Beer Good. Meat Bad. But we do the opposite.

[Cydonia]

So the Word of Wisdom says: "Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

In other words: "Meat's OK if it's cold and/or you don't have much else to eat."

And the Word of Wisdom says: "...and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain."

In other words: "Barley's good to feed working animals and to make beer with."

But if I have a beer I'm in deep trouble. However, I've seen three meat sandwiches and hotdogs served at summer functions in the chapel.

So why does the WoW say beer good, meat bad (OK, that's an oversimplification) and yet we do the opposite?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I wouldn't call beer a 'mild drink' especially after someone drinking a 'mild drink' killed my cousin, drunk driving. In the trial it was revealed, that's all he had was beer.

[Cydonia]

I'm sorry for your loss, but that's an argument of semantics. It doesn't in any way address my question.

[rampion]

A lot of what people actually do becomes more cultural than doctrinal. Utah was a pretty good environment for a ranching culture to develop, and ranchers grow beef, and so that gets eaten and marketed. Maybe people weren't so sure about the division between "strong drinks" and "mild drinks," and decided to go with no alcoholic beverages at all. In the society that has developed, we can see that beer is sometimes over-used, and can lead to significant problems. Wine and alcohol weren't prohibited in earlier scripture either, but we can see that alcohol doesn't mix well with cars and modern stresses and responsibilities.

Anyway, eating meat became such a big part of the culture that we are thought peculiar among the LDS people if we choose to avoid meat. I'm vegetarian, and I dread ward dinners and such, because there is little likelihood of there being much that I can eat there, and almost no willingness to understand why I don't eat the same food as everyone else, let alone to accomodate.

Once someone called me to ask if my family would attend a Cub Scout banquet. I said that we would be there, and that two of us are vegetarian. The reply from the caller was, "Well, I don't think that matters. We have to put chairs out anyway." Every food available was meat-based at that banquet, except for thinly-sliced oranges used as a garnish. Someone offered me a large bowl of garnishes (I think that was my husband, though). I never know if I'll be able to make do, or if I need to eat before events like these so that I don't go away starving.

I probably wouldn't have such a problem with meat if it were used in moderation, but the wide over-consumption has led me to the conclusion that a meal for me is not worth taking an animal's life. Please don't kill any creatures on my behalf.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'm sorry for your loss, but that's an argument of semantics. It doesn't in any way address my question.

But it does ... there is no question if you don't consider beer a 'mild drink.' To ask that question, I think you have to show that beer is a 'mild drink.' How is it that you drew the line there? There were probably more drinks that were made from grains back in the day that contained very little if any alcohol. Nowadays, I think it would be very hard to include all beers, by just saying the name 'beer', into a category of 'mild drink.' That's my opinion. But often times I try to follow the commandments without understanding the purpose or reasoning behind them.

I just think you need to explain why you think 'beer' is a 'mild drink' to include any non-drinkers in the conversation.

[talisyn]

The only 'mild drink' I can think of for barley is soup. If you want a barley drink that's mild you better start up your PR campaign.

Only someone who has never had a steak so good you can cut it with a fork can say that meat is bad

[Cydonia]

My whole family are vegetarians, too, rampion. So you hit right at the heart of why I'm asking.

I've found it very frustrating that what is said in section 89 of the D&C is not what is said in the Word of Wisdom pamphlet and certainly isn't what's followed. And I'm wondering why.

If meat is OK during the dead of summer when they're are plenty of other food options available at the local grocery store, then why does the WoW say otherwise? Conversely the WoW says mild barley beverages are OK, but we can't have those.

Why doesn't the WoW pamphlet match what's in the D&C?

[pam]

I'm not sure why when people hear the word barley drinks they automatically think of beer. Probably a cultural thing because that's what is thrown into our face all the time. There are other drinks made from barley that have nothing to do with beer. There is barley water and another called barley grass juice. So perhaps when the WOW was revealed they were referring more to the herbal side of mild drinks with barley than what we read into it as beer as beer being good for us.

[FunkyTown]

Err... In defense of cydonia, I should point out that there aren't a heck of a lot of drinks that aren't alcoholic you can make from barley.

"Ah, good ol' Slurry!"

Thankfully, I asked Cydonia's question myself when the missionaries taught it. "If the only drinks you can make from barley are things like beer or harder alcoholic drinks, does that mean beer's okay?"

"The word of wisdom was clarified by later prophets to include all alcoholic drink."

[talisyn]

I'm not sure why when people hear the word barley drinks they automatically think of beer. Probably a cultural thing because that's what is thrown into our face all the time. There are other drinks made from barley that have nothing to do with beer. There is barley water and another called barley grass juice. So perhaps when the WOW was revealed they were referring more to the herbal side of mild drinks with barley than what we read into it as beer as beer being good for us.

Thanks Pam, I didn't know there were any barley drinks besides beer out there

[pam]

I've seen them at health food stores. I haven't tried them because, well, they don't look appealing..but I know they are out there. In fact the owner of one of the stores said that some of these drinks have been around forever. Very nutritional. He said they are kind of in line with say like what Jamba Juice sells as their grass drinks.

[Wingnut]

Try these threads, pulled from the extensive list that Pam has graciously compiled for us, so as to help avoid rehashing the same discussions over and over again:

http://www.lds.net/forums/health-exercise/16965-word-wisdom-meat.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/15250-word-wisdom-vegetarianism.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/learn-about-mormon-church/15509-words-wisdom.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/11587-word-wisdom.html

[funkenheimer]

I don't think that beer or meat are necessarily evil. Neither one is necessarily good either.

Beer, when taken in moderation, is pretty harmless. However, its the moderation that most people struggle with. I have heard the argument that a glass of wine with dinner is good for the heart. The problem is when one can't stop at one glass at dinner. Beer certainly isn't necessary for survival.

Meat can actually be good for the body when taken in moderation. However, the same as beer, its the moderation that people struggle with. Certain meats are better for you than others and certain preperation methods are healthier than others but all meat contains protein which the body needs. Having said that, meat is not neccessary for survival.

I admire those who choose a vegetarian lifestyle and most of them seem to live healthy lives. Although, I do choose to eat meat I am very selective about the meats we eat and how it is prepared. We have cut back our meat consumption quite a bit over the last several months and we are enjoying trying some new recipes that don't contain meat. At least for the most part we are enjoying it, my kids weren't real crazy about the tofu dishes I made a few weeks ago, but we are trying.

On a related note, I really do admire those who choose to limit or eliminate meat consumption. However, I don't really care for some of the politics that some vegetarians use to try to guilt me into a vegetarian lifestyle. For those that choose not to eat meat thats just fine, but don't judge me when I do decide to eat meat.

The situation above where Rampion was asked to help with a Cub Scout Banquet and notified the committee in advance that 2 vegetarians would be attending and then arrived to find nothing to eat - thats extremely inconsiderate on the part of the committee member.

[rampion]

There is this stuff simply called Barley Tea. It's just barley, in a paper tea bag. You pour water over it and let it sit in the refrigerator for 15 minutes or more. It's pretty good. Barley doesn't need to be fermented any more than grape juice does. Smells much better fresh, too.

[hordak]

Hot drink are defined as coffee and tea. They were common hot drinks in Josephs day.

Strong drinks are not only forbidden in the WoW but there use is prescribed

And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

Back in Josephs day, before there was a wallgreens on ever corner a wound could be washed with strong drink. In fact ethanol is still used today for this the washing of bodies.See hand sanitizer.

Mild means moderate in action or effect.

What is the 3rd most popular beverage in the the world, made from barley and would be "mild" when compared to strong drink that can "wash bodies"?

Give you a hint it's not Barley water.

I think it's pretty clearly referring to Beer

Now that's not to say beer is ok.

The church teaches modern revelation. There's no need to redefine what was said.

The WoW, as written, is not the WoW as taught, no ones trying to redefine the word "NOT" as in "not by command or constraint" It's simply accepted that the WoW was different for different people in a different time.

Edited November 4, 2009 by hordak

[mnn727]

A google search of non alcoholic barley drinks brings up a multitude of drinks that the Beer and Soda companies don't want you to know how to make.

[Cydonia]

There are a few other barley drinks out there, but none that were popular in the US in that time. Brigham Young said that he understood "hot drinks" to mean coffee and tea because “I have heard it argued that tea and coffee are not mentioned therein; that is very true; but what were the people in the habit of taking as hot drinks when that revelation was given? Tea and coffee. We were not in the habit of drinking water very hot, but tea and coffee 'the beverages in common use'."

The mild barley beverage in common use was beer. So that settles that.

But the more important issue is not about beer. The more important issue is that the D&C says eat only a small amount of meat except in the winter or famine, and yet three meat sandwiches and hot dogs are common summer fair in the church.

As Seminarysnoozer said "But often times I try to follow the commandments without understanding the purpose or reasoning behind them."

If I were to do that, I'd eat meat sparingly (meaning infrequently) and I would not worry about drinking a mild beverage made from barley, which following the "beverages in common use" guideline, would be beer.

So why do we interpret and not follow the guideline as written?

[hordak]

So why do we interpret and not follow the guideline as written?

Continuing revelation. If you really want to get technical about how it is written there's no need to follow it at all. It's in the second line. But if you do follow it it means you believe in that continuing revelation, and if revelation can change one verse.

To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

Then it can change another

And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

[rampion]

Maybe a lot of it is that people have not learned how to plan a meal that is not based on meat. That's easy to remedy. And tofu does not need to be included. We have plenty to eat - vegetables, fruit, bread, milk, .... In less affluent times, meat was used for celebrations and when needed - not everyday (red meat in particular). People ate vegetables and grains. Now, people eat meat because they can, and they waste it because they no longer have a close connection to the source of their food and its true cost.

People used to drink primarily beer because it made the water safe to drink. Now we have enough safe water to drink, and don't need to drink beer.

Prophets just might know what is best for one time even if not the same as another time, just maybe. And the majority of the people interpret directions to make them closest to what they want to do.

The Doctrine and Covenants also tells us that we should not have to be commanded in all things.

Why doen't the WoW tell us not to use marijuana, meth, cocaine, etc.?

[ryanh]

So why do we interpret and not follow the guideline as written?

You wonder about interpretation, but don't see that your understanding is filtered precisely by your own interpretation? The WoW as given in D&C has some rather difficult phrasing for 2009 english readers to grasp. At times it seems contradictory – esp regarding the forbidding of the use of meat. I'm comfortable relying on subsequent interpretations by leaders to supplant my understanding of what is intended, and not to rely on my own interpretation alone.

It feels like you simply want to argue in favor of forbidding the use of meat.

[mrmarklin]

The WoW was not fully enforced until relatively recently, namely 1930. In 1930, it was decided that ot be temple worthy, the WoW had to be complied with, and it is very specific that the BIG FOUR, namely, Alcohol, Tobacco, Coffee and Tea were the absolute prohibitions. That continuing revelation stuff. That's what we live by today, and is required of us.

It is a well known fact that many church leaders did not obey the WoW by those standards prior to 1930, and coffee drinking was extremely common in the church prior to that time.

The winter home of Brigham Young in St George Utah is full of wine decanters used by the prophet himself, as an example of the above.

[Cydonia]

The WoW as given in D&C has some rather difficult phrasing for 2009 english readers to grasp.

No it doesn't.

As to continuing revelation--When was further revelation given? As far as I can find no further revelations have been provided for the Word of Wisdom after it was given to Joseph Smith Jr. Could you point me to where a prophet added further or new revelation to it?

[skippy740]

What part of "following the prophet" don't you understand?

You can argue the semantics of the written word all day long. But in the end, it is how well we follow the counsel of the revealed word in our lives. That means forsaking all alcohol, tea, tobacco and coffee - REGARDLESS of how it is written.

"A living prophet is more important than a dead prophet." - Ezra T. Benson

[ryanh]

As to continuing revelation--When was further revelation given?

Case in point for my conclusion that you interpret some things wrongly. Where did I say "revelation"?

Were you aware that the forbidding of meats by some is addressed in both the NT and D&C? Or did you choose to interpret those in your own way too?

[Cydonia]

Case in point for my conclusion that you interpret some things wrongly. Where did I say "revelation"?

Um...I wasn't talking to you there, Ryanh. Read the post directly above my last one.

Skippy740, I'd love to follow the words of a living prophet (or even a more recent one). Has one offered revelation on the Word of Wisdom? Could someone point to that revelation?

The last revelation I have is from the D&C. Brigham Young added his own interpretation that hot drinks are coffee and tea based on the drinks in common use, so I'm happy to accept that.

But I can't find anything specifying when a prophet had it revealed to him that meat should not be eaten sparingly or that beer was bad. I'm legitimately asking where these notions came from and whether they're just hearsay that became doctrine or if there's a real revelation behind them.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Cydonia