Questions about my eternal future and destiny (am gay).

[HappyGuy989]

Hi, I was born into an LDS family in Victoria, Australia. I've been a bit conflicted throughout life between my sexuality and faith. I'm 23 years old, male, gay, and single. I thought these forums might be a useful avenue of inquiry as I don't often discuss these issues with other church members or even my family. Here are some of the questions I've been wondering about:

1. Am I expected to attempt to enter an eternal marriage in this life?

2. Is mortality the only window of opportunity one has to form an eternal marriage relationship?

3. Does gods decree to have children to replenish the earth apply to me as a gay man?

4. When I'm granted a perfected body when I'm resurrected does that partly mean I'll no longer be same sex attracted or does that depend on my level of righteousness in mortality?

I look forward to any insights provided.

[Just_A_Guy]

You may want to take a look at this Church pamphlet. I think the answer to your questions 1-3 are "not necessarily", and #4 would be "we don't know."

[WmLee]

This is where you get MY IDEAS and only my ideas on this one. I am in no way expressing anything for the church.

I believe that when we accepted this plan we also accepted the possibility that some of our physical/mental development would/could be “different”. Since our physical material would be a mixture of chromosomes, DNA, (you know, all that stuff) from two imperfect mortal people there was a possibility that the patterns of our “stuff” would/could be altered through genetics, we knew some may have attractions that were a little different.

When you enter into an eternal marriage you are making celestial, eternal covenants. If you can’t, in full conscious and with full conviction, make that covenant, you shouldn’t. Would you be “punished, or given less because you can’t? I don’t see how should you keep and live by His commandments, I don’t see how.

I had a sister in the ward who never married, never had the desire to marry, preferred the company of a “friend”. She was a strong, faithful member who often attended the temple and was always first in line to help anyone. I fully believe she answered each question for her temple recommend honestly. I feel she controlled her behavior and lived a life she felt her Father in Heaven expected her to life under her circumstances.

[ruthiechan]

From the linked pamphlet:

You are a son or daughter of God, and our hearts reach out

to you in warmth and affection. Notwithstanding your present

same-gender attractions, you can be happy during this life, lead

a morally clean life, perform meaningful service in the Church,

enjoy full fellowship with your fellow Saints, and ultimately

receive all the blessings of eternal life.

I also believe that once you are resurrected you will no longer have the issue with same gender attraction.

[HappyGuy989]

Hi, thanks for the responses so far. I read the pamphlet suggested. It evoked mixed emotions in me because it's something very personal. I find it frustrating that I can't pursue marriage in the church like my brothers have. Both of my brothers have married, 1 of them with children. I find and have found jealously and frustration creeping into to what should be complete happiness for them. I'm expected to remain celibate my entire life assuming my sexuality doesn't change(as far as I know sexuality is unchangeable)? Having a partner would make life so much easier, someone to share lifes burdens with, and yet I'm denied this if I want to remain a part of the church? I suffered quite a bit in high school because I hadn't learnt yet to conceal my sexuality. I didn't have any problems in primary school, I think because I knew all of my year level from a very early age (the high-school I went to was in a different area). So all of that makes it even more personal. So..socially I'm disadvantaged because of it, I can't pursue a relationship with another guy if I'm to continue associating with the church I was born into, I hear about the violence and discrimination inflicted on others like me across the world on the basis of something they had no control over, ect. Any advice on combating the increasing bitterness I'm feeling? I'm beginning to feel as if the plan of salvation is somewhat flawed. Like simply considering how the vast majority of heavenly fathers children are worse off because of it. I mean, pre-plan all of us are in the fathers presence, post-plan one third of us are destined to hell, and the rest are very unlikely to re-obtain what they had(living in the presence of the father). I just had to vent, only a handful of people I know know I'm going through this challenge.

Edited March 25, 2010 by HappyGuy989

[ruthiechan]

The answer is, let the Spirit be your guide.

Maybe, you will be able to find someone you can take the Temple. I have heard of this happening before, all under the direction of the Spirit. So, all is not lost.

Have faith and trust in the Lord to provide you with whatever it is that you need.

*hugs*

[Rydney]

Personally, I think anything is possible through the Spirit, but I can only say that about myself and my experiences, and I am not gay, so that is very easy for me to say in regards to your situation. I wanted to add my two cents here because of your question: "Any advice on combating the increasing bitterness I'm feeling?" My answer is yes, be yourself, whatever that may mean for you, and as long as you are a good person and not hurting anyone else you are a better person than most religious people already, and I would add that this is true not in spite of your sexuality, but because of it. Your experiences will make you capable of giving back in ways heterosexuals cannot. I have struggled with my church membership because the bible clearly makes a stronger case for at least civil gay marriage than against it-and the complete ignoring of the commandment not to eat meat, but that's for another time-and yet here you are having to question yourself because of the picking and choosing that goes on in all modern christian churches. Practice chastity until you find someone you want to spend your life with, and devote yourself to that person, and know that you have lived a Christ like life. Marrying a woman and having children with her when you know you are gay will ultimately cause more harm than good, as you will either suffer depression at some point and not be able to pull out of it because you cannot be yourself, or you will leave her to finally be yourself. It happens all the time and is just one more reason civil gay marriage is the right thing to do, so find a man to spend your life with, be faithful to him, and serve the Lord however he may ask of you, but that will never be denying who you are.

[pam]

Practice chastity until you find someone you want to spend your life with, and devote yourself to that person, and know that you have lived a Christ like life

Let me make sure I'm understanding here. Are you saying that it's okay to NOT practice chastity once you find someone you want to spend your life with?

[Faded]

Hi, thanks for the responses so far. I read the pamphlet suggested. It evoked mixed emotions in me because it's something very personal. I find it frustrating that I can't pursue marriage in the church like my brothers have. Both of my brothers have married, 1 of them with children. I find and have found jealously and frustration creeping into to what should be complete happiness for them. I'm expected to remain celibate my entire life assuming my sexuality doesn't change(as far as I know sexuality is unchangeable)?

I know that I'm not in your position, so I can't know how it would be, but I know I've heard the General Authorities say that it IS changeable on several occasions. The thing that I can't offer you any guidance on is how, but I know it's possible.

Now according to the gay rights movement:

A.) Your born same-sex attracted.

B.) You can't change it.

They have no proof of this of course. But you hear it through media sources so often that many people just accept it as absolute truth.

The natural man is an enemy to God. This has many, many applications. The things the natural man wants will come into direct opposition to the will of God.

I feel for you and I wish I had something more helpful to offer. I do know that the Church has resources for these things.

[marts1]

Do not take this advice...I have read one or two true stories where people have changed thier same sex desires permanently.

[Suzie]

I do not have the answers that you are looking for so I won't attempt to give my own view in such sensitive topic however I want to extend my love and prayers to you and your particular situation.

[HappyGuy989]

Maybe in making this thread I was asking things I didn't want to hear the answers of. My life experience tells me that atleast for me it's unchangeable. I'd be very skeptical at reports that people have changed as well for a number of other reasons. I learned of the gay reparative therapy that goes on and about how ineffective, harmful, and bogus the programs are. So I'm not about to actively try to change my sexuality. You'd need to be fairly desperate to want to do that though in my opinion, especially in the case of resorting to supposed psychotherapy. I've decided I don't want it to change. Sure I might have been better off if I was straight but I've been made a different way and I have to deal with it. I have to vent the offense I feel at the notions that in the next life non-straight sexuality will non-existent, that it's not consistent with gods plan for the happiness of his children and that it's a physical imperfection to be suppressed. If those are truths I find them to be very hard (can relate to figures in scripture who felt the same way in general about the truth being hard). To think that something that's been a part of who I am as long as I can remember is going to be completely erased. It actually makes me feel resentful and slightly angry. Again I might of been asking things I didn't really want to hear the answers of.

How can I vest my whole life on the assumption that everything the LDS church tells me is truth? As I've thought more about various LDS doctrines, the more they've seemed bogus to me. Like the plan of salvation for example, pre-plan all of us are in the presence of the father, post-plan one third of us are destined to hell and the rest are very unlikely to reobtain living with the father. It seems the plan falls short of its intent, our progression(EDIT: I said this in my previous post).

Also, concerning the devil, why would lucifer knowingly propagate the plan of salvation? By tempting adam and eve he in effect set it in motion, and by himself and his angels providing mankind with adversity and temptation they provide much of the basis for our earthly existance. Why would a being as supposedly cunning as the devil play right into gods hand like this? Also, shouldn't there be extensive archaeological evidence of the civilizations and peoples talked about in the book of mormon? Why haven't I heard about the ancient nephites or lamanites at any point during my secular education? Also how is the vast amount of physical evidence supporting evolution and suggesting recent human ancestors explained? And the dating methods that suggest humanity is far older than purported in the bible? Following from that why would god only interact with humanity for the past 5000 to 6000 years of its history? I'm beginning to believe that the notion that we're literal offspring of the ruler of the universe to just be a relic of human arrogance, not unlike the old beliefs that Earth is the centre of the universe and that the sun revolves around the earth. When I try to consider how vast the universe is I'm awe-struck. Watch this video on the scale of our planet compared to our galaxy, and consider that we know of hundreds of billions of other galaxies in the visible universe alone.

YouTube - The universe - How big are you?

For me it only amplifies the perception that we're far less significant in creation than we make ourselves out to be.(If these questions have been brought up before apologies, and apologies if anyone is offended by the nature of the questions, I am questioning the very foundation of the churches religious doctrine).

The only reason I don't completely turn my back on the church is out of fear. The church is quite clear on what it considers sexual morality and what is an acceptable relationship in the eyes of god, sexual immorality is a sin next to murder. For the past decade I've suffered from depression, I've felt shame, guilt, and internal conflict. I don't understand what it is to have a personal relationship with Christ or how that would make me feel better. I'm supposed to feel good that he suffered excruciatingly and had his life cut short for our benefit? All that makes me feel is ashamed and guilty, on top of the shame and guilt I've already felt over my sexuality. I can only conclude being born into the church has not been a positive influence on my life. I got baptized at the age of 8, something I now regret. I think the age of baptism should be increased, you're entering into a covenant with God, at the age of 8 you're not sufficiently mature to be making that sort of decision. So if I reject the atonement I'll suffer for 1000 years in outer darkness before being granted a place in the Telestial kingdom? Given the era in which I've lived, and what I've gone through in life so far, that doesn't seem just to me.

Edited March 24, 2010 by HappyGuy989

[marts1]

So I'm not about to actively try to change my sexuality. You'd need to be fairly desperate to want to do that though in my opinion

You and those similar are not alone with weakness's or hardships. It took all of my effort and took a long time for me to get over a pornograghic habit I had. Over time it gets easier and easier, but I suspect I will have to control natural urges always.

[Finrock]

Good morning HappyGuy989. It is a pleasure to meet you and welcome to the forums! :)

First of all, let me comment that Rydney's advice is not good advice at all. Essentially he is advocating that you commit sin, which is never a good thing.

I'm going to be quoting a lot from this interview of Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman about same-gender attraction. If you haven't read this before, I suggest that you do. I think it addresses and answers many of the questions and concerns you have presented. Here is the link.

I think one important concept needs to be understood about our imperfect mortal condition. All of us are born with conditions, susceptabilities, and imperfections that we will need to suppress and control. You need to realize that your problem is not unique and I don't mean that in the sense that there are other gay LDS people, but rather it is a natural condition of mortality to have tendencies that we must learn to control. This is precisely what the Plan of Salvation is about. It is about us living the gospel of Jesus Christ and drawing upon the mercy of Jesus and the power of His atonement to overcome our trials and our adversities, including inclinations and tendencies we are born with.

It is a false notion to suppose that simply because we might have an inclination towards something that we must act on that inclination. Elder Oaks, speaking specifically about homosexuality commented the following:

"Yes, homosexual feelings are controllable. Perhaps there is an inclination or susceptibility to such feelings that is a reality for some and not a reality for others. But out of such susceptibilities come feelings, and feelings are controllable. If we cater to the feelings, they increase the power of the temptation. If we yield to the temptation, we have committed sinful behavior. That pattern is the same for a person that covets someone else’s property and has a strong temptation to steal. It’s the same for a person that develops a taste for alcohol. It’s the same for a person that is born with a ‘short fuse,’ as we would say of a susceptibility to anger. If they let that susceptibility remain uncontrolled, it becomes a feeling of anger, and a feeling of anger can yield to behavior that is sinful and illegal" (Source).

Know also the promise that God has given to His children that, “[t]here hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” (1 Cor. 10:13).

I do not pretend to understand your particular struggle but I do know that for those who desire to be disciples of Christ, they can find a way to live happy and fulfilling lives in the gospel of Jesus Christ despite their inclinations. I like what Elder Wickman said on this matter:

"I think I would say to...anyone that was [struggling with same-gender attraction] to strive to expand your horizons beyond simply gender orientation. Find fulfillment in the many other facets of your character and your personality and your nature that extend beyond that. There’s no denial that one’s gender orientation is certainly a core characteristic of any person, but it’s not the only one.

What’s more, merely having inclinations does not disqualify one for any aspect of Church participation or membership, except possibly marriage...But even that, in the fullness of life as we understand it through the doctrines of the restored gospel, eventually can become possible.

In this life, such things as service in the Church, including missionary service, all of this is available to anyone who is true to covenants and commandments."

The worst thing for anyone is to forsake the gospel for any reason. Cling on to it with your might and pray with sincerity, with faith, and with real intent to have your testimony strengthened. Do those things you know are right in the gospel and rely on Jesus Christ and His mercy and you will find peace.

Kind Regards,

Finrock

[JudoMinja]

This is the first time I've ever outwardly said anything about same-gender-attraction, so I'm sorry if I come off on the wrong foot.

To me, struggles with homosexual tendancies are really no different than struggles with heterosexual tendancies. Both are constituted to "the natural man" and need to be mastered. There are many in the world who struggle with pornography, masterbation, and sexual-transgression. These are all linked. It is an attack on chastity and virtue. Any attraction you feel for another, man or woman, should not be acted on outside the bounds of marriage. No matter how much you love said person, there should be no physical intimacy, no sexual exploration of any kind, without the binding covenant of marriage.

Being gay does not make you abnormal. You face the same struggle with lust, desire, and longing as anyone else. Everyone, no matter their orientation, needs to master these feelings or find your feelings mastering you.

[Rydney]

Let me make sure I'm understanding here. Are you saying that it's okay to NOT practice chastity once you find someone you want to spend your life with?

Is there a reason you are construing negative meanings from very simple statements I am making? You accused me of being contentious in the discussion about meat, yet you follow me to another thread and start asking absurd questions about very simple, straightforward statements I have made, obviously in the hope of starting a fight. If you had an valid question I would be more than happy to discuss it with you, but the silliness of the question betrays your true intention, so I'm not even going to address it. You said you were done with me in a previous thread, why don't you keep your word on that and move on okay? The hypocrisy in the meat discussion was mind numbing enough, I would ask you that unless I am talking directly to you to stop talking to me on these forums, I came here to get answers, not get harassed by someone who doesn't like my opinions and follows me around from thread to thread in some bizarre attempt to project her anger onto me through the internet.

[Rydney]

Do not take this advice...I have read one or two true stories where people have changed thier same sex desires permanently.

Of course these stories are never substantiated and when pressed are always provided by the church, the stories involve absurdly small numbers of people, and are provided by an independent source. Beware of the crucial difference between the Spirit of the LDS Church and the culture of mormonism. They are very different things. Listen to the Spirit, do not listen to the homophobic culture.

[Rydney]

You and those similar are not alone with weakness's or hardships. It took all of my effort and took a long time for me to get over a pornograghic habit I had. Over time it gets easier and easier, but I suspect I will have to control natural urges always.

You are free to put those heterosexual desires to watch pornography into a wife, and thereby have an acceptable solution and release, which no homosexual person is afforded, so this is not analogous in any way.

[Elgama]

My best friend is gay and whilst I can't understand what you are going through I do know the amount of pain he experienced. And I do think its something in you and unchangeable at least in mortality. I suspect I may be classed as bisexual not sure as I am capable of finding a woman very attractive

I have nothing really useful to add except have you seen the film Bob and Rose? It was written by Russell T Davies the writer of Queer as Folk and recent Dr Who. I don't know how practical it is but he wrote it because of real people he had met who were gay but fell in love with women, they didn't stop being gay, and he was upset about the way the gay community had treated them.

As Latter Day Saints we are taught any 2 good people can make a marriage work. I married my husband because he was a good man, the passion came later because he was a good man and my feelings for him have nothing to do with him being male or female. You would have to have a wife who was particularly special because unless you are honest with her it would be a source of conflict in your marriage. But I also know the idea would make my best friend sick otherwise we'd have been married a long time by now. My husband refers to him as my other husband lol and I do know he told the nurses at the hospital he was the father of my baby (when asked he said my husband, was my husband lol) no wonder I got funny looks but did mean he could come in. He is also the guardian we have nominated if something should happen to both of us

I do feel that learning to enjoy being single and appreciate it is important for any Latter Day Saint as any one of us could be celibate all our lives. Have you taken this to the Temple?

[Rydney]

First of all, let me comment that Rydney's advice is not good advice at all. Essentially he is advocating that you commit sin, which is never a good thing.

This is a typical cultural response to this issue, but those who think about things deeply know it to be laughably oversimplified. First of all, no one can go through this life without committing sin, and often times there is no choice, as in killing in combat, but the decision is made to do what is the least sinful-or often those things that are sins are simply ignored, but that is another issue. In the case of the gay and lesbian community, so much evil has been brought forth through violence, discrimination, and personal struggle such as the one being discussed here, that it is far more sinful to continue this absurd notion that gays and lesbians should conform to a heterosexual standard than to accept these people and alleviate the evil that has come about through non-acceptance. Do not believe the fluffy feel good nonsense you will hear here, reality proves it to be incorrect. You, the world, and those you have contact with are better off if you accept yourself and live your life rather than suppress it and contribute to the evil that has come about from the opinions you will see on these forums about homosexuality. This does not condone the well established promiscuity of the gay and lesbian community however, which is clearly not in your or anyone's best interest to engage in. I say this because promiscuity and homosexuality are often seen as one in the same, but they do not have to be.

[Rydney]

This is the first time I've ever outwardly said anything about same-gender-attraction, so I'm sorry if I come off on the wrong foot.

To me, struggles with homosexual tendancies are really no different than struggles with heterosexual tendancies. Both are constituted to "the natural man" and need to be mastered. There are many in the world who struggle with pornography, masterbation, and sexual-transgression. These are all linked. It is an attack on chastity and virtue. Any attraction you feel for another, man or woman, should not be acted on outside the bounds of marriage. No matter how much you love said person, there should be no physical intimacy, no sexual exploration of any kind, without the binding covenant of marriage.

Being gay does not make you abnormal. You face the same struggle with lust, desire, and longing as anyone else. Everyone, no matter their orientation, needs to master these feelings or find your feelings mastering you.

This is a terribly ignorant response, since as has been mentioned homosexuals have no outlet for any sexual desire, and are forced into a life of celibacy in regards to their true desires. Could you live a life as a lesbian, denying all of your heterosexual desires? No, you could not, and neither can a homosexual live a life as a heterosexual, denying all of their desires. It is not even close to the same as a desire for pornography that can be satisfied through sex with your spouse.

[Elgama]

This is a terribly ignorant response, since as has been mentioned homosexuals have no outlet for any sexual desire, and are forced into a life of celibacy in regards to their true desires. Could you live a life as a lesbian, denying all of your heterosexual desires? No, you could not, and neither can a homosexual live a life as a heterosexual, denying all of their desires. It is not even close to the same as a desire for pornography that can be satisfied through sex with your spouse.

actually for a Latter Day Saint man or woman having to deny your sexual desires throughout your life is a possibility. If I hadn't married my husband at 26 and I was still single I would indeed be celibate

[Rydney]

actually for a Latter Day Saint man or woman having to deny your sexual desires throughout your life is a possibility. If I hadn't married my husband at 26 and I was still single I would indeed be celibate

But you are not, and had a solution to not being so which you utilized, and would have always had that solution no matter what your age, which homosexuals do not have, cannot have, and never will have. There is no comparison.

[JudoMinja]

This is a terribly ignorant response, since as has been mentioned homosexuals have no outlet for any sexual desire, and are forced into a life of celibacy in regards to their true desires. Could you live a life as a lesbian, denying all of your heterosexual desires? No, you could not, and neither can a homosexual live a life as a heterosexual, denying all of their desires. It is not even close to the same as a desire for pornography that can be satisfied through sex with your spouse.

I do not speak out of ignorance. I've given a lot of careful thought to the topic- the reason I have not openly said anything about it until now. I have many gay/lesbian friends, even went through a period of my own where I thought I might be a lesbian.

There is only one correct outlet for your desire- a spouse. If you have no spouse, you have no outlet. Any other means to sequester sexual relief is wrong and sinful. I know how difficult it can be to reign in your desire. I had to overcome a porn/masterbation addiction and had pre-marital sex. I still struggle on my "horny" days or whenever I start feeling depressed, as this feeling creates a void I want to fill with the euphoria experience through sexual release.

The struggle of the homosexual is the same as that of the heterosexual. It seems different, because it appears that the heterosexual has more outlets, but really there is only one righteous outlet for everyone- marriage.

There are people who remain single their entire lives. Do these people struggle any less than a homosexual? What about the young widow/widower who goes their entire life without ever remarrying, devoted to their dead spouse? Do they struggle any less?

Sexual desire of any kind should be carefully treated with the sacredness it holds. We are given a wonderful gift and power, through God, to create life. When we remember the purpose of sex, it is easy to understand that the only true "outlet" is in the bonds of marriage. It is not a toy, animal urge, or instinct.

Many choose to remain celibate for various reasons. Abstinence is central to maintaining our virtue and honoring the law of chastity. We are not perfect, as I know from my own experience, but that does not mean we should choose the "lesser of two evils" or give in to commiting the "smaller" sin. All sin is tainting and cannot stand in God's presence. If we wish to obtain the celestial kingdom, we must cast off sin, master our desires, and strive always to live a righteous life.

Having a homosexual orientation is no more sinful than having sexual desire. What is sinful is acting on that outside the bounds of marriage. So, to be gay does not mean you are any less righteous or worthy than someone who is not gay. As long as you maintain celibacy, keep the law of chastity, and honor the sanctity of your sexual feelings, you have nothing to worry about.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Rydney. I hope you are doing well today! :)

In the case of the gay and lesbian community, so much evil has been brought forth through violence, discrimination, and personal struggle such as the one being discussed here, that it is far more sinful to continue this absurd notion that gays and lesbians should conform to a heterosexual standard than to accept these people and alleviate the evil that has come about through non-acceptance. Do not believe the fluffy feel good nonsense you will hear here, reality proves it to be incorrect. You, the world, and those you have contact with are better off if you accept yourself and live your life rather than suppress it and contribute to the evil that has come about from the opinions you will see on these forums about homosexuality. This does not condone the well established promiscuity of the gay and lesbian community however, which is clearly not in your or anyone's best interest to engage in. I say this because promiscuity and homosexuality are often seen as one in the same, but they do not have to be.

The Law of Chastity is not a "heterosexual standard." It is God's universal standard applicable to all persons. Sexual relations outside of marriage is sin (Alma 39:1-13). For one to advocate that it is OK to have sexual relations outside of marriage is advocating for sin. Satan advocates that we commit sin and Satan is an enemy to all righteousness. He wants us to be miserable like he is (2 Ne. 2:27). We will be miserable like he is when we commit sin because "wickedness never was happiness" (Alma 41:10). Therefore, your advice in this matter is not good advice at all. In fact it is evil advice and should be shunned by any disciple of Jesus Christ.

There are many heterosexual people who never marry yet they remain celibate. Suppressing sinful actions and conduct is precisely what we should do. We are not left defenseless in fighting sinful inclinations or temptations. We can overcome these things through the atonement of Jesus Christ. True disciples of Christ would never advocate that one give in to sinful urges and desires. Homosexual individuals are no exception. Their condition is not unique to the human condition. All of us must suppress, control, and change any sinful conduct or not act on sinful inclinations. It isn't the opinion of this forum that sexual relations outside of marriage are sinful and this includes homosexual sexual relations. This is God's word. It is His standard and that is what a person should be most concerned about. Thus far your position is diametrically opposed to what God and His prophets expects from us.

Regards,

Finrock