Hill-Billy Dave's second post; D&C 45:25-39

[Hill-Billy]

The last post received a lot of attention over Pres. Heber J. Grant administration on a “Priesthood ordination problems.” In order to prevent a lot of useless negative and sometimes just plain mean and rude chatter, I am going to set my own rules for my responses.

Anyone who has flies in their empty belfry, or uses loud obnoxious talk without first engaging the mind, or is a person without mind or body in his thinking, I will not respond to such negative discussions with them. If it is negative, hateful, and rude and lacks common good taste I will not respond.

Question is: Has the times of the Gentiles been fulfilled?

I have given you paragraph 25 to start with, but by all means read the whole section to get the complete picture here. This section is critical to the understanding of those who want to prepare for the Second Coming of our Lord. We need to prepare for it, this is the day of our probation and we need to do what we can, today. Not wait another minute of our probation in strong drink. If we have a handle on this section it might help wake us up to repent and get ready for the future, destruction of the wicked and hope we are not among them when this destruction happens.

“and in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth.

And the love of men shall wax cold, and iniquity shall abound.

And when the “times of the Gentiles” is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fullness of my gospel;

But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

And there shall not pass until they shall see an over flowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.”

This is only part of it as you all know and have read before. We in the church have a habit of looking forward when maybe sometimes we should look back in time. I submit to your judgments that this has been fulfilled in the 1920’s. During the 1920’s certain events took place to lead me to believe that the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled.

1. President Heber J. Grant’s administration of (1921) Priesthood, temple changes, garment changes, calling off the gathering, the mission field changes, fullness of the gospel changed because of the pressure from the U.S. Government.

2. and the over flowing scourge as a time line too, was the 1920 flu epidemic that killed millions.

3. Prophesy of John Taylor in the 1886 Revelation regarding the 7th president of the church, which happens to be Pres. Heber J. Grant.

4. Isaiah, Chapter 7, I think is regarding the 7th president of the Church.

Mrs. Heather, Monitor, I am not trying to discredit the church or talk nasty about it, Just the facts mama, just the facts. President John Taylor said it not me.

All of this leads me to believe that the “times of the Gentiles” has been fulfilled and we are closer to our Saviors coming than any of us believe. We may want to give excuses for not believing it is that close, as it makes us feel uncomfortable but the facts lead to this conclusion. And what if this conclusion is wrong and we get out of our daily sleepy life and start to prepare for His coming? Big deal so we were early, I would rather be early than late, wouldn’t you?

[john doe]

You were asked pointed questions as to what your points were. You failed to respond. How does that make your questioners 'negative, hateful, rude, or lacking good taste'? The other thread was actually progressing quite fine, you dropped out when your points were refuted. Is this going to be an ongoing pattern?

To call those who don't agree with your conclusions as having flies in their belfry, loud and obnoxious, not engaging their mind, or not thinking, will not help your cause or the discussion.

[NeuroTypical]

Anyone who has flies in their empty belfry, or uses loud obnoxious talk without first engaging the mind, or is a person without mind or body in his thinking

My rules:

I'm happy to interact civily with anyone who shows up on a board with a lesser-accepted view of how something is working, unless they show up with some red flags:

* Posts with more than the average inclusion of sensationalism, end-times stuff, a prevalence of all caps or exclamation points,

* Insulting dismissiveness, passive/aggressiveness, our outright hostility towards other opinions,

* Inability or unwillingness to answer direct questions in a direct manner,

* Pedestal-sitting, ivory-towerness, indications that the person thinks he is here to bestow pearls of wisdom upon us deluded unwashed masses, exerting great drops of gold from his jewel-encrusted brow as he attempts to reason down to our level, or demand we rise to his.

If I have a hard time looking past someone's inflated view of themselves or their pet theory in order to take a good look at them, I'm less likely to take them seriously or bother interacting civily.

Just so ya know.

LM

[Guest mormonmusic]

Hill-Billy:

In your most recent thread prior to this one, you also presented content that was supposed to be factual, but then didn't have the sources to back it up. When people asked for these sources, you said "Do your own research". I think that's why you received so much disagreement - not because people were being rude or obnoxious.

You've attempted to press the delete button on that, and start over again, but to me, this reboot of the topic is evidence that there was a lot you couldn't respond to in the last thread.

[Maya]

I dont have a mind, so I can even engage it.. does that count??

As an answer to the question. I was thinking of this very question one of these days, but NOT because of what you write here. One reason is that like her there are not many Norwegeans that came in to the church... mostly refugies. Many people harden their hearts these days and dont even want to hear about the gospel...

It also came in to my mind that quite a few jews are getting interested in the Gospel. Many of them ask just like our dear thekabbalah here, how could I be somethign else as I am a jew, how could I get babtized to something else. But they are reading the BoM and in many places understanding it much deeper and better than us. They are telling us it IS an anicent jewish/hebrew writting.

I just got this "wild idea" a few weeks ago that is it so, that we need a jewish person to read and comment both NT and BoM and possibly also OT... to really "get under skinn" in the scriptures. Could the two rods Judah and Efraims not only be smelted together as many different books, but could the Jewish "rewrite" all these to a perfect book? Like the BoM is gathered by really good scribes with the understanding... should I say jewish understanding to the scriptures... of different books written before, which they then put to hether to a new book.

About President Grant. I belive he did as well as he could. I also believe that he got a mission to do what he did. I also believe that he was a fallible man, like everyone else. And I also believe that even if some profet would allow his own thoughts interfere his work at times, that part of the work which is of God is ok, but that part what is wrong... why worry it has no meening, it has no bleesing.

Sometimes God has a lot to say to a profet... like especially to someone doing restauration... while some profets live in a time when we are just waiting... but it dont make those profets any less important.

We have been given a promise that the gospel will NEVER again be taken from the earth. I read priesthood also to that promise. No matter what happens there will always be a part of His church here on earth untill the end of times. It may be that we do not get more light as we are not prepared for it, but ther eis a possibility to get it IF we only could live the gospel well enough to be in the right level to achieve it.

[Justice]

3 Prophesy of John Taylor in the 1886 Revelation regarding the 7th president of the church, which happens to be Pres. Heber J. Grant.

This isn't the first time you mentioned this. Can you give us the source and exact quote? A link would be great!

[pam]

Question is: Has the times of the Gentiles been fulfilled?

Okay let's go to this question. According to Joseph Fielding Smith, his opinion is that it has been. And I quote:

Jerusalem was trodden down of the Gentiles from the destruction of that city and the scattering of the Jews in the year 70A.D., until the close of the year 1917. At that time the British armies took possession of Palestine during the World War. Since that time the Jews have been invited to return, and they have been doing so in great numbers. They are still gathering in fulfilment of this prophecy… Their return, and the fact that the land has been proclaimed as a gathering place for them, is the sign the Lord gave the world that the times of the Gentiles is drawing to its close.

This great event, the gathering of the Jews, was to come in a day when tribulation and distress are laying hold of the nations. It was to be in a day of wars, and rumors of wars; when men's hearts should be failing them for fear; when their love for the truth and their fellow men should wax cold, and they should be saying that Christ delayeth His coming until the end of the earth. All of these things we are seeing today. Never has there been such a time of commotion and perplexity among the nations. (The Progress of Man [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1964], 396.)

Mrs. Heather, Monitor, I am not trying to discredit the church or talk nasty about it, Just the facts mama, just the facts. President John Taylor said it not me.

Knowing Heather personally, if she were to ever read this post (which I doubt as she spends very little time reading the forums), I think she would be a little put off by this..the whole mama thing.

Edited December 6, 2009 by pam

[Hill-Billy]

Thank you; Maya, Pam and Justice for your comments.

About the Jews coming into this gospel.. I know my mother was one. I do agree with you that Heber J. Grant was lead by the spirit during his administration. I think we have a wonderful father who is willing to take the car key away from a disobedient Son, so he doesn't hurt himself or others while driving.

Another example: When one of my children drops a glass of milk and the glass breaks, milk is everywhere what do you do? The family jumps in and cleans up the mess. We don't condemn the person who drops the glass. The other options would be to ignore the facts, or try to sweep the whole thing under the rug so no one sees it. And if someone did see it and mentioned it, we certainly would not cast stones on the person who found the mess and reported it.

PAM… I think you read too much into what I have said. It was not meant to be a slam.

JUSTICE; I have in the past site, explained, sited and copied the documents. In these sites it is easy to lose such information. We have a big history of our Church and I don’t have time to write it all down. Please, if you would Google; 1886 Revelation a list of sites will appear. Also Google: The Priesthood Ordination Change in 1921 by Heber J. Grant. It is also found in the Missionary Handbook of that time. These facts are not hidden in this day and age of information with Google.

Hope all of you have a great Sabbath.

[pam]

PAM… I think you read too much into what I have said. It was not meant to be a slam.

Didn't take it as a slam. Just the wording.

[Vort]

We have a big history of our Church and I don’t have time to write it all down.

No one asks that you write down all LDS history. Just cite your sources.

Please, if you would Google; 1886 Revelation a list of sites will appear. Also Google: The Priesthood Ordination Change in 1921 by Heber J. Grant. It is also found in the Missionary Handbook of that time.

Here's a better idea: YOU Google these things, then pick out the hits that buttress your arguments. Point up the exact passages, sentences, or other parts that support what you are claiming. Then post those.

For more on Hill-Billy's technique of "I've mentioned my sources, so it's not my fault if you don't bother to read them", listen to Nibley's excellent How to Write an Anti-Mormon Book.

[Wingnut]

There are rules to this forum, and there are general unwritten forum rules (one being that posters provide references to back up their statements when requested), but I don't think I've ever seen anyone lay down their own rules in a forum, outside of a game thread. Pretty ballsy. Personally, I think it sounds a bit like a temper tantrum.

[Snow]

The last post received a lot of attention over Pres. Heber J. Grant administration on a “Priesthood ordination problems.” In order to prevent a lot of useless negative and sometimes just plain mean and rude chatter, I am going to set my own rules for my responses.

Anyone who has flies in their empty belfry, or uses loud obnoxious talk without first engaging the mind, or is a person without mind or body in his thinking, I will not respond to such negative discussions with them. If it is negative, hateful, and rude and lacks common good taste I will not respond.

Here are my rules:

Number one: Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes.

Number two: Establish credit when you're young.

Number three: No stuck up sticky beets.

Number four: There is no number four.

Number five: Obey me.

Number six: I meant it when I said no stuck up sticky beats.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Snow

[Snow]

4. Isaiah, Chapter 7, I think is regarding the 7th president of the Church.

... and I think it is about Bella from the movie Twillight.

So we have two equally weird theories. What do we do now?

[Just_A_Guy]

Please, if you would Google; 1886 Revelation a list of sites will appear.

The original to that document is gone. Here is a surviving photocopy. Wikipedia has the text.

The 1886 "revelation" says nothing about a seventh president of the Church.

[pam]

I googled it as well. The only sites I could find it on other than wikipedia as JAG also did, were fundamentalist sites. And JAG is right. It makes no mention of a 7th President.

[pam]

Originally Posted by Hill-Billy

4. Isaiah, Chapter 7, I think is regarding the 7th president of the Church.

This chapter in Isaiah happens to be a prophecy in the OT about the birth of Christ. Not sure how that relates to the 7th President of the Church.

Edited December 7, 2009 by pam

[Just_A_Guy]

I googled it as well. The only sites I could find it on other than wikipedia as JAG also did, were fundamentalist sites. And JAG is right. It makes no mention of a 7th President.

For dealing with fundies, I'd highly recommend this site. It's extremely thorough, and a lot of what's in there will sound familiar to people who have reviewed Hill-Billy's posts in detail.

[john doe]

I would like Mr. Billy to address the points brought up here.

[john doe]

... and I think it is about Bella from the movie Twillight.

So we have two equally weird theories. What do we do now?

You actually saw that? I hope the reward you got for it was worth the suffering you went through.

[pam]

I'm sure he thought Bella was a "naughty little minx."

[NeuroTypical]

Number three: No stuck up sticky beets.

Hear, hear - well spoken Bruce.

(And dang - the accompanying song is quite fitting for this thread.)

[Maya]

I quess laughing is not allowed in this thread... I do it anyway...

sorry..... nah!

Well it really is difficult to find in the LDS church history stuff that is not there....

Let us all pray so Billy can find the truth in the jungle of knowledge... sigh...

[MarginOfError]

I'm still waiting for your response to this post, which refutes the majority of your claims.

How about it already?

[Hemidakota]

The last post received a lot of attention over Pres. Heber J. Grant administration on a “Priesthood ordination problems.” In order to prevent a lot of useless negative and sometimes just plain mean and rude chatter, I am going to set my own rules for my responses.

Anyone who has flies in their empty belfry, or uses loud obnoxious talk without first engaging the mind, or is a person without mind or body in his thinking, I will not respond to such negative discussions with them. If it is negative, hateful, and rude and lacks common good taste I will not respond.

Question is: Has the times of the Gentiles been fulfilled?

I have given you paragraph 25 to start with, but by all means read the whole section to get the complete picture here. This section is critical to the understanding of those who want to prepare for the Second Coming of our Lord. We need to prepare for it, this is the day of our probation and we need to do what we can, today. Not wait another minute of our probation in strong drink. If we have a handle on this section it might help wake us up to repent and get ready for the future, destruction of the wicked and hope we are not among them when this destruction happens.

“and in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth.

And the love of men shall wax cold, and iniquity shall abound.

And when the “times of the Gentiles” is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fullness of my gospel;

But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

And there shall not pass until they shall see an over flowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.”

This is only part of it as you all know and have read before. We in the church have a habit of looking forward when maybe sometimes we should look back in time. I submit to your judgments that this has been fulfilled in the 1920’s. During the 1920’s certain events took place to lead me to believe that the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled.

1. President Heber J. Grant’s administration of (1921) Priesthood, temple changes, garment changes, calling off the gathering, the mission field changes, fullness of the gospel changed because of the pressure from the U.S. Government.

2. and the over flowing scourge as a time line too, was the 1920 flu epidemic that killed millions.

3. Prophesy of John Taylor in the 1886 Revelation regarding the 7th president of the church, which happens to be Pres. Heber J. Grant.

4. Isaiah, Chapter 7, I think is regarding the 7th president of the Church.

Mrs. Heather, Monitor, I am not trying to discredit the church or talk nasty about it, Just the facts mama, just the facts. President John Taylor said it not me.

All of this leads me to believe that the “times of the Gentiles” has been fulfilled and we are closer to our Saviors coming than any of us believe. We may want to give excuses for not believing it is that close, as it makes us feel uncomfortable but the facts lead to this conclusion. And what if this conclusion is wrong and we get out of our daily sleepy life and start to prepare for His coming? Big deal so we were early, I would rather be early than late, wouldn’t you?

Not yet....you will know when this occurs when the missionaries are all called home and the calamities begins to remove many from this earth.

[Maya]

Not yet....you will know when this occurs when the missionaries are all called home and the calamities begins to remove many from this earth.

My DH had an interesting point to this... what if the missionaries are needed in each country to help people to gather?

I also refere to my dream where the missionaries were the ones gathering people visiting their homes and helping them to the Church.....