Atonement doesn't make sense Part 2

[Vardos]

The point has been made that the Atonement includes both the actions in the Garden of Gethsemane and The Crucifixion. I would argue that there are two more parts of it, the Resurrection and the one most people forget or don't fully understand the symbolism of it, The Last Supper.

One must remember that when Christ came to Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, the beginning of the last week of his life, the city was crowded with people who had gathered to commemorate the weeklong Passover celebrations. The Passover hearkens back to the days of the enslavement of the children of Israel by Pharoah. The details of the last plague were that all firstborn males in Egypt would die. The Hebrews painted the blood of the lamb above their door so the Angel of Death would Passover their homes. According to the chronology of the last week of the Savior's life suggested by the Gospel of John, Passover actually began at sunset the day Jesus was crucified. So, if we think about it, in this scenario the paschal lambs, which were always sacrificed before the beginning of Passover so that they would be ready in time for the traditional Passover meal, would have been sacrificed in the temple at the very same time that the Lamb of God, was dying on the cross.

If we look at the events of The Last Supper, Christ was actually breaking with tradition by celebrating the Passover feast early. For this Passover feast, Christ taught us that the bread of the feast represented his body, and the wine, or for us now, water, represented his blood. This Passover Feast, what we now call The Sacrament, represented a new Passover, a symbolism of the sacrifice of our Savior on Golgotha, a symbol of his intercession in Gethsemane, and symbol of his resurrection. This sacrament was the new Passover; a Passover from the Angel of Death not just for the firstborn of the children of Israel, but for all-mankind.

[jayanna]

The point has been made that the Atonement includes both the actions in the Garden of Gethsemane and The Crucifixion. I would argue that there are two more parts of it, the Resurrection and the one most people forget or don't fully understand the symbolism of it, The Last Supper.

.

And if you count up the three days he said it would take to tear down and rebuild His temple (body) it included the Last Supper and the Resurrection.

The bread represents His body, which had to be laid down, as well as His blood, which was represented as the wine.

Sacrament would not be complete without both the body and the blood of Christ, our sins are not washed away without both.

[Guest]

Justice and Mercy.

God has to be both just and merciful. But, the 2 are opposites. One cannot be Just and at the same time Merciful. In the example given of the debt and the debtor, the debt has to be paid to fulfill Justice. When Adam chose to transgress and allowed us our agency, Justice requires that he die. If God would say, it's okay, you don't have to pay that debt - then he is not Just.

But because of God's mercy he cannot send us all to die without a path to resurrection. Therefore, somebody has to intercede so that both Justice and Mercy can be fulfilled. That somebody is Jesus Christ. And that intercession is the Atonement.

Why does Jesus have to die? Because, death is the price for Adam's transgression and our agency - God's justice. It is through Jesus' death - the payment of our debt - that we overcome death and be resurrected - God's mercy.

Hope this helps.

Edited September 16, 2010 by anatess

[TheAngelPalmoni]

Hi

Lets try this again, can anyone explain the atonement? Just a simple why it was needed?

Why can't Heavenly father just forgive us without the atonement?

What is your back ground and core religious knowledge and understanding? Tell me as much as you can...

[Just_A_Guy]

Boo60, watch

.

[Guest tomk]

I think what gets us the closest to the actual answer is this talk. A link to the talk was given you you earlier:

A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement Cronk

You (and anyone else who is not sure what the Atonement was or why it was needed) really need to study this talk. Read it through several times. Visit each scripture that is listed. Ponder. Pray.

In a nutshell, here is the why and the how of the Atonement:

-There is the existence of Universal Law. The "demands of justice".

-Heavenly Father MUST....YES, MUST.... obey these laws. Even He is subject to them! If He tried to go against them, he would lose His Power. He has honor among these intelligences (intelligences = the demands of justice)

-Heavenly Father could not atone for our sins. He could not just "brings us back" when we were done with mortality. Universal Law says...no...that don't work.

-BUT, these Intelligences can be moved with compassion. They have a heart. They can be asked to set aside Justice and let Mercy claim the penitent.

-This is where Christ comes in. He came down to earth specifically to perform the Atonement. He voluntarily suffered so much, that the Intelligences (that which enforces Universal Law) were moved with compassion. Thus...Christ was able to "bring about the bowels of mercy" not in Heavenly Father, but in these Intelligences. Christ moved them to compassion. "Not for their sake....but for YOUR sake...they can return to Heavenly Father....if they mean that much to YOU....they can come up." Thus the new TERMS were brought into place...that we would forge a relationship with Christ...come to Him with our sins and weaknesses...invite and allow Him to sanctify and redeem us...claim us HIS! And Those that are Christs are God's.

-The Atonement is based on MERCY and LOVE. Christ gives us an easy YOKE and a LIGHT burden (compared to the weight of a sinful life). It is not easy. He does not destroy the YOKE...He just becomes YOKED WITH US...such that the burden becomes manageable. Without Him yoked with us...we cannot have claim upon Mercy. That is why we all need Christ. A personal intimate relationship not with the Father...but with Christ. The Father has ordained Christ to be our Savior, not Himself.

3 Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—

4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;

5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.

6 Hearken, O ye people of my church, and ye elders listen together, and hear my voice while it is called today, and harden not your hearts;

7 For verily I say unto you that I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the light and the life of the world—a light that shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

8 I came unto mine own, and mine own received me not; but unto as many as received me gave I power to do many miracles, and to become the sons of God; and even unto them that believed on my name gave I power to obtain eternal life.

Good luck!

Tom

[Greg95821]

I'm going to try to explain this as I understand it. Bear wish me on this, it'll all come together eventually.

The entire point of our living is to learn the lessons we have to learn and grow how we have to grow in order to one day be exalted (i.e. become like our Heavenly Father). In this life here on earth we're going to screw up and do something we aren't supposed to do every once in a while (i.e. sin). That's where things start to get dicey.

When we do something wrong, we have to be punished for the same reason a person punishes their kids when they do something wrong. It's in order to teach us right from wrong. Of course, the punishment also has to fit the crime. The problem is, there's only one fair punishment for doing something wrong, death. That's also one of the oh-so-common stumbling blocks you have to figure out to understand the atonement. No matter how minor the sin may seem, death is still the fair punishment for it.

Now, while physical death is a part of our punishment, spiritual death is the part that's troublesome. Spiritual death is basically being separated from God for the rest of eternity, and it essentially disqualifies you from exaltation. It's a catch-22. In order to learn the lessons you need to learn to be exalted, you have to live. When you live, you'll inevitably sin, which will result in spiritual death and prevent you from becoming exalted.

The answer to this dilemma is the atonement. First the person acting as our savior had to live a perfect life without sin. By doing this, he doesn't need to be punished. Then, he basically suffers a PHYSICAL death on the cross for us so that we don't have to suffer the SPIRITUAL death that's due to us.

Now to really get to the answer to your question as to why God couldn't outright forgive us. It's like this, we still needed to be punished so we would learn our lesson, and Christ dieing on the cross in and of itself wouldn't teach us anything. What really saves us is that we acknowledge that Christ made that sacrifice for us and we repent of what we did.

Bear in mine what real and true repentance is. Repentance is feeling true sorrow for what you did, and truly regretting Christ had to go through that for you. It's why if you punish one kid for what another one did, if the kid that actually committed the offense truly regrets his friend getting in trouble, he's just as apt to learn from the lesson as if he himself was punished.

In summary, the atonement had to happen so that we could be punished for our mistakes and learn what we needed to learn in life, while still being able to return to our Heavenly Father and continue maturing as his children after this life was over.

I hope that was helpful to you :)

[TheActualLiz]

WOW! So many amazing perspectives on the atonement that I actually feel a little dizzy and want to cry out of gratitude.

To the best of my understanding the garden was where Christ took on all the pain of the world. That meant that no matter how bad my depression or anger or grief or regret... Christ had experienced all of it... voluntarily... and still had the strength to carry out God's will. Christ was still carrying all of this when he went to trial and faced the injustice and physical pain inflicted by the Roman court system. Christ then showed through example how far we must take the principle of forgiveness by praying for the soldiers as they nail Him to the cross. When Christ was pierced by the spear of a soldier blood and water came out indicating that His heart had literally broken for us. That would mean it was our sins and pain combined with Christ's compassion that caused death, not the brutality of the execution.

Please correct me if I am missing something or you have a slightly different viewpoint to discuss. Thank you to all who have shared on this topic. I need to go pray.

Liz

[Moksha]

THANK YOU!!!

Wow, this is like finding a hidden treasure.

I'm finding I may not have the mental capacity to understand the Atonement, but I'm going to try.

Think of it as a story that possessed numerous possible alternate endings. Like the character Indiana Jones, you could have experienced the final disposition of the Ark in many different ways - some good some bad. However, unless someone comes along with a Director's cut, the studio version is a wrap.

The atonement in this sense is the studio wrap. No need to anguish about it

[boo60]

So Sacrament meeting is over, and it was awesome!

I've never had so many comments after a sacrament talk, people coming up and saying it made sense, and they'd never thought of it that...

I'm feeling pretty cool, this was definitely the right place to come for help with a talk.

I talked about the crucifixion, the intelligences, agency, satan, that president lincoln story, a couple of funny jokes from Pam, and VIOLA!

Thanks guys, and most importantly I've learnt SO much.:D:D:D

[Therauh]

What President Lincoln story?

Oh and grats on the talk!

Curious how ya tied Abe into the atonement cause he's my favorite pres.He was born on my birthday and strangly I hear I had family way back when that had the last name of Booth

Edited September 19, 2010 by Therauh

[pam]

Well glad I could play a part in it, even for some humor relief.

[boo60]

Let me just give you an example now as I finish of Abraham Lincoln. I just want to show you how this happens every day in real life. If you want to see how intelligence overcomes the demands of justice, watch this. There was a boy fighting in the Union Forces. 19 years old. Went to sleep on guard duty. And the opposition broke through and wiped out a whole flank of the army. Several hundred were killed, including some of the best friends of this young man. But he survived. Court-martialed. Sentenced to die. He expected to die. He thought it was only just that he die. And president Lincoln was ready to sign his death warrant for his execution and a little mother appears on the scene.

She says, “President Lincoln, when this war started, I had a husband and six sons. First I lost my husband, and one by one I lost five of my sons. Now I only have one son left and he’s sentenced to be executed with a firing squad because he went to sleep. He feels awfully badly, he lost some of his best friends and he expects to die. President Lincoln, I’m not asking for the sparing of this boy’s life for his sake, but for his mother’s sake. He’s all I have left. For my sake could you spare him?” President Lincoln said, “For your sake, little mother, I will spare him.” And as far as I know President Lincoln was never criticized for that decision.

[jayanna]

ooooo nice :)

[mikbone]

So Sacrament meeting is over, and it was awesome!

I've never had so many comments after a sacrament talk, people coming up and saying it made sense, and they'd never thought of it that...

I'm feeling pretty cool, this was definitely the right place to come for help with a talk.

I talked about the crucifixion, the intelligences, agency, satan, that president lincoln story, a couple of funny jokes from Pam, and VIOLA!

Thanks guys, and most importantly I've learnt SO much.:D:D:D

Congrads!

I'm glad that you enjoyed the Cleon Skousen talk. A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement

You may want to pick up his book, The First 2,000 Years, W. Cleon Skousen. Behind the scriptures and the words of Joseph Smith, I believe that I have learned more about LDS doctrine from this book. The book also taught me how to read scripture, and think. His atonement theory is also found there, in a more scholarly format, in the Appendix. Why he ever put that beautiful theory in an appendix escapes me... Those nine pages changed my life.

Edited September 19, 2010 by mikbone

[Gomezy3k]

I'm going to try to explain this as I understand it. Bear wish me on this, it'll all come together eventually.

The entire point of our living is to learn the lessons we have to learn and grow how we have to grow in order to one day be exalted (i.e. become like our Heavenly Father). In this life here on earth we're going to screw up and do something we aren't supposed to do every once in a while (i.e. sin). That's where things start to get dicey.

When we do something wrong, we have to be punished for the same reason a person punishes their kids when they do something wrong. It's in order to teach us right from wrong. Of course, the punishment also has to fit the crime. The problem is, there's only one fair punishment for doing something wrong, death. That's also one of the oh-so-common stumbling blocks you have to figure out to understand the atonement. No matter how minor the sin may seem, death is still the fair punishment for it.

Now, while physical death is a part of our punishment, spiritual death is the part that's troublesome. Spiritual death is basically being separated from God for the rest of eternity, and it essentially disqualifies you from exaltation. It's a catch-22. In order to learn the lessons you need to learn to be exalted, you have to live. When you live, you'll inevitably sin, which will result in spiritual death and prevent you from becoming exalted.

The answer to this dilemma is the atonement. First the person acting as our savior had to live a perfect life without sin. By doing this, he doesn't need to be punished. Then, he basically suffers a PHYSICAL death on the cross for us so that we don't have to suffer the SPIRITUAL death that's due to us.

Now to really get to the answer to your question as to why God couldn't outright forgive us. It's like this, we still needed to be punished so we would learn our lesson, and Christ dieing on the cross in and of itself wouldn't teach us anything. What really saves us is that we acknowledge that Christ made that sacrifice for us and we repent of what we did.

Bear in mine what real and true repentance is. Repentance is feeling true sorrow for what you did, and truly regretting Christ had to go through that for you. It's why if you punish one kid for what another one did, if the kid that actually committed the offense truly regrets his friend getting in trouble, he's just as apt to learn from the lesson as if he himself was punished.

In summary, the atonement had to happen so that we could be punished for our mistakes and learn what we needed to learn in life, while still being able to return to our Heavenly Father and continue maturing as his children after this life was over.

I hope that was helpful to you :)

OK so we need to be punished for what we do wrong... then why is it that we cannot take the punishment and when finished with it, move on. It seems like from what I get, when we are judged we are screwed and no matter how long we are punished we can never continue on. And the only way to move on is to accept Jesus or else.

God judges us for the one Planck (note for the uneducated that is the smallest measurement of time there is) we are here on earth and then we are punished eternally for that minute segment of time forever. Somewhat similar to me taking a second and if my kids were doing something wrong at that second, locking them in a closet for the rest of their lives, or if they were doing something good rewarding them for the rest of their lives.

To me this is definitely NOT a fair and "loving" way for god to treat us. We should be able to continue to progress and eventually ALL become "gods" instead of a lucky few, while the rest of us are screwed over by the big guy.

[Guest tomk]

OK so we need to be punished for what we do wrong... then why is it that we cannot take the punishment and when finished with it, move on. It seems like from what I get, when we are judged we are screwed and no matter how long we are punished we can never continue on. And the only way to move on is to accept Jesus or else.

God judges us for the one Planck (note for the uneducated that is the smallest measurement of time there is) we are here on earth and then we are punished eternally for that minute segment of time forever. Somewhat similar to me taking a second and if my kids were doing something wrong at that second, locking them in a closet for the rest of their lives, or if they were doing something good rewarding them for the rest of their lives.

To me this is definitely NOT a fair and "loving" way for god to treat us. We should be able to continue to progress and eventually ALL become "gods" instead of a lucky few, while the rest of us are screwed over by the big guy.

Hi Gomezy3k,

God, too, must work within the framework of Justice and Mercy. His is not arbitrary in His judgments. Mercy cannot rob the Demands of Justice, but it can satisfy the Demands of Justice. This is what Christ did for us that none other, not even Heavenly Father, could do for us. We needed Someone who had power over life and death. Who could voluntarily lay down His life and take it up again. Someone who would voluntarily suffer so much anguish of body and soul that the heavens would be moved, bringing about the bowels of mercy.

Our work is to forge a relationship with Jesus Christ. Lay bare our souls to Him. Ask Him to strengthen us...and change us into new creatures. Whatever your sentiments are towards God and Christ now...they can change. As you come to know the Lord, you will discover that what He has done for you He can and is willing to do for ALL. As you come to know the Lord, you will discover that there is nothing He will not do in order to save us from Hell.

But there is one crucial element in all of this. We must let go of our stubborn self-will. We must surrender to His will for us. This too is a process...not accomplished in a day or a week or a month...or even over the space of many years. But it can happen and it does happen. Those who experience it understand it, but we don't have the language to explain it or describe it to others. The Lord reserves this unto Himself. It is between the Lord and that person. Ultimately, salvation is one by one, between ourselves and Jesus Christ. Personal. Intimate. Soul deep.

I must do better. With His help I know I can do it.

Tom

[Tyler90AZ]

OK so we need to be punished for what we do wrong... then why is it that we cannot take the punishment and when finished with it, move on. It seems like from what I get, when we are judged we are screwed and no matter how long we are punished we can never continue on. And the only way to move on is to accept Jesus or else.

God judges us for the one Planck (note for the uneducated that is the smallest measurement of time there is) we are here on earth and then we are punished eternally for that minute segment of time forever. Somewhat similar to me taking a second and if my kids were doing something wrong at that second, locking them in a closet for the rest of their lives, or if they were doing something good rewarding them for the rest of their lives.

To me this is definitely NOT a fair and "loving" way for god to treat us. We should be able to continue to progress and eventually ALL become "gods" instead of a lucky few, while the rest of us are screwed over by the big guy.

Sorry to pull up an old thread. I was doing some research on the atonement and stumbled across this. The Cleon Skousen talk was great! I also want to touch on the Planck comment.

The Planck comment holds no bar with me for this reason. Mortality is a Planck in eternity, but within that Planck we make multiple decisions. With the decisions we make in mortality Heavenly Father can get a good gauge of who we are.

Now I will touch on the analogy with your kids. Yes, a second in mortality is much longer then mortality in eternity. The problem though is the decisions made within those two time frames. Within a second you make one decision. Within mortality you make many decisions.

Any thoughts on this would be interesting to hear or counter arguments.

[GADBabaganoosh]

Your messages have been great, I think I'm getting it.

I am/was getting confused about the fall and original sin and all that. I kept thinking Eve/Adam and the fall. Because of that quote "As descendants of Adam and Eve, all people inherit the effects of the Fall. In our fallen state, we are subject to opposition and temptation"

BUT its actually about the plan of salvation.

My question has always been the WHY.

Correct me if I'm wrong again.

Jesus Christ came up with the plan that we fall. We get agency essentially sinners.

Jesus Christ had to come and suffer for that plan. Why did he have to die for the plan? Is this one of those sealed in blood things?

The atonement is because of the plan of salvation?

You have to die first before you can be ressurected. He was the first. The atonement and ressurection. The ressurection was kind of part of it. Remember, in order for us to get ressurection, he had to get it first. We are joint heirs with christ, and we'll receive the first ressurection if we are faithful in this life.

[bert10]

Well first of all The Father does forgive us when we change within. Where in the Scriptures is it written ....that Jesus said...."I forgive thee?" Is it not always written that Jesus said..."Thy sins are forgiven thee?"

I am not saying here that the Father has not given Jesus permission to also forgive Sins.

Now let us move on to the Atonement.

Some have made the word...to mean AT-ONE - MENT. Is Also RECONCILIATION.....To be at ONE IN THE MOMENT is ONESS or MARRIAGE in the fullest of the sense.

We cannot be joined with perfection unless we are able to become it ourselves. Cleanliness of soul is not about just how to become cleanse the idea is to remain cleansed and pure regardless of what we are thrown at.

There is no purpose for God to forgive the filthy who cannot live the laws of Love so that they can be put in a kingdom where the laws of love are lived to the fullest. That man like the angels in the beginning...will eventually fail and until he does...he will be miserable. But if that man fails in that kingdom there is only darkness left for him which is no kingdom at all.

So it is better that all men be judged according to their works and be put in kingdoms whose laws they will be able to live and be happy with in eternity.

bert10

Hi

Lets try this again, can anyone explain the atonement? Just a simple why it was needed?

Why can't Heavenly father just forgive us without the atonement?

[Blackmarch]

Hi

Lets try this again, can anyone explain the atonement? Just a simple why it was needed?

Why can't Heavenly father just forgive us without the atonement?

if God pardons even one sin, then he must pardon all sins tobe just, and when that happens he would nullify the laws. Once the requirements of the laws are satisfied then people can be saved- which is what Christ did, he satisfied the laws.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

Physical Sin can only be held by a physical Body. Where do the sins go after the judgement?

[bert10]

Well Look at it this way...God can forgive all men who are renewed unto repentance by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And they who are sons of perdition cannot be renewed unto repentance...and since repentance is the condition that needs to be fulfilled; forgiveness cannot be given to sons of perdition.

Hebrew chapter 6 verses 4-6 gives a list of what will happen if one falls from it.

bert19

if God pardons even one sin, then he must pardon all sins tobe just, and when that happens he would nullify the laws. Once the requirements of the laws are satisfied then people can be saved- which is what Christ did, he satisfied the laws.

[captmoroniRM]

Probably the most profound thing I've ever heard in regards to understanding the atonement, is that it really doesn't matter if you fully understand "why" or "how" the atonement works or had to happen, but that you understand that it "does" work, that we can be forgiven of our sins.

[bert10]

Simply put...the Atonement is the Reconciliation between man and the Father via Jesus Christ.

Under the Covenant...the Reconciliation is not about letting the filthy enter into heaven. The Reconciliation is predicated on repentance which is also called washing and cleanliness. If we fulfill the conditions of the Covenant then Jesus will reconcile us to the Father...for no one goes to the Father except by Jesus Christ who is the mediator of the Covenant.

bert10

Hi

Lets try this again, can anyone explain the atonement? Just a simple why it was needed?

Why can't Heavenly father just forgive us without the atonement?