Questions about my eternal future and destiny (am gay).

[Guest]

Hello HappyGuy! Welcome to the forums.

I have a very recent experience that made me think of this issue. Last Friday, I went to visit my neighbor who just lost both her legs and both her hands due to some freak blood infection. One day she was an active, athletic girl living a healthy lifestyle. That night her bp dropped to 50/30, a few days later her legs died, a few more days later her hands died. Because of medication, they were able to save her vital organs and she survived the illness.

Now, I think about this and realize, this could happen to ANYONE at ANYTIME of their lives. Luckily, my friend is already married with 2 beautiful children.

Now, what if, she was a young single teen-ager when this happened? She would have been incapable of having children and would have very limited marital prospects.

What about my boss who was a quadriplegic who is incapable of reproduction or sexual fulfillment?

What about this guy?

Nick Vujicic

HappyGuy, being gay is just another one of life's challenges. You have them, I have them, everybody has them. My neighbor and Nick Vujicic figured out a way to live with their challenges and still move forward towards God's Kingdom. You will too. Have faith, my brother. Just remember, compared to Nick Vujicic, you got it good!

[rameumptom]

The Church has a standard. But there have always been exceptions to the rule/standard. As a Church, we have always dealt with single sisters who were never asked by a worthy LDS man to marry, as an acceptable exception.

We are now beginning to note the exception for others, including those with SSA. There is nothing wrong with waiting, serving the Lord and those around you, and keeping the commandments. If you remain celibate, you will have made a great sacrifice of obedience for the Lord. You will be greatly blessed for such a sacrifice. Focus on developing skills, talents, etc.

Not everyone gets the chance to have children, marry, etc in this life. I do not have any biological children of my own. I do have step-children. It isn't that we didn't try, we just never were able to have children of our own. And that is okay. My wife and I may not multiply and replenish the earth in mortality, but God will give us that blessing in the hereafter, if we remain faithful.

I admire those who can quietly follow God, even when it is extremely difficult and against LDS culture (marry young and have 12 kids).

[Just_A_Guy]

I've decided I don't want it to change.

Everything else in your post, flows from this.

I wish you the very best. But realistically speaking: as long as this remains your attitude, there is no doctrinal exposition, apologetic treatise, or even any heavenly manifestation that could or would change your mind; and your life's future path most likely lies outside of communion with the LDS Church.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Wisc]

Hi, thanks for the responses so far. I read the pamphlet suggested. It evoked mixed emotions in me because it's something very personal. I find it frustrating that I can't pursue marriage in the church like my brothers have. Both of my brothers have married, 1 of them with children. I find and have found jealously and frustration creeping into to what should be complete happiness for them. I'm expected to remain celibate my entire life assuming my sexuality doesn't change(as far as I know sexuality is unchangeable)? Having a partner would make life so much easier, someone to share lifes burdens with, and yet I'm denied this if I want to remain a part of the church? I suffered quite a bit in high school because I hadn't learnt yet to conceal my sexuality. I didn't have any problems in primary school, I think because I knew all of my year level from a very early age (the high-school I went to was in a different area). So all of that makes it even more personal. So..socially I'm disadvantaged because of it, I can't pursue a relationship with another guy if I'm to continue associating with the church I was born into, I hear about the violence and discrimination inflicted on others like me across the world on the basis of something they had no control over, ect. Any advice on combating the increasing bitterness I'm feeling? I'm beginning to feel as if the plan of salvation is somewhat flawed. Like simply considering how the vast majority of heavily fathers children are worse off because of it. I mean, pre-plan all of us are in the fathers presence, post-plan one third of us are destined to hell, and the rest are very unlikely to re-obtain what they had(living in the presence of the father). I just had to vent, only a handful of people I know know I'm going through this challenge.

I have BOLD type the areas of your comment I wish to reply to.

First off, you are given the SAME oportunity for eternal marriage as your brothers. Neither of them is able to have same gender relationships-same as you are not. They are living the will of Heavenly Father and you are not. This sounds like a whispered lie into your ear by the Advisary. (Look what they can have and you can not. You're denied that joy) Well, that simply is not true. Follow the Lord's will and you will also find joy.

Secondly, who told you that your sexuality is "unchangable?" Weakness is not who we are. Do you think a blind man was unable to see in the premortal world? Do you think a Leper's skin rotted off in Heaven? Of course not. These are challenges and hardships of this world that are meant to be overcome and sometimes endured for a long time. Your same sex attraction is no different. Just as some blindness can be cured and desease eradicated so too can your sexuality be altered.

The Lord has made His will clear, and you have been given the oportunity to show your love and desire to obey Him by facing this very difficult trial of same sex attraction. The advisary would have you think you're gross, or evil and without hope and that the Plan is fouled up and unfair to those like yourself. Well Satan was a liar from the beginning! With God all things are possible.

You have budding seeds of desire to live the gospel according to the Lord's will. Its evident in your words. Do not be fooled by clever misdirection from the other side. Embrace what you know is true and right. Ask the Lord for help. Do not be like me friend. Do not turn your back on the Lord.

[HappyGuy989]

I have BOLD type the areas of your comment I wish to reply to.

First off, you are given the SAME oportunity for eternal marriage as your brothers. Neither of them is able to have same gender relationships-same as you are not. They are living the will of Heavenly Father and you are not. This sounds like a whispered lie into your ear by the Advisary. (Look what they can have and you can not. You're denied that joy) Well, that simply is not true. Follow the Lord's will and you will also find joy.

Secondly, who told you that your sexuality is "unchangable?" Weakness is not who we are. Do you think a blind man was unable to see in the premortal world? Do you think a Leper's skin rotted off in Heaven? Of course not. These are challenges and hardships of this world that are meant to be overcome and sometimes endured for a long time. Your same sex attraction is no different. Just as some blindness can be cured and desease eradicated so too can your sexuality be altered.

The Lord has made His will clear, and you have been given the oportunity to show your love and desire to obey Him by facing this very difficult trial of same sex attraction. The advisary would have you think you're gross, or evil and without hope and that the Plan is fouled up and unfair to those like yourself. Well Satan was a liar from the beginning! With God all things are possible.

You have budding seeds of desire to live the gospel according to the Lord's will. Its evident in your words. Do not be fooled by clever misdirection from the other side. Embrace what you know is true and right. Ask the Lord for help. Do not be like me friend. Do not turn your back on the Lord.

I find this insistence that sexuality is changeable baffling. Apply the notion to yourself and you'll probably realize how ridiculous it is. You compare my sexuality to a curable disease? Call me proud, but I find that a little demeaning. Likewise with your assertion that I'm less righteous than my brothers. You said you turned your back on the lord?? EDIT: And I'm not given the same opportunity as my brothers, they can marry unopposed in mortality, and I have to hold my breath until the next life.

Edited March 25, 2010 by HappyGuy989

[HappyGuy989]

Did someone delete Rydney's responses? I couldn't see his posts yet people responded to further comments from him. EDIT: I notice it now says banned on his profile??

Edited March 25, 2010 by HappyGuy989

[HappyGuy989]

Everything else in your post, flows from this.

I wish you the very best. But realistically speaking: as long as this remains your attitude, there is no doctrinal exposition, apologetic treatise, or even any heavenly manifestation that could or would change your mind; and your life's future path most likely lies outside of communion with the LDS Church.

You make it sound as if my future is bleak spiritually. How can you be sure the Godhead would even want me to be free of this trial in mortality, it might be serving some grander purpose for me??

[sensibility]

Secondly, who told you that your sexuality is "unchangable?" Weakness is not who we are. Do you think a blind man was unable to see in the premortal world? Do you think a Leper's skin rotted off in Heaven? Of course not. These are challenges and hardships of this world that are meant to be overcome and sometimes endured for a long time. Your same sex attraction is no different. Just as some blindness can be cured and desease eradicated so too can your sexuality be altered.

True. But it is not a guarantee in any way, shape or form. God does work miracles for His children, no denying that, but sometimes the miracles take funny shapes. For some people -- none of whom I have ever spoken to personally -- He might work the miracle of completely ridding them of same-sex attraction. For some people, such as myself, He works the smaller, quieter miracle of helping them find one person they can be blissfully happy to marry, even if they can't even imagine being with anyone else of the opposite sex. For some people with same-sex attraction, just as for some who are straight but never find a partner, the miracle is giving them the strength to get through life without a spouse.

I think it's very clear in our doctrine that SSA is a challenge, not a sin. And a lot of times, maybe even most times, the challenge is here to stay for this life. It's dangerous at best to insist otherwise.

HappyGuy, I wish you all the best. I know what a dark place you're in right now. My advice to you would be to, first, pray for comfort and the Spirit's guidance. Then go to the scriptures and study everything you can find about the Plan of Salvation, the laws of justice and mercy, our eternal destinies, eternal marriage, and why we need to grow in faith and righteousness to reach exaltation. Try to see how it all fits together. Draw diagrams and charts if you have to. Then pray some more. If you truly do want to understand it, it will come together for you. If you don't want to understand it and you go in looking for reasons to declare it bogus, you probably won't. But understanding the Plan is absolutely vital for a true testimony, especially for those of us who struggle with SSA, so I hope you can find the sincere desire to understand why God set it up the way He did, and that you can begin to see how every facet of it is a reflection of God's absolute love and mercy towards His children. You won't find that understanding from talking to us, from looking at websites about the Church, from Sunday School or from Sacrament meeting talks -- you'll find it through scripture study and prayer, and asking the Spirit to be with you at all times.

[MarginOfError]

This is going to end up one big hodge podge of information. Some of it is my own personal interpretation based on scripture and knowledge of the world I've gained through my career in statistics. Some of it will be paraphrases of interpretations from the Church and from doctrine. I'll try to distinguish between the two as I go along.

Hi, I was born into an LDS family in Victoria, Australia. I've been a bit conflicted throughout life between my sexuality and faith. I'm 23 years old, male, gay, and single. I thought these forums might be a useful avenue of inquiry as I don't often discuss these issues with other church members or even my family. Here are some of the questions I've been wondering about:

1. Am I expected to attempt to enter an eternal marriage in this life?

2. Is mortality the only window of opportunity one has to form an eternal marriage relationship?

3. Does gods decree to have children to replenish the earth apply to me as a gay man?

4. When I'm granted a perfected body when I'm resurrected does that partly mean I'll no longer be same sex attracted or does that depend on my level of righteousness in mortality?

I look forward to any insights provided.

1. Only if you are willing and able to keep the covenants into which you enter. "Through the exercise of faith, individual effort, and reliance upon the power of the Atonement, some may overcome same-gender attraction in mortality and marry. Others, however, may never be free of same-gender attraction in this life...recognize that marriage is not an all-purpose solution. Same-gender attractions run deep, and trying to force a heterosexual relationship is not likely to change them. We are all thrilled when some who struggle with these feelings are able to marry, raise children, and achieve family happiness. But other attempts have resulted in broken hearts and broken homes" (Jeffrey Holland, Ensign, October 2007).

2. I don't know. But I wouldn't worry too much about it. Afterall, "we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25: 23). Instead, perhaps you should focus on the things you can do and not the things you can't do. If you do everything you can, I promise you that you will not be denied the blessings of exaltation.

3. Gods decree to have children applies to everyone. However, that doesn't mean that everyone will have children, nor that everyone should have children. "Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity" (The Family: A Proclamation to the World). But again, the Church speaks in generalities and principle. We know that there are exceptions. Elder Holland's quote above indicates that those who have same-gender attraction may be granted an exemption from this requirement, although that is best determined on an individual level.

4. The answer to this question is largely dependent on whether you believe same gender attraction is genetic or elective (Note: genetic and hereditary are not the same thing). Personally, I think it can be either or even both, depending on the individual, but more on that later. Suffice it to say for now, if same gender attraction is a choice, it won't be removed in the resurrection. If same gender attraction is genetic, then it would be. (logically speaking, anyway)

Practice chastity until you find someone you want to spend your life with, and devote yourself to that person, and know that you have lived a Christ like life. Marrying a woman and having children with her when you know you are gay will ultimately cause more harm than good, as you will either suffer depression at some point and not be able to pull out of it because you cannot be yourself, or you will leave her to finally be yourself. It happens all the time and is just one more reason civil gay marriage is the right thing to do, so find a man to spend your life with, be faithful to him, and serve the Lord however he may ask of you, but that will never be denying who you are.

The implication here that a homosexual person should not enter a heterosexual marriage is the only decent advice given. Remember, that is a bit of counsel that Elder Holland implied as well. However, the Church defines the law of chastity as "the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife" (The Family: A Proclamation to the World). The rest of the advice, including the implication that it's okay to engage in sexual relations with someone of the same gender (with or without marriage) is entirely non-doctrinal and counter productive to your eternal progression.

I know that I'm not in your position, so I can't know how it would be, but I know I've heard the General Authorities say that it IS changeable on several occasions. The thing that I can't offer you any guidance on is how, but I know it's possible.

Now according to the gay rights movement:

A.) Your born same-sex attracted.

B.) You can't change it.

They have no proof of this of course. But you hear it through media sources so often that many people just accept it as absolute truth.

The natural man is an enemy to God. This has many, many applications. The things the natural man wants will come into direct opposition to the will of God.

I feel for you and I wish I had something more helpful to offer. I do know that the Church has resources for these things.

There is also very little proof that people are not born same-sex attracted. The absence of evidence is not the same as proof of the opposing view point. Recall that at one point in history, it was widely accepted that two objects of different weight fell at different speeds. There was no evidence to indicate that acceleration due to gravity was 9.8m/s^2 for every object regardless of size. Gravitational acceleration wasn't accepted until the evidence could be assembled. The day may still come when we do have enough evidence to support the claim that same sex attraction is genetic.

Maybe in making this thread I was asking things I didn't want to hear the answers of. My life experience tells me that atleast for me it's unchangeable. I'd be very skeptical at reports that people have changed as well for a number of other reasons. I learned of the gay reparative therapy that goes on and about how ineffective, harmful, and bogus the programs are. So I'm not about to actively try to change my sexuality. You'd need to be fairly desperate to want to do that though in my opinion, especially in the case of resorting to supposed psychotherapy. I've decided I don't want it to change. Sure I might have been better off if I was straight but I've been made a different way and I have to deal with it. I have to vent the offense I feel at the notions that in the next life non-straight sexuality will non-existent, that it's not consistent with gods plan for the happiness of his children and that it's a physical imperfection to be suppressed. If those are truths I find them to be very hard (can relate to figures in scripture who felt the same way in general about the truth being hard). To think that something that's been a part of who I am as long as I can remember is going to be completely erased. It actually makes me feel resentful and slightly angry. Again I might of been asking things I didn't really want to hear the answers of.

Okay, here's my best understanding of what "causes" homosexuality. This is strictly my interpretation and is just an educated guess based on some of my work in genetic statistics.

To start, I do not believe that homosexuality is a binary state. Many of us are attracted to members of the opposite sex and of the same sex. Attraction can be measured on a continuum ranging from heavily preferring the opposite sex to heavily preferring the same sex. Anything in between is possible.

In the early start of genetic research, we often spent a lot of effort trying to find a single gene that related to heart disease, diabetes, autism, or any other condition. It was thought that if we could identify that magic gene, we could quickly identify the people who would develop these conditions. It turns out, however, that whenever we identify these magic genes, they are incredibly difficult to replicate and validate. In other words, it's rare that you find corroborating studies matching the same genes to the same conditions. And when you do, the associations are usually pretty small.

What we've come to learn is that it's usually a large sequence of genes, or a combination of genes that makes us susceptible to various conditions. So if we identify a set of 20 genes that are linked with heart disease, we can tell people how susceptible they are to heart disease by counting the number of genes they carry from that subset. (As a side note, this complexity of the DNA structure is an ingenious design. If it takes a long string of genetic markers to create high susceptibility to a condition, it is much less likely that people will develop their susceptibility than if only one gene is needed)

I tend to view same sex attraction in the same light. I believe that there is a subset of genes that determine how susceptible you are to same sex attraction. The more of those genes you have, the stronger your same sex attraction will be. The only evidence I have to support this description is that only 3% of the population identify themselves as homosexual. In other words, homosexuality is rare, which is an implication that nature is working against it.

Now, given this interpretation, it seems likely that in the resurrection, some part of this would be changed so as to make your resurrected form consistent with the eternal principles outlined in the Family Proclamation.

I understand that is an upsetting idea for someone who is strongly attracted to the same gender and has been all his life. I can't offer any comforting words on that point. I can only hope that despite all of the fear and uncertainty that creates in mortality, we will be able to understand in the eternities.

[MarginOfError]

How can I vest my whole life on the assumption that everything the LDS church tells me is truth? As I've thought more about various LDS doctrines, the more they've seemed bogus to me. Like the plan of salvation for example, pre-plan all of us are in the presence of the father, post-plan one third of us are destined to hell and the rest are very unlikely to reobtain living with the father. It seems the plan falls short of its intent, our progression(EDIT: I said this in my previous post).

Also, concerning the devil, why would lucifer knowingly propagate the plan of salvation? By tempting adam and eve he in effect set it in motion, and by himself and his angels providing mankind with adversity and temptation they provide much of the basis for our earthly existance. Why would a being as supposedly cunning as the devil play right into gods hand like this?

You assume that God never intended to give Adam and Eve the fruit. Some interpretations of the story in the Garden are that God was only in the beginning phase of teaching Adam and Eve about choice and accountability. Satan, however, wanted to be God, and so he tries to play God any chance he can get. Satan does very little on our account. Most of what he does is to satisfy is own ego.

Also, shouldn't there be extensive archaeological evidence of the civilizations and peoples talked about in the book of mormon? Why haven't I heard about the ancient nephites or lamanites at any point during my secular education?

This is a question that might be better investigated over at FAIR. Be careful though, some of their stuff is complete garbage.

Also how is the vast amount of physical evidence supporting evolution and suggesting recent human ancestors explained? And the dating methods that suggest humanity is far older than purported in the bible? Following from that why would god only interact with humanity for the past 5000 to 6000 years of its history?

We're still trying to understand some of these things. Do a search for evolution on these boards and you'll pull up some interesting (and heated) discussions. Suffice it to say, not everyone in the LDS church discounts evolution and scientific evidence.

I'm beginning to believe that the notion that we're literal offspring of the ruler of the universe to just be a relic of human arrogance, not unlike the old beliefs that Earth is the centre of the universe and that the sun revolves around the earth. When I try to consider how vast the universe is I'm awe-struck. Watch this video on the scale of our planet compared to our galaxy, and consider that we know of hundreds of billions of other galaxies in the visible universe alone.

YouTube - The universe - How big are you?

For me it only amplifies the perception that we're far less significant in creation than we make ourselves out to be.(If these questions have been brought up before apologies, and apologies if anyone is offended by the nature of the questions, I am questioning the very foundation of the churches religious doctrine).

"And it came to pass that Moses looked, and beheld the world upon which he was created; and Moses beheld the world and the ends thereof, and all the children of men which are, and which were created; of the same he greatly marveled and wondered.

"And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth.

"And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed" (Moses 1:8 -10).

So what's you've just said isn't a completely new idea. But the vastness of the universe doesn't discount the idea that despite all of His many creations, we aren't the ones that have the most ability to pull on His heartstrings. I know...more arrogance, but comforting arrogance.

The only reason I don't completely turn my back on the church is out of fear. The church is quite clear on what it considers sexual morality and what is an acceptable relationship in the eyes of god, sexual immorality is a sin next to murder. For the past decade I've suffered from depression, I've felt shame, guilt, and internal conflict. I don't understand what it is to have a personal relationship with Christ or how that would make me feel better. I'm supposed to feel good that he suffered excruciatingly and had his life cut short for our benefit? All that makes me feel is ashamed and guilty, on top of the shame and guilt I've already felt over my sexuality. I can only conclude being born into the church has not been a positive influence on my life. I got baptized at the age of 8, something I now regret. I think the age of baptism should be increased, you're entering into a covenant with God, at the age of 8 you're not sufficiently mature to be making that sort of decision. So if I reject the atonement I'll suffer for 1000 years in outer darkness before being granted a place in the Telestial kingdom? Given the era in which I've lived, and what I've gone through in life so far, that doesn't seem just to me.

You shouldn't feel ashamed for your sexuality. Like our emotions, we don't really control who we are attracted to. It just happens. What we do control is how we act on those emotions and attractions.

This is the first time I've ever outwardly said anything about same-gender-attraction, so I'm sorry if I come off on the wrong foot.

To me, struggles with homosexual tendancies are really no different than struggles with heterosexual tendancies. Both are constituted to "the natural man" and need to be mastered. There are many in the world who struggle with pornography, masterbation, and sexual-transgression. These are all linked. It is an attack on chastity and virtue. Any attraction you feel for another, man or woman, should not be acted on outside the bounds of marriage. No matter how much you love said person, there should be no physical intimacy, no sexual exploration of any kind, without the binding covenant of marriage.

Being gay does not make you abnormal. You face the same struggle with lust, desire, and longing as anyone else. Everyone, no matter their orientation, needs to master these feelings or find your feelings mastering you.

This is doctrinally correct, but offers very little comfort. In the Church, we offer those attracted to the same sex the opportunity to be celibate throughout their mortal existence. I'll tell you right now, the thought of never having sex again is enough to make me depressed. Yet, we ask those who identify as homosexual to never experience something that many people describe as the ultimate expression of love. That's a awful lot to ask. It certainly can't be compared to asking Naaman to wash in the Jordan river...this is indeed a great thing. And because it's such a great thing, I believe that those who accomplish it will be greatly rewarded in eternity.

I have BOLD type the areas of your comment I wish to reply to.

First off, you are given the SAME oportunity for eternal marriage as your brothers. Neither of them is able to have same gender relationships-same as you are not. They are living the will of Heavenly Father and you are not. This sounds like a whispered lie into your ear by the Advisary. (Look what they can have and you can not. You're denied that joy) Well, that simply is not true. Follow the Lord's will and you will also find joy.

Secondly, who told you that your sexuality is "unchangable?" Weakness is not who we are. Do you think a blind man was unable to see in the premortal world? Do you think a Leper's skin rotted off in Heaven? Of course not. These are challenges and hardships of this world that are meant to be overcome and sometimes endured for a long time. Your same sex attraction is no different. Just as some blindness can be cured and desease eradicated so too can your sexuality be altered.

The Lord has made His will clear, and you have been given the oportunity to show your love and desire to obey Him by facing this very difficult trial of same sex attraction. The advisary would have you think you're gross, or evil and without hope and that the Plan is fouled up and unfair to those like yourself. Well Satan was a liar from the beginning! With God all things are possible.

You have budding seeds of desire to live the gospel according to the Lord's will. Its evident in your words. Do not be fooled by clever misdirection from the other side. Embrace what you know is true and right. Ask the Lord for help. Do not be like me friend. Do not turn your back on the Lord.

These comments go on the assumption that sexuality is easily controlled. There as just as much evidence that sexuality is a choice as there is that it isn't a choice. It does little to inspire confidence and desire to live the Gospel, which is a steep price to pay for something that may or may not be true.

You may never be attracted to the opposite sex. You may never be able to marry in the temple and bring children into the world under God's plan. I can comprehend that hearing these words is painful and frustrating, but I'm afraid I can't comprehend the depth of that pain. I am sorry that there are so many of us that are so flippant about this situation.

The path to exaltation laid before you is one that will see more frustration and sorrow that most of us "straight" people will feel. The only comforting words that I can offer is that it will be worth it. I firmly believe in the truth of the scriptures, that we will be saved after all we can do. If we are to believe that we receive a greater reward for enduring greater trials, then you should be rewarded with the largest estate in the heavens.

You can have a personal relationship with the Savior even if you're gay. I assure you, he doesn't care who you are attracted to or what your impulsive desires are so long as you do your very best to live His commandments. Those, I'm afraid, are the most comforting words that I can offer.

[marts1]

True. But it is not a guarantee in any way, shape or form. God does work miracles for His children, no denying that, but sometimes the miracles take funny shapes. For some people -- none of whom I have ever spoken to personally -- He might work the miracle of completely ridding them of same-sex attraction. For some people, such as myself, He works the smaller, quieter miracle of helping them find one person they can be blissfully happy to marry, even if they can't even imagine being with anyone else of the opposite sex. For some people with same-sex attraction, just as for some who are straight but never find a partner, the miracle is giving them the strength to get through life without a spouse.

I think it's very clear in our doctrine that SSA is a challenge, not a sin. And a lot of times, maybe even most times, the challenge is here to stay for this life. It's dangerous at best to insist otherwise.

HappyGuy, I wish you all the best. I know what a dark place you're in right now. My advice to you would be to, first, pray for comfort and the Spirit's guidance. Then go to the scriptures and study everything you can find about the Plan of Salvation, the laws of justice and mercy, our eternal destinies, eternal marriage, and why we need to grow in faith and righteousness to reach exaltation. Try to see how it all fits together. Draw diagrams and charts if you have to. Then pray some more. If you truly do want to understand it, it will come together for you. If you don't want to understand it and you go in looking for reasons to declare it bogus, you probably won't. But understanding the Plan is absolutely vital for a true testimony, especially for those of us who struggle with SSA, so I hope you can find the sincere desire to understand why God set it up the way He did, and that you can begin to see how every facet of it is a reflection of God's absolute love and mercy towards His children. You won't find that understanding from talking to us, from looking at websites about the Church, from Sunday School or from Sacrament meeting talks -- you'll find it through scripture study and prayer, and asking the Spirit to be with you at all times.[/QUOTE]

The last sentence here is your best advice...I also do not accept that one person will find it harder to live the gospel then another. This would make God a respecter of persons which He is not.

[rameumptom]

The reality is, all of us are born with innate weaknesses. Some are born with sexual attractions, others with addictive personalities, others with anger issues.

Each and every one of these can be managed. Ether 12 tells us that God gives us weaknesses so that we may learn to be humble. That is the key. If we are not humble, we seek ways around God's will, or to just defy it. Is it easy? No. It wasn't meant to be easy. But through faith in God and enough humility, it can be managed. And we can have a healthy and wonderful life without indulging in our weaknesees.

I know a few SSA people who have still entered into temple marriages and made them very successful and happy. It isn't an either/or issue. It is a matter of making choices for ourselves, to act and not be acted upon (2 Ne 2). I know of few people that do not enjoy relating with people of the opposite sex. Take that enjoyment and turn it into a healthy relationship under God's plan. Don't focus on the sexual issue, but on the whole person issue, and on the spirit of the person you are with.

If we are humble, we will willingly submit to God. If it means remaining single and celibate through this life, then good for you for doing it. If it means entering into a temple marriage, knowing you have a weakness that will be with you through this life, then good for you. I know many people with weaknesses who still marry in the temple, and live very good lives, because they seek God's will first.

It is when we become self-focused and place ourselves in the middle of the universe through pride that we end up over-focusing on our weaknesses. I know all about this, because I work every work day with prisoners who have primarily spent their lives selfishly focused on themselves.

The issue isn't one of what is fair. The issue isn't one of civil rights. It is all about whether we choose to be valiant in our testimonies of God. Suck it up. Take up our crosses. Humble ourselves before God, and seek to do HIS will.

[Jamie123]

I'm not sure where I read this, but I've read of a time when all students at BYU who felt "same gender attraction" were ordered to leave (even if they were completely celibate) and were denied credit for the courses they had completed unless they submitted to electric shock therapy.

Is there any truth in this, or is it more likely an anti-Mormon slur?

[Wisc]

I'm not sure where I read this, but I've read of a time when all students at BYU who felt "same gender attraction" were ordered to leave (even if they were completely celibate) and were denied credit for the courses they had completed unless they submitted to electric shock therapy.

Is there any truth in this, or is it more likely an anti-Mormon slur?

What do you think?

[Just_A_Guy]

You make it sound as if my future is bleak spiritually. How can you be sure the Godhead would even want me to be free of this trial in mortality, it might be serving some grander purpose for me??

Your spiritual future is what you make it. If you refuse to even try to allow God change you--which was the vibe I was getting from your previous post--then you won't change. It's that simple.

If I misread you, then I apologize.

[Wisc]

I find this insistence that sexuality is changeable baffling. Apply the notion to yourself and you'll probably realize how ridiculous it is. You compare my sexuality to a curable disease? Call me proud, but I find that a little demeaning. Likewise with your assertion that I'm less righteous than my brothers. You said you turned your back on the lord?? EDIT: And I'm not given the same opportunity as my brothers, they can marry unopposed in mortality, and I have to hold my breath until the next life.

The fact that you are here, at an LDS website seeking advice and possible answers is a very large indicator that your sexuality is in fact changable. You are in fact toying with the idea that you could possibly change. Why else would you be here? And I can and have applied this notion to myself. My sexual attraction has always been towards females but what types of females has changed several times. What I used to find really attractive isnt as much as what I find attractive now. And it will likely change again. I bore easily.

As for same sex attraction; we ALL possess that. No guy here can say they have never admired the physical features of another man. And every woman will admit they have a friend or saw another woman that they felt was the most gorgeous woman they have laid eyes on. The difference is not following that attraction into desire or lust.

Bottom line though. Either you believe in God or you do not. And if you do He has made his position clear. "Chose ye this day whom ye will serve"

If you have no desire to change yet you feel like you need our acceptance then either you're needy and are the kind of person that wants everyone to like you or... you really do sense that there is a right and wrong to your situation.

There's really no way around that. None of us are posting on a Swingers website trying to validate a position of hetrosexual monogamy within the bonds of legal marriage.

And reference your "Edit"--- Your brothers can not marry anyone they want unapposed. For instance, if they chose to try to marry me, there would be some major oppositon! HAHA :) But you're smart you realize that what you're saying is silly. Its like saying its unfair that Tap dancers can express the dance with every part of their body while Irish Folk dancers must keep their arms to their sides stiffly and only dance from the waist down. ITS NOT THE SAME DANCE. Adam was not allowed to marry Steve and remain acceptable to the Lord and neitehr are you... or me... or your brothers.

Another possible example is Why can cops carry guns around openly and the rest of us can not? Because the cops have submitted to and achieved sertain requirements to do so. And they have the sanction of the Governing authority behind them. You say you want the kind of life your brothers have? Well, then you must do what you have seen them do. They have submitted to the will of the Lord and have done what is required of them also. And within that they have the backing of His authority to validate their relationships. The Law says cops can carry guns. The Lord says men may only marry women.

You do not have to accept this truth but do not expect to be carrying a gun around town or marrying a man without certain social consiquences. The only way you can change this reality is to change who is in charge and whos decision is final. And I think most of us here agree that God is difficult at the very least to dethrown. :)

Edited March 25, 2010 by Wisc

[hordak]

I'm not sure where I read this, but I've read of a time when all students at BYU who felt "same gender attraction" were ordered to leave (even if they were completely celibate) and were denied credit for the courses they had completed unless they submitted to electric shock therapy.

Is there any truth in this, or is it more likely an anti-Mormon slur?

Yes BYU used aversion therapy in the 70s via shock treatment on homosexuals.

http://connellodonovan.com/images/mcbrideabstract.jpg

Whether or not people were forced into it i don't know but i imagine there would be pressure to "get cured" if one came out.

of course

Regular Psychiatrist were treating it the same way at the time

[Jamie123]

What do you think?

I don't know. I can't find the source for this actual statement, but from what I've read it looks as though BYU scientists did experiment with electric aversion therapy in the 1970's, even if the Church now accepts this was misguided.

Also it would be stupid to assume that everything bad or (if you'll excuse the pun) shocking reported about LDS members must be an anti-Mormon lie. After all, the Mountain Meadows Massacre really happened and was ordered by high-ranking Mormons, even if their actions are now universally condemned.

[sorry Hordak - you posted while I was writing the above.]

Edited March 25, 2010 by Jamie123
Posted after Hordak answered question.

[Guest]

This poor me, it's not fair, everybody has it why can't i, i want it so i must have it, attitude is really getting old. I just had a tiff with my son - he says, "I want that video game!" and I say, "and I want a million dollars!". Sorry folks, we just can't have everything we want. Can't happen. Not even if you're Paris Hilton.

Hey, you're gay. I get that. Good luck to you. I'd love to help but you don't want it. What you really want is for me to say okay, you can marry Steve and it will be alright with God. Sorry, I can't do that. Anything else, I'll try to help you with... that's including reading all your rants and raves on this forum. Have at it, get it out of your system. But you're not gonna change doctrine here.

[marts1]

I don't know. I can't find the source for this actual statement, but from what I've read it looks as though BYU scientists did experiment with electric aversion therapy in the 1970's, even if the Church now accepts this was misguided.

Also it would be stupid to assume that everything bad or (if you'll excuse the pun) shocking reported about LDS members must be an anti-Mormon lie. After all, the Mountain Meadows Massacre really happened and was ordered by high-ranking Mormons, even if their actions are now universally condemned.

[sorry Hordak - you posted while I was writing the above.]

How high ranking are you talking about?

[Guest mysticmorini]

How high ranking are you talking about?

people forget that this was in the middle of the utah war and atrocities happen in war. look at the civil war. im not saying what happened was right but i think it get way over played.

[marts1]

From what I've read it was only local leaders involved.

[Moksha]

4. When I'm granted a perfected body when I'm resurrected does that partly mean I'll no longer be same sex attracted or does that depend on my level of righteousness in mortality?

Either that or your perfected body will enable designer clothing to look simply marvelous on you.

[Traveler]

I find this insistence that sexuality is changeable baffling. Apply the notion to yourself and you'll probably realize how ridiculous it is. You compare my sexuality to a curable disease? Call me proud, but I find that a little demeaning. Likewise with your assertion that I'm less righteous than my brothers. You said you turned your back on the lord?? EDIT: And I'm not given the same opportunity as my brothers, they can marry unopposed in mortality, and I have to hold my breath until the next life.

Everyone that comes to live a mortal life on earth must deal with the troubles and risks brought on by the fall of mankind. We are told in scriptures that the natural man is an enemy of G-d. This means that if we follow our natural urges in this life we will be unfit to live with G-d in eternities.

The first step towards bondage, captivity and to evil is the step towards satisfying self and the desires, wants, passions, needs and orientations of self. Convincing one’s self that it is okay to indulge in self satisfying desires is the first choice towards habits on a road that leads to no where else but acquired habitual behaviors. The scriptures warn us that in the beginning Satan will lead us around with a cord of flax. A thread that anyone could easily break but that as we continue Satan will eventually bind us with chains that we cannot break.

The first step towards freedom, liberty and righteousness is the step of self denial through discipline. This is also known as the sacrifice of self; where we deny our personal wants and natural urges for the greater benefit of the good of all. Every person must put off the natural man and become a saint of G-d to become free. Jesus spoke this clearly when he said, “If you continue in my word then are you my disciples indeed and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.”

Freedom is not the easy way or popular road. Most come to think freedom is doing whatever you want whenever you want – that is the great lie and is the opened door to everlasting prison. If evil was not appealing and desirable at first brush no one would ever even consider it. If evil was easy to walk away from and could be accomplished without divine assistance no one would need a savior and redeemer.

As to overcoming same sex orientations, I know it can be done and have witnessed it but I also know it is difficult and I am aware that many that try do not succeed or perhaps I should say have not succeeded yet.

The Traveler

[LocalFarms]

I don't have too much to add that hasn't been said already. I do, however, want to add my testimony as someone who also struggles with ssa. I want to tell you not to apply labels to yourself, labels limit. I'm not gay because I don't sleep with men. I'm celibate because I don't sleep with anyone. If I find a wife someday who I can love and will love me in return I suppose I will be srtaight but like I said labels limit. Also want to adress the sexual release issue. Having sex does not relieve sexual tension it only feeds it. The way to be free from those desire is to not feed them but let them starve.