Lord, is it I?

[beefche]

Am I the only person who wonders what it would take for me to leave the church or denounce my faith? I'm sure many of us know people who were so faithful in the church that have fallen away. And we can see what happened from our armchairs. It seems so easy to see what others are doing that could drive them away. But I worry more about myself.

I've heard from talks and leaders that there are certain things to watch for: ceasing to pray or read scriptures, criticizing the General Authorities (or beginning with criticizing local leaders), ceasing to pay tithing, etc. What struck me was that these all seem to be "little things"--not the big things one would expect.

Just some thoughts I've had. It seems so easy to fall out the habits of good living and fall back into being lazy and comfortable. I don't want to be one of those stories that others tell, "she used to be so faithful. I wonder what happened?"

[sixpacktr]

Beefche,

I have wondered the same thing. I have known friends, RMs, great guys, strong in the church, and are now completely inactive and blaming the church for their problems. I sat in a meeting where a guy gave one the best talks I've ever heard, someone I looked up to as a leader (he was a HC), and 6 months later he was inactive (actually completely against the church), had abandoned his family, etc. He didn't even come to his mother's funeral. I was the one that took her the sacrament every other week as YM's President because he was gone. All I could ask myself was 'what was the point of it all? He did everything he was supposed to for 60 years, and then just chunks it away.'

My wife is big on stating that it is the little things that determine if we'll be faithful or not, and indeed, if we'll make it to the CK or not. Why? Because Satan rarely puts a (pardon me for this) gorgeous naked woman in someone's path that is reading the scriptures, praying, paying tithing, following their leader's counsel, etc., and expecting them to fall right then and there. The big things are easy, but if we neglect the little things, the big things become easier to succumb to because we no longer have the Spirit as we should in our lives.

Ridiculing leaders is a HUGE problem I see in the church right now. More local leaders than our GAs, although I see some of that as well (kind of 'cafeteria style' acceptance of what they teach--I like that one, but not so crazy about THAT teaching, etc). I see it here on this forum way too much, so much so that it is very easy to see who will and won't have problems down the line when things get really tough. We haven't even begun to see the bad yet, and if we don't hold to the rod, ALL of the rod with our whole hands (hearts and soul) we tempt fate in being led into 'unknown paths' that are covered in mists of darkness...

[Snow]

Am I the only person who wonders what it would take for me to leave the church or denounce my faith?

No, I too worry about what it would take for you to leave the Church.

My guess? 2 talls of Coors Light and a pack of Lucky Strikes.

[hordak]

Unanswered prayers, death of a loved one etc.

As an "on again, off again, " member , and maybe some of our resident atheists can help me here, i can tell it isn't little stuff that causes people to lose their faith. The little stuff is a symptom of losing the faith.

It's the loss of faith that cause one to give up the little things not the other way around.

Think of it like this, why do people leave other faiths?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I agree with Hordak. It kind of depends on where one starts though. It is like the parable of the sower (Matthew 13). If one is not rooted well, like being planted in stoney earth, the seed is easily scorched. Or if it is rooted well but one surrounds themselves with thorns or thorny thoughts then it might choke out one's testimony. Verses 21 through 23 explain the scenarios that change a person's testimony. I have seen many in my own family that get easily offended and leave the church but most often they are those that haven't rooted themselves well. I have others in my family that rely on their secular education for answers, professors and doctors, who let the thorns of that education choke out the truth or those pursuits become more important than the gospel. I think it varies for everyone, the best prevention is root yourself well in the truth and listen to the spirit and bear fruit, then when these challenges come it won't kill the 'seed'.

[Prodigal_Son]

Reminds me of President Uchdorf's talk about having our compass set just one degree off...

[candyprpl]

In primary, we sometimes pose situations to the kids that gives them ready defenses when faced with a problem -- all the 'what ifs' in our lives. I think it's wonderful to think about those 'what ifs' and have ready plans.

When I first joined the Church and was reading the Book of Mormon for the first time through, a scripture hit me like a ton of bricks. I was having questions about how to stay faithful and would I be able to, etc. And then I read Alma 24:30

"And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things."

That verse scared me to death -- I knew how hard my heart had been before and I could see how it would have to become even harder after falling away. It was one of the first scripture verses that I marked and because I always wanted that reminder I wrote in the front of my scriptures on the blank page, "reason to not fall away!"

I have family members who have fallen away and I see the truth of this scripture in their lives now.

About 3 weeks after my baptism I was out in Ca. visiting my daughter (who is not a member). She is a recovering addict and I went with her to a celebration of someone else's 1 year sobriety birthday (as they call it). It was a dinner party and quite a few people were sitting at this long table. Across from me and my daughter sat this young woman and I caught part of her conversation when she mentioned having been married in a mormon temple. I started listening to her -- it was really quite sad to hear her talk badly about the church and temple marriage in particular. I leaned over to my daughter and told her that what she was saying was not the truth. My daughter looked at me with sadness in her eyes and said, 'even though I don't know anything about the mormon church I can tell she's just bitter.' I still wonder about that young woman -- I still wonder, had she stayed steadfast how would her life be different? I mean clearly it would have been. So sad. She is still in my prayers today.

For me personally, I think you must remember the little things and stay on top of them. Some of us are too easily swayed and we must be prepared for the lies of the deceiver.

[Moksha]

My guess? 2 talls of Coors Light and a pack of Lucky Strikes.

Nay, Beefchee would not even leave for a pack of Fatimas and a sixer of Polygamy Porter beer! She would chain herself to green pastures and not want.

----------------

One thing we need to remember is that everyone who voluntarily leaves does so for their own reason and they should never be cast with a negative label. God still loves them. They should never fear reentry thinking they will burn up. The Prodigal Mormon can return.

:)

[Maya]

The only thing I can say is that the does all he can to get us out of the Church! I hate to critizise anyone or should I say I hate critizising.

I think that is a blessing! Anyone without foult....

Edited November 9, 2009 by Maya

[havejoy]

I became angry at God when my children were not protected from harm as I had prayed they would be. I left the church for 12 years. During those years I missed out on a lot of blessings that could have been mine had I not been so hard hearted.

I never doubted the power of the priesthood or the blessings that come with tithing, obeying the words of wisdom, laws of chastity, etc., but I was angry and felt as if God had turned His back on me.

The first time I prayed after 12 years of silence I felt comforted so I now know it was only I who turned my back.

I don't think I could ever turn away again......that was a long and miserable 12 years.

[Misshalfway]

I just think we need to be awfully careful when "evaluating" those who seem to have fallen away from the church.

I think they need our love and our care and perhaps even our nonjudgemental listening and patience.

[sixpacktr]

that is what HT/VT is for. And yes, we are not to judge.

But by the same token, they need to be warned. Lovingly. But simply listening and agreeing with them so that they don't get angrier, etc., is not correct either. If we have friends/family/etc., that have fallen away for whatever reason, or, perhaps more importantly, we see them beginning to fall away thru evil practices, we need to warn them of the road they are heading down. Otherwise, we are just as culpable, IMO, because we didn't try to help them see the error of their ways. King Benjamin, Jacob, Alma come to mind...

[Tarnished]

I think there are many things that can draw us away from the gospel and unless we prepare ourselves for those things we may be weak when the time comes. I went inactive for about a year and at first I just let little things drive me away. I didn't really feel welcome at church, I didn't feel like going in the morning, I felt like I needed to stay home and think things through. Eventually I started to look for reasons why I stayed away and I came up with reasons that were more excuses then anything else. Truthfully all of it lay with me and my attitude about going to church, once I got that sorted I found it easier to go back and now am very happy that I have returned.

I have friends who have left the church and out of them I would like to talk about two in particular. The first grew up in an LDS family, and one year at scout camp met a girl who was at a nearby camp, he had sex with her and never repented of it because he did not feel that what he did was a sin. He then decided to pray about the Book of Mormon to see if it was true, when he felt nothing (because the spirit would not be around him) he decided that the church was false, as he was beginning to believe, and he proceeded to leave the church. He has since gotten married and now has a little girl, he and his wife live a polyamorous life style (I guess you could say he is a type of swinger), and have had to explain this life style to their daughter. This is because they don't make it secret that Daddy and Mommy sometimes sleep over at other people's houses. At this point he is so far against the church that he has become exactly what he claimed he would never become, except he is on the other side of the mirror.

The second friend went to Rick's College with me (now BYU - I). She also grew up in a LDS home but was very goth and liked to listen to bands such as Nine Inch Nails and Marilyn Madson. While she was at college she was not accepted by her roommates, they didn't approve of her interests and openly shunned her for it, however they had no problem with some of the things that they did such as watch movies that should not have been watching or be immoral. For my friend it was a huge hypocrasy and she left the church because of it. Since then she has followed her previous interests to a point where she is currently married but has a girlfriend that she messes around with, she also is very heavily into S&M. She is currently of the opinion that almost all Mormons are either "Molly Mormons" or hyprocrits and that there are very few who are not. She also seems to have a fear that any Mormon she does not know will try to convert her.

Both of these circumstances could have been changed, if my first friend had repented and turned his life toward God he would not be at a point where he is now setting a extremely bad example for his daughter. If my second friend had developed a testimony of the gospel and come to college with an understanding that the members are just people and will be idiots sometimes then she could be in a place where she is not missunderstanding most of the members that she meets.

When it comes to leaving the church it really lies very heavily on our choices and how we choose to handle the things that happen to us. Things can go either very well or very bad, it is all our choice.

[sixpacktr]

Right on the mark, Tarnished. Too often we look for excuses to justify our behavior instead of repenting and trying harder to be more like Him. Not pointing at your friends in particular, but as I said, I have seen the same things, and their lives are a mess now.

I still stick by my initial post: little things, little things, little things. If we do them, we'll have the Spirit. If we don't, we won't (or at least not as strongly as we should)...

[beefche]

Snow, you are wrong. It's not cheap cigs or cheap beer that'll make me leave the church. My tastes are much more expensive than that.

[beefche]

My point is that we can obviously see what others do which draws them away from the Spirit and leave the church. But what about us? I look at myself and think, "I'll never leave! My testimony is too strong." But we are cautioned that some of the elect will be led away. Look at the parable of the 10 virgins--they were all church members. They all knew about the wedding and came to it. But the foolish ones didn't take the time to get oil and wanted to get it the easy way.

How am I a foolish virgin? What am I currently doing or not doing which contributes to the Spirit not residing with me?

Again, I think that when we stop studying the scriptures, stop praying, find excuses to miss church, stop paying tithing, judge others, stop being of service to others--you know, the little things--they lead to bigger and worse things.

I just wonder how many of us think that we are ok and it's others who are at fault. When we disagree with our church leaders, local or general authorities, do we think that we could actually be wrong to be in disagreement? Do we go to Sacrament meeting and get annoyed at speakers who don't speak well and think that I'd feel the Spirit if we had better speakers?

[ryanh]

When it comes to leaving the church it really lies very heavily on our choices and how we choose to handle the things that happen to us. Things can go either very well or very bad, it is all our choice.

Thanks for typing all that up. What comes to mind when I read the stories of your friends, and when considering other notable individuals that have left the Church, it seems apparent to me that they were simply following their heart - what they loved most, and that didn't happen to be our Heavenly Father or promises of the eternities. 'Where your treasures are, there will be your heart also' type of thing.

It would seem to me that one litmus we can apply to gauge if "is it I", would be to analyze what we love most. Where are our interests? Is it in worldly things? Physical passions? Are there things that are more important to me than loving and serving my God? Is my heart set upon the treasures of heaven, or things of the earth?

[Misshalfway]

This reminds me of a conference talk I posted a month or two ago concerning all the ways we can subtly fall into apostasy. Might be a little bit of a tangent, but maybe its helpful for self examination purposes.

LDS.org - Liahona Article - Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall

After reading your last post, Beef, I was reminded of something from the NT that talks about judging righteously. Not that I am an expert or anything, but I do think that God helps us to see things as they really are and perhaps the truth about what is and isn't signs of apostasy. I don't think that is the same as being judgmental or casting stones. It's just being able to discern truth from error. Our temple blessings promise added skill with regards to this.

[sixpacktr]

Beeche,

To me, yes, you can fall away. Just as I can, just as anyone here can. I used to get annoyed with my wife when she'd say that, because I wasn't mature enough to think that she or I would. I now know better.

When Pres Hinckley stated several years ago in a conference talk 'I hope I will endure to the end' it made my heart glad. Because I realized that it was okay for me to have that worry, to know how fickle the Spirit can be IF I don't do my part.

All of your examples are areas that Satan will work on. I was talking to my wife about our daughter's impending wedding. Her fiance is a recent convert, and she brought him into the gospel. They just told his folks that they can't be part of the wedding ceremony, per se, but we are letting them handle the reception so that they can feel more a part of things (this is sticky: my wife and I were in the same boat, as her folks aren't members). He is close with his folks, and my wife said she hoped that they wouldn't have too big of a struggle with it. I told her that was EXACTLY where Satan would concentrate, because he ALWAYS goes after the weak spots in our armor. This will be a trial for them, but I'm confident that they'll be okay.

That is why we must be constantly vigilant to our thoughts and feelings. If we allow ourselves to justify our actions, or be offended, or be lax in our approach to Diety, we are setting up an area for Satan to attack and weaken.

[Guest Godless]

Unanswered prayers, death of a loved one etc.

As an "on again, off again, " member , and maybe some of our resident atheists can help me here, i can tell it isn't little stuff that causes people to lose their faith. The little stuff is a symptom of losing the faith.

It's the loss of faith that cause one to give up the little things not the other way around.

Everyone's situation is different, but I think that this is generally true. I actually tried putting more focus on the "little things" during the time that my faith was slipping. But I was doing it in search of answers rather than faith, and so my faith continued to falter. I think faith is what makes people want to obey the smaller commandments. The little things come naturally to them in most cases. In that same vein, there are plenty of faithful members who forget the little things sometimes. Nobody's perfect. However, the faithful are much more likely to correct themselves and get back to doing the things that the Church teaches them to do, whereas those who lack faith may be doing those things and simply stop at some point. I hope that makes sense.

Snow, you are wrong. It's not cheap cigs or cheap beer that'll make me leave the church. My tastes are much more expensive than that.

Stay the heck away from me then.

[beefche]

Everyone's situation is different, but I think that this is generally true. I actually tried putting more focus on the "little things" during the time that my faith was slipping. But I was doing it in search of answers rather than faith, and so my faith continued to falter. I think faith is what makes people want to obey the smaller commandments.

I'm not sure I understand, Godless. What do you mean you were in search of answers rather than faith?

[beefche]

Stay the heck away from me then.

LOL! Maybe it's a good thing we don't live near each other.... Wouldn't want to give up my kingdom for a horse...er...an expensive beer.

[Guest Godless]

I'm not sure I understand, Godless. What do you mean you were in search of answers rather than faith?

I wanted to make sense of the doctrine rather than put faith in it. I took an intellectual approach to it rather than a spiritual one.

[The_Seeker]

Am I the only person who wonders what it would take for me to leave the church or denounce my faith?

Speaking only for myself [of course]..... I am a member of the Church because I believe that is where Heavenly Father wants me to be. That's what it all boils down to. If at some point in time I felt (after much prayerful consideration) that God was leading me out of the Church, I would leave. To me, it's as simple as that, which isn't to say that it would be easy. I had to do a lot of praying and searching to convince me to join the Church, and it would take an equal amount to make me leave.

As far as "denouncing my faith" -- I consider my belief in God and in Christ's Atonement to be something that I hold apart from or in addition to my faith in the Church. Even if I left the Church I would still have that.

[pam]

At this point..I can't honestly think of anything that would have me considering leaving the Church.