Is it ever ok to Lie?

[Guest mormonmusic]

I'd have lied to him. And I wouldn't have thought twice about it. It wouldn't be the first time I'd done it, nor will it be the last.

I took a middle road. I told him that the Bishopric "normally holds reasons for callings and releases really close to the vest, and that priesthood leaders aren't usually privvy to the reasons." So, I made an honest statement, but sort of side-stepped the question of whether I knew. That phrase "not normally" was my saving grace -- one that I'd read in the handbook a few times back when I had access to it.

Then I told him that he probably needed just to take what the Bishopric said at face value.

And then, before he had a chance to answer, I followed up with a series of reasons why I was glad he'd been released from SS since I really needed someone in the position, my perception of his ability to work with less actives, his reliability, and just how happy I was to have them agree to make him part of the quorum leadership. Launched into a couple things he'd done that made him a first choice for the calling and that I was really looking foward to what we were going to accomplish going forward etcetera. All sincere complements and affirmation of him as an individual.

It brought the whole thing to a soft landing.

[applepansy]

I took a middle road. I told him that the Bishopric "normally holds reasons for callings and releases really close to the vest, and that priesthood leaders aren't usually privvy to the reasons." So, I made an honest statement, but sort of side-stepped the question of whether I knew. That phrase "not normally" was my saving grace -- one that I'd read in the handbook a few times back when I had access to it.

Then I told him that he probably needed just to take what the Bishopric said at face value.

And then, before he had a chance to answer, I followed up with a series of reasons why I was glad he'd been released from SS since I really needed someone in the position, my perception of his ability to work with less actives, his reliability, and just how happy I was to have them agree to make him part of the quorum leadership. Launched into a couple things he'd done that made him a first choice for the calling and that I was really looking foward to what we were going to accomplish going forward etcetera. All sincere complements and affirmation of him as an individual.

It brought the whole thing to a soft landing.

You're more diplomatic than I am. One of my shortcomings.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Mormonmusic, I would be very candid with that man. First because he asked for honesty even if it hurt. And second, because he wanted honesty he would probably learn from his mistake..

I see the point. When you have only a split second to decide, it's hard to know what's best.

In this case, I felt it was wrong to be that candid, even though he asked for brutal honesty. I didn't think it would help much with his relationship with the SS President, or the Bishopric to find out the Bishopric had not been truthful with him. Also, I was concerned about my own relationship with the Bishopric if they found out I shared confidential information. He could've run to the Bishopric with it, and then there would be further drama.

Also, no sense in letting him beat himself up over this; I sensed he knew he'd done something wrong and knew it in his heart.

What I said, above, actually worked OK. He didn't raise the question again, and he went on to do a stellar job in the HP Group. He activated a couple families, put on a bunch of socials with little or no supervision, did everything reliably. There was no blip in his performance or activity, and he seems positive about the Ward leadership.

I'm not sure if those positives would've happened if he'd found out the Bishpric hadn't been forthright with him.

By the way, there's a lesson in this -- as a Bishopric member, be careful what you tell people out side of the Bishopric. The whole reason I was in that awkward position was because the Bishop's counselor shared more information than he should've with me. If he handnt't told me the reason they were releasing him, I would've never had this conundrum in the first place. And I didn't need to know the reason he was being released either.

If the cause of his release wasn't shared, I could've just told Brother X I didn't know.....

Edited June 2, 2010 by mormonmusic

[Dravin]

I'd say yes. For instance, "Are you harboring any Jews?," asked the well dressed Gestapo agent. Additionally even he who if all men were like unto the very foundations of Hell would be shaken forever lied once or twice, or at least encouraged one (Alma 55). Personally I don't take exception to his deception, but I think the key element in my hypothetical is the preservation of life, they weren't trying to wrangle and extra 5% discount at Wal-Mart.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Dravin

[Gwen]

i used to lie in school when i would get invited to a party or something i really didn't want to go to. i would tell them my parents said i couldn't go. then i would go home and say "mom, if anyone asks you said i couldn't go to..... party" she never questioned me. she figured if i made the decision then it was for a reason and she was happy to be my excuse.

[Reform_Mormon]

I work 3rd shift at a gas station and a few nights ago this guy comes in. It is obvious he is drunk, he even mentioned he was. So he goes outside and his car won't crank. The battery is dead. So he comes inside to ask if I have jumper cables. I'm left with three options.

1. Jump off his car

2. Tell him I don't have any

3. Tell him yes I have them but that he is too drunk to drive, And put myself in the position of arguing with a drunk while all alone at 3 am.

Without much thought, I chose to tell him I didn't have any. We teach our kids it's never okay to lie. But is it sometimes necessary?

I would agree that sometimes lying is necessary... I mean Abraham lied to Pharaoh about Sarah

[Wingnut]

In this case, I felt it was wrong to be that candid, even though he asked for brutal honesty. I didn't think it would help much with his relationship with the SS President, or the Bishopric to find out the Bishopric had not been truthful with him. Also, I was concerned about my own relationship with the Bishopric if they found out I shared confidential information. He could've run to the Bishopric with it, and then there would be further drama.

For these reasons, what you did was probably the right move. I would definitely not want to create tension, disrespect of leaders, or hard feelings.

[beefche]

I think it is ok to lie sometimes. I've been lying to ya'll and it's worked out great for me.

[MarginOfError]

I think it is ok to lie sometimes. I've been lying to ya'll and it's worked out great for me.

Honestly?

[Traveler]

I think we are comparing apples and oranges. The scriptures (10 commandments) do not say not to lie. What the scriptures say is not to bear false witness against your neighbor.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Hi Traveler. Please tell me more about that distinction and how bearing false witness is not lying. Thanks.

[Gretchen]

I personally think it depends on the circumstance. During World War Two, Jews where being persecuted, and some people tried to help them by hiding them, and they (the people hiding the Jews) would have to lie and get food and stuff from the black-market. But it is also in the ten commandments, "thou shalt not kill", and if they didn't try to help, it would have been bugging them forever that they let innocent people die.

In your case, if you let the drunk drive off, he could have gotten in an accident, and killed someone. I'd have told him to wait outside while I looked, and called the cops.

Just my two cents.

[Moksha]

If morality is all relative, then lies of convenience should be common place, right?

[Elgama]

Both Abraham and Isaac told the same lie to Pharoah it happened twice in Genesis. Although in Abraham's case Sarah was his Sister:)

I think it sets the precedent that in order to protect yourself and family and lie may sometimes be necessary.

[Wingnut]

I think it is ok to lie sometimes. I've been lying to ya'll and it's worked out great for me.

Wait, you're married????

[Traveler]

Hi Traveler. Please tell me more about that distinction and how bearing false witness is not lying. Thanks.

First off you are not paying attention. I do not know why but you have left out the phrase "against thy neighbor". The commandment in Exodus 20:16 is as follows:

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

There are many ways to lie and without a doubt bearing a false witness against your neighbor is one of them. However, it is this type of slander that G-d singled out as a grievous sin and pronounced as a commandment.

It is my personal opinion that the phrase you have ignored is important to the L-rd – otherwise I think he would have given the commandment as you have stated it. If this is something you are not really very clear about in your understanding – I would be most honored to discuss my opinion on this matter in much more detail.

The Traveler

[Guest mormonmusic]

What about the Article faith that indicates we believe in being honest....true, and chased by an elephant? Just how dishonest can you be without falling out of favor with God who doesn't look upon sin without the least degree of allowance?

[Dravin]

Wait, you're married????

Not only is she married I hear the guy is a stud.

[beefche]

Not only is she married I hear the guy is a stud.

That's a bunch of bull....

[Dravin]

That's a bunch of bull....

You're just trying to steer us in the wrong direction, I'm onto you.

[Wingnut]

Quit horsing around!

[Wingnut]

Did I just kill the metaphor?

[Dravin]

Quit horsing around!

Don't try to corral us!

[Guest xforeverxmetalx]

I think when in doubt, you can't really go wrong with asking yourself what Christ would do. If He were entrusted to protect some Jews, I bet He would tell anyone asking where they were that He didn't know. And I think in the gas station drunk situation, He'd do something along the lines of asking to go look for it and calling the cops, or just saying that He didn't have it [and maybe call the cops afterwards].

In general though, unless it's putting something important at risk, I think the default idea is not to lie.

[Moksha]

What about the Article faith that indicates we believe in being honest....true, and chased by an elephant? Just how dishonest can you be without falling out of favor with God who doesn't look upon sin without the least degree of allowance?

Doesn't this just mean that God does not wish you to lie in his name or in his behalf?