Understanding the Apostasy

[pooter1]

Didn't Jesus's apostles keep passing the priesthood down to other people.Didn't his Apostles baptise others.Did God tell them to stop doing this?

[NeuroTypical]

Baptizing others doesn't give them the priesthood. Ordaining them to the priesthood is what gives them the priesthood.

Basically, Catholics can explain how church authority continued after the apostles stopped replacing themselves, and Mormons don't buy the explanation. We figure the correct/true/authoritative church of Jesus Christ has apostles and seventies in it, as well as Bishops.

LM

[Guest]

No. God did not ask them to stop. But, with Priesthood blessing comes priesthood keys. For example, there are tons of Milchezedek priesthood bearers in the world. But only a few were given the keys to act as Prophet. Therefore, anybody acting as Prophet without these keys bestowed upon him is acting in apostasy. So, after all the keys were lost a few decades after the death of Peter, the church went into an apostate state.

For example, it is questionable that the popes in the time of Constantine I has the proper authority to lead the church.

Edited April 22, 2010 by anatess

[pooter1]

You have to have a Prophet on earth to have the Keys to the Priesthood then?

[marshac]

You have to have a Prophet on earth to have the Keys to the Priesthood then?

I have some keys, just not all of them. The Prophet holds all of them.

Incidentally, my mechanic says that too many keys on your keychain is bad for your car's ignition...

[prisonchaplain]

For the typical evangelical understanding of the priesthood of all believers, see: Is the priesthood of all believers Biblical?

[Finrock]

Good afternoon angel333. It is a pleasure to meet you and welcome to the forum! :)

Didn't Jesus's apostles keep passing the priesthood down to other people.Didn't his Apostles baptise others.Did God tell them to stop doing this?

I'm gathering from your title that you aren't just looking to have 3 questions about the priesthood and the early apostles answered. So, to clarify, is the implication with your questions that the apostasy did not occur?

But, to answer your questions:

1. Yes, the apostles passed the priesthood down to others.

2. Yes, the apostles baptised others.

3. God did not tell them to stop.

Regards,

Finrock

[Justice]

If you study the time period, much like the early history of the LDS church, there was severe persecution for Christinas to deny Christ and their religion. In a large degree, those that would not were put to death. This is how the majority of the Apostles died.

It is not difficult to see that it would have been very difficult for the APostles to call new members and reorganize the Quorum.

If you cut off the head the body dies.

[Faded]

Didn't Jesus's apostles keep passing the priesthood down to other people.Didn't his Apostles baptize others.Did God tell them to stop doing this?

Where did the pronouncement that there had been an apostasy come from? Well, Joseph Smith says that God the Father and Jesus Christ told his so in person:

Joseph Smith History 1:19

17 When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

It is interesting that these word were used to convey the point. You see, though Joseph Smith was only a boy and never was an educated scholar, he knew the Bible because of his parents and family. And the Lord's answer to the boy's question is largely a direct quote from the Bible, something that the Savior did frequently in his mortal ministry.

Isaiah 29:13

Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

2 Timothy 3:5

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Not only is the pronouncement by God himself, but it points to the past history. When Jesus of Nazareth was sent to the Jews, there were Pharasees, Saducees, Essenes and diverse other Jewish sects and denominations. The Son of God did not pick sides in their religious debates. He flatly denounced all of them. He didn't mince words about telling them they were wrong.

The Son of God likewise answered Joseph Smith's question by denouncing all of the Christian sects of his day.

The Jews murdered the Son of God for this grievous insult -- which was nothing more and nothing less than the truth.

The Christians murdered Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum Smith for the same pronouncement -- not Joseph's own words but the words Jesus Christ the Son of God spoke to him directly. Words that Joseph Smith refused to deny had been spoken to him by the Son of God.

It's just history repeating itself. God establishes his truth and kingdom on earth. Mankind falls away from the truth. A mere continuation of the ordinances did not save the Pharasees and Sadducees from falling away. Why would baptism or any other ordinance provide guaranteed protection from Christianity doing exactly the same thing?

[pooter1]

The reason Im asking this question is because I have to teach my primary class about it and these kids are smart cookies and are FULL of non stop questions so Ive got to be one step ahead of them and make sure I understand what Im talking about.Thanks for all your help.If there are any good ensign articles I would appreciate it.

[Faded]

The reason I'm asking this question is because I have to teach my primary class about it and these kids are smart cookies and are FULL of non stop questions so Ive got to be one step ahead of them and make sure I understand what I'm talking about.Thanks for all your help.If there are any good ensign articles I would appreciate it.

If you confront the question, "Why did it last so long?" (worst case scenario), I can offer my the gospel according to me: Satan managed to destroy things to a certain extent. The Lord used the remnants of his Church and Kingdom to spread the basics of the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to every part of the world, while encountering minimal resistance by Satan. But in the end, the foundational knowledge went to ever corner of the world to prepare the world for the Restoration.

Best source in general: The Great Apostasy -- James E Talmage. Probably too big.

Some Ensign Articles:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Apostasy and Restoration

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “From the Beginningâ€

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Message of the Restoration

[GADBabaganoosh]

Even if some had the Priesthood, some may have not been authorized to pass that down. There is specfic organization of the church with regards to worthiness, and the passing of the priesthood. Also, one can lose his priesthood through wickedness, and well, apostasizing. Perhaps the collapse of the early christian church led to the fact that there may not have been anyone left, or any organization left of Christ's true church to initiate an excommunication. Its hard to say though, I'm just speculating, because the general apostasy was many things, not just one. I could list off many things, but I really don't feel like providing a list. People have probably already provided enough.

[Faded]

The Apostasy gets very interesting. After all the Apostles are gone, what you had left were a bunch of bishops. The belief in Jesus Christ continued to grow of course. A rush to claim successor ship and therefore legitimate rulership over the entire Church

Rome would claim it based up Peter -- but this is extremely shady. They lay claim to him being Bishop of Rome, but he never was. They claim that the fact that he died in Rome invested the authority to the real estate, which makes absolutely no sense at all.

The Bishop of Antioch also claimed the right to ruler-ship based upon Peter. The Bishop of Jerusalem, Constantinople and Alexandria all had their own claims to supremacy.

Ultimately, they were all just ordinary bishops who happened to be in major politically or religiously significant cities. But with the apostles gone and legitimate leadership missing, all five of these laid claim to what they had no legitimate right to claim: Supremacy over all the other bishops.

The conquests of Islam pretty much ended the debate by swallowing the see of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria and eventually Constantinople. Tiny groups of Christians still hold one these other bishops as superior to all others. The Bishop of Rome was blessed with luck in location, so he pretty much takes over the whole thing.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Faded

[Moksha]

At the former FAIR board, poster Kokaipo thought that this claim of loss of the Apostolic Succession was due to the forces many emergent organizations face in distinguishing themselves from the existing order or competition. Claims are put forward of being new and improved, being more effective or even of being the only ones capable of doing what needs to be done. She saw our claim of being the sole possessor of truth to fit that model.

One problem in any claim of apostasy is when and why. Many here have given answers. One problem I see is to claim a date of apostasy prior to the Bible being canonized, as well as the sometimes quoted writings of the early Church Fathers supporting our claim to a plurality of Gods.

[pooter1]

I was thinking about when Mormon was writing about how devestating the world was becoming and he even described things that were happening.Is there anywhere in the Bible where the apostles describe the downfall and could see the beginning of the fall? Thanks for all the help im recieving on this subject.

[Blackmarch]

Didn't Jesus's apostles keep passing the priesthood down to other people.Didn't his Apostles baptise others.Did God tell them to stop doing this?

Only the apostles held all the keys and authority to exercise the priesthood completely. other positions were part of said priesthood, but not all the authority or all the keys come with it. When it is given to an individual, it is transferred by someone who has the authority, and is authorised to do so.

God did not tell them to stop doing this, they were killed faster than they could ordain other apostles. While those still alive at the time who were faithful to the calling and priesthood they were ordained to still had whatever authority and priesthood, the means of continuing it indefinitely was lost.

[Blackmarch]

I was thinking about when Mormon was writing about how devestating the world was becoming and he even described things that were happening.Is there anywhere in the Bible where the apostles describe the downfall and could see the beginning of the fall? Thanks for all the help im recieving on this subject.

Most of the bible after the gospels, are letters sent to various churches by the apostles, to both answer questions the member had, and quite often to reprimand, and correct sinful behavior that was creeping into the church.

Quite a bit actually- A small list of references

I"m trying to find the one where the second coming won't occur until there has been a complete falling away.

[Blackmarch]

You have to have a Prophet on earth to have the Keys to the Priesthood then?

you have to have the apostles, the head of the apostles is what we call a prophet..

So yes.

[candyprpl]

I just taught this in primary last week. I like Howard W. Hunter, The Teachings of Howard W. Hunter, p.191 The Apostasy and the Restoration. I also stressed Ephesians 2:20 and Ephesians 4:11-13

[GADBabaganoosh]

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “The Morning Breaks; the Shadows Fleeâ€

Here is one of the absolute best talks on the Apostasy I have ever heard, called "The Morning Breaks, the Shadows Flee" By Bruce R. McConkie.

[Snow]

Best source in general: The Great Apostasy -- James E Talmage. Probably too big.

It's dated and has some beliefs no longer accepted. A more current and comprehensive treatment can be found in:

Early Christians in Disarray: Contemporary LDS Perspectives on the Christian Apostasy, FARMS, edited by Noel Richards.

If you crave more detail on the hellenization of Christian belief, see Richard Hopskins' How Greek Philosophy Corrupted The Christian Concept of God (Horizon).

A quick and contemporary read can be found in Turning from the TruthL A New Look at the Great Apostasy, by Elder Alexander B. Morrison (Deseret Books).

[Guest mysticmorini]

if you want a modern look at apostasy look at the recent revelations of the Community of Christ, that might be a little advanced for primary children though.

[Snow]

if you want a modern look at apostasy look at the recent revelations of the Community of Christ, that might be a little advanced for primary children though.

ZING! Nice dig. Do you have any insults for the Methodists or Presbyterians today?

[Guest mysticmorini]

ZING! Nice dig. Do you have any insults for the Methodists or Presbyterians today?

First off, it wasn't meant as an insult but Im sure i could come up with a few. there apostasy started long before the RLDS/CofC's and one could argue that with their most recent revelation the RLDS/CofC have slipped further from the truth than the Methodists or Presbyterians.

[Snow]

First off, it wasn't meant as an insult but Im sure i could come up with a few. there apostasy started long before the RLDS/CofC's and one could argue that with their most recent revelation the RLDS/CofC have slipped further from the truth than the Methodists or Presbyterians.

It was an insult. You meant it to demean and devalue the faith. Readers are idiots.