Study shows bad teachers hurt kids' progression

[rameumptom]

Poor quality teachers may prevent children from reaching reading potential, study finds

Can we now tell the Teachers' Unions to shut up, sit down, and let us FIX the schools?

[marshac]

It's easy to say 'fix' the schools, much like during the last election people wanted 'change'- the problem arises when one sits down and decides what it should look like once it's "fixed".

A weekly podcast I listen to- Econ Talk- recently covered the topic of education in an interview with Diane Ravitch (former assistant secretary of education) covering topics such as accountability, testing, school choice, etc. It was really fascinating, and can be listened to here-

Ravitch on Education | EconTalk | Library of Economics and Liberty

[Hemidakota]

I am glad someone stated what was missing in our schools today. :0

At home, my wife is a huge fan of reading books, if time permits her daily tasking. Her example has rubbed off with my children as they are provided an environment to not only read non-fictional books or gospel only topics, but ample time to read fictional books for just pure enjoyment. They even share their observation among themselves on a given book. For me, I cannot even fathom wasting time of anything less than reading non-fictional of theological type literature. I am glad to see someone in our home have this insight. I surely don’t.

To enjoy reading, we need to give them the space to acquire a taste of literature that can excite the mind and give space for one’s imagination. Now, press this statement with all the teachers in my children various schools, maybe an issue.

[NeuroTypical]

Can we now tell the Teachers' Unions to shut up, sit down, and let us FIX the schools?

We can tell them until we're blue in the face, but it won't change anything. A teacher's union, by definition, has the well-being of it's members as their top priority. That means 'quality education for children' is not their top priority. That means when the two are in conflict, they side with the teacher. By definition.

Gentle persuasion and civil reasoning isn't how you handle unions. They must be treated as the enemy and dealt with accordingly.

LM

[Roseslipper]

wake up people the school system has been going down the drain for years. they need to make it harder to get a teachers degree, and teachers need to be tested. and more money needs to go into schools. They need to bring the standards up for teachers and for the students. Lowering the standards is not a good thing.This has been going on for years.

[mightynancy]

This is news?

[rameumptom]

No, but this is evidence of what should be evident. Voltaire stated that "common sense is not that common." We have some great alternative schools springing up in places like Harlem that are increasing scores and increasing the number of poor kids prepared for college, etc. Yet the teachers' unions are seeking to stop these programs. There was a great voucher system for the poorest of the poor in place in Washington DC for a decade, making major inroads in that group. The Democratic Congress dismantled it this year as a nod to the Teachers' Unions.

We can find some great examples of what works in our country. It requires great teachers and a workable format. Both of these are being fought by the powerful Teachers Unions. Personally, I think they are an illegal monopoly, and need to be broken up as we did with Standard Oil and AT&T. America benefited from stopping those monopolies, and we'll benefit from ending the Teachers Union monopoly, as well.

[mnn727]

We needed a Study for that?!?! I had a very poor Algebra 1 teacher in 7th or 8th grade (it was a long time ago) ruined me for higher math as I never learned the basics.

[Traveler]

My experience is that the worst teachers are at the college level. I was most shocked the first day of many classes to encounter a teacher that would brag that they would “weed out” the “unworthy” students that could not cut the high standards that they felt were needed for students at the college level. I had personal discussions with a number of professors that I felt were self appointed tormentors rather than mentors explaining that I was not dropping their class but firing them for their ineptness and poor methods of introducing the class to the material needed to master a subject. Testing on uncovered material was unacceptable to me. I would explain that I did not need them or their class to read the text book and figure out things on my own – the only reason I was willing to pay them for teaching anything is if they were capable of adding real value to the education process. I would also point out that a summary of my complaint would be drafted for the board of trustees.

However, I found that the most positive threat to poor professors was that I belonged to a scholastic fraternity that among other things rated professors. They knew that my letters of complaint would be sent to previous fraternity members and wealthy contributing alumni.

All this aside, the single most important factor in a child’s success in the educational environment is the preparations and attitudes for learning in the home. I was listening to NPR the other day concerning a study of “smart” students that found that the single most important factor is the home environment and how their parents treat the child. With rare exception a child will rise to the encouragements and involvement (not demands) in the home. In connection with this idea I would point out that the single most common denominator of genius is that they are mentored. This factor plays out in sports, music and every discipline considered – someone worked with them to make them great.

So who was your mentor and who are you mentoring?

The Traveler

[Dravin]

My experience is that the worst teachers are at the college level.

Unlike Elementary and High School Teachers who are required to take classes teaching them how to teach (either as part of getting certified or earning their X education degree) college professors are just guys with (for the most part) PhDs who aren't required to learn how to be effective teachers. Add to that unlike primary education teachers they aren't there only to teach but for other aspects of academia (though there are certainly those with a passion for teaching) and so you get those who feel teaching is something that gets in the way of their real job.

[rameumptom]

I have a Master's Degree in Teaching, with an emphasis on History. Let me tell you, the education classes are often over rated. I think every instructor needs one or two classes on how to teach well, but the amount required for Primary and Secondary schooling is ridiculous. Studies show it is more important for the teacher to know and understand the materials than to know the mechanics of teaching.

[Dravin]

I have a Master's Degree in Teaching, with an emphasis on History. Let me tell you, the education classes are often over rated. I think every instructor needs one or two classes on how to teach well, but the amount required for Primary and Secondary schooling is ridiculous. Studies show it is more important for the teacher to know and understand the materials than to know the mechanics of teaching.

To be perfectly honest I'm just going off the info I was given by a High School Teacher turned Professor.

[ADoyle90815]

My mom will be retiring at the end of this school year as a teacher, and from what she's seen, one factor in student achievement is if they have parents that actually care about their child's education, and provide support. If children are given the message that their education is a priority, and that college is expected after high school, they're more likely to do better than those whose parents don't care.

I do think the test to become a teacher is too easy, since any high school student could probably pass it. My brother has a teaching credential, and he said that the state exam was actually easier than the SAT was, and that if someone couldn't pass it, they didn't belong in college to begin with, let alone teaching. He ended up getting a job working in the county and is actually making more money than he would have if he got a teaching job. At least with the county, he has a job since people who got hired around the time he got his credential have been laid off, or are being laid off in June.

[Angelagiftedgirl]

[object Selection]

[Traveler]

Unlike Elementary and High School Teachers who are required to take classes teaching them how to teach (either as part of getting certified or earning their X education degree) college professors are just guys with (for the most part) PhDs who aren't required to learn how to be effective teachers. Add to that unlike primary education teachers they aren't there only to teach but for other aspects of academia (though there are certainly those with a passion for teaching) and so you get those who feel teaching is something that gets in the way of their real job.

As an engineer it was my impression that the professors at college were those that flunked working in real life. They had memorized the theories but are unable to apply them to anything.

The Traveler

[zippy_do46]

I have so tried not saying anything but I just have to. There is no one thing that is the problem. My daughter is a teacher. She is a good teacher. She was nominated 2 times for teacher of the year. She loves teaching. I have seen her work 12 to16 hour days to make up for all the problems that teachers have to deal with. This was not just grading papers.

Tutoring problems, parents, special needs, abuse, what they can say and what they can not say, what they can teach and the constant changes in teaching materials and teaching methods are just a few of the problems.

The other day she had one of her students come to her and tell her that another student has exposed himself to her. Can you imagine what she and the student had to go through? Oh, and my daughter still had to teach.

These studies change a lot of students and teachers alike. The problem is they do not always apply across the country. We are taking the individual out of teaching. Let’s group all the children together and teach them one way. Let’s give them a test and if the students do not pass, let’s blame the teacher.

I could just cry for teachers and all those children that do not learn the way someone’s study says they should.

Teachers do not just teach anymore. They are too; busy doing all those things that every Tom, Dick, and Harry study says that they need to do.

Any misspelled words or run on sentences are mine and mine alone. I had some good teachers but it has been a few years and I do not use the written language much. I just do what all our children do. I use spell check. My checkbook has a problem, too. The dog ate my calculator. Just Kidding :)

[mightynancy]

Zippy is right - there is not one thing that we could collectively fix to make teaching better across the board.

There has got to be a good way to weed out the bad teachers, but I don't know what it is. If it's performance review by administrators, well, you'd have to already have weeded out the bad admins. Test scores alone aren't good indicators; a lot of kids just will be low performers on tests, and such a scheme would drive teachers out of special education and lower-performing schools. It's not just the parents. I'd get behind a way to measure student progress that doesn't depend entirely on high-stakes state tests.

Studies show it is more important for the teacher to know and understand the materials than to know the mechanics of teaching.

Would you please link me to a source on this? It's a frequent topic of conversation and I'd love some backup. On the elementary level, the opposite is my intuitive observation. I my experience, the ability to connect and teach is the rub; elementary material is pretty simple. I do agree that "education" classes are of questionable quality and use.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Zippy is right - there is not one thing that we could collectively fix to make teaching better across the board.

There has got to be a good way to weed out the bad teachers, but I don't know what it is. If it's performance review by administrators, well, you'd have to already have weeded out the bad admins. Test scores alone aren't good indicators; a lot of kids just will be low performers on tests, and such a scheme would drive teachers out of special education and lower-performing schools. It's not just the parents. I'd get behind a way to measure student progress that doesn't depend entirely on high-stakes state tests.

Would you please link me to a source on this? It's a frequent topic of conversation and I'd love some backup. On the elementary level, the opposite is my intuitive observation. I my experience, the ability to connect and teach is the rub; elementary material is pretty simple. I do agree that "education" classes are of questionable quality and use.

I agree wholeheartedly that test scores don't reflect the ability of the teacher. I teach for a living, but at post-secondary level. There are two variables (at least) -- one is the teacher, the other is the motivation and ability of the student. Often, I would see good students perform poorly on tests and I would ask why. They would cite emergencies, lack of effort on their part, disorganization in forgetting when the test was, in spite of reminders etcetera.

I would proactively tutor certain students, and would find many suffer from poor memories. You can give them a process, or set of steps to solve a problem, and then model the solving process. You can ask them questions about the process, to make sure they understand it. Then, you give them a new problem that can be solved using exactly the same steps. They can't remember the process. So, their innate, short and long term memory capacity is really important.

As a teacher, I think one way of determining teacher effectiveness is by observing them in the classroom, as well as the materials they provide to the students, and the assessments they give.

The assessments need to be tightly coupled to what their support/teaching materials shold be. If a teacher gives something in class, and then sends students home with an entirely different set of problems to solve that don't bear on the material in class - you get poor performance.

I also believe teaching ability is at least, or more important than technical understanding. The ability to make complicated things simple is a key skill for a teacher, and it helps if you had to struggle with understanding the material yourself if you're going to teach it effectively.

[Traveler]

Interesting what is being said about teachers and teaching. One of the benefits I supply to companies I consult with is to teach blue collar workers (many with hardly a high school education) and company executives (many with advanced degrees from prestigious universities) how to analyze and maintain complex automated robotic systems. I have experienced little difference between what are labeled very smart people and very dumb people.

What is interesting to me is how quickly people learn when their job or bonus is on the line. Teaching and education is not as difficult as it is made out to be. The problems of teaching is ether the student that is not motivated to learn or the teacher that is not motivated to teach and in some cases it is both.

The Traveler

[zippy_do46]

Traveler, what if you had to teach a group how to start up a system. In your instruction you have a red button that has to be pushed. What if the red button needs to be pushed by a color-blind person? Would you have to change your method to teach him? Your job would be to teach the people who you have to know this. He must learn so you teach that the red button is now the 3rd one from the right instead of using a color. As a teacher you make the adjustment. Now you have to teach 20 others in 30 min. Oh, you also have 3 students who do not speak English and another who is a special needs.

Motivation is not the only solution. Not all students learn the same way. Some students may want to learn but can not learn the way that is demanded. Time is a factor because certain subjects have to be taught at certain times. Some subjects have to be taught in order. If any one part is missed then the student is behind.

I do believe that in some cases there is a lack of motivation by one or the other or both. I am just saying this is not always the case. Nor is teaching so simple anymore. Our Leadership who may never have taught in a class room is deciding how things are done based on studies.

:) Now, Traveler I know you are a good teacher. But studies show you need to take a test every couple of years to make sure you keep up with your subject matter. If you don't (motivation) you can not consult. Oh, and traveler these people you teach have to have a test to see if you are doing your job. You can not grade the test to see where they lack. Someone else will and tell you in numbers where you went wrong. The kicker is now a study says this test is not a good one. So they will have to take another test and you have to go back to school to learn how to give a test the way someone tells you to. All of this, to push the red button. :)

PS I hope you do not take this wrong. I am just mad because we are losing so many good teachers. Our children are the ones that will suffer. I believe there is no simple answer.

[prisonchaplain]

We can tell them until we're blue in the face, but it won't change anything. A teacher's union, by definition, has the well-being of it's members as their top priority. That means 'quality education for children' is not their top priority. That means when the two are in conflict, they side with the teacher. By definition.

Gentle persuasion and civil reasoning isn't how you handle unions. They must be treated as the enemy and dealt with accordingly.

LM

I'm not sure I agree that the teachers are the enemy here. Most of the ones where I live have Master's degree, take college-level courses throughout their careers, simply as part of being a professional educator. They work well be on the bell, and usually arrive well beforehand. Could it be that if our teachers are taken care of and rallied behind, they will, in most cases, perform to their optimum for our kids?

[prisonchaplain]

wake up people the school system has been going down the drain for years. they need to make it harder to get a teachers degree, and teachers need to be tested. and more money needs to go into schools. They need to bring the standards up for teachers and for the students. Lowering the standards is not a good thing.This has been going on for years.

Ironically, this whole "raise the standards" song has led to more and more testing and bureaucracy. The problem is that the most measurable tests are standardized ones, which measure little of the key elements to successful teaching. Most teachers in our area hold Masters degrees, and are well beyond competent to teach elementary school children. IMHO, when a teacher is considered bad or incompetent, it usually has more to do with discipline style and classroom control than knowledge, skills and aptitudes. But how do you standardize-test that???

[prisonchaplain]

I have a Master's Degree in Teaching, with an emphasis on History. Let me tell you, the education classes are often over rated. I think every instructor needs one or two classes on how to teach well, but the amount required for Primary and Secondary schooling is ridiculous. Studies show it is more important for the teacher to know and understand the materials than to know the mechanics of teaching.

I'd largely agree with you--at the secondary level. However, my undergraduate studies were in History/Politics and Elementary Ed. Ironically, I've found those "education mechanics" courses quite useful--even with my work in prison. IMHO, there is too much standardized testing, and not enough mentoring to teach the art of teaching and classroom management.