LDS Plan

[webbwayne]

With the Right vs Left issues starting to heat up in this country, one question has been on my mind: Does the church have a plan if all hell were to break loose? Does anyone know if the church has a position on health care?

I am a lower class individual here in Utah, born and raised, and the images and articles I read online/newspapers/magazines/books and watch on TV are becoming disturbing. We hate the healthcare reform; we don't hate the health care reform; people are dying because they ar uninsured; people are taking care of themselves and that's good enough.

I am disturbed that I live in a state that is now trying to stop all health care reform in its tracks. How can we live in a Nation blessed by god and yet when someone falls ill we say this, 'It's all about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.' It was my fault I got cancer. It was my fault my son became ill with the flu. It's our fault that tumors grow. It's our fault.

I can't stand to live in a state and nation that is revolved around such hypocrisy. How can we be a state founded by an LDS Socialism to help and to take care of your fellow man and yet when the government NOW steps in and tries to help we scoff and begin to feel panicked. We want none of this! It's sad to say but in this country we can neither be born or die with out paying a large amount of money. Nothing is free. Even things we can't control come with a price tag.

I for one would love to go back to an original order. Back when this great religion was just starting out where people used the resources they lived by for the greater good of the people. THAT is socialism! That is socialism with a LDS mindset.

I am posting because I am concerned for my state and my country. I see the writing on the wall and it isn't pleasant. I want to start a new group, political, that takes the best of our LDS Socialist mindset and creates a better state than the others. I want my children's children to look back and say they changed things. They knew that education, social services, health care, and others ARE RIGHTS AMONG MEN that shall NOT be denied through greed or CAPITALISM. I want to create a better world here in Utah and set the example for all to follow. I want to HELP.

Now I know I may get a lot of people against this but I hope you look at this with an open heart. I want you to look back and remember why the church is one of the best in the world because we care. I would also like to mention that I am NOT an LDS member nor have I ever been but I have been touched by the history and the accomplishments of the church and am very proud to call them my brethren.

Thanks!

[john doe]

Hmmm, I've never heard anyone in General Conference endorse Socialism. Can you show me where they have singled it out by name and endorsed it? Perhaps you are confusing Consecration with Socialism?

Hint: Think voluntary charity vs. taking by force of law and threat of imprisonment.

[Traveler]

With the Right vs Left issues starting to heat up in this country, one question has been on my mind: Does the church have a plan if all hell were to break loose? Does anyone know if the church has a position on health care?

I am a lower class individual here in Utah, born and raised, and the images and articles I read online/newspapers/magazines/books and watch on TV are becoming disturbing. We hate the healthcare reform; we don't hate the health care reform; people are dying because they ar uninsured; people are taking care of themselves and that's good enough.

I am disturbed that I live in a state that is now trying to stop all health care reform in its tracks. How can we live in a Nation blessed by god and yet when someone falls ill we say this, 'It's all about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.' It was my fault I got cancer. It was my fault my son became ill with the flu. It's our fault that tumors grow. It's our fault.

I can't stand to live in a state and nation that is revolved around such hypocrisy. How can we be a state founded by an LDS Socialism to help and to take care of your fellow man and yet when the government NOW steps in and tries to help we scoff and begin to feel panicked. We want none of this! It's sad to say but in this country we can neither be born or die with out paying a large amount of money. Nothing is free. Even things we can't control come with a price tag.

I for one would love to go back to an original order. Back when this great religion was just starting out where people used the resources they lived by for the greater good of the people. THAT is socialism! That is socialism with a LDS mindset.

I am posting because I am concerned for my state and my country. I see the writing on the wall and it isn't pleasant. I want to start a new group, political, that takes the best of our LDS Socialist mindset and creates a better state than the others. I want my children's children to look back and say they changed things. They knew that education, social services, health care, and others ARE RIGHTS AMONG MEN that shall NOT be denied through greed or CAPITALISM. I want to create a better world here in Utah and set the example for all to follow. I want to HELP.

Now I know I may get a lot of people against this but I hope you look at this with an open heart. I want you to look back and remember why the church is one of the best in the world because we care. I would also like to mention that I am NOT an LDS member nor have I ever been but I have been touched by the history and the accomplishments of the church and am very proud to call them my brethren.

Thanks!

There are so many half truths that it is impossible to really understand what is truth. Let me try to summarize some things for you.

1. It is not about health care – it is about how to pay for health care. Some think that there is a class of individuals that should not contribute any money to their health care. Some think health care is a liberty and right that must be given by the government. This idea is in conflict with the idea that any individual should have to contribute any money to their own health care.

2. Some think that by buying insurance they are entitled to health care. The reality is that by design insurance is for catastrophic events that cannot be budgeted into normal living expense. Thus the question is not about insurance but in prepaid health care plans. But some health situations are so risky that a pre-paid plan is unreasonable. Who then is responsible? My personal attitude is – if you are not willing to commit any (percentage) of your earnings to your own health – why should I commit any of mine. I can help and I am willing to help – but help does not mean that I become more responsible than the person asking for my help.

3. Health care is already screwed up and nothing the government is doing will contribute anything to better health. For example the two greatest health problems in the USA are overweight and lack of exercise. The only thing our health care offers is surgery and drugs. If a doctor tries to cure the real problem our system will sue the doctor. Which help to understand the next point.

4. The two most important reasons for the rise in health care costs are first: Malpractice insurance costs. And Second: increasing numbers of individuals receiving health care but not paying anything (or paying less than cost). Long before the talk of health care citizens of the USA could go to Mexico for major medical care and pay less than the cost we are now paying for insurance. The clinics in Mexico are staffed with Doctors trained in the USA and that in many cases still practice here. They have gone to Mexico because they can make more there because there is no malpractice costs and all their patients pay for the care. Right now 80% of what you pay for in the USA is for malpractice insurance costs and for other receiving care not paid for.

You may think that the US doctors practicing in Mexico are not as good as doctors here. But from statistics concerning follow up costs associated with the care – the US clinics in Mexico are by far giving better service. I predict that these clinics will become as illegal to US citizens as it is to not wanting to pay for the government mandated health insurance.

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

education, social services, health care, and others ARE RIGHTS AMONG MEN that shall NOT be denied through greed or CAPITALISM

Where'd you hear that? No, education social services, and healthcare are most certainly NOT rights. Rights are granted by God and respected (or trampled on) by man and governments. You'll have to cite chapter and verse where God said "Let there be healthcare".

I mean, its good that you want to help. Socialists tend to be in it to help folks. But you've chosen a pretty lousy way to do it. I mean, taking things via the threat of force from people, and handing it to other people based on the agenda of the whatever current corrupt politician happens to be in office? Count me out.

LM

[webbwayne]

If Christ asked you today why you didn't help your fellow man what would you say? Do you think he would agree with free enterprise when health was involved? When I hear that education, social services, and health care are NOT RIGHTS but luxury, it makes me sick.

I never once said that the anyone at the General Conference said that socialism is a good thing. Why would they? I just feel that we as a group should help one another. Why shouldn't we? It shouldn't be a charitable cause every time someone in your area gets an illness they cannot afford.

I mean quite a bit of LDS members were part of the Socialist Party back in the early 1900's. They knew, just like I want to believe, that every man should be taken care of regardless of social class or ethnic background.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon webbwayne. Welcome to the forums! :)

If Christ asked you today why you didn't help your fellow man what would you say? Do you think he would agree with free enterprise when health was involved? When I hear that education, social services, and health care are NOT RIGHTS but luxury, it makes me sick.

I never once said that the anyone at the General Conference said that socialism is a good thing. Why would they? I just feel that we as a group should help one another. Why shouldn't we? It shouldn't be a charitable cause every time someone in your area gets an illness they cannot afford.

I mean quite a bit of LDS members were part of the Socialist Party back in the early 1900's. They knew, just like I want to believe, that every man should be taken care of regardless of social class or ethnic background.

Here is my dilemma. Your position is comparing apples to oranges. You have the issue of being charitable and then you have the issue of government mandated "charity" (which is really a contradiction in terms and thus it doesn't really exist). So, yes, we should be charitable but that doesn't mean that we should have government mandated health insurance.

One inalienable right is the right to property. Without the inalienable right to property, our other inalienable rights such as right to liberty, to life, and to pursue happiness could not be exercised. A man has no inalienable right to another man's property. It is as simple as that. A government is not justified in taking the property of a person, by force, and then redistributing it to another person. Government mandated welfare (which includes health care coverage) violates our inalienable right to property and is a travesty. It is inconceivable to me that any just person would feel entitled to another's property.

Regards,

Finrock

[hordak]

If Christ asked you today why you didn't help your fellow man what would you say? Do you think he would agree with free enterprise when health was involved? .

I think he would understand

3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him,

5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

[MarginOfError]

If Christ asked you today why you didn't help your fellow man what would you say? Do you think he would agree with free enterprise when health was involved? When I hear that education, social services, and health care are NOT RIGHTS but luxury, it makes me sick.

I never once said that the anyone at the General Conference said that socialism is a good thing. Why would they? I just feel that we as a group should help one another. Why shouldn't we? It shouldn't be a charitable cause every time someone in your area gets an illness they cannot afford.

I mean quite a bit of LDS members were part of the Socialist Party back in the early 1900's. They knew, just like I want to believe, that every man should be taken care of regardless of social class or ethnic background.

I reject a lot of the claims made by conservatives against health care reform. I think there is a lot of value to some of these social programs. But there are much more complicated issues around health care reform than just "helping people." It should be a system that supports itself. The problem with the current health care legislation is that it isn't reform. It doesn't do anything to change the infrastructure of the health care system (which, by the way, is essential to cutting costs to make a more socialized health care program possible).

And as a liberally minded person, I reject your notion that these things are rights. These are privileges and luxuries. They are privileges and luxuries that we would love to provide to everyone, but if it isn't provided well, it will have disastrous consequences. It'd be better to do it right than not to do it at all.

And for the record, nationally operated programs are extremely inefficient. If you want to use the Church as a model, it administers welfare at the lowest level possible. That way individuals get exactly the support they need, not something based on an algorithm applied by over worked government staff with little interest in the individual.

So yes, the principles you espouse are good principles, but you leave a lot to be desired in terms of execution.

[Guest]

Webbwayne, if the only way you will contribute to the welfare of others is for a government to DECREE it, then you ARE NOT a true member of the LDS church. Sorry, mate.

[Finrock]

If Christ asked you today why you didn't help your fellow man what would you say?

I also wanted to address this question. It assumes that those who don't subscribe to government mandated health care are people who do not want to help their fellow man. It is wholly fallacious and without merit. Charity can only occur when an agent acts freely and without coercion to help others. If charity is coerced through the force of law then no charity can be performed.

I freely try to live the principles of the gospel and I freely choose to be charitable not because I fear God or because I fear the consequences but because I love God and want to be his disciple.

Regards,

Finrock

[vestig8or]

Great thread. I get really worried when libertarian/conservative-minded people are dismissed as intolerant or "haters." It's not that I want people to suffer, it's just that when we talk about "rights" I seldom hear about whose obligation it is to pay for those rights. The government? The government does not create wealth; the government source of funding is the taxpayer. Social Security and Medicare are already in big trouble, and now we are adding Health Care? What's next? No one should have to buy their own food? Buy their own house or vehicle?

In spite of the liberal source and the way he pokes fun of conservatives at the beginning, this is a great lecture on the difference between liberals and conservatives. Conservatives seem to come out on top. Jonathan Haidt on the moral roots of liberals and conservatives

[Wingnut]

Webbwayne, if the only way you will contribute to the welfare of others is for a government to DECREE it, then you ARE NOT a true member of the LDS church. Sorry, mate.

From the OP:

I would also like to mention that I am NOT an LDS member nor have I ever been but I have been touched by the history and the accomplishments of the church and am very proud to call them my brethren.

[Moksha]

And as a liberally minded person, I reject your notion that these things are rights. These are privileges and luxuries. They are privileges and luxuries that we would love to provide to everyone, but if it isn't provided well, it will have disastrous consequences. It'd be better to do it right than not to do it at all.

Doing things right is very important. The Japanese are able to provide good care for all by controlling all aspects of the health care process. By doing so, the citizens get what they need and it costs less than our current non-system.

The tricky issue is how to assuage all the vested interest groups in order to do it right.

[Snow]

A little honesty in your post would be helpful.

I am disturbed that I live in a state that is now trying to stop all health care reform in its tracks.

Bogus argument. Your state may be opposed to the current spate of liberal Democratic Party Healthcare reform but that's much different than you are claiming.

How can we live in a Nation blessed by god and yet when someone falls ill we say this, 'It's all about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.' It was my fault I got cancer. It was my fault my son became ill with the flu. It's our fault that tumors grow. It's our fault.

Egads - could you lay it on any thicker. The issue is not about who is to blame for getting ill. What's at issue is that the individual, by tradition in this county, is responsible for getting themselves educated, productively employing themselves and thus insuring themselves so when they or their family fall ill, the've prepared for it.

I can't stand to live in a state and nation that is revolved around such hypocrisy.

Since you haven't even pointed out any hypocrisy, your complaint is hollow.

How can we be a state founded by an LDS Socialism

Factually untrue. Utah was and is a capitalistic economic state. There was no United Order in Utah. The LDS Church has a welfare program that is founded on principles of voluntary participation and self-reliance.

[Palerider]

Doing things right is very important. The Japanese are able to provide good care for all by controlling all aspects of the health care process. By doing so, the citizens get what they need and it costs less than our current non-system.

The tricky issue is how to assuage all the vested interest groups in order to do it right.

You may want to do some reading on your perfect system....

Health care system in Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[bytor2112]

I reject a lot of the claims made by conservatives against health care reform. I think there is a lot of value to some of these social programs. But there are much more complicated issues around health care reform than just "helping people." It should be a system that supports itself. The problem with the current health care legislation is that it isn't reform. It doesn't do anything to change the infrastructure of the health care system (which, by the way, is essential to cutting costs to make a more socialized health care program possible).

And as a liberally minded person, I reject your notion that these things are rights. These are privileges and luxuries. They are privileges and luxuries that we would love to provide to everyone, but if it isn't provided well, it will have disastrous consequences. It'd be better to do it right than not to do it at all.

And for the record, nationally operated programs are extremely inefficient. If you want to use the Church as a model, it administers welfare at the lowest level possible. That way individuals get exactly the support they need, not something based on an algorithm applied by over worked government staff with little interest in the individual.

So yes, the principles you espouse are good principles, but you leave a lot to be desired in terms of execution.

Amen Brother!!

[bytor2112]

Webb Wayne is 23 years old and is already whining like a defeated spineless victim. American ingenuity and sweat equity has been replaced by victim and entitlement mentality.

[havejoy]

"If Christ asked you today why you didn't help your fellow man what would you say?"

This is a much deeper question than it first seems to be. When I was RS president I started out wanting to answer all pleas for help with a resounding "Yes". I quickly learned that one of the worse things you can do to someone is to give them something for nothing. They will keep coming back for more and want every desire they have met by you and will take up all of your time and then scream for more. It makes them weaker people.

If you want more out of life than what you already have, then work for it if you are able. Go to college, work two or more jobs for a while. Hard times are something humans need to go through. They make us rely on God for comfort and strength and we gain our own strength and knowledge by working our way through them.

[mnn727]

Its hard being a democrat in this Church. I just shake my head when any political topic comes up.

Funny thing is I was a staunch republican until I joined the Church and learned more of Christ.

[Guest]

Its hard being a democrat in this Church. I just shake my head when any political topic comes up.

Funny thing is I was a staunch republican until I joined the Church and learned more of Christ.

Being a strong follower of Christ doesn't have any bearing on what political party you SHOULD belong to. I wish people would stop with this nonsense.

[mnn727]

When I was RS president I started out wanting to answer all pleas for help with a resounding "Yes". I quickly learned that one of the worse things you can do to someone is to give them something for nothing. They will keep coming back for more and want every desire they have met by you and will take up all of your time and then scream for more. It makes them weaker people.

.

I think you need to learn more of the Churches welfare system, its not a giveaway, people are supposed to work for what is given, this is in the form of public service (either church related or elsewhere) While there are guidelines as to what fast offerings can be used for, you also are not to be "money police".

The Church Handbook of Instructions is pretty specific and every Stake that I have been in has welfare training also.

[mnn727]

Being a strong follower of Christ doesn't have any bearing on what political party you SHOULD belong to. I wish people would stop with this nonsense.

Which party? No

What platform issues? YES!

[NeuroTypical]

If Christ asked you today why you didn't help your fellow man what would you say?

I don't think he'd be bamboozled by your twisted and unrighteous opinion of me over my track record of helping my fellow man. But if he was, I'd point out all the times I've helped my fellow man, and ask him to restate his question.

When I hear that education, social services, and health care are NOT RIGHTS but luxury, it makes me sick.

I know how you feel. When I was 8 years old, I watched a show on TV about how the mean people would go club the baby seals. I was devistated. I must have cried for days - the dead baby seals just looked so SAD! One night, I was so shocked and horrified that I was a member of a race that could do such horrible things, that I honestly thought I was going to die of shame, that my heart would actually stop beating. I scribbled out a will in purple crayon. I remember - it said "I hearby beqweath all my worldy goods to the prevention of crewelty to animals."

Anyway, I didn't die that night. As years passed, I matured. I learned about some harsh realities of life, and about man's stewardship, and I grew to the point where I could accept reality.

I recommend the same journey for you. If reality makes you sick, you need to evaluate why you believe what you believe, and grow up a little.

I just feel that we as a group should help one another.

No, that's not what you "just feel". You "just feel" that there's only one way to help one another - through socialist means. And you "just feel" that people who don't see it your way are wrong. I reject both.

A wise man once mentioned that if you find yourself at odds with millions of people from different walks of life, educational backgrounds, income levels, etc - you would do well to carefully examine why you believe what you believe, instead of just blanket writing them all off as wrong or worse.

Webwayne, you ain't as right as you think you are.

LM

[Guest]

Which party? No

What platform issues? YES!

Not necessarily.

Okay, let's dive into one of the most controversial ones:

Abortion -

diametrically opposed platform issues: Pro-Choice vs. Pro-Life

So, you're saying, if you are a strong follower of Christ you have to be Pro-Choice? Wrong.

Or, you're saying, if you are a strong follower of Christ you have to be Pro-Life?

Still wrong.

Another one:

Healthcare

diametrically opposed platform issues: Single-payer (government being the payer) vs. Privately funded

So, you're saying, if you are a strong follower of Christ you have to be single-payer supporter? Wrong.

The opposite is just as wrong.

You can list anything else here... smoking, drugs, gun ownership, gay rights, etc. etc. etc.

[vestig8or]

Not necessarily.

Okay, let's dive into one of the most controversial ones:

Abortion -

diametrically opposed platform issues: Pro-Choice vs. Pro-Life

So, you're saying, if you are a strong follower of Christ you have to be Pro-Choice? Wrong.

Or, you're saying, if you are a strong follower of Christ you have to be Pro-Life?

Still wrong.

Another one:

Healthcare

diametrically opposed platform issues: Single-payer (government being the payer) vs. Privately funded

So, you're saying, if you are a strong follower of Christ you have to be single-payer supporter? Wrong.

The opposite is just as wrong.

You can list anything else here... smoking, drugs, gun ownership, gay rights, etc. etc. etc.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you suggesting that all morals are relative and Christ doesn't care what we decide?