Transgender

[Desertknight]

This such a sensitive topic that I am very hesitant to comment, and for exactly the reason that one can see from the exchange here. giantCplus, it is impossible for me to truly understand your struggle and I have nothing but good will toward you, but I would be cautious in buying into what modern society tells you, regarding this issue. I'll just stick to one point that FunkyTown has made that I was curious as to why so many posts in this thread, has avoided. There is no such thing as a "sex change" operation, or sexual "reassignment". That is an impossibility, a modernist fiction in our morally twisted age. Modern medicine has managed to come up with inventive ways of genital mutilation, and tampering with the human body physiologically, and then advancing the lie about what they really do. Now it may have the effect of making it easier to present oneself with the appearance that matches the psychology, but it can't change creation and it is, IMHO, mutilation and not surgery. Nor could there be any valid marriage to someone who would still be of your same sex, afterwards. I don't have any bigger answers as it is pretty foreign territory to me, but I can pray for you and hope you explore this more completely as FunkyTown suggest.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Desertknight

[giantCplus]

Thank you funky town, I did step back and you kind of hit a tender nerve with me. I am sensitive to this whole transgender thing. I have grown up as a transgender and gone through all the heartache of feeling out of place in my own body. There have been times when I have look at myself in the mirror and felt this overwhelming disgust with what I see. I have hated myself and loathed being in my own presence. I have been mistreated in school and in the church because I act different. People do not know that I am transgender, but they can see I am different in some way and they seem to think that gives them the right to treat me poorly.

When I found this forum I thought; great, I have found a place with people like me who have struggled like me. I saw this forum as a place to share stories and encourage others in their struggles. I read great stories from some of the authors on this forum as Perigon, Katie 77584, slamjet, Spartan117, and many others. They shared their ideas and I was encouraged and inspired by them. They helped me and I hope others who struggle, or those who do not understand. I then I started reading some of the responses, like the one I quoted, that made me feel like I was a sinner and the only way back was to simply stop feeling like this. Like I could just turn it off like a tap.

You asked; What if it won't make you happy? This is the very narrow minded and ignorant statement that I have been talking about. The stats contradict this statement you make, and even from the article you quoted in a previous post. Transgender Americans face high suicide risk - Health - Health care - More health news - msnbc.com state that the suicide rate before surgery is 41 %. And in two other articles. BBC NEWS | Health | Sex-change patients' op success, Most Patients Who Have Male-To-Female Sex-Change Surgery Are Happy, Despite Complications, both state 88% art happy and in a follow up with 70 of the original 222, 80% where still happy. The stats say yes. I have read many accounts that say they are happier after surgery. SRS helps. I have also heard many say that even before surgery they feel better on hormone replacement therapy.

I would like to share a story of a friend, and this is what he said. “I do not have gender identity dysphoria, but my daughter does. I raised her as my son for 19 years before she told me. She was the shining example in our ward, president of her priesthood quorums and fist assistant to the bishop. She attended an LDS Curriculum private high school and was active in the student body. I was looking forward to her attending a mission and raising my grandchildren.

“She first told me that she was attracted to other boys. My wife and I were devastated, but we made sure she knows that we loved her and that would never change. I was serving in a bishopric at the time so I got out my manual and tried to understand what the Lord had said about this. She quit coming to church, but has never lost her testimony.

“Then she told me that she was a girl trapped in a boy's body, but assured me that she didn't intend to actually do anything about it. (I think she thought this was what I wanted to hear.) A few months later, late one evening she came to me and said that she had just tried to hurt herself and that although she stopped she realized she needed professional help.

“I realized at that moment that I would rather have a transgender daughter who was healthy and happy, than a miserable son who was so tortured that he contemplated suicide. That evening I decided that if she needed to transition I would support her all the way. “

I would like you to take a few minutes to read the story of Alex Chrisholm - Riding the Gender Pendulum He has an amazing story and he has been through hell and back. In spite of everything; his stake president supported him despite how he feels. “With a heavy heart, I informed my local Church leaders of my decision. Fortunately, they cared a great deal for me and showed me nothing but love. In the end, I received well wishes from them all with a special commitment by the stake president that if I ever needed anything, he could be called day or night.” This and the story of my friend is the kind of compassion I am talking about. This is compassion coming from our leaders who are setting the example for us.

Now speaking of myself; at around the age of ten or eleven my bottle had broken (that I kept my transgender feeling in) so to speak. I had spiralled into the darkest depth of my emotions. I hated myself for feeling this way. I felt so evil and there was nothing I could do to change it. I did not know how to deal with these feelings. I was so terrified to tell anyone for fear that I would be ladled a sinner for feeling this way and the only way to save myself was to STOP!!! But I did not know how. I loathed myself and wanted to die. As I sat all alone at home that night, I wallowed in the darkest dreary depth of despair. I went into the kitchen and took the biggest knife I could find and held it to my chest. I did not want to live like this any longer. And the saddest part of it all was my family would not have seen it coming. At the time I did not know what stayed my hand, but it was the darkest time in my life. I placed the knife back in the drawer and went to my room. I threw myself to my bed and howled bitter tears. I cried myself to sleep thinking; “I can’t do it, I can’t even kill myself. I would always be trapped in this wretched despondent existence I called life.” And my hatred for myself grew. I did not know what I had at the tome, but if I could not be a girl, I wanted to die. On so many occasions that I can not count; I would whish and pray that god would make me a normal happy boy. That is all I wanted to be, was to be happy as a male and feel comfortable in my own body.

So what do you tell someone who you love or care for deeply comes to you and says that they would rather die than endure anymore of the emotional torment they feel? These feeling are not a lifestyle choice. These feeling are not a result of a bad diction; they come from birth. Who would choose that kind if persecution if they had the choice.

I am not going to transition; it is not the right choice for me. For the same reasons as Alex chose to retune to being male, and I fear that one day I will not be able to withstand.

Now I ask another question; what about Hermaphrodite (the proper term is Intersex)? Is it considered mutilating their genitals when they chose a sex? Or if the parents chose the sex at birth of the Intersexed child, and the child identifies with the other sex? It is changing their physical body.

Also I want you to consider Androgen insensitivity. You take some one who is genetically male but is borne with complete Androgen insensitivity. They are born looking like a girl; they grow up believing and being happy as a girl. It isn’t until later in life when complications arise that they find out. What where they suppose to be; Boy or Girl? This is just two examples of the gray area around this whole gender thing, and the more you contemplate it the grayer it becomes. Many say that Intersex is another form of transgender.

The lord does not judge us all as a whole. He does not hold everyone to the same standards. He judges us individually. In the address By Elder M. Russell Ballard: Suicide: Some Things We Know, and Some We Do Not he talks by the judgement of Christ.

When he does judge us, I feel he will take all things into consideration: our genetic and chemical makeup, our mental state, our intellectual capacity, the teachings we have received, the traditions of our fathers, our health, and so forth.

We learn in the scriptures that the blood of Christ will atone for the sins of men “who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.” (Mosiah 3:11.)

I want you to learn about us transgendered people before you pass judgment whether it is right or wrong. Go to my Blog - All of Me: The Transgender Woman Inside and read about me, my experiences, and my beliefs. Then follow some of the other blogs that I follow. Transition may not be right for all, but maybe right for some. So I give you the same challenge. Consider what I have said here. A lot of what I say is not modern society talking; it comes from deep personal experience. I have been there in those bad experiences, I have done a lot of things I am not proud of, and I have attempted Suicide. I agree with most of what you are saying. I just don’t agree with how you are saying it. For that reason I have been preaching compassion.

Edited May 26, 2012 by giantCplus

[Vort]

You asked; What if it won't make you happy? This is the very narrow minded and ignorant statement that I have been talking about. The stats contradict this statement you make

I don't understand. "What if it won't make you happy?" is not a statement, ignorant or otherwise. It is a question.

[OnAJourney]

My thanks go to Giant for her responses.

I would pose the question to Funky: "What have I to repent about?"

Admitting to being transgendered is not the same as having surgery to correct the situation. (Historically, only a small percentage of transgender individuals have had surgery to correct (not to mutilate) their genitalia.) Not every transgender person wants or needs surgery. However, the definition of being transgender includes an issue with their genitalia. That is the definition of being transgender.

As I asked previously, where do you draw the line between corrective surgery and genital mutilation? There are many who suffer from malformations of the genitalia that require (normal) surgery. Is that mutilation?

I agree from the vantage point of a common (I hate the term normal, there are no normal people) male, losing one's genitalia is akin to losing one's life. But from the point of view of a transgender individual, losing one's outward projecting genitalia, whether it is between the legs or sitting on the chest wall, is similar to having a troublesome wart removed.

This is a transgender thread. I would not be posting to this thread if I wanted to talk about my marriage or my grandchildren. I like to stay on topic, and would not be here if I wasn't transgender.

No one can change a mind that is closed. And no one can open that mind but the individual. I am not saying that anyone posting recently has a closed mind, but I can see the trenches dug and the battle lines already forming.

[FunkyTown]

My thanks go to Giant for her responses.

I would pose the question to Funky: "What have I to repent about?"

Admitting to being transgendered is not the same as having surgery to correct the situation.

OAJ - You have attributed quite a lot of positions to me that I haven't taken. Please show me where I said you specifically have to repent. I don't know you, OAJ. I have no clue about your life or who you are. You seem to think I have advocated people leaving the board, which I clearly did not. You seem to think I have called you to repentance - And while that's a good idea for everyone as everyone has something to repent about, I did not specifically demand that you repent for anything.

I am willing to discuss this, but (And this is me addressing you very specifically), you need to stop acting like we/me/anyone else has it in for you specifically. Once we can do that, I think the dialogue would be much more fruitful.

[Desertknight]

My thanks go to Giant for her responses.

I would pose the question to Funky: "What have I to repent about?"

Admitting to being transgendered is not the same as having surgery to correct the situation. (Historically, only a small percentage of transgender individuals have had surgery to correct (not to mutilate) their genitalia.) Not every transgender person wants or needs surgery. However, the definition of being transgender includes an issue with their genitalia. That is the definition of being transgender.

As I asked previously, where do you draw the line between corrective surgery and genital mutilation? There are many who suffer from malformations of the genitalia that require (normal) surgery. Is that mutilation?

I agree from the vantage point of a common (I hate the term normal, there are no normal people) male, losing one's genitalia is akin to losing one's life. But from the point of view of a transgender individual, losing one's outward projecting genitalia, whether it is between the legs or sitting on the chest wall, is similar to having a troublesome wart removed.

This is a transgender thread. I would not be posting to this thread if I wanted to talk about my marriage or my grandchildren. I like to stay on topic, and would not be here if I wasn't transgender.

No one can change a mind that is closed. And no one can open that mind but the individual. I am not saying that anyone posting recently has a closed mind, but I can see the trenches dug and the battle lines already forming.

And part of the reason for that is that so many have done what I cautioned giantC about, i.e., buying into what modern society tells you. "Sexual reassignment" surgery does not correct, reassign or change anyone's sex. At the end of that surgery, (And pardon me for being graphic.), the patient does not have the sexual genitalia of the sex desired. They do not create female genitalia for a male patient, for example. They simply mutilate his male genitalia and surgically deform the body to create the illusion of female genitalia. The are still biologically men. Their male organs have been cut away and their body deformed into something that will give the illusion of female genitalia...but it is not. Their chromosomes are male, their physiology is still male, etc. That is the difference that you raise the question over. It is not the same either morally or ethically, in say surgically repairing a cleft palate.

Now, none of that has anything to do with having a closed mind. It has nothing to do with how I "feel" about giantCplus or anyone else who may be transgender. I hate to think of anyone being rejected or unloved. I certainly love them as I am called to treat all with the dignity, respect and love, due all human beings, and for me, that means speaking the truth to them.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Desertknight

[giantCplus]

I don't understand. "What if it won't make you happy?" is not a statement, ignorant or otherwise. It is a question.

Now to define statement: a communication or declaration in speech or writing, setting forth facts, particulars, etc. The statement in this question is: it won't make you happy. Laced thought-out just about everything FunckyTown is trying to say is that “it won’t make you happy”

Now to define Ignorance; the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc. the fact that he made the statement with out checking the statistics on it proves his ignorance.

[annewandering]

The statement was actually "IF it wont make you happy" not it will.

[Vort]

Now to define statement: a communication or declaration in speech or writing, setting forth facts, particulars, etc. The statement in this question is: it won't make you happy. Laced thought-out just about everything FunckyTown is trying to say is that “it won’t make you happy”

Now to define Ignorance; the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc. the fact that he made the statement with out checking the statistics on it proves his ignorance.

Perhaps you can also define "question". You wrote:

"You asked; What if it won't make you happy? This is the very narrow minded and ignorant statement that I have been talking about."

Sorry if I'm being dense, but the question you say he asked (your word) is, as you say, a question, not a statement.

[Hala401]

Thank you annewandering. I now see the error in some of the wording I have used. Some of my statement where poorly thought out, just as the one you pointed out. I got so caught up in the heat of the discussion that I fell into the very trap I was trying to avoid. Let me clarify what I was trying to say in my Post to FunckyTown.

I am trying to show that there are many post here, like the one I uses, that do not fully follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. These post are the ones OnAJourney are referring to.

I simply used the teaching of Christ that pertained to my point. Maybe using the church as a whole was the wrong choice of words. Maybe I should have worded it as, “The truth is that Christ taught of love, acceptance, fellowship and above all he asked us all to come follow Him (among other things).”

Also when I say acceptance I mean acceptance as in not passing judgment on your fellow men, not that we have to accept the man and his sin.

I can't remain silent any longer.

I knew something was wrong very early in life, but since my anatomy seemed to match that of what I was not, I was forced to live much of my life as I was not. Believe me, this is a heartbreaking journey, that few understand. I did not pass well as who some believed me to be and fate and my heart eventually guided me to try to be true to myself. This meant rejection by all my loved ones, my church, my job ... In short in just a few weeks I lost everything and soon I was on the path toward living on the streets.

(I'm leaving a lot of detail out that is not pertinent to the discussion)

Heavenly Father had mercy on me, so I did not end up sleeping on the sidewalk. My outside now matches my inside and when they were doing that there were some surprises.

Disgusted with churches and their plastic Jesus, I became Muslim to worship God. Still, after almost 7 years, things were falling apart for me on Islam, and one day I wound up sitting with Sister Missionaries in Kirtland.

I thought I was there to tour a historical site, to understand 1830's history more, and I adamantly told them that I was sure that their church was very nice, but there was not the slightest chance that their church would ever accept me. I meant it but they seemed to take that as a challenge. While to look at me, no one knows of my past, I knew of it and knew that once people found out, I would be OUT!

Since 2004 I'd been fighting off suicidal thoughts and was hospitalized several times. The result of all that hospital care was that I knew when the darkness overtook me, I needed to get busy right away doing the things that they taught me and eventually the feelings left me.

I'd taken up writing, community service, and anything that would destract me.

To my total amazement, I found my self wanting to become a church member, but deeply fearing that it could never happen. Such was the love of the Sister Missionaries, and their constant reassurance, that I became committed to that path.

Part of the interview path was to meet with two different men. One of them asked if I would submit to a medical test, and I told him that I was saving money for said test. He then said that he would pick up the cost of the test, and it was not cheap.

The results showed that I am XY (Male), but that the Y chromosome is so damaged that it barely functions at all. This is called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Most don't know that when we are conceived all of us are female. Then relatively early in the pregnancy, something happens that makes that female continue to develop but as a Male. But with the damaged Y chromosome, it did not work well at all with me. (This is called an Inter-sexed condition).

You can't imagine the hell the Inter-sexed go through. To those who imagine that we are in sin, please devote your energy to making sure that we are never born as the misunderstanding we encounter surely makes our lives not worth living.

My life as an LDS church member has been the best time of my life, and not a single person has been unkind to me. I shudder to thing what it will be like if certain persons are ever aware of my past. Even now I can imagine them coming at me with their burning torches and ropes to hang me with.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Hala401
spelling

[annewandering]

I think that is one of the hardest things to deal with, Hala. Well you got/getting your life in order, both spiritually and physically. :) You really are lucky that someone didnt make your choices for you, in ways that cant easily be fixed. Perhaps by being honest and open you have helped others to deal and to understand that things are not always so simple.

[Hala401]

I think that is one of the hardest things to deal with, Hala. Well you got/getting your life in order, both spiritually and physically. :) You really are lucky that someone didnt make your choices for you, in ways that cant easily be fixed. Perhaps by being honest and open you have helped others to deal and to understand that things are not always so simple.

Oh, my stepfather made choices for me, threatening to kill me several times. Other times I thought he would do. The cost is unimaginably high and painful beyond description. ONLY the members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints have made life bearable; even pleasant.

[annewandering]

Honestly, I was only referring to physical surgery kind of things. I have no doubt people can be very cruel to anyone different.

[Sicily510]

Hi GaySaint,

I don't know if you will come upon my comment and if you do I would like to thank you for sharing your concerns about these type of things. I honestly have no position to give you advice or suggestions because I myself am not perfect. I know one thing though is that when I have a brother or sister in concern about progressing spiritually like myself, I would seek through them and trust sometimes their answers aren't to my satisfaction. :) Honestly, I googled about this and asked heavenly father in my mind how could I help another who may be in need of some spiritual nourishment. I figured we are all entitled to strengthening ourselves because in the end it's our voluntary choice whether we want to acknowledge ourself, be willing to change for the good (our heavenly father) and move forward. I found a lovely excerpt and I don' t know your standing as far as religiously, but here is something I would love to share. I personally can attest that I relate to this myself in so many ways, and it has helped enlighten me. :)

God Loveth His Children

You are a son or daughter of God, and our hearts reach out to you in warmth and affection. Notwithstanding your present same-gender attractions, you can be happy during this life, lead a morally clean life, perform meaningful service in the Church, enjoy full fellowship with your fellow Saints, and ultimately receive all the blessings of eternal life.

The Book of Mormon prophet Nephi voiced feelings we all have when he acknowledged that he did not “know the meaning of all things.” But he testified, “I know that [God] loveth his children” (1 Nephi 11:17). God does indeed love all His children. Many questions, however, including some related to same-gender attractions, must await a future answer, even in the next life. But God has revealed simple, unchanging truths to guide us. He loves all His children, and because He loves you, you can trust Him.

Your Identity and Potential

You are a precious son or daughter of God. He not only knows your name; He knows you. His love for you is individual. You lived in His presence before you were born on this earth. You cannot remember your premortal relationship with Him, but He does. Although His children may sometimes do things that disappoint Him, He will always love them.

When you know who you are and are comfortable in the assurance that God loves you, you can more easily understand what He wants for you. He wants you to have all of the blessings of eternal life. Eternal life means much more than long or unending life. To obtain eternal life means to become like Heavenly Father, to live like Him, and to receive a fulness of joy. You can receive eternal life if you abide by the same laws as God and do the things He does.

The Plan of Happiness

God has provided the plan of salvation, or plan of happiness, to help you receive the blessings of eternal life. This plan is set forth in the scriptures; men and women cannot rewrite it to accommodate their desires. God alone gives the reward of eternal life. Some of the greatest blessings promised by the plan, including eternal life, are not intended for immediate enjoyment. Eternity is long, and mortality is short. As you base your decisions on eternal principles rather than on earthly challenges or desires, you can have “peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come” (D&C 59:23).

These blessings are based on obedience to eternal principles. The importance of families is one of these principles. Heaven is organized by families, which require a man and a woman who together exercise their creative powers within the bounds the Lord has set. Same-gender relationships are inconsistent with this plan. Without both a husband and a wife there would be no eternal family and no opportunity to become like Heavenly Father.

In some circumstances a person defers marriage because he or she is not presently attracted to a member of the opposite gender. While many Latter-day Saints, through individual effort, the exercise of faith, and reliance upon the enabling power of the Atonement, overcome same-gender attraction in mortality, others may not be free of this challenge in this life. However, the perfect plan of our Father in Heaven makes provision for individuals who seek to keep His commandments but who, through no fault of their own, do not have an eternal marriage in mortal life. As we follow Heavenly Father’s plan, our bodies, feelings, and desires will be perfected in the next life so that every one of God’s children may find joy in a family consisting of a husband, a wife, and children.

Same-gender attractions include deep emotional, social, and physical feelings. All of Heavenly Father’s children desire to love and be loved, including many adults who, for a variety of reasons, remain single. God assures His children, including those currently attracted to persons of the same gender, that their righteous desires will eventually be fully satisfied in God’s own way and according to His timing.

Self-Mastery

In order to qualify for the blessings of our Heavenly Father’s plan, each of us was sent to this earth for a period of probation, during which we face a variety of temptations and challenges. Some of these challenges are associated with our physical bodies. Because we did not possess physical bodies before this life, we must learn to live with their inadequacies and interpret their signals, urges, and needs. And we must often learn to say “no.” This self-mastery of the physical body is very important because we will possess these bodies, in perfected form, in the next life.

Our bodies are sacred; they are sometimes referred to in the scriptures as “temples of God.” Many people with same-gender attraction respect the sacredness of their bodies and the standards God has set—that sexuality be expressed “only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife” (“The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 102). The lives of these individuals are pleasing to our Father in Heaven. Some, however, cross this boundary and indulge in immoral conduct. The desire for physical gratification does not authorize immorality by anyone.

True happiness depends on more than the expression of physical urges. These urges diminish as more fundamental emotional needs are met—such as the need to interact with and serve others. True happiness comes from self-control, self-respect, and positive direction in life. It comes from a testimony of true doctrine—including who you are and who you may become—and from living according to God’s plan of happiness.

Many people with same-gender attractions have strong testimonies of the gospel and, therefore, do not act on those attractions. Attractions alone do not make you unworthy. If you avoid immoral thoughts and actions, you have not transgressed even if you feel such an attraction. The First Presidency stated, “There is a distinction between immoral thoughts and feelings and participating in either immoral heterosexual or any homosexual behavior” (letter, Nov. 14, 1991).

This principle applies to all of God’s children, for He has declared that all sexual relations outside of marriage are unacceptable. Everyone has temptations, but one of the purposes of mortality is to learn to overcome them. President David O. McKay beautifully defined spirituality as “the consciousness of victory over self” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1969, 8). These temptations, which are generally uninvited, may be powerful, but they are never so strong as to deprive us of our freedom of choice. Elder Dallin H. Oaks said, “All of us have some feelings we did not choose, but the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us that we still have the power to resist and reform our feelings (as needed) and to assure that they do not lead us to entertain inappropriate thoughts or to engage in sinful behavior” (“Same-Gender Attraction,” Ensign, Oct. 1995, 9). Improper thoughts diminish if you replace them immediately with uplifting, constructive thoughts.

In your quest for self-mastery, remember the importance of living righteously in private as well as in public. President Gordon B. Hinckley urged: “Our behavior in public must be above reproach. Our behavior in private is even more important. It must clear the standard set by the Lord. We cannot indulge in sin, let alone try to cover our sins” (“Personal Worthiness to Exercise the Priesthood,” Ensign, May 2002, 52).

If you have violated God’s commandments or your covenants, you can repent. Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ has paid the price for your sins, and God will forgive you. After you have thoroughly and sincerely repented, you need not dwell on past transgressions. The Lord’s command to “forgive all men” includes the requirement to forgive yourself (see D&C 64:10).

An understanding of eternal truths is a powerful motivation for righteous behavior. You are best served by concentrating on the things you can presently understand and control, not wasting energy or enlarging frustration by worrying about that which God has not yet fully revealed. Focus on living the simple truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Same-gender inclinations may be very powerful, but through faith in the Atonement you can receive the power to resist all improper conduct, keeping your life free from sin.

Filling Your Life with Goodness

Someone wisely said that if we plant a garden with good seed, there will not be so much need of the hoe. Likewise, if we fill our lives with the spiritual nourishment God has provided, we can more easily gain control over inclinations and become the masters of ourselves. This means creating a daily positive environment in which the Spirit can flourish and avoiding environments of temptation, where the Spirit is offended. A positive environment includes consistent private and public worship, church attendance, fasting, temple attendance, service, scripture reading, prayer, association with good friends, and exposure to uplifting literature and music. As you surround yourself with these things, your garden will bear good fruit and be a joy to you and to your Father in Heaven. Happiness is harvested from the cultivation of worthwhile things, not just the suppression of that which offends God.

One very important way to fill your spiritual garden with good seed is to participate actively in the Church. Even though same-gender attractions may continue and may foster unresolved tensions, you will be strengthened by service in the Church and by interaction with other Church members who share beliefs and have made the same covenants you have made. Partaking of the sacrament, singing the hymns of Zion, and listening to uplifting talks all contribute to your spiritual growth. Neglecting these positive influences and withdrawing from the Church because of discouragement, perceived rejection, or a sense that you do not belong can only hurt your spirituality and your desire to control your actions.

Some people with same-gender attraction have felt rejected because members of the Church did not always show love. No member of the Church should ever be intolerant. As you show love and kindness to others, you give them an opportunity to change their attitudes and follow Christ more fully.

In addition to filling your garden with positive influences, you must also avoid any influence that can harm your spirituality. One of these adverse influences is obsession with or concentration on same-gender thoughts and feelings. It is not helpful to flaunt homosexual tendencies or make them the subject of unnecessary observation or discussion. It is better to choose as friends those who do not publicly display their homosexual feelings. The careful selection of friends and mentors who lead constructive, righteous lives is one of the most important steps to being productive and virtuous. Association with those of the same gender is natural and desirable, so long as you set wise boundaries to avoid improper and unhealthy emotional dependency, which may eventually result in physical and sexual intimacy. There is moral risk in having so close a relationship with one friend of the same gender that it may lead to vices the Lord has condemned. Our most important relationships are with our own families because our ties to them can be eternal.

Despair is another adverse influence. It often results from a lack of understanding and trust in God’s continuing love as made available through the power of the Atonement. You can find hope in the fact that every blessing contemplated by Heavenly Father’s plan of happiness remains available for each of His children. Despair and doubt may lead to withdrawal, fault-finding, and impatience that all answers and resolutions for life’s problems are not immediately forthcoming. The Spirit of God brings good cheer and happiness. Trust the Lord. Do not blame anyone—not yourself, not your parents, not God—for problems not fully understood in this life.

Pornography, in all its subtle and damaging forms, is an especially adverse, dangerous, and addictive influence. The images to which your mind is exposed, even for a brief moment, are recorded and will present themselves in a moment of weakness to break down your resolve. Righteous action results from purity of thought, which is encouraged by uplifting literature, conversation, music, and other media.

Some people have been abused during the early years of life or have engaged in sexual experimentation at a young age. If this has happened to you, please understand that abuse by others or youthful experiences should not create a present sense of guilt, unworthiness, or rejection by God or His Church. Innocent mischief early in life does not predispose a youth toward same-gender attraction as an adult.

You will be most successful in controlling your life as you constantly nourish your spirit. Avoiding food for prolonged periods, followed by excessively large meals, will not maintain physical health. Likewise, feeding your spirit sporadically, even in large proportions, will not yield the same result as constantly, daily nourishing your spirit.

“Go Forward”

President Gordon B. Hinckley has promised that those with same-gender attraction who do not express these inclinations may “go forward as do all other members of the Church” (“What Are People Asking about Us?” Ensign, Nov. 1998, 71).

If you live by the standards God has set and fill your days with worthwhile things, your life will be full of hope and you may expect opportunities for meaningful service, social inclusion, and spiritual growth in this life.

It is helpful to visit with your bishop and other priesthood leaders who hold the keys of inspired counsel for the members of your local Church unit. If you approach them humbly and honestly, they will extend themselves in compassion and love as they counsel with you. The First Presidency stated: “We encourage Church leaders and members to reach out with love and understanding to those struggling with these issues. Many will respond to Christlike love and inspired counsel” (letter, Nov. 14, 1991). It is also often helpful to seek guidance from professional counselors who are experienced in working with same-gender attraction issues and whose counsel is consistent with gospel teachings.

As you seek the help of others, be careful not to become dependent on them alone for your spiritual strength. Your bishop and other leaders can counsel you and teach the true principles of God’s plan for His children, but ultimately the sustained strength you need must come from the Lord as you submit to the influence of the Holy Ghost and exercise faith in Jesus Christ.

Only then will there be a lasting resolve and sufficient strength to abstain from conduct and thoughts displeasing to God.

A number of Latter-day Saints with same-gender attraction are moving forward with their lives by carefully adhering to gospel standards, staying close to the Lord, and obtaining ecclesiastical and professional help when needed. Their lives are rich and satisfying, and they can be assured that all the blessings of eternal life will ultimately be theirs.

The teachings of the gospel differ greatly from the ways and teachings of the world on many subjects, including moral behavior. These differences result from our understanding of the gift of eternal life that Heavenly Father has prepared for us and the conditions necessary to receive it. No one is, or ever could be, excluded from the circle of God’s love or the extended arms of His Church, for we are all His beloved sons and daughters. As President Hinckley said: “Our hearts reach out to those who struggle with feelings of affinity for the same gender. We remember you before the Lord, we sympathize with you, we regard you as our brothers and sisters” (“Stand Strong against the Wiles of the World,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 99).

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English approval: 4/07

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here is a direct link:

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - God Loveth His Children

[Soulsearcher]

Gay Saint left the site due to frustrations over attitudes of some members of this forum and sadly i don't think he'll ever be back.

[Hala401]

Of all people, I should understand his frustration.

Still, I am blessed with little or no desire at my own choosing. Jesus Christ said, "If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out". I believe that literally and don't bother to argue with me, because you won't change my mind.

At the mercy of the church, I found out things about myself that explain many things to me, and I feel fortunate that my problem was solved so easily. Still, there are highly placed members who would give me only half a membership, as if I should be grateful for that. Petulantly, I want to ask them, "Does that then mean I am only to pay half a tithe?" It would hurt less if I was tied to a pylon and beaten for the sins that THEY imagine, and I have not done.

I could walk away from the church; become "inactive". But the kindness of Heavenly Father and the other members constrain me, and I am a captive of love. I want to lash out at times but my pained words die in my throat, unspoken.

It is my fervent prayer that one day we will know the cause of non-reproductive sexual unions, and know that it is genetic, not the product of some dark inner desire. And if we have that knowledge, then my next prayer would be to cure it, or murder in the womb those who would be cursed with it.

Much of my life I wished that I had remained unborn, and it was only by exposure to those fervently stubborn followers of our church that those feelings finally stopped tormenting me.

I can understand his foolish vain hope to gain understanding, but there are some who never will and I leave them to face the consequences.

[Sicily510]

Of all people, I should understand his frustration.

Still, I am blessed with little or no desire at my own choosing. Jesus Christ said, "If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out". I believe that literally and don't bother to argue with me, because you won't change my mind.

At the mercy of the church, I found out things about myself that explain many things to me, and I feel fortunate that my problem was solved so easily. Still, there are highly placed members who would give me only half a membership, as if I should be grateful for that. Petulantly, I want to ask them, "Does that then mean I am only to pay half a tithe?" It would hurt less if I was tied to a pylon and beaten for the sins that THEY imagine, and I have not done.

I could walk away from the church; become "inactive". But the kindness of Heavenly Father and the other members constrain me, and I am a captive of love. I want to lash out at times but my pained words die in my throat, unspoken.

It is my fervent prayer that one day we will know the cause of non-reproductive sexual unions, and know that it is genetic, not the product of some dark inner desire. And if we have that knowledge, then my next prayer would be to cure it, or murder in the womb those who would be cursed with it.

Much of my life I wished that I had remained unborn, and it was only by exposure to those fervently stubborn followers of our church that those feelings finally stopped tormenting me.

I can understand his foolish vain hope to gain understanding, but there are some who never will and I leave them to face the consequences.

It is my fervent prayer that one day we will know the cause of non-reproductive sexual unions, and know that it is genetic, not the product of some dark inner desire.

Hi Hala401,

this is a matter that doesn't apply to me, but I just can't help but feel the need to help others. As taught as a member of the Church Of Jesus Christ Of These Latter-days we must understand and apply the "Word of Wisdom". The word of wisdom is for our physical and spiritual benefit.

What is the Word of Wisdom?

The Word of Wisdom is a law of health revealed by the Lord for the physical and spiritual benefit of His children. On February 27, 1833, as recorded in section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord revealed which foods are good for us to eat and which substances are not good for the human body. He also promised health, protection, knowledge, and wisdom to those who obey the Word of Wisdom.

“One keeps the Word of Wisdom knowing that obedience will not only bring freedom from addiction, but it will also add blessings of wisdom and treasures of knowledge.”

—Russell M. Nelson

“Face the Future with Faith,” Ensign, May 2011, 35

Now, we are all gods children and it's obvious (if you're a member of the church) that he has created a place that we may dwell with him in happiness. To identify that we are his children we must be able to acknowledge and accept his teachings of how we came about on earth.

The Fall

Introduction

Three years before Adam’s death, his righteous posterity gathered at Adam-ondi-Ahman to receive his blessing. “And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel” ( D&C 107:54 ). It is no wonder, then, that we seek to understand Adam’s role in the Fall and the nature of the consequences that came from eating the forbidden fruit. If we correctly understand the role of Adam and Eve, we will realize that those who have labeled them sinners responsible for the universal depravity of the human family are misguided. The truth is that Adam and Eve opened the door for us to come into mortality, a step essential to our eternal progress.

Doctrinal Outline

A. Conditions in the Garden of Eden were different from those of mortality.

1. Before the Fall the earth and all things upon it existed in a spiritual state (see 2 Nephi 2:22 ; Moses 3:5–7 ).

2. Adam and Eve were in the presence of God in the Garden of Eden (see Moses 4:14 ; Genesis 3:8 ).

3. Adam and Eve would have had no children had they continued to live in the Garden of Eden (see 2 Nephi 2:23 ; Moses 5:11 ).

4. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence, not understanding good and evil and having neither joy nor misery (see 2 Nephi 2:23 ; Moses 5:11 ).

B. Adam and Eve brought about the Fall by their own choice.

1. Adam and Eve were commanded not to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (see Genesis 2:15–17 ; Moses 3:15–17 ; Abraham 5:11–13 ).

2. Eve was beguiled by Satan and partook of the fruit (see Genesis 3:1–6 ; Moses 4:5–12 ; 1 Timothy 2:14 ).

3. Eve gave the fruit to Adam, and he partook (see Genesis 3:6 ; Moses 4:12 ).

4. After Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, the Lord told them the conditions of mortality that would confront them (see Genesis 3:16–19 ; Moses 4:22–25 ).

C. The Fall brought about significant changes for Adam and Eve’s posterity.

1. The Lord placed cherubim and a flaming sword to guard the tree of life and to prevent Adam and Eve from partaking of it (see Genesis 3:24 ; Moses 4:31 ; Alma 12:21–23 ; 42:2–4 ).

2. Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden of Eden (see Genesis 3:24 ; Moses 4:31 ).

3. After the Fall Adam, Eve, and all their posterity became subject to physical death (see Moses 6:48 ; Alma 12:22–24 ; 1 Corinthians 15:21–22 ).

4. Adam and Eve were required to support themselves by their own labors (see Genesis 3:19 ; Moses 4:25 ; 5:1 ).

5. Adam and his family were shut out of God’s presence, thereby suffering a spiritual death (see Alma 42:6–7, 9 ; D&C 29:40–41 ; Moses 5:4 ; 6:49 ).

6. Adam and Eve began to have children (see Moses 4:22 ; 5:2–3, 11 ; Genesis 3:16 ).

7. Pain and sorrow were introduced as part of mortality (see Genesis 3:16 ; Moses 6:48 ).

8. Fallen man became carnal, sensual, and devilish (see Alma 41:11 ; Ether 3:2 ; D&C 20:20 ).

9. By being exposed to evil, Adam and Eve could recognize and embrace good (see Moses 5:10–11 ; 2 Nephi 2:11 ).

D. The Fall was a purposeful step in God’s plan of salvation.

1. For our agency to function, it was necessary that Satan be allowed to tempt us (see D&C 29:39–40 ).

2. Adam’s fall gave him and his posterity the opportunity to obtain the joy that comes from choosing good over evil (see 2 Nephi 2:25–27 ; Moses 5:10–11 ).

3. If Adam and Eve had not transgressed, they would have lived forever in innocence, without children, thereby frustrating God’s plan of salvation (see 2 Nephi 2:22–24 ; Moses 5:10–11 ).

4. Death is a necessary part of God’s plan (see 2 Nephi 9:6 ; Alma 42:6–8 ).

E. In this life we are subject to enticements of the flesh and the Spirit.

1. The flesh subjects us to enticements toward physical gratification (see Romans 8:5–8 ; 2 Nephi 2:29 ).

2. Only by yielding to the enticings of the Spirit can we overcome the inclinations of the flesh (see Mosiah 3:19 ).

continues....

[Sicily510]

Supporting Statements

A. Conditions in the Garden of Eden were different from those of mortality.

■ “Adam had a spiritual body until mortality came upon him through the violation of the law under which he was living, but he also had a physical body of flesh and bones.

“. . . Now what is a spiritual body? It is one that is quickened by spirit and not by blood. . . .

“. . . When Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all the other creations” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:76–77).

■ “He [Adam] had knowledge, of course. He could speak. He could converse. There were many things he could be taught and was taught; but under the conditions in which he was living at that time it was impossible for him to visualize or understand the power of good and evil. He did not know what pain was. He did not know what sorrow was; and a thousand other things that have come to us in this life that Adam did not know in the Garden of Eden and could not understand and would not have known had he remained there” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:107–8).

B. Adam and Eve brought about the Fall by their own choice.

■ “I’m very, very grateful that in the Book of Mormon, and I think elsewhere in our scriptures, the fall of Adam has not been called a sin. It wasn’t a sin. . . . What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do; and I hate to hear anybody call it a sin, for it wasn’t a sin. Did Adam sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit? I say to you, no, he did not! Now, let me refer to what was written in the book of Moses in regard to the command God gave to Adam. [ Moses 3:16–17 .]

“Now this is the way I interpret that: The Lord said to Adam, here is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you want to stay here, then you cannot eat of that fruit. If you want to stay here, then I forbid you to eat it. But you may act for yourself, and you may eat of it if you want to. And if you eat it, you will die.

“I see a great difference between transgressing the law and committing a sin” (Joseph Fielding Smith, “Fall—Atonement—Resurrection—Sacrament,” in Charge to Religious Educators, 124).

■ “The devil in tempting Eve told a truth when he said unto her that when she should eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they should become as Gods. He told the truth in telling that, but he accompanied it with a lie as he always does. He never tells the complete truth. He said that they should not die. The Father had said that they should die. The devil had to tell a lie in order to accomplish his purposes; but there was some truth in his statement. Their eyes were opened. They had a knowledge of good and evil just as the Gods have” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, 1:16).

■ “Adam and Eve were chosen to come here as the primal parents of humanity. And they were placed in the Garden of Eden where there was no death and we read in the scriptures that they could have lived in that Garden forever, but not under the most favorable circumstances. For there, although they were in the presence of God, they were deprived of certain knowledge and understanding in a condition where they could not understand clearly things that were necessary for them to know. Therefore, it became essential to their salvation and to ours that their nature should be changed. The only way it could be changed was by the violation of the law under which they were at that time. Mortality could not come without violation of that law and mortality was essential, a step towards our exaltation. Therefore, Adam partook of the forbidden fruit, forbidden in a rather peculiar manner for it is the only place in all the history where we read that the Lord forbade something and yet said, ‘Nevertheless thou mayest choose for thyself.’ He never said that of any sin. I do not look upon Adam’s fall as a sin, although it was a transgression of the law. It had to be. And Adam came under a different law. The temporal law. And he became subject to death. The partaking of that fruit created blood in his body and that blood became the life-giving influence of mortality” (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Atonement of Jesus Christ, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year [25 Jan. 1955], 2).

■ “The adversary, Lucifer, through the serpent, beguiled Eve and deceived her and induced her to eat of the forbidden fruit.

“It was not so with Adam. . . . He knew that unless he did partake there would be an eternal separation between him and the partner that God had given to him, so he transgressed the law. . . . Because had he not partaken of the fruit, they would have been eternally separated” (Cannon, Gospel Truth, 1:24).

■ “Adam voluntarily, and with full knowledge of the consequences, partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that men might be. . . . For his service we owe Adam an immeasurable debt of gratitude” (Marion G. Romney, The Message of Seminary and Institute Teachers [address to seminary and institute employees, 13 July 1966], 5).

C. The Fall brought about significant changes for Adam and Eve’s posterity.

■ “When Adam, our first parent, partook of the forbidden fruit, transgressed the law of God, and became subject unto Satan, he was banished from the presence of God, and was thrust out into outer spiritual darkness. This was the first death. Yet living, he was dead—dead to God, dead to light and truth, dead spiritually; cast out from the presence of God; communication between the Father and the Son was cut off. He was as absolutely thrust out from the presence of God as was Satan and the hosts that followed him. That was spiritual death. But the Lord said that he would not suffer Adam nor his posterity to come to the temporal death until they should have the means by which they might be redeemed from the first death, which is spiritual” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 432).

■ “Not subject to death when he [Adam] was placed upon the earth, there had to come a change in his body through the partaking of this element—whatever you want to call it, fruit—that brought blood into his body; and blood became the life of the body instead of spirit. And blood has in it the seeds of death, some mortal element. Mortality was created through the eating of the forbidden fruit” (Smith, “Fall—Atonement—Resurrection—Sacrament,” 125).

■ “When Adam came into this world, he was not subject to death. He was immortal. He could have lived forever. Had he remained in the Garden of Eden and not transgressed the law that had been given to him, he and Eve would have been there yet. . . .

“. . . Adam had not passed through a resurrection when he was in the Garden of Eden, and having not passed through a resurrection, spirit and body could be separated by the violation of the law. And the Lord provided the law so it could happen, because the mortal estate in which we find ourselves is absolutely necessary to our exaltation” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:91).

■ “The ‘natural man’ is the ‘earthy man’ who has allowed rude animal passions to overshadow his spiritual inclinations” (Spencer W. Kimball, in Conference Report, Oct. 1974, 161; or Ensign, Nov. 1974, 112).

■ “This being ‘conceived in sin’ [ Moses 6:55 ], as I understand it, is only that they are in the midst of sin. They come into the world where sin is prevalent, and it will enter into their hearts, but it will lead them ‘to taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.’” (George Q. Morris, in Conference Report, Apr. 1958, 38).

D. The Fall was a purposeful step in God’s plan of salvation.

■ “We came into this world to die. That was understood before we came here. It is part of the plan, all discussed and arranged long before men were placed upon the earth. When Adam was sent into this world, it was with the understanding that he would violate a law, transgress a law, in order to bring to pass this mortal condition which we find ourselves in today” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:66).

■ “Did they [Adam and Eve] come out in direct opposition to God and to his government? No. But they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. The Lord knew they would do this, and he had designed that they should” (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, 103).

■ “The first step in salvation of man is the laws of eternal and self-existent principles. Spirits are eternal. At the first organization in heaven we were all present, and saw the Savior chosen and appointed and the plan of salvation made, and we sanctioned it” (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 181).

■ “When Adam was driven out of the Garden of Eden, the Lord passed a sentence upon him. Some people have looked upon that sentence as being a dreadful thing. It was not; it was a blessing. . . .

“In order for mankind to obtain salvation and exaltation it is necessary for them to obtain bodies in this world, and pass through the experiences and schooling that are found only in mortality. . . .

“The fall of man came as a blessing in disguise, and was the means of furthering the purposes of the Lord in the progress of man, rather than a means of hindering them” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:113–14).

■ “If we cannot be good, except as we resist and overcome evil, then evil must be present to be resisted.

“So this earth life is set up according to true principles, and these conditions that followed the transgression [of Adam] were not, in the usual sense, penalties that were inflicted upon us. All these . . . that seem to be sad inflictions of punishment, sorrow, and trouble are in the end not that. They are blessings. We have attained a knowledge of good and evil, the power to prize the sweet, to become agents unto ourselves, the power to obtain redemption and eternal life. These things had their origin in this transgression. The Lord has set the earth up so we have to labor if we are going to live, which preserves us from the curse of idleness and indolence; and though the Lord condemns us to death—mortal death—it is one of the greatest blessings that comes to us here because it is the doorway to immortality, and we can never attain immortality without dying.

“So these are all real blessings. We come to the earth with all these conditions arranged as they are so that we have to struggle constantly against evil, struggle to preserve our lives, struggle for everything of true value—that is the thing for us to understand—this is the course of life that is most desirable, and for our good. We have no need to find fault with these conditions. The Lord has ordained them all for our welfare and happiness” (Morris, in Conference Report, Apr. 1958, 39).

E. In this life we are subject to enticements of the flesh and the Spirit.

■ “Man is a spiritual being, a soul, and at some period of his life everyone is possessed with an irresistible desire to know his relationship to the infinite. He realizes that he is not just a physical object that is to be tossed for a short time from bank to bank, only to be submerged finally in the everflowing stream of life. There is something within him which urges him to rise above himself, to control his environment, to master the body and all things physical and live in a higher and more beautiful world” (David O. McKay, in Conference Report, Oct. 1928, 37).

■ “Man has a dual nature; one, related to the earthly or animal life; the other, akin to the divine. Whether a man remains satisfied within what we designate the animal world, satisfied with what the animal world will give him, yielding without effort to the whim of his appetites and passions and slipping farther and farther into the realm of indulgence, or whether, through self-mastery, he rises toward intellectual, moral, and spiritual enjoyments depends upon the kind of choice he makes every day, nay, every hour of his life” (David O. McKay, Gospel Ideals, 347–48).

Our heavenly father ask for us to rise ourselves above the worldy things (by heeding to his laws and ordinances), for he is above all. He's giving us the chance to choose (that free agency, freedom of choice)whether we want to be like him (and with him) or be far from him, and it all comes down to our volunteering will. I'm sure you can witness by your own eyes his grace and mercy amongst us, because we are prone to sin ever since the fruit of knowledge was bitten. With the love that our Heavenly father has for us he sent his only begotten son Jesus Christ, our savior, our king. His examples should hold witness to the glory of our father when he resurrected (now that's something you also must believe...that you will be resurrected if you follow him). The more we are able to understand our father in heaven the more things makes sense, why there was war in heaven.

War in Heaven

War in Heaven. This term arises out of Rev. 12:7 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth. The issues involved such things as agency, how to gain salvation, and who should be the Redeemer. The war broke out because one-third of the spirits refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the Savior. Such a refusal was a rebellion against the Father’s plan of redemption. It was evident that if given agency, some persons would fall short of complete salvation; Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who passed through mortality, without regard to individual preference, agency, or voluntary dedication (see Isa. 14:12–20; Luke 10:18; Rev. 12:4–13; D&C 29:36–38; Moses 4:1–4). The spirits who thus rebelled and persisted were thrust out of heaven and cast down to the earth without mortal bodies, “and thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29:37; see also Rev. 12:9; Abr. 3:24–28).

The warfare is continued in mortality in the conflict between right and wrong, between the gospel and false principles, etc. The same contestants and the same issues are doing battle, and the same salvation is at stake.

Although one-third of the spirits became devils, the remaining two-thirds were not all equally valiant, there being every degree of devotion to Christ and the Father among them. The most diligent were chosen to be rulers in the kingdom (Abr. 3:22–23). The nature of the conflict, however, is such that there could be no neutrals, then or now (Matt. 12:30; 1 Ne. 14:10; Alma 5:38–40).

We must wear our spiritual armors to protect us from inclinations, desires, and weaknesses. And you think that those who possessed by the demons are protecting themselves? Some are willing to be possessed.... Indulging in there free agency!

“Choose Ye This Day”

“Choose you this day whom ye will serve: … but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Josh. 24:15.)

[Sicily510]

Supporting Statements

A. Conditions in the Garden of Eden were different from those of mortality.

■ “Adam had a spiritual body until mortality came upon him through the violation of the law under which he was living, but he also had a physical body of flesh and bones.

“. . . Now what is a spiritual body? It is one that is quickened by spirit and not by blood. . . .

“. . . When Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all the other creations” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:76–77).

■ “He [Adam] had knowledge, of course. He could speak. He could converse. There were many things he could be taught and was taught; but under the conditions in which he was living at that time it was impossible for him to visualize or understand the power of good and evil. He did not know what pain was. He did not know what sorrow was; and a thousand other things that have come to us in this life that Adam did not know in the Garden of Eden and could not understand and would not have known had he remained there” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:107–8).

B. Adam and Eve brought about the Fall by their own choice.

■ “I’m very, very grateful that in the Book of Mormon, and I think elsewhere in our scriptures, the fall of Adam has not been called a sin. It wasn’t a sin. . . . What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do; and I hate to hear anybody call it a sin, for it wasn’t a sin. Did Adam sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit? I say to you, no, he did not! Now, let me refer to what was written in the book of Moses in regard to the command God gave to Adam. [ Moses 3:16–17 .]

“Now this is the way I interpret that: The Lord said to Adam, here is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you want to stay here, then you cannot eat of that fruit. If you want to stay here, then I forbid you to eat it. But you may act for yourself, and you may eat of it if you want to. And if you eat it, you will die.

“I see a great difference between transgressing the law and committing a sin” (Joseph Fielding Smith, “Fall—Atonement—Resurrection—Sacrament,” in Charge to Religious Educators, 124).

■ “The devil in tempting Eve told a truth when he said unto her that when she should eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they should become as Gods. He told the truth in telling that, but he accompanied it with a lie as he always does. He never tells the complete truth. He said that they should not die. The Father had said that they should die. The devil had to tell a lie in order to accomplish his purposes; but there was some truth in his statement. Their eyes were opened. They had a knowledge of good and evil just as the Gods have” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, 1:16).

■ “Adam and Eve were chosen to come here as the primal parents of humanity. And they were placed in the Garden of Eden where there was no death and we read in the scriptures that they could have lived in that Garden forever, but not under the most favorable circumstances. For there, although they were in the presence of God, they were deprived of certain knowledge and understanding in a condition where they could not understand clearly things that were necessary for them to know. Therefore, it became essential to their salvation and to ours that their nature should be changed. The only way it could be changed was by the violation of the law under which they were at that time. Mortality could not come without violation of that law and mortality was essential, a step towards our exaltation. Therefore, Adam partook of the forbidden fruit, forbidden in a rather peculiar manner for it is the only place in all the history where we read that the Lord forbade something and yet said, ‘Nevertheless thou mayest choose for thyself.’ He never said that of any sin. I do not look upon Adam’s fall as a sin, although it was a transgression of the law. It had to be. And Adam came under a different law. The temporal law. And he became subject to death. The partaking of that fruit created blood in his body and that blood became the life-giving influence of mortality” (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Atonement of Jesus Christ, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year [25 Jan. 1955], 2).

■ “The adversary, Lucifer, through the serpent, beguiled Eve and deceived her and induced her to eat of the forbidden fruit.

“It was not so with Adam. . . . He knew that unless he did partake there would be an eternal separation between him and the partner that God had given to him, so he transgressed the law. . . . Because had he not partaken of the fruit, they would have been eternally separated” (Cannon, Gospel Truth, 1:24).

■ “Adam voluntarily, and with full knowledge of the consequences, partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that men might be. . . . For his service we owe Adam an immeasurable debt of gratitude” (Marion G. Romney, The Message of Seminary and Institute Teachers [address to seminary and institute employees, 13 July 1966], 5).

C. The Fall brought about significant changes for Adam and Eve’s posterity.

■ “When Adam, our first parent, partook of the forbidden fruit, transgressed the law of God, and became subject unto Satan, he was banished from the presence of God, and was thrust out into outer spiritual darkness. This was the first death. Yet living, he was dead—dead to God, dead to light and truth, dead spiritually; cast out from the presence of God; communication between the Father and the Son was cut off. He was as absolutely thrust out from the presence of God as was Satan and the hosts that followed him. That was spiritual death. But the Lord said that he would not suffer Adam nor his posterity to come to the temporal death until they should have the means by which they might be redeemed from the first death, which is spiritual” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 432).

■ “Not subject to death when he [Adam] was placed upon the earth, there had to come a change in his body through the partaking of this element—whatever you want to call it, fruit—that brought blood into his body; and blood became the life of the body instead of spirit. And blood has in it the seeds of death, some mortal element. Mortality was created through the eating of the forbidden fruit” (Smith, “Fall—Atonement—Resurrection—Sacrament,” 125).

■ “When Adam came into this world, he was not subject to death. He was immortal. He could have lived forever. Had he remained in the Garden of Eden and not transgressed the law that had been given to him, he and Eve would have been there yet. . . .

“. . . Adam had not passed through a resurrection when he was in the Garden of Eden, and having not passed through a resurrection, spirit and body could be separated by the violation of the law. And the Lord provided the law so it could happen, because the mortal estate in which we find ourselves is absolutely necessary to our exaltation” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:91).

■ “The ‘natural man’ is the ‘earthy man’ who has allowed rude animal passions to overshadow his spiritual inclinations” (Spencer W. Kimball, in Conference Report, Oct. 1974, 161; or Ensign, Nov. 1974, 112).

■ “This being ‘conceived in sin’ [ Moses 6:55 ], as I understand it, is only that they are in the midst of sin. They come into the world where sin is prevalent, and it will enter into their hearts, but it will lead them ‘to taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.’” (George Q. Morris, in Conference Report, Apr. 1958, 38).

D. The Fall was a purposeful step in God’s plan of salvation.

■ “We came into this world to die. That was understood before we came here. It is part of the plan, all discussed and arranged long before men were placed upon the earth. When Adam was sent into this world, it was with the understanding that he would violate a law, transgress a law, in order to bring to pass this mortal condition which we find ourselves in today” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:66).

■ “Did they [Adam and Eve] come out in direct opposition to God and to his government? No. But they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. The Lord knew they would do this, and he had designed that they should” (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, 103).

■ “The first step in salvation of man is the laws of eternal and self-existent principles. Spirits are eternal. At the first organization in heaven we were all present, and saw the Savior chosen and appointed and the plan of salvation made, and we sanctioned it” (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 181).

■ “When Adam was driven out of the Garden of Eden, the Lord passed a sentence upon him. Some people have looked upon that sentence as being a dreadful thing. It was not; it was a blessing. . . .

“In order for mankind to obtain salvation and exaltation it is necessary for them to obtain bodies in this world, and pass through the experiences and schooling that are found only in mortality. . . .

“The fall of man came as a blessing in disguise, and was the means of furthering the purposes of the Lord in the progress of man, rather than a means of hindering them” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:113–14).

■ “If we cannot be good, except as we resist and overcome evil, then evil must be present to be resisted.

“So this earth life is set up according to true principles, and these conditions that followed the transgression [of Adam] were not, in the usual sense, penalties that were inflicted upon us. All these . . . that seem to be sad inflictions of punishment, sorrow, and trouble are in the end not that. They are blessings. We have attained a knowledge of good and evil, the power to prize the sweet, to become agents unto ourselves, the power to obtain redemption and eternal life. These things had their origin in this transgression. The Lord has set the earth up so we have to labor if we are going to live, which preserves us from the curse of idleness and indolence; and though the Lord condemns us to death—mortal death—it is one of the greatest blessings that comes to us here because it is the doorway to immortality, and we can never attain immortality without dying.

“So these are all real blessings. We come to the earth with all these conditions arranged as they are so that we have to struggle constantly against evil, struggle to preserve our lives, struggle for everything of true value—that is the thing for us to understand—this is the course of life that is most desirable, and for our good. We have no need to find fault with these conditions. The Lord has ordained them all for our welfare and happiness” (Morris, in Conference Report, Apr. 1958, 39).

E. In this life we are subject to enticements of the flesh and the Spirit.

■ “Man is a spiritual being, a soul, and at some period of his life everyone is possessed with an irresistible desire to know his relationship to the infinite. He realizes that he is not just a physical object that is to be tossed for a short time from bank to bank, only to be submerged finally in the everflowing stream of life. There is something within him which urges him to rise above himself, to control his environment, to master the body and all things physical and live in a higher and more beautiful world” (David O. McKay, in Conference Report, Oct. 1928, 37).

■ “Man has a dual nature; one, related to the earthly or animal life; the other, akin to the divine. Whether a man remains satisfied within what we designate the animal world, satisfied with what the animal world will give him, yielding without effort to the whim of his appetites and passions and slipping farther and farther into the realm of indulgence, or whether, through self-mastery, he rises toward intellectual, moral, and spiritual enjoyments depends upon the kind of choice he makes every day, nay, every hour of his life” (David O. McKay, Gospel Ideals, 347–48).

Our heavenly father ask for us to rise ourselves above the worldy things (by heeding to his laws and ordinances), for he is above all. He's giving us the chance to choose (that free agency, freedom of choice)whether we want to be like him (and with him) or be far from him, and it all comes down to our volunteering will. I'm sure you can witness by your own eyes his grace and mercy amongst us, because we are prone to sin ever since the fruit of knowledge was bitten. With the love that our Heavenly father has for us he sent his only begotten son Jesus Christ, our savior, our king. His examples should hold witness to the glory of our father when he resurrected (now that's something you also must believe...that you will be resurrected if you follow him). The more we are able to understand our father in heaven the more things makes sense, why there was war in heaven.

War in Heaven

War in Heaven. This term arises out of Rev. 12:7 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth. The issues involved such things as agency, how to gain salvation, and who should be the Redeemer. The war broke out because one-third of the spirits refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the Savior. Such a refusal was a rebellion against the Father’s plan of redemption. It was evident that if given agency, some persons would fall short of complete salvation; Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who passed through mortality, without regard to individual preference, agency, or voluntary dedication (see Isa. 14:12–20; Luke 10:18; Rev. 12:4–13; D&C 29:36–38; Moses 4:1–4). The spirits who thus rebelled and persisted were thrust out of heaven and cast down to the earth without mortal bodies, “and thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29:37; see also Rev. 12:9; Abr. 3:24–28).

The warfare is continued in mortality in the conflict between right and wrong, between the gospel and false principles, etc. The same contestants and the same issues are doing battle, and the same salvation is at stake.

Although one-third of the spirits became devils, the remaining two-thirds were not all equally valiant, there being every degree of devotion to Christ and the Father among them. The most diligent were chosen to be rulers in the kingdom (Abr. 3:22–23). The nature of the conflict, however, is such that there could be no neutrals, then or now (Matt. 12:30; 1 Ne. 14:10; Alma 5:38–40).

We must wear our spiritual armors to protect us from inclinations, desires, and weaknesses. And you think that those who possessed by the demons are protecting themselves? Some are willing to be possessed.... Indulging in there free agency!

“Choose Ye This Day”

“Choose you this day whom ye will serve: … but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Josh. 24:15.)

[Hala401]

Sicily510:

I've been slogging through what you posted until my brain is smoking. Please in 25 words or less can you paraphrase it? NO, I'll give you 50.

I'm mostly scientific except where science is not advanced enough to deal with a situation. And something that will probably surprise those of you without medical/genetic background, there are lots of genetic indicators that point towards causation, but it is not "court of law" stuff yet. In my opinion, in less than 10 years we will know why gays and lesbians are the way they are. Contrary to popular opinion, not that many of them are sexually active. First, it is hard to find a partner without "diseases", and many of them are emotionally damaged thanks to churches, and family, so they don't do that good with stable relationships.

And if they are abstinent, then according to church law, they should not have a problem at all, even with priesthood and the Temple.

In the case of Inter-sexed like me, it boils down to the atonement. Do the church fathers really believe in the atonement or not? It is that simple. The whole issue is what is in the imaginations of those making the rulings?

WELL, I believe in the atonement, and it does not matter if they do or not. Heavenly Father knows and he has placed himself between me and them. I really try to be sweet and obedient; following all the rules as I understand them. I try to be civil and respectful to the men who run the church. Do I trust any of them? NOT ON YOUR LIFE! They'd have a better chance of taming a feral cat.

I have vowed to hang around with the church, and do what I can to obey the rules as long as it feels right. I would not be surprised if they suddenly threw me out, and it would hurt a lot. Chances are that would be my last experience with any church at all, but not Heavenly Father, and I'd leave them to deal with the mill stone around who ever's neck it finds.

This discussion has left me feeling bereft, frightened and angry.

[Guest]

Hala, for what it's worth, I'll never throw you out.

[carlimac]

Hala, thank you for sharing your story. I so appreciate how honest you have been with the emotional pain you have been through. I feel badly for being so judgemental of the man on the other thread, but there was so little detail in the story, only that he liked feeling "pretty" when he put on makeup as a child. That story painted only a picture of a very selfish person who was willing to mess up the lives of his children and wife so that he could be a woman. Your situation sounds very different. Of course we're going to get a more real story from you in person when it's not being sensationalized by a national TV channel, simply to make money.

I wish you only the best. It doesn't change my "sense" of who you are. You will remain a woman in my mind as you continue on this forum. May Heavenly Father continue to bless you. He knows and loves the real you.

[Hala401]

Hala, thank you for sharing your story. I so appreciate how honest you have been with the emotional pain you have been through. I feel badly for being so judgemental of the man on the other thread, but there was so little detail in the story, only that he liked feeling "pretty" when he put on makeup as a child. That story painted only a picture of a very selfish person who was willing to mess up the lives of his children and wife so that he could be a woman. Your situation sounds very different. Of course we're going to get a more real story from you in person when it's not being sensationalized by a national TV channel, simply to make money.

I wish you only the best. It doesn't change my "sense" of who you are. You will remain a woman in my mind as you continue on this forum. May Heavenly Father continue to bless you. He knows and loves the real you.

Thank you.

With Heavenly Father providing the power, I want my life to be proof that those who suffer a great deal of pain do not have to go out and be robbers, murderers, rapists and act out in any way that is injurious to society. It has been so already and I plan to continue the practice.

It has been only in the last 10 or so years that genetic knowlege has identified many of the problems that plague people like me. I was talking to a genetic scientist, who is Muslim at one of the local Universities, and he said that in the next 10 or so years, many truths shall be revealed.

The LDS church is my only hope because having been an Evangelical Fundamentalist, those who were members repeatedly demonstrated a lack of ability to assimilate new information; instead clinging to old worn out saws. Were it not illegal, some would still be burning the Wycliffe's of our day.

I owe so much to The Church because it was they who actually paid for the tests that identified the roots of my problem factually, though the previously identified genetic scientist correctly called it simply by sight.

I do apologise if past grief sometimes overtakes me and causes me to emote in a manner that makes me seem ungrateful and ingracious. Today, I feel unwell and should have stayed in bed, where I am going now.

[Sicily510]

I apologize Hala401,

I was not considerate of your circumstances and I didn't show sincerity in my responses. I sense that you are holding on to a lot of resentment and dwelling on somethings in the past. I hope and pray that you will be able to overcome and turn to heavenly father and our savior to help you heal. It's very important that we rid ourselves of our past that reminds us of pain and sorrow. And to fill ourselves with enlightenment that our savior Jesus Christ has enriched us with through his examples. He carried our burdens so that we may learn to drop bad stones in a river and create new stones that will help us step forward towards our heavenly father. You are loved and hope you have a blessed week. :)

[Hala401]

I apologize Hala401,

I was not considerate of your circumstances and I didn't show sincerity in my responses. I sense that you are holding on to a lot of resentment and dwelling on somethings in the past. I hope and pray that you will be able to overcome and turn to heavenly father and our savior to help you heal. It's very important that we rid ourselves of our past that reminds us of pain and sorrow. And to fill ourselves with enlightenment that our savior Jesus Christ has enriched us with through his examples. He carried our burdens so that we may learn to drop bad stones in a river and create new stones that will help us step forward towards our heavenly father. You are loved and hope you have a blessed week. :)

I am sorry also. Heavenly Father has healed me of so much of the hatred I have felt for the perpetrators in my past, but I am just not showing it very well right now.

Issues surrounding gay rights are upsetting to me because my instincts tell me that this is not simple sinful concupiscence but something deeper. I have seen a few people I know from college become extremely disillusioned and abandon organised religion as a result. In my limited experience the LDS church is actually more humane than others in my understanding of the issue.

I don't advocate the conduct, but being of a scientific orientation am impatient that we should discover the etiology and cure of the problem. Remember, Leprosy was once thought to be caused by sin until the late 1930's. Perhaps some still think it is so.