GUY (the one most respected in our lives) is going. Hopefully those two or three that might think of me as THAT GUY were right about me. :-)

[Dravin]

  rameumptom said:

Well, I guess you better hope that you are wrong and we are right, so you don't have to feel bad about all your Mormon friends burning in hell.... I mean, I could visit you in the terrestrial, where you'll be blissfully happy. But would you really want to visit me amidst unquenchable flameage?

Depends on whether you can get some coffee smuggled down to you or not. :)

[Lilac]

At this point in my life, my answer is:

I don't know and I don't care. I leave that up to God. And ya know what? It feels good to relieve myself of that burden. In that past, I've spent too much time thinking about this and wondering. I'm done with that.

If Mormons claim they are Christians, then so be it. Protestants and Catholics too.

I might have a human opinion but it's probably wrong anyway.

I believe in the Lord and his Son, Jesus as the Savior of the world. I believe his death washes my sins away. I love the Lord. I try to live a holy and Godly life that pleases Him.

That's about it.

If others want to try to figure it out, I'll sit back and I enjoy a good theological discussion but I'm not making any statements to the press.

[Seminarysnoozer]

My two cents, even though it's already been said .... for the most part I believe God has order in everything. There is one way, the right way, to do anything that pertains to eternal realms, for everything else there are multiple ways of doing things. I have a hard time believing in an all-knowing, perfect God, that would say - just do it however you want, it's the effort that counts. At the same time, God lets us "fall off the bike and scrape our knees" so to speak, because there is value in learning how and doing it for ourselves. So, what I am trying to say is that I believe there is only one right way but at the same time, other baptisms still count for something in the eyes of the Lord. I think God knows our intentions and what is in our heart. He will take that into consideration and that will probably weigh more heavily than most things. Even a correct Baptism with proper authority done on someone who has wrong intentions will not be right.

[Misshalfway]

All these questions about who is going to hell and who isn't...... I honestly think about it very rarely. Maybe when I see some mass murderer or some master of genicide. I guess it is the LDS perspective that gives me relative peace on the matter. I am sure from scriptures that the judgment for all of us will be an interesting experience and I can't say that I don't have my fears, but I don't worry about people who don't have the correct baptism. I figure God judges on the heart and that his ways aren't our ways and that he understands all these laws better than we do. Not that I don't think baptism matters. I just think if a person is living as sincerely as possible and doing the best they can with the spiritual knowledge they possess, then God will be merciful. I really don't think the judgment is going to be meeted out according to labels or affiliation. If that were so, then it would be an unjust judgment as it would exclude so many of the earth's people who lived very Christ-like lives.

[rameumptom]

  prisonchaplain said:

Oh Ram, it's worse than that--I couldn't visit you. The chasm is unbreachable. I'm not worried though...I figure than when we all prepare to gasp our last breath, we'll all pray, "Oh Lord, if I was wrong send me where THAT GUY (the one most respected in our lives) is going. Hopefully those two or three that might think of me as THAT GUY were right about me. :-)

Oh, great. So you couldn't even bring me a glass of water to quench my thirst?

In LDS belief, the chasm/gulf that separated Lazarus and the rich man was bridged by Jesus Christ. This allows the wicked who would repent to still cross over to the good side.

Anyway, if I ever do find myself in such a condition, I'll see if there isn't any way to sneak across the border and visit you. Maybe I can sue heaven, as there'll be a lot of lawyers down there with me to pick from....

[prisonchaplain]

You don't have to "drink the koolaid" to come over...just the Joe. :-)