Are you worthy? A Campaign against LDS Women

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Allow me to summarize the following points so far:

According to the women here on this forum, we have learned a little bit.

1) Women are not oppressed in the church. This does not mean that there are challenges that need to be met and satisfied. Family routine, church callings, et all. Within these, women approach life differently than men.

2) Those women who do feel a sense of "worthlessness" is not feeling within the church per say (though some may feel that they are carrying a heavier burden some days), but that society today expects women to be a certain way - predominately from the perception of men (whether within the Church and outside of the Church).

3) The sense of feeling worthless is a common feeling, and that life is not all about having a "happy and pretty life". Success comes by conquering fear and failure. Sometimes we feel too overwhelmed, and other days, we feel like we are on top of the world. Things happen, circumstances occur, and we make do with the best that we have.

I know this is not exactly what is said, but my own interpretation and understanding of what is being conveyed.

[Loving_Wife]

I am not a member but wanted to post my 2 cents anyway... input would be great!

I think that the reason that most people "of the world" who are not members or have never had experiences with the Mormon church are lead by what they see on T.V. or what their religion says. It's easy to be lead into a belief, especially when you are trusting in your spirtual leaders. If your spirtual leader says to you "they are a cult we need to pray for their salvation" many are going to accept that blindly. There are going to be those that are going to take that to an extreme and go overbroad with it.

I was raised non-denominational christian. There were many times when growing up where it felt like my mom was "repressed" but as I grew my opinion changed. My mom was repressed because SHE ALLOWED it to happen. There is a huge difference between being submissive to your husband and accepting him to be what God called him to be, the head of the home and leader, and being repressed.

There is a huge difference between a husband who is leading his home in love and a man who is leading his home in dominance because "he's the man and has that right." Where I think this falls apart in many homes is when you have a husband not being obedient and a wife who is not be obedient as well. I would think that being obedient to a husband who was not following God would very much feel like repression.

It is not repression to submit to the leader of your home and whom God has called to lead your home.

Or am I missing something???

[ozzy]

Loving-wife: Only if you think God is repressive. But if you trust him, then it isn't repressive so much as part of his plan.

I personally don't like to think of women as house wives. Now this is coming from a single college dude, so please remember that I have no experience with any wife house or other. Anyway, the way I look at it is that I don't want my future wife to feel obligated to sit at home and clean all day. I would like her to be a stay at home Mom, and there is a difference. I am concerned about the well being of my future children, and I think it would be wonderful if my wife would be there for them when they are at home rather than just having the TV be there for them when they are at home. As for housework and chores, I feel that I should participate fairly in these rather than just unload everything onto her.

I hope I expressed that accurately. I've never really tried to quantify it really.

[Wisc]

The entire thing is a little obnoxious and sad. I personally find it condescending that a bunch of men would tell women "you aren't smart enough to pick a healthy, non-cultish religion on your own. Here, let us help you, you poor misguided lambs."

speaking of lambs, I hear little Bo Peep grew up to be a major babe!

[pam]

I am not a member but wanted to post my 2 cents anyway... input would be great!

I think that the reason that most people "of the world" who are not members or have never had experiences with the Mormon church are lead by what they see on T.V. or what their religion says. It's easy to be lead into a belief, especially when you are trusting in your spirtual leaders. If your spirtual leader says to you "they are a cult we need to pray for their salvation" many are going to accept that blindly. There are going to be those that are going to take that to an extreme and go overbroad with it.

I was raised non-denominational christian. There were many times when growing up where it felt like my mom was "repressed" but as I grew my opinion changed. My mom was repressed because SHE ALLOWED it to happen. There is a huge difference between being submissive to your husband and accepting him to be what God called him to be, the head of the home and leader, and being repressed.

There is a huge difference between a husband who is leading his home in love and a man who is leading his home in dominance because "he's the man and has that right." Where I think this falls apart in many homes is when you have a husband not being obedient and a wife who is not be obedient as well. I would think that being obedient to a husband who was not following God would very much feel like repression.

It is not repression to submit to the leader of your home and whom God has called to lead your home.

Or am I missing something???

I actually agree with much of what you have said..so no, I personally, don't think you are missing something.

[Moksha]

Symptom - I am so weary

Diagnosis - Slave to obedience

You believe you cannot gain God’s blessings until you prove you are worthy through your obedience.

Yet every time you fail to keep a condition of the laws and ordinances you prove you are unworthy.

There is no joy on this treadmill, only fatigue, failure and disappointment!

So is there a short blunt answer to this?

Should we have an theoretically equal bill board slogan to counter this?

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

So, I asked my wife this question (she agrees, I should not wrestle with the pigs in the mud), and she looked at me started laughing and asked me if I was serious. I explained to her my curiosity about this.

She provided some insights and details. For her, as an LDS Woman who went through a divorce, she made the mistake of comparing her life to that of someone else. "There is a happy and perfect Mormon Family. That mom is perfect,"

As we got to talking about us and our marriage, and women within the Church, she provided some unique perspectives.

The reality is that women who judge themselves by what they perceive other women in the Church do, sometimes crumble under this false pretense of "that is what a perfect Mormon Woman is supposed to do and be?" and when she can't measure up to that, that is when such feelings can creep in and build up until they feel oppressed.

What are your thoughts?

[mightynancy]

I often joke around with a friend of mine: she bemoans "Catholic guilt" and I rail against "Mormon perfect!" We don't do guilt, but we do "do" perfect, which is just as destructive. Those who don't understand doctrine are the ones who perpetuate the problem.

I don't think the whole problem rests within women who compare themselves to others. There *is* a culture of doing it all, and doing it all well, and doing it all utterly selflessly in our church. I have a time-consuming calling (YW pres) so I say no to most other requests. I don't go to the cannery, I don't clean the building except when it's the YW's turn, I even did my visiting teaching interview over the phone.

Those who don't have the courage to say no are the ones who end up depressed and overwhelmed. I'm not blaming them - "no" is a foreign concept for many of us. We need to watch how we treat people when they do say no. Lucky for me, I don't give a rip, but a more sensitive sister would have her feelings hurt by some of the feedback I get. Sometimes I think I have this calling in order to be the one who calls for a timeout.

[JudoMinja]

For starters, my mother is one of those women these billboards would target. She's depressed and pessimistic. She's always complaining about how heavy her burden is, how much is expected of her, how impossible it is to do everything. However, her faith in the church is amazing. Despite these weaknesses, she knows where her heart truly lies.

She has an obsessive compulsive personality and is constantly comparing herself to others. She takes the burdens of the world on her shoulders and doesn't know how or when to ask for help. She has not ever described herself as feeling opressed, but were she to do so, I know she would realize that such opression is brought on by herself and not any outside source.

Her perpetuating feelings of guilt, stress, anxiety, weariness, and depression are a cycle of her own making. There is help and happiness all around her if she would but see it and reach out for it.

My father is a man who runs his family with love, patience and understanding. He is the head of his household, and he deserves the respect such a position holds, but he also tempers his authority with a listening ear and a caring heart. My mother leaves all final big decisions for the family up to him, but he always counsels with her to determine her thoughts and opinions. Everything he does, he does with her health and welfare in mind.

Growing up I sometimes felt as though I was being pushed into a steriotypical role: Do the dishes, the cooking, the house cleaning, the child care, the laundry, the sewing, and don't worry about anything else. Many Young Women activities involved such activities and my mother is often trying to push them onto me- cooking and sewing in particular as I don't really enjoy them or do them much. But I understand better now.

While I do not necessarily have to enjoy all the tasks required for keeping a home together, I should most definitely know how to do them. Without this knowledge a home can become very chaotic. Money will be spent unneccesarily on fast food when meals could have been prepared that would have been healthier and less costly, or on new clothes that could have been easily patched or altered. This was the purpose of such activities in church.

Family is the all-important social unit, even without the church. When a family is lacking, compensation in other areas just doesn't cut it. Women who try to run away from the role ingrained in their very being are perpetuating the loss of the family unit. Schools are trying to teach what should be taught in homes. Government tries to compensate for slack in other areas. But problems in society are growing, and studies are beginning to come together in realizing that the only answer is to fix our homes.

Accepting the role of wife and mother is not oppression. Begrudging it and having it forced upon you is. Maybe there are some in the church who feel this way, but the over-riding majority will agree that the church empowers women. We are taught to embrace our divine roles, and in doing so we are able to grow, learn, and progress in so many aspects of our lives. Many doors are opened. Many opportunities become available, when we accept what is within our very biology.

This is another thing I never truly understood until I experienced true oppression. I married a man that tried to shape me as he willed, to force me to meet his expectations. He thought to glutton himself off my labors, to do as he pleased while I worked as both breadwinner and housewife. If anything could be compared to slavery it was what I went through with him. He thought to establish himself as a ruler of his household instead of a steward, and when the Lord sought to humble him for his pride he became rebellious.

Opression does not come from God. An opressed woman is a broken woman.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a church that liberates women. I am free to build myself up in all things. I am seeking my education, seeking work, caring for my son, finding fulfillment in exercising my talents and pursuing hobbies, and always keeping my mind open for more learning, more truth, more understanding, more growth. I am independant. I make my own decisions. And if I find the man who will be with me for eternity in this life, he will be a man who will likewise liberate me. He will take his role as leader of my home, but not ruler, and our family will prosper under his loving direction.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

For starters, my mother is one of those women these billboards would target. She's depressed and pessimistic. She's always complaining about how heavy her burden is, how much is expected of her, how impossible it is to do everything. However, her faith in the church is amazing. Despite these weaknesses, she knows where her heart truly lies.

She has an obsessive compulsive personality and is constantly comparing herself to others. She takes the burdens of the world on her shoulders and doesn't know how or when to ask for help. She has not ever described herself as feeling opressed, but were she to do so, I know she would realize that such opression is brought on by herself and not any outside source.

Her perpetuating feelings of guilt, stress, anxiety, weariness, and depression are a cycle of her own making. There is help and happiness all around her if she would but see it and reach out for it.

My father is a man who runs his family with love, patience and understanding. He is the head of his household, and he deserves the respect such a position holds, but he also tempers his authority with a listening ear and a caring heart. My mother leaves all final big decisions for the family up to him, but he always counsels with her to determine her thoughts and opinions. Everything he does, he does with her health and welfare in mind.

Growing up I sometimes felt as though I was being pushed into a steriotypical role: Do the dishes, the cooking, the house cleaning, the child care, the laundry, the sewing, and don't worry about anything else. Many Young Women activities involved such activities and my mother is often trying to push them onto me- cooking and sewing in particular as I don't really enjoy them or do them much. But I understand better now.

While I do not necessarily have to enjoy all the tasks required for keeping a home together, I should most definitely know how to do them. Without this knowledge a home can become very chaotic. Money will be spent unneccesarily on fast food when meals could have been prepared that would have been healthier and less costly, or on new clothes that could have been easily patched or altered. This was the purpose of such activities in church.

Family is the all-important social unit, even without the church. When a family is lacking, compensation in other areas just doesn't cut it. Women who try to run away from the role ingrained in their very being are perpetuating the loss of the family unit. Schools are trying to teach what should be taught in homes. Government tries to compensate for slack in other areas. But problems in society are growing, and studies are beginning to come together in realizing that the only answer is to fix our homes.

Accepting the role of wife and mother is not oppression. Begrudging it and having it forced upon you is. Maybe there are some in the church who feel this way, but the over-riding majority will agree that the church empowers women. We are taught to embrace our divine roles, and in doing so we are able to grow, learn, and progress in so many aspects of our lives. Many doors are opened. Many opportunities become available, when we accept what is within our very biology.

This is another thing I never truly understood until I experienced true oppression. I married a man that tried to shape me as he willed, to force me to meet his expectations. He thought to glutton himself off my labors, to do as he pleased while I worked as both breadwinner and housewife. If anything could be compared to slavery it was what I went through with him. He thought to establish himself as a ruler of his household instead of a steward, and when the Lord sought to humble him for his pride he became rebellious.

Opression does not come from God. An opressed woman is a broken woman.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a church that liberates women. I am free to build myself up in all things. I am seeking my education, seeking work, caring for my son, finding fulfillment in exercising my talents and pursuing hobbies, and always keeping my mind open for more learning, more truth, more understanding, more growth. I am independant. I make my own decisions. And if I find the man who will be with me for eternity in this life, he will be a man who will likewise liberate me. He will take his role as leader of my home, but not ruler, and our family will prosper under his loving direction.

Can I post this on my blog? I would love to have this there. It speaks volumes and it definitely gives insights into the issue that is honest and objective. It speaks poignantly and real.

[JudoMinja]

Certainly. I love to help wherever I can, and if posting this on your blog will be of some help to someone, then go right ahead.

[Snow]

I once got in touch with my feminine side but then I started to oppress myself and then had to talk to the Bishop about it.

[Misshalfway]

Often I wish we talking more about balance in the church. I think we talk from both sides of our mouths.

"Don't run faster than you have strength" but you better hang all the right stuff in your house or you are ashamed of your faith. (sorry from another thread -- couldn't think of another example.)

We are a principle based church. Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves. Even the Lord went out in the corn field on the Sabbath. He did that because he had the vision! A vision we all can have too.

Sometimes I think members of the church are very spiritually healthy but not necessarily emotionally healthy and I think Satan takes advantage of that. I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is about creating all kinds of health inside of a person and certainly that is reflected in balanced behaivors. And on top of it all of us are given an individualized curriculum to teach us and try us and help us develop as God would like. That means all of our journey's might look and feel really different.

So gosh! Let's give ourselves and everyone else around us a big giant release from all this perfection. We'll be more Christlike and more happy if we do.

[Carl62]

If they were to put the letter 'F' next to their LDS message, then they'd have it right.

[beefche]

Miss 1/2, I hear ya.

I once had a really busy time in my life. So busy that I considered hiring a maid service to help clean. But I was too embarrassed about the sorry state of cleanliness of my house to hire a maid! Where does that sick thinking come from?

Sometimes, I think women get caught up in the little things and we miss the big things. Look at Mary and Martha. So caught up in making and serving dinner and worried about clean up, that we miss feasting at our Lord's feet.

Since my insane thinking moment, I've stopped apologizing for the state of my home. If it looks lived in, then great--someone actually lives here. And I try to make it clear to others that I don't care if their kid's toys are scattered about the house. I'm not there taking inventory--I'm there to visit or serve or whatever.

I don't want to be a Martha (or is it Mary? I can never remember between the 2). I want to take care of what needs to be taken care of, but remember that sometimes other important things are a priority.

[Carl62]

They need to put the 'F' next to the LDS part of their message. Then they'd have it right.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Certainly. I love to help wherever I can, and if posting this on your blog will be of some help to someone, then go right ahead.

I posted it, so anyone is open to come over and comment on this article: Are you Worthy? An LDS Woman's Perspective. Come share your thoughts, testimony, and perspectives.

[oldfashionedgirl]

Symptom - I am so weary

I’m surviving but it seems like I’m on a never-ending treadmill to nowhere. Every time I seem to progress I trip myself up. I try so hard; so where is the joy?

Diagnosis - Slave to obedience

Top

A central principle of the LDS Church is that all blessings are predicated upon obedience to God’s commandments. “Heavenly Father won’t bless you unless you first prove you are worthy”. This principle spurs people on to work hard to earn God’s blessings.

You think you are bound by obedience to gain God’s blessings. You have become a slave. Your master is the set of laws and ordinances you must obey. You feel that you are on a never-ending treadmill to nowhere because:

You believe you cannot gain God’s blessings until you prove you are worthy through your obedience.

Yet every time you fail to keep a condition of the laws and ordinances you prove you are unworthy.

There is no joy on this treadmill, only fatigue, failure and disappointment!.

So obedience to God=Slavery????

I just don't understand....

Personally, as a woman in the church I feel that freedom abounds from keeping the commandments and our covenants. Why shouldn't it??

One of the problems that does plague LDS women isn't that the men are oppressing us, but we are oppressing ourselves. We keep looking side to side at what our neighbor is wearing, or cooking, or buying. This oppression comes from comparison. But I don't think that this is just a problem within the church-there are hundreds of other women comparing themselves to others. THAT is slavery. Not obedience to God....THAT is freedom.

Sisters-let's stop looking sideways and start looking up.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

So obedience to God=Slavery????

I just don't understand....

Personally, as a woman in the church I feel that freedom abounds from keeping the commandments and our covenants. Why shouldn't it??

One of the problems that does plague LDS women isn't that the men are oppressing us, but we are oppressing ourselves. We keep looking side to side at what our neighbor is wearing, or cooking, or buying. This oppression comes from comparison. But I don't think that this is just a problem within the church-there are hundreds of other women comparing themselves to others. THAT is slavery. Not obedience to God....THAT is freedom.

Sisters-let's stop looking sideways and start looking up.

OldFashionedgirl:

I agree with you 100%. Yet, according to most of the Counter-cult's attack on Mormonism, it centers around the idea and false pretense that because we are teaching that it is important to obey Christ and follow after Christ, that we are teaching a "Work's based religion" where it is about oppression and not liberation through Jesus Christ. This comes about because of their perverse misunderstanding of the Biblical Text.

While it is sad, many people - including those LDS Women who are caught up in the deception that is being laid out for them, that the stress on perfection sets up a person for automatic failure, which in turn creates an endless cycle of depression and oppression. This is further from the truth.

Thank you for providing your comments here.

[ozzy]

So is there a short blunt answer to this?

Should we have an theoretically equal bill board slogan to counter this?

Sure there is a short blunt billboard answer.

Symptom: I am weary

Diagnosis: Lack of sleep/too much repetition

Solution: Try to take a nap. Ask husband for help. Add more variety to life. I personally enjoy video games.

Okay so these don't necessarily go together, I am sure there are other causes of weariness. But obedience to God isn't necessarily the cause and if it is then there may be need for a change in perspective. Look at the missionaries. They wear themselves out going all over the place looking for people to teach and yet they find plenty of joy even in the less successful times. It sounds to me as though the individuals who wrote that billboard haven't really experienced the joy of serving the Lord with hard work.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Sure there is a short blunt billboard answer.

Symptom: I am weary

Diagnosis: Lack of sleep/too much repetition

Solution: Try to take a nap. Ask husband for help. Add more variety to life. I personally enjoy video games.

Okay so these don't necessarily go together, I am sure there are other causes of weariness. But obedience to God isn't necessarily the cause and if it is then there may be need for a change in perspective. Look at the missionaries. They wear themselves out going all over the place looking for people to teach and yet they find plenty of joy even in the less successful times. It sounds to me as though the individuals who wrote that billboard haven't really experienced the joy of serving the Lord with hard work.

But serving God requires WORKS and that just cant happen because you have to rely upon Jesus Christ for everything. If you have to "prove yourself" then you are in spiritual bondage and Christ came to set you free.

It is amazing how misunderstood many Evangelicals are - and yet ask them to study the doctrine of Sanctification. You will find that they essentially have to agree that their faith in Christ and God has to be cultivated through scripture study, showing charity, showing Christ like attributes - ultimately Works.

[ozzy]

Hmmm, yep I agree with that. As far as the mormon-evangelical relationship goes, I think the biggest problem is that we as members of the church misrepresent ourselves when discussing the issue. We actually literally believe that we can't do anything to save ourselves. Just like them. We really do emphasize faith. Just like them. Sadly, we aren't so great at explaining that we actually act because of our faith and don't believe that our works themselves save us. And I don't actually excuse myself from this slip-up. I tend to present it just like all the other mormons. The problem that evangelicals have is that they don't quantify the active demands of faith in their arguments. If they did we wouldn't disagree so much. But we are all at fault in some way.

As for the billboard group, I admit that I simply get tired of arguments that aren't well thought out (though I make plenty :) I admit hypocracy and spelling errors since I can't get this thing to tell me I am spellin hypocracy right. :)). Which is better? Being a slave to God through obedience? Or a slave to Satan through a lack of obedience? I think they should have thought about that. And I think they need an attitude change towards serving God. We get no blessings when we have a bad attitude.

As for proving ourselves, I agree thoroughly. When we measure ourselves against man, we stop fearing God and will never gain nour full potential.

And as for the video game comment I made, sorry, I was just being snide. :) Actually my whole comment was meant as a crack against the billboard. Honestly I don't really know what to make of the whole weariness thing. I'm neither a woman, nor married so I may never experience what the actual topic of this thread encompasses. Though I do plan on being married some day so maybe I will get somewhere. :)

[RipplecutBuddha]

Speaking from the male perspective, and having been married, I can tell you that I'd rather have a wife that I can respect and count on to keep me humble when needed. I've known men in the church that oppress their wives, and let me tell you how often they moan about how much work it is to 'keep them in line.' It rips my heart to peices to hear it directly, much less know it's going on at all.

Even though I'm divorced, I always regarded my wife as at the very least, my equal. Most of the time I looked up to her many good qualities. She was intelligent, well spoken, creative, funny, a loving mother to her son...I would have destroyed all that I loved her for if I decided to try and 'oppress' her. Why would I want that at all?

What is missed by those outside the church, and by the posters of the billboards, is that only by obedience to the gospel can any of us (man or woman) hope to reach our full potential in this life.

It has nothing to do with being obedient to your husband, but to God...and what Christian religion could possibly have a problem with being obedient to God? Really? After all, Husbands have the very same responsibility of obedience to God, but with a greater amount of accountability due to being a priesthood holder.

I think it speaks very highly of women in the church that a male NEEDS to be a worthy priesthood holder just to enter the Celestial Kingdom, but a woman has no similar need. Also, in order to reach the highest level...man and woman need each other.

Some people simply need to open their bible and re-read the whole thing. Once you commit to just citing verses and phrases, the entire message is lost almost immediately. On the other hand, some people want exactly that to happen.

[rayhale]

I think that people confuse laws of God, with laws of culture. Are women oppressed? Yes! Are women oppressed by the Church? NO!!! During the early days of the Church, Mormon women were pretty progressive for their times. The Relief Society fought for the right of women to vote. I think that people see that since women don’t have the Priesthood, then they aren’t worthy of it. I do have a question for women, you have fought for your right to vote, just to have the right to be bare-foot and pregnant?

Is oppression toward women found in the Bible, the way that Biblical people saw women, or the 16th century translators of the Bible? I strongly say it’s the 16th century’s view, not really the view of the people of the Bible. There are several accounts in the Bible of prophetesses, women preaching the gospel. I can’t see why some people within our church will see women as something that is beneath man.

Edited January 18, 2010 by rayhale

[JudoMinja]

Not holding the priesthood does not mean women are beneath men. The Priesthood is the power to act in God's name, and as God is male it is therefore given to his male children. This does not mean women are losing out on anything! Quite the contrary.

Women are able to receive all the blessings of the Priesthood, just as men are, maybe even more so. Men, traditionally and correctly are the leaders, the head of their household. Women are their support and guidance. Women are equals, just not the same. Only one person can lead. If two were to attempt to take on the leadership role it would cause confusion and misdirection. Priesthood is a tool given the leader of the home.

This does not mean God will not bless women with his power and authority. In the case that there is no Priesthood bearer available, a woman may receive power directly from the Lord, so long as she seeks it with the intent to do His will.

In some ways, not being given the Priesthood is a sign of greater strength. Women are naturally more spiritually oriented - I hate stereotypes but my experience has shown this one to be true with few exceptions. The Priesthood is a responsibility that helps focus men on their spirituality, a responsibility women simply do not need.

So many people get caught on this. So many people are led away because they see this lack of Priesthood power in women as repression. Women do not need to be given Priesthood authority to become equal with men. We are already equal. Our role is simply different, and the requirements to fulfill that role different. It does not, in any way, make us man's lesser. Just different.