What we can ALL agree on...

[skippy740]

Fort Worth councilman offers hope to youths struggling with their sexuality | Local News ...

The teen bullying must stop! The bickering (in real life) must stop. While we must defend our religious freedoms, it is even MORE important to help people to feel valued and loved. There should NEVER be children driven to the brink of wanting to take their own LIFE.

If these teens will LIVE and choose HOPE - they can lead great lives! Things will get better! Help and hope is all around!

(BTW, if someone disagrees with this... I would recommend that you keep it to yourself. While I and others on this forum may not approve of certain lifestyle choices, I will ALWAYS approve of and support LIFE!)

[NeuroTypical]

Sorry - I'm missing what it is that "we can all agree on". Your post makes seven statements and one recommendation - I'm not sure I agree with any of them.

If you're saying that we must love our neighbor, and that means taking extra care when dealing with mentally unstable or potentially suicidal folks with different agendas than us, then ok - I can agree with that. Is that what you're saying?

[carlimac]

The world would be a better and more peaceful place with no bullying. Agreed!

So what about kids who are overweight, shy, pimpley, slow, clutzy, or brainy who get bullied to the brink of taking their own lives? I think homosexuals are upstaging the rest of insecure kids who are just as much in need of love.

Edited October 15, 2010 by carlimac

[beefche]

Oh for heaven's sake. Upstaging? Is this some kind of theater show? I think everyone agrees that people (teens, men, women, children) should be treated with dignity, respect and love regardless of any difference.

[carlimac]

Seems to be a really big production of late. I agreed that bullying needs to stop. What's to argue with there? But I think we're getting a little sick of such a big spotlight being shown on homosexuals. Why do they need anymore special protection than any other group of people who have been persecuted and put down?

Edited October 15, 2010 by carlimac

[GaySaint]

Carli: It's a big production as of late because of the sheer numbers of gay suicides recently. I'm sure if a bunch of people were committing suicide because of their gender or race, or any other reason, the media would be addressing that specific concern too.

Obviously it isn't just gay people who need affirmation to be mentally healthy - everyone does - but it should also be obvious that something is going wrong in regards to affirmations being recieved by gay people who are committing suicide.

[Saguaro]

This past week we have all witnessed tragic deaths across the country as a result of bullying or intimidation of gay young men. We join our voice with others in unreserved condemnation of acts of cruelty or attempts to belittle or mock any group or individual that is different – whether those differences arise from race, religion, mental challenges, social status, sexual orientation or for any other reason. Such actions simply have no place in our society.

From: Newsroom - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

[Just_A_Guy]

GaySaint, what I wonder is--has the gay suicide rate really escalated? In 2007, there were 34,598 suicides in the US. If we say that 5% of the US population is gay, then in 2007 there were at least 1,729 gay suicides.

Are the statistics really rising? Or is the press merely electing to cover more of the gay suicides that were happening all along?

[Gwen]

anyone seen "to save a life"?

it's a little preachy but does much better than some other ones out there. i thought it addressed this issue very well.

[NeuroTypical]

Carli: It's a big production as of late because of the sheer numbers of gay suicides recently.

I keep hearing about this, but haven't seen any statistics.

Got link?

Anecdotes like "there have been five gay suicides last month alone" are useless. Here's what good statistics look like:

Rate of suicide (measured in X out of 1000) for GLBT folks over a period of time.

Compared against the rate for a different demographic over the same period of time.

You look to see if the rates are increasing. If the rate for gays is higher, or increasing while the other group is stable, then we have grounds for worry. Otherwise, we're falling prey to emotional hype, likely brought on by someone trying to toy with our emotions to forward an agenda.

LM

[GaySaint]

Ok. Maybe I should have said that it is an issue because of the number of gay suicides that the media has chosen to cover because those suicides resulted from bullying.

I just don't understand why people have issue with addressing the specific issue of bullying because of one's sexual orientation if that is the current cause of deaths. Honestly, I don't care one wit about stats. I care that preventable deaths are occuring.

If the parents, schools, etc. of these people are going to the media and using the gay angle to get attention, I'm fine with that. I would be fine if someone who was bullied and killed themselves over being mormon went to the media and talked about the religious bias their kid faced too.

JAG: There are stats that talk about how gay people commit suicide at higher rate than heterosexuals (and would account for more than 5% of suicides), particularly teens. There was just a woman here in SLC discussing "family rejection" and how that adds to those stats. I'll try to find that info for you...

[Gwen]

You look to see if the rates are increasing. If the rate for gays is higher, or increasing while the other group is stable, then we have grounds for worry. Otherwise, we're falling prey to emotional hype, likely brought on by someone trying to toy with our emotions to forward an agenda.

LM

even if the rate is not going up and we are just now aware of them because they aren't kept secret so what? how is children killing themselves emotional hype? maybe they have an agenda... to bring the issues of gay teens to light... so what, how is that bad?

agendas only happen because someone feels it personally and sees the need, that doesn't make it bad. we can't all fight every battle, why not divide it up? let the those who have been where the gay teens are help and speak for them. let the breast cancer survivors fight for that cause. let the ppl who have.... whatever fight for that cause. awareness can hurt no one. ignorance hurts everyone.

children killing themselves is not emotional hype.

[Just_A_Guy]

JAG: There are stats that talk about how gay people commit suicide at higher rate than heterosexuals (and would account for more than 5% of suicides), particularly teens. There was just a woman here in SLC discussing "family rejection" and how that adds to those stats. I'll try to find that info for you...

Thanks, GaySaint; I look forward to seeing the numbers.

I just don't understand why people have issue with addressing the specific issue of bullying because of one's sexual orientation if that is the current cause of deaths. Honestly, I don't care one wit about stats. I care that preventable deaths are occuring.

If the parents, schools, etc. of these people are going to the media and using the gay angle to get attention, I'm fine with that. I would be fine if someone who was bullied and killed themselves over being mormon went to the media and talked about the religious bias their kid faced too.

I agree wholly with your first paragraph, and mostly with your second.

What worries me is when relatively innocuous restatements of LDS church doctrine are interpreted as being the root cause of said bullying. That they may be interpreted by some rank-and-file Mormons as supporting extreme positions outside the scope of Church doctrine (as Soulsearcher has attested), I do not deny. But part of being "different" is being able to cogently explain and defend those differences. As for the really extreme cases of bullying--college students do not videotape other college students having sex because of anything Boyd Packer said.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[GaySaint]

From http://www.sprc.org/library/SPRC_LGBT_Youth.pdf

Little can be said with any certainty about the extent of suicide deaths among LGB youth. Sexual orientation is not usually included in a cause of death report or on a death certificate…

Although hard data on suicide rates for young LGB people are lacking, research has established that the most reliable indicators of suicide risk are suicidal ideation and prior suicide attempts (American Psychiatric Association, 2003; Beautrais, 2001; Beautrais, 2004; Borges et al., 2006; Gibb, Beautrais, & Fergusson, 2005).

Studies that compare the rate of suicide attempts among LGB youth with those among heterosexual youth show significantly higher rates for LGB youth:

• Remafedi and colleagues (Remafedi, French, Story, Resnick, & Blum, 1998) found that 28.1 percent of gay or bisexual males in grades 7 through 12 had attempted suicide at least once during their lives, while only 4.2 percent of heterosexual males in those grades had attempted suicide. The corresponding percentages for females were 20.5 percent for lesbian or bisexual females and 14.5 percent for heterosexual females.

• The Massachusetts Youth Risk Behavior Survey reported that LGB high school students in Massachusetts were more than four times as likely as the state’s non-LGB students to have attempted suicide in the last year (Massachusetts Department of Education, 2006b).

• Safren and Heimberg (1999) reported that 30 percent of LGB youth versus 13 percent of heterosexual youth (mean age of about 18) had attempted suicide at some point.

• Garofalo and colleagues (1999) found that high school students identifying as either LGB or not sure of their sexual orientation were 3.4 times as likely to have attempted suicide within the last 12 months as their heterosexual peers.

• D’Augelli and Hershberger (1995) found that LGB youth were three times as likely to have attempted suicide as heterosexual youth.

• Russell and Joyner (2001) found that the risk of attempting suicide was twice as high among LGB youth as among heterosexual youth.

• Eisenberg and Resnick (2006) found that LGB students in grades 9 and 12 were significantly more likely to have attempted suicide than their heterosexual peers. 52.4 percent of LB females and 29.0 percent of GB males had attempted suicide. The percentages of non-GLB females and males who had attempted suicide were 24.8 and 12.6 percent respectively.

• A study in New Zealand found that 32.1 percent of LGB youth through age 21 had attempted suicide, whereas only 7.1 percent of same-age heterosexual youth had made such an attempt (Fergusson, Horwood, & Beautrais, 1999).

Those interested in this topic may also want to check out “The Family Acceptance Project.” It was Caitlin Ryan who was here in SLC a few weeks ago talking about this issue: home | Family Acceptance Project

Whether or not there has been a rise in actual suicides over the years, I do think this month has pointed out on of the very real reasons why some of these suicides occur. It seems strange to me that because it happens to gay people, some would dismiss the issue, refuse to acknowledge that the way these people are being treated BECAUSE OF their sexual orientation does have something to do with it, or not address it directly.

Edited October 15, 2010 by GaySaint

[GaySaint]

JAG: I agree that directly, BKP is not personally responsible. The issue is with the members who take what he said to fuel the already blazing "homophobic" fire (I don't use that word lightly, and certainly don't direct it to anyone here. I'm just acknowledging that such people exist).

Just look at some of the facebook comments on the "we support BKP" facebook groups and you will find people calling for the death of homosexuals (I'll provide quotes I've recieved or heard if you'd like).

The point is that even though the church didn't INTEND for people to talk BKP's words negatively, and have since come out and issued statements against these member's behaviors - the words added to the fire of extreamists who WILL use them to harm others.

I've seen members on these forums banned recently for what they have said about BKPs talk, and the worst part is that they think that they are being righteous by doing so.

I realize the church can only do so much, and has done awesome things since the talk to help, but not all the members are following suit, and dismissing their behavior to avoid confrontation and because of the gay community's reaction is irresponsible.

[GaySaint]

LM: Obviously bullying and suicide isn't solely a gay issue... but to dismiss the gay component because it makes us uncomfortable, and using the fact that builling and suicide isn't soley a gay issue as justification for that dismissal, is what I have a problem with.

I provided the statistics you asked for, but I don't expect anyone to change their focus. Kids who abuse drugs and kids who are gay are both still children of Heavenly Father.

[GaySaint]

So I guess while we all agree that bullying has no place in our society, we don't agree on whether or not the issue of gay bullying should be addressed specifically.

I think it should be - although I don't think it should be the ONLY type of bullying that is addressed specifically.

I think the major issue is that there are extreamists on both sides who believe that they are not bullying if they are saying what they are saying under the guise that it comes from God (or in the case of religious bullying, the guise that it DOESN'T come from God, haha). Therefore, the bully doesn't think they are bullying.

Without addressing certain topics specifically, I wouldn't expect that to change.

[Soulsearcher]

Thanks, GaySaint; I look forward to seeing the numbers.

I agree wholly with your first paragraph, and mostly with your second.

What worries me is when relatively innocuous restatements of LDS church doctrine are interpreted as being the root cause of said bullying.

College students do not videotape other college students having sex because of anything Boyd Packer said.

I guess i need a better definition or example of relatively innocuous restatements of LDS church doctrine before i know exactly how to respond?

[Just_A_Guy]

JAG: I agree that directly, BKP is not personally responsible. The issue is with the members who take what he said to fuel the already blazing "homophobic" fire (I don't use that word lightly, and certainly don't direct it to anyone here. I'm just acknowledging that such people exist).

Just look at some of the facebook comments on the "we support BKP" facebook groups and you will find people calling for the death of homosexuals (I'll provide quotes I've recieved or heard if you'd like).

The point is that even though the church didn't INTEND for people to talk BKP's words negatively, and have since come out and issued statements against these member's behaviors - the words added to the fire of extreamists who WILL use them to harm others.

Actually; seeing the quote "Die in a fire, Packer" on last week's protest page kind of killed my appetite for Facebook comments of any stripe. I'll take you at your word.

That being the case, though: Wouldn't those who purport to be advocating for the emotional welfare of gay Mormon kids, have been better served by calmly saying "look, Elder Packer probably meant interpretation a), and there's no need to get worked up over this" than saying "Elder Packer definitely meant interpretation b), and he wants you all to die!"?

I've seen members on these forums banned recently for what they have said about BKPs talk, and the worst part is that they think that they are being righteous by doing so.

Well, but they've also been slapped with the Church's own statements (and Elder Packer's own edited version), and have refused to accept those. If Elder Packer had simply said "the sky is blue", people like these would interpret that as some kind of doctrinal pronouncement about the state of nature.

And the simple fact is: Mormon gay kids are being told--by many, many people, including some inside the Church--that the law of chastity is irrelevant; that the Atonement is powerless; that repentance is unnecessary. Mormon apostles aren't going to let those kinds of assertions go uncontested, and quite honestly they can't provide any sort of counterpoint without giving some measure of encouragement to the most vicious gay-haters.

I realize the church can only do so much, and has done awesome things since the talk to help, but not all the members are following suit, and dismissing their behavior to avoid confrontation and because of the gay community's reaction is irresponsible.

Yeah; and I hope that will quit happening.

On the other hand (and I've brought this up before): progressive social causes never declare "mission accomplished"; and they never stop pushing for more. So Mormons are going to be very--very slow to concede any ground that they know they will probably never win back. There are people out there who want Packer & Co. muzzled (one of them just got banned from this site), and we'd be blithering idiots to yield them any tactical advantage that will ultimately be turned against us.

[skippy740]

IMO, in the ranking of "worse" sins, murder ranks higher than adultery.

Bullying that leads to murder (or the taking of one's own life) is a higher sin (IMO) than the adultery of the other person sinning against a spouse of the opposite sex that they don't have.

I don't care about statistics. ONE CHILD'S LIFE TAKEN IS ONE TOO MANY.

Now, is the media "hyping" this up lately because of recent developments? I HAVE NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

Are there RELIGIOUS BULLIES that are contributing to it? I HAVE NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT TOO.

The fact is, is that a single life is precious to our Heavenly Father - and we should do what we can to prevent such tragedies to occur.

We need to have our own houses in order before trying to straighten other people out first. That starts with our own attitudes towards those that are DIFFERENT than us.

Look, I don't like the LGBT political agenda. And as a Latter-Day Saint, I will vote against such an agenda and encourage others to do likewise.

But that does NOT include demeaning or disrepecting or bullying an INDIVIDUAL for who they are and what their lifestyle choices are. Every one on this planet is a son or daughter of God. They have the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

DISLIKE the LGBT agenda all day long. NEVER demean an individual.

That's my message and point.

[NeuroTypical]

Thanks for the link, GaySaint. I must say (and I have to carefully say it), that there is a difference between attempting suicide and committing suicide. People who are at risk of falling into one or the other group, are very very different people, with very different things going on with them. I am not attempting to just wave away the needs of those who attempt it, I'm just saying that their needs are different, and the end result of them going through with their plans are different. Someone who attempts suicide, and goes through with their plans, is still alive after their plans have reached fruition. Not true for someone who plans to commit suicide.

Another way to look at it, when thinking about who to help and how urgent it is, it's more urgent to help someone intent on ending their own life, than it is to help someone merely intent on a dangerous and harmful cry for help.

Because of that stark reality, I am a little less concerned about people who may attempt, than I am about people who may commit. It can be a vague distinction for a lot of people, especially those who have not considered the matter closely. A suicide attempt is a cry for help. It's an indication of a problem. Usually a serious problem that needs addressing. But in the end, the vast majority of people who make an attempt, end up living on earth as long as the rest of us. People at risk of actually going through with it, by definition, are a very different group.

So, I'll ask again - does anyone have any statistics about actual deaths? Are gays really more likely to commit suicide? Or are they just much more likely to attempt suicide?

See, in my own personal life, my wife and I help kids on drugs. My wife excells at it. She has indeed saved lives that would otherwise be ended. If my wife knew that 3/1000 druggie kids commit suicide, but 20/1000 gay kids kill themselves, she'd change her focus. But she doesn't know that, and I don't know it, and GaySaint's link doesn't address it either.

LM

Edited October 15, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Just_A_Guy]

I guess i need a better definition or example of relatively innocuous restatements of LDS church doctrine before i know exactly how to respond?

Exhibit A

(the edited version, please note.)

[GaySaint]

LM: The document I linked to suggest that there is an issue getting those numbers, because sexual orienation is not noted on a death certificate, so there is no way to know FOR SURE if someone who commits suicide was gay or not (and can even be contested in living testimony. Some Christians, for example, don't believe homosexuality exists, so I could be overly gay, everyone could know it, but if my mom was a member of one of these groups and denied it as a legal guardian - assuming I was a teen - how is that to be recorded?). But they then cite the numberous studies suggesting that suicide attempts echo closely the stats to suicide successes.

There is also a reference to a 1989 study that suggested that 30% of suicides amoung the teen age bracket were of LGB youth, but that figure, while quoted often as fact, has the scientific flaw mentioned above.

Assuming 10% of a gay population, that would mean gay suicides were 3x higher. If 5%, 6x higher... if you choose to believe that stat.

[Soulsearcher]

Exhibit A (the edited version, please note.)

OK...now look at the amount of members on the site that used it the wrong way still. As said yes it's their view not the church's, but it's the fact that they might still use it as a club. The issue is with the people in this case and the history of using comments from leaders both real or imagined to further their personal views. Did we see people in the church use this talk even the edited version in the past week to cause animosity at all?

I get what you are saying and as a rule i agree, but it also can't be a surprise to wonder why certain people think of gays as less than they are from certain things said real or imagined. Even with crystal clear statements from the church, some people will always know better than the leaders and will take it to extremes, though i am glad to see the church working against that end and trying to find peaceful understanding and relationships.

As you said the religious circle isn't likely to tone it down or give ground they might not get back, but the other side also won't give up as long as there are those who refuse to follow their own guidelines and treat people as more of an illness.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Soulsearcher

[Soulsearcher]

Thanks for the link, GaySaint. I must say (and I have to carefully say it), that there is a difference between attempting suicide and committing suicide. People who are at risk of falling into one or the other group, are very very different people, with very different things going on with them. I am not attempting to just wave away the needs of those who attempt it, I'm just saying that their needs are different, and the end result of them going through with their plans are different. Someone who attempts suicide, and goes through with their plans, is still alive after their plans have reached fruition. Not true for someone who plans to commit suicide.

Another way to look at it, when thinking about who to help and how urgent it is, it's more urgent to help someone intent on ending their own life, than it is to help someone merely intent on a dangerous and harmful cry for help.

Because of that stark reality, I am a little less concerned about people who may attempt, than I am about people who may commit. It can be a vague distinction for a lot of people, especially those who have not considered the matter closely. A suicide attempt is a cry for help. It's an indication of a problem. Usually a serious problem that needs addressing. But in the end, the vast majority of people who make an attempt, end up living on earth as long as the rest of us. People at risk of actually going through with it, by definition, are a very different group.

So, I'll ask again - does anyone have any statistics about actual deaths? Are gays really more likely to commit suicide? Or are they just much more likely to attempt suicide?

See, in my own personal life, my wife and I help kids on drugs. My wife excells at it. She has indeed saved lives that would otherwise be ended. If my wife knew that 3/1000 druggie kids commit suicide, but 20/1000 gay kids kill themselves, she'd change her focus. But she doesn't know that, and I don't know it, and GaySaint's link doesn't address it either.

LM

Some very good questions LM, though i guess part of the point is, shouldn't the focus be making sure that the kids never get to the point they need to cry for help at all? If they don't get to the stage of needing to cry for help possibly we prevent those going even further? Not a sure thing but something to think about.