What we can ALL agree on...

[skippy740]

Is bullying a trial? Yes. Can one "survive" bullying? Yes. It happens every day.

Why?

Eight Straight Suicides - Mike Adams - Townhall Conservative

Eight Straight Suicides

By Mike Adams

10/15/2010

Officials on college campuses across the nation are alarmed at a wave of recent suicides involving Christians who have been harassed by homosexual activists. The main stream media isn’t covering the story so, as usual, I have taken it upon myself to do their jobs for them. None of the following eight cases have been covered by any of the three major news networks.

Jonathan was a community college student in California. He was giving a speech on the impact Jesus Christ has had in his life and in the lives of others he knows. During the speech, he quoted a verse from the Bible, which referred to the traditional definition of marriage. His professor jumped up in the middle of the speech and shouted “You fascist bastard.” He then refused to give Jonathan a grade for the speech – sarcastically telling Jonathan he should “ask God what (his) grade is.” Jonathan subsequently committed suicide.

Scott was a librarian at a university in Ohio. He was a member of a committee charged with picking books for a freshman reading program. He recommended a book called The Marketing of Evil, which was critical of, among other things, homosexuality. A homosexual faculty member publicly accused Scott of sexual harassment – merely for recommending the book. Shortly thereafter, Scott took his own life.

Jennifer was a graduate student in Georgia. She was studying counseling at the graduate level when word got out about her religious objections to homosexuality. Some professors also found out that she considered homosexuality to be a chosen lifestyle. Neal Boortz found out and called her ugly names on his radio show. The university forced Jennifer to go through a government-mandated thought control program, which Neal Boortz had endorsed on air. She soon found herself facing the prospect of expulsion from the university. She later killed herself in the face of the Boortz-led witch hunt.

Crystal was an administrator at a university in Ohio. She wrote an article for the local paper, which let homosexuals know that there are ways to escape the lifestyle that ends their lives prematurely. She told them they could find hope in God. But they were enraged. They demanded that she be fired from her job – even though her opinions were written and disseminated on her own time. They managed to get her fired. Later, she took her own life.

Julia was a student at a university in Michigan. She was asked to help a homosexual client by using “gay affirmation” therapy. But she refused to do so because of her beliefs about homosexuality. (Note: It is OK to refuse to provide gay correction therapy even if that is what the client desires. But one must not refuse to provide gay affirmation therapy). Julia was expelled from Eastern Michigan because of her views. So she ended it all.

Graham was a freshman at a university in North Carolina. He was taking a class in the political science department when the issue of gay marriage came up. When Graham mentioned his opposition to same-sex marriage his professor told him to shut up. He then threatened him with prosecution under the university speech code. So Graham decided to file suit. But before the suit was filed he took his own life.

Ruth was a student in Georgia. She was battling her campus speech code in federal court when homosexual activists began spreading rumors about her on the internet. They even called her a “bitch” for fighting against the campus speech code. After they circulated pictures of her Jewish co-plaintiff (doctored with swastikas) all over the internet she decided she had had enough. So she took her own life.

Mike was a professor in North Carolina. The director of the local LGBSTQQCCISA (Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, transgendered, queer, questioning, completely confused, indecisively-sexed, and allied) Center kept sending him emails promoting LGBSTQQCCISA issues. The director of the LGBSTQQCCISA Center admitted that she did it to provoke him. He felt bullied. So he killed himself.

These eight cases are all true except for one thing: The Christians who were bullied by gays and gay activists are all still alive. Not a single one has committed suicide. That is because they have centered their lives around Jesus Christ, rather than their sexual identity. And no amount of bullying can change my mind about that.

This article further emphasizes the need for HOPE and to choose LIFE rather than trying to "end it all".

[cofchristcousin]

I am going to draw from my personal experiences and publicly make knowing that bulling is not as one sided as many on this forum are making it out to be. I joined the army when I was 17 in order that I could be guaranteed to serve a mission when I turned 19. Although I was 17 I was small for my age and weighed about 115 and was about 5’6”. No one warned me about the possibilities I encountered on a regular basis.

I was targeted on many occasions and threatened in efforts to get me involved in homosexual acts. There were a number of occasions when the situation became violent. Having grown up in a family of boys and having a black belt in martial arts was the primary reasons I was able to defend myself. Some may say such is not the norm and is quite uncommon. That is not at all my experience. I was stationed at many different military instillations and this was common at every one of them. It is the single reason that I oppose open gays in the military. I could provide a great deal of information concerning various methods of “gay” bulling and threats – many of which can be seen on any forum discussing this topic. Such as gayness cannot be changed, if you have been involved in gay activities you will never be able to be understood, fit in or accepted by the “straight” community. If for any reason you have been involved in homosexual activity you can never admit it in the straight community so if you tell anyone what happened you will be condemned and not helped by the straight community.

I post this because there is bulling within the gay community attempting to discourage gay individuals from changing or even believing it possible.

The Traveler

I think I have heard of this kind of harrassment and don't doubt this at all. I have heard many military women have the same experience with men attempting to bully/entice them into heterosexual encounters, not wanting to take no for an answer. In college I had a handful of similar experiences. I don't think it's a gay thing, but it's the maladaptive bully and domineering mindset that most inclined people grow out of after young adulthood. Gays and straights are equally able to be immature jerks . IMo.

I post this because there is bulling within the gay community attempting to discourage gay individuals from changing or even believing it possible

I think most lgtb are emphatic that a person should accept what they are if they possibly can. The only people I have seen who appeared to successfully change were bisexual, not the people at the edges of the spectrum. Virtually every lgbt person has spent years/decades trying to become what they are not, and would like to keep other people from torturing themselves in that way. It's no way to live.

Edited October 17, 2010 by cofchristcousin

[GaySaint]

Kudos to this guy!!

(Gay) Mormon Guy: President Packer's Talk... From a (Gay) Mormon Perspective

Ok. I had to take some time to respond to this because I had to take some time out and read this guy's blog. There is some talk among the other bloggers that questions the authenticity of this blog. If you take Evergreen’s methodology, this guy could literally be their case study: absent father, overbearing mother, sexual abuse, etc. He is unknown to the community of faithful LDS online bloggers, and his posts are less than genuine.

But my issue with him is of a different source. It really bothers me that he insists on remaining completely anonymous – something that, to me, outlines the entire problem with this issue within the church: people who are afraid to speak out and be known. How many young men is he really helping by staying private? How is a young 12 to 14 year old boy who is affraid to even type the word "gay" into his web browser for fear that his parents might see it in the internet history supposed to even read his blog? How can these young men seek him out for help if he won’t provide contact information? How is his bishop supposed to use him as a resource in his ward/stake/church, etc. when someone asks about homosexuality if he isn’t even honest with his own priesthood leaders about what he faces?

His blog also doesn’t confront the negative feelings he has. He tows a great church line – which I think is fantastic – but he never posts anything real, anything about the darkness of his trials. He doesn’t give any real information about how he deals with his temptations.

I think this guy is a coward. Sure, it’s hard to be open and honest and continue to live a life within the church with everyone staring at you and knowing your secret… but HIDING this issue only compounds it.

The real heroes are here, here, here, and here: men and women who are clinging to the gospel while not being afraid to tell the world their darkest moments, their doubts, their fears; who are not afraid to sit on panels at firesides, or talk in their wards. These men and women are not afraid to be known, to be contacted, to be feared, or to be loved; kudos to them, not (Gay) Mormon Guy.

Edited October 20, 2010 by GaySaint

[Blackmarch]

Carli: It's a big production as of late because of the sheer numbers of gay suicides recently. I'm sure if a bunch of people were committing suicide because of their gender or race, or any other reason, the media would be addressing that specific concern too.

Obviously it isn't just gay people who need affirmation to be mentally healthy - everyone does - but it should also be obvious that something is going wrong in regards to affirmations being recieved by gay people who are committing suicide.

I don't trust statistics much. they have their use, but they are far too easy to misapply.

And no the media may not catch it. Rare is it to get all sides or the whole picture from the media.

[Traveler]

I think I have heard of this kind of harrassment and don't doubt this at all. I have heard many military women have the same experience with men attempting to bully/entice them into heterosexual encounters, not wanting to take no for an answer. In college I had a handful of similar experiences. I don't think it's a gay thing, but it's the maladaptive bully and domineering mindset that most inclined people grow out of after young adulthood. Gays and straights are equally able to be immature jerks . IMo.

I think most lgtb are emphatic that a person should accept what they are if they possibly can. The only people I have seen who appeared to successfully change were bisexual, not the people at the edges of the spectrum. Virtually every lgbt person has spent years/decades trying to become what they are not, and would like to keep other people from torturing themselves in that way. It's no way to live.

There is a problem with definitions. If someone is successful in returning to being straight they are labeled as really being bisexual. If someone (even a biological parent of for several years of multiple children) turns to homosexuality they are finally “out of the closet” and no longer torturing themselves. Regardless of the challenge – if you really believe you can or really believe you can’t – you are probably right.

I have two points to this discussion:

First – that there is a double standard that is just as apparent or more so within the homosexual community.

Second – That individual will trumps all. There is NO reason that anyone should ever affix blame for what they make or become of themselves beyond themselves.

The Traveler

PS If just one homosexual person in all of humanity by their will changes from homosexuality to heterosexuality or vice versa – it proves that it can be done.

Edited October 20, 2010 by Traveler
Added PS.

[Guest]

Okay you guys - I will solve this problem. All you have to do is follow my advice.

(I'm trying to pretend I'm Dorave. ).

In all seriousness. Fathers/Mothers... keep your children close to you. Love them, talk to them, guide them, teach them, help them, keep them safe. When your children have problems, their first instincts should be, "I need to talk to Mom and Dad", instead of "Mom and Dad better not find out!".

I just came from reading a thread on here about this girl whose dad is the bishop and so she can't confess to her bishop because then "her dad will find out". I say it here like I said it then - I would rather my kids come to me BEFORE they go to the bishop!

Think about that and think about bullying. Your kids are going to kill themselves when they are backed into a corner with no way out. That will only happen if they don't find safe haven at home! The situation gets more intense when there is a drastic difference between themselves and the environment. Right now - homosexuality is "in your face". It is causing a big public divide between the gay community and the religious community (a natural occurrence in a revolution - and believe me, we are in a LGTB revolution). If your child is a member of both communities, the internal conflict will be very big. Without even putting bullies in the picture, you already have a volatile situation with your child. You add the bullies, and it is very understandable that a child who cannot run to his home for safe haven will find solace elsewhere or end up killing themselves.

Therefore, my plea to you, parents. Keep your children close to your bossom. Keep communication open. Keep your marriage strong, stabilize your household. Keep your home a peaceful place where everybody in your household can find rest. Yes, you and your husband need to get your act straight. Your language of love to each other is going to be the language of love your children employ.

Ride the journey with your children. Understand who they are. Let them know that whatever happens, how many times they stumble and fall, how many times they struggle uphill, you are always going to be there to help them up. ALWAYS. Teach them the gospel with fervor, then let them make the choice. It may be hard for you to find them veering away from what we know is right - but if you have taught them the doctrines properly, they will find their way to Heavenly Father. Trust in Him.

Make a poster and hang it in your kitchen - or the place where your family uses the most - LOVE IS SPOKEN HERE.

Bullies can't get through that force field. It's like Harry Potter who can't get killed by Voldermort because his mom's love is in his veins.

Edited October 20, 2010 by anatess

[ZappBrannigan]

So after trying to read 6 pages, I am confused; did we all agree on something? If the argument is that bullying needs to stop, I would ask does it? If I remember correctly, we are told several things in the scriptutres;

2 Nephi 2:11

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility

Mosiah 23:21-22

21 Nevertheless the Lord seeth fit to chasten his people; yea, he trieth their patience and their faith.

22 Nevertheless—whosoever putteth his trust in him the same shall be lifted up at the last day. Yea, and thus it was with this people.

D&C 105:6

And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.

D&C 121:7-9

7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;

8 And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.

9 Thy friends do stand by thee, and they shall hail thee again with warm hearts and friendly hands.

D&C 122:1-9

1 The ends of the earth shall inquire after thy name, and fools shall have thee in derision, and hell shall rage against thee;

2 While the pure in heart, and the wise, and the noble, and the virtuous, shall seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under thy hand.

3 And thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors.

4 And although their influence shall cast thee into trouble, and into bars and walls, thou shalt be had in honor; and but for a small moment and thy voice shall be more terrible in the midst of thine enemies than the fierce lion, because of thy righteousness; and thy God shall stand by thee forever and ever.

5 If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea;

6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;

7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?

9 Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever.

So it seems that there needs to be bad things that take place in our lives. Right? After all, our days are known, and shall not be numbered less. Unless of course we chose to number them less...

Sorry for the gruffness, but after 6 pages, I wanted to play the opposition...

[Gwen]

are you suggesting that if there were no more bullies in the world we would not have opposition in this life?

i have to disagree if you are. this world creates enough opposition all on it's own. as ppl we do not have to add to it. it's the lord's job to chastise his ppl not some bully on the corner.

[carlimac]

Ok. I had to take some time to respond to this because I had to take some time out and read this guy's blog. There is some talk among the other bloggers that questions the authenticity of this blog. If you take Evergreen’s methodology, this guy could literally be their case study: absent father, overbearing mother, sexual abuse, etc. He is unknown to the community of faithful LDS online bloggers, and his posts are less than genuine.

But my issue with him is of a different source. It really bothers me that he insists on remaining completely anonymous – something that, to me, outlines the entire problem with this issue within the church: people who are afraid to speak out and be known. How many young men is he really helping by staying private? How is a young 12 to 14 year old boy who is affraid to even type the word "gay" into his web browser for fear that his parents might see it in the internet history supposed to even read his blog? How can these young men seek him out for help if he won’t provide contact information? How is his bishop supposed to use him as a resource in his ward/stake/church, etc. when someone asks about homosexuality if he isn’t even honest with his own priesthood leaders about what he faces?

His blog also doesn’t confront the negative feelings he has. He tows a great church line – which I think is fantastic – but he never posts anything real, anything about the darkness of his trials. He doesn’t give any real information about how he deals with his temptations.

I think this guy is a coward. Sure, it’s hard to be open and honest and continue to live a life within the church with everyone staring at you and knowing your secret… but HIDING this issue only compounds it.

The real heroes are here, here, here, and here: men and women who are clinging to the gospel while not being afraid to tell the world their darkest moments, their doubts, their fears; who are not afraid to sit on panels at firesides, or talk in their wards. These men and women are not afraid to be known, to be contacted, to be feared, or to be loved; kudos to them, not (Gay) Mormon Guy.

Panels at firesides and speaking about this in their wards? I think it suffices for us to know that homosexuality exists among members of the church, but I doubt many members want it quite that much in their faces. I don't want details just like you wouldn't want details of anyone elses sexual attractions. A bishop in my former stake gave the heart rending tale of his own son running away from home rather than tell his dad, and how he went after him- literally 500 miles to bring him home. That was enough. I don't think I"m going to be spiritually uplifted by anyone coming out at the pulpit.

You may criticize my attitude as being cold hearted and in denial, but I don't want to hear about anyones' abuse at home or binge drinking or dalliances into pornography at church or a fireside either. Hand me some literature to read but lets not make this such an open book that we're all squirming. I don't think the spirit can be there when we're so hyper focused on our weakensses and begging others to accept them. It's just too sensitive a subject.

I really think gay members of the church just need to buck up and live the gospel the best they can. I think giving undo attention to this problem in a church setting is only going to weaken them. I think there is such a variation of intensity of homosexual feelings from person to person that it would be foolish to lump them all in the same category and treat them the same. Why give them a pass when what they think is their homosexual tendency (as the world describes it) is for real and inescapable, when it isn't. ( May be for some but not all.) The goal is to help every individual on the earth reach their spiritual and eternal potential. Coddling anyone in their weaknesses isn't going to help. (Like giving them a platform where they can tell us all about their temtaion that they can't overcome. That only reinforces it.) Loving them unconditionally is! Treating them as individuals with the same potential as anyone else to be exalted is helping.

Why am I here again? I said goodbye to this thread. It's like any other temptation. I need to just ignore those emails from LDS.net I get and refocus my attention on something else rather than opening it. I think the same goes for our sexual temptations. We need to quickly refocus our attention on what the Lord would have us do rather than giving into the compelling feeling that I HAVE to follow my feelings- which may coming from the adversary anyway. I get the feeling he is laughing and enjoying this whole gay revolution. Makes me sick. C,mon people. WHo do we really believe in? Who's message is truth and who's is a lie?

Edited October 20, 2010 by carlimac

[Just_A_Guy]

Ok. I had to take some time to respond to this because I had to take some time out and read this guy's blog. There is some talk among the other bloggers that questions the authenticity of this blog.

GaySaint, that's not fair. You and Soulsearcher are anonymous--to me, at least. You have (very kindly and patiently) related experiences with closed-minded Mormons that, quite bluntly, don't jibe with anything I've seen--that I have no personal basis for believing, and that quite bluntly I don't want to believe. Yet I have taken both of your accounts at face value, assuming that different people could indeed have different experiences and that I was not the final arbiter of how people I have never met could, would, or do act.

Was I wrong?

But my issue with him is of a different source. It really bothers me that he insists on remaining completely anonymous – something that, to me, outlines the entire problem with this issue within the church: people who are afraid to speak out and be known.

Well, but that's not confined to gay Mormons. A major (not the only, but a major) reason I am anonymous here, is because I've admitted to having issues with pornography. That's not something I would care to have known outside my immediate family circle.

How many young men is he really helping by staying private?

Fewer, now that some people are out trying to reduce his status to a mere sock puppet.

How is a young 12 to 14 year old boy who is affraid to even type the word "gay" into his web browser for fear that his parents might see it in the internet history supposed to even read his blog?

The links you offer don't solve that conundrum, either, though.

How can these young men seek him out for help if he won’t provide contact information? How is his bishop supposed to use him as a resource in his ward/stake/church, etc. when someone asks about homosexuality if he isn’t even honest with his own priesthood leaders about what he faces?

As I read his posts, it looks like he's getting there with regard to speaking to his bishop. (Although, as a point of doctrine, I think he's right that it isn't "required".) As for becoming a "resource" - not all people who struggle with SSA (or, in my case, porn) want to be put up on display in their wards. Some people just aren't ready for that.

Moreover: if chaste, gay people are under some kind of moral obligation to tell their bishop their problem--the better to be a "resource" to the rest of their ward--then the logical conclusion is that we all have an obligation to tell our bishops about every single one of our trials and shortcomings. My wife is obliged to tell her bishop about her depression. My sister is obliged to tell every bishop she'll ever have that yes, at one point she and her husband had marital problems and sought counseling. I should have told my bishop about my varicoceles (and the subsequent surgery to correct them); my wife should have spilled her guts about her bout with PCOS; my grandmother must tell her bishop about her arthritis; and heaven help the poor sap who develops hemorrhoids (and the bishop who has to hear about them).

(And people say Mormonism's invasive now!)

His blog also doesn’t confront the negative feelings he has. He tows a great church line – which I think is fantastic – but he never posts anything real, anything about the darkness of his trials. He doesn’t give any real information about how he deals with his temptations.

He alludes to them; but you're right to the extent that he doesn't wallow in them.

I think this guy is a coward. Sure, it’s hard to be open and honest and continue to live a life within the church with everyone staring at you and knowing your secret… but HIDING this issue only compounds it.

"Secret", in this case, being only homosexuality? Or can we expand it into ever single personal shortcoming, predisposition, and trial under the sun?

The real heroes are here, here, here, and here: men and women who are clinging to the gospel while not being afraid to tell the world their darkest moments, their doubts, their fears; who are not afraid to sit on panels at firesides, or talk in their wards. These men and women are not afraid to be known, to be contacted, to be feared, or to be loved; kudos to them, not (Gay) Mormon Guy.

Yes, kudos to them; but it is also "not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength". GayMormonGuy seems to be doing all he's capable of doing for the time being. You, and I guess quite a few others, call him a coward for it.

But if he finally decides he cannot cope with the demands that he fully "come out" before he is ready, and commits suicide--dollars to donuts, the Church (and only the Church) will get the blame.

Edited October 20, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[GaySaint]

Carli: The firesides certainly weren't about gay sex. Sheesh! They were about understanding and helping those who struggle with this particular struggle. I'm sorry that "standing with those who stand in need of comfort" makes you squirm if those people happen to be gay.

[GaySaint]

JAG: Anyone who has sent me a PM or an email gets my real name :) I agree that people should choose whether or not to be a resource for this problem, but this guy suggests that he IS a resource and an authority. He should not be congratulated for being so until he ACTUALLY is one.

But I understand your point. He does, however, comment about how he had issues with pornography as well, but didn’t feel it necessary to tell his bishop about what KIND of pornography he was watching. I happen to have used this same excuse myself at one point in my life, but now feel that hiding such details (and it doesn’t have to be an explicit in-depth confession, but I think the fact that it was homosexual pornography was pertinent as to how a bishop may want to help the person repent and remain faithful) is disingenuous, and contrary to the principles of full disclosure.

Maybe he doesn’t tell his priesthood leaders these details because he feels they are inadequately equipped to help him. I would certainly agree with such a statement – but saying that in his blog may be construed as a “negative” – and he certainly can’t let any of that creep in (sarcasm).

Edit: I should say that I'm not attempting to convince anyone that this guy doesn't have merit if they choose to see merit in what he is doing (and I do to the point that he is faithful to the church, I just think that his merit isn't what he wishes it is due to his anonymity. He can't help someone stay faithful simply by saying "But I'm faithful... I'm just not going to tell you how I do it or how I feel about it"), just that I think that if we are going to praise someone for their ability to remain faithful to the church while dealing with SSA, we should praise those who are forthright and sincere…

Maybe that wasn’t the point of Carli’s post (which is how I took it), and in that case, I was wrong.

Edited October 20, 2010 by GaySaint

[Just_A_Guy]

I agree that people should choose whether or not to be a resource for this problem, but this guy suggests that he IS a resource and an authority. He should not be congratulated for being so until he ACTUALLY is one.

Well, I think Carlimac was congratulating him more for his insight into Elder Packer's talk than for being a "resource" generally (perhaps I'm misreading her intent, though). Not to get all Clintonesque, but what does it mean (in this context) to be a "resource" and how does GayMormonGuy really present himself? If a resource must be perfect--either in his repentance (more on that below), or in his ability to communicate what he's gone through--then no one can be a "resource".

He does, however, comment about how he had issues with pornography as well, but didn’t feel it necessary to tell his bishop about what KIND of pornography he was watching.

I don't know if we can conclude that. All he says (unless I've missed another post elsewhere) is (from his very first post):

I was in a leadership calling, and before out [sic] interview I had done the 12-step program for addiction recovery, read everything I could find about overcoming same-sex attraction, written pages and pages on my thoughts, fasted, burned away nights reading the scriptures... When I went to him, I went, feeling, like usual, that I had overcome the issue. I confessed my sins, spoke about what I was doing to change and repent, and then listened. The bishop didn't think that I had much of a problem. He told me what I already knew - when I've done enough to sincerely repent of my sins, the Lord forgives me in that very moment. I had done enough and could move on.

Edit: I should say that I'm not attempting to convince anyone that this guy doesn't have merit if they choose to see merit in what he is doing (and I do to the point that he is faithful to the church, I just think that his merit isn't what he wishes it is due to his anonymity.

A fair statement.

He can't help someone stay faithful simply by saying "But I'm faithful... I'm just not going to tell you how I do it or how I feel about it"), just that I think that if we are going to praise someone for their ability to remain faithful to the church while dealing with SSA, we should praise those who are forthright and sincere…

I agree--sort of. Although on another level: here's a Mormon who is gay, isn't having sex, hasn't become suicidal about it, and isn't fighting the Church tooth and nail to change its mind.

In light of what comes out of certain quarters: the fact that a gay Mormon can even do that, is huge. And I think that's why some (not you, but some) want to tear him down so completely.

[GaySaint]

JAG: He says this:

When I went to see my bishop to get help with pornography and associated habits, it didn't matter if I was attracted to guys or girls - it was the same process to overcome the issues.

He then mentions that the CHI doesn't require him to tell anyone, and while I agree that is true, to not seems to me to be the very definition of hiding. I did miss his following sentence, however:

Looking at that, I realize that it was because I didn't want to face the facts.

But I still don't feel any better about him.

The fact that you, amoung others, think that there aren't many LDS people JUST LIKE this guy who are...

...gay, isn't having sex, hasn't become suicidal about it, and isn't fighting the Church tooth and nail to change its mind...

... is the problem. There are a lot, but they DON'T SPEAK OUT. And maybe I'm looking at this wrong because I'm looking at it from the gay point of view. I suppose if I look at it from the member point of view, having a blog like this brings attention to the issue. I don't think it's fulfilling it's purpose of helping other gay members though... only helping LDS members who WANT a gay shining example to look up to.

While I appreciate that there will be church members who would follow his blog while not finding others appropriate enough to follow, I am concerned that he is presenting a facade that is not realistic. If members of the church believe that all gay members have to do to be faithful is "turn to the Lord" as this guy claims, as much as I wish that to be true, it doesn't work for the majority, especially if members running with this information and spouting it as the "cure" for homosexuality.

And members tend to take things to their ultimate righteous conclusion, regardless if there is any evidence of such. Does that make sense?

In other words, I think it is just as dangerous to give the members of the church "what they want" if it is false, as it is to force them to sit through a gay pride parade and present it as a representation of real gay life.

EDIT: I would be amiss to not note that you are right about some gay people wanting to tear him down, but I think, from those who I know who do, it isn't because of what he is trying to do, nor is it because he is living his life in the way he is, but because the solutions he proposes have failed for so many others that those who have been there and done everything he is portraying immediately believe that he must be insincere: He is either not telling us something, or he isn't who he claims he is. The fact that "praying the gay away" or even "praying the gay into submission" hasn't worked for 999 out of the 1000 people doesn't necessarily mean that he is lying, but if he claims to be that 1 person, all the rest of us immediately wonder why it works for him when it didnt' for all of us.

And since no one can answer that question- especially himself - the easiest conclusion is that "he is not telling us something, or he isn't who he claims to be."

Edited October 20, 2010 by GaySaint

[ZappBrannigan]

are you suggesting that if there were no more bullies in the world we would not have opposition in this life?

i have to disagree if you are. this world creates enough opposition all on it's own. as ppl we do not have to add to it. it's the lord's job to chastise his ppl not some bully on the corner.

I am saying that bullying is a trial, and as such is allowed to happen for our good. Saying that if people didn't exercise their own will, and therefore didn't do anything bad to each other, then we would still have enough trials that happen "naturally" seems odd. Consider the scripture

Mosiah 3:19

For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

So what is "unnatural" about men acting out towards one another if doing so makes you a "Natural Man" according to the scriptures?

Also, consider the following scripture with regards to "Natural Man" acting naturally towards other people;

Alma 14:11

But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

So it would seem that if there is so much in the scriptures telling us that times will be tough, but we will be okay if we listen to the advice offered in Matthew 11:28-30

28 ¶ Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

[Just_A_Guy]

The fact that you, amoung others, think that there aren't many LDS people JUST LIKE this guy who are...

... is the problem. There are a lot, but they DON'T SPEAK OUT.

But when they take baby steps towards speaking out, they're attacked for not being open enough. And we get caught in this chicken-and-egg cycle.

I suppose if I look at it from the member point of view, having a blog like this brings attention to the issue. I don't think it's fulfilling it's purpose of helping other gay members though... only helping LDS members who WANT a gay shining example to look up to.

To me, that seems rather like saying that since the Biblical account of Jesus' perfect life is woefully incomplete, it can only meaningful to those who are already perfect but is of no real value to the rest of us mortals.

While I appreciate that there will be church members who would follow his blog while not finding others appropriate enough to follow, I am concerned that he is presenting a facade that is not realistic. If members of the church believe that all gay members have to do to be faithful is "turn to the Lord" as this guy claims, as much as I wish that to be true, it doesn't work for the majority, especially if members running with this information and spouting it as the "cure" for homosexuality.

And members tend to take things to their ultimate righteous conclusion, regardless if there is any evidence of such. Does that make sense?

He makes it look too easy, in other words. Yeah, that makes sense. Again, though, that's a Church trait that transcends gay rights. Working through the Addiction Recovery Program, for example (as I did)--the manual is semantically accurate, but doesn't begin to approach the gut-wrenching process that it really was. And it's a fine line between conveying the reality of a difficult experience, versus just plain griping. The guys you link to, seem to at least try to walk this line, which is a great thing--if you can do it. For his own reasons, GayMormonGuy seems to prefer to simply avoid dwelling on it.

I do think this guy is quite aware that what worked for him, won't for everyone (see, e.g., here). There's a fine line between making sure you're not advocating a one-size-fits-all approach, and trying to squelch the fact that a certain course of (for lack of a better word) "treatment" does, in fact, sometimes work.

I mean, would you really want this removed from the internet--stamped out of cyber-existence--simply because his experiences do not appear to mirror your own, or even a majority of people like you?

EDIT (responding to your edits):

EDIT: I would be amiss to not note that you are right about some gay people wanting to tear him down, but I think, from those who I know who do, it isn't because of what he is trying to do, nor is it because he is living his life in the way he is, but because the solutions he proposes have failed for so many others that those who have been there and done everything he is portraying immediately believe that he must be insincere: He is either not telling us something, or he isn't who he claims he is. The fact that "praying the gay away" or even "praying the gay into submission" hasn't worked for 999 out of the 1000 people doesn't necessarily mean that he is lying, but if he claims to be that 1 person, all the rest of us immediately wonder why it works for him when it didnt' for all of us.

And since no one can answer that question- especially himself - the easiest conclusion is that "he is not telling us something, or he isn't who he claims to be."

But he doesn't claim to have "prayed the gay away". He claims (I think) it the attractions have somewhat diminished; he claims he is happy even though he isn't having sex with other men. He does not claim that the attractions have gone.

[Last paragraph of this post deleted since it just wasn't constructive]

Edited October 20, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Gwen]

I am saying that bullying is a trial, and as such is allowed to happen for our good. Saying that if people didn't exercise their own will, and therefore didn't do anything bad to each other, then we would still have enough trials that happen "naturally" seems odd. Consider the scripture

bullying is a trial, not arguing that. i do not think it's allowed to happen for our good. it's allowed to happen due to the laws of agency and justice can not be robbed. god, having all power, can make those experiences something we can grow from (for our good).

so you are saying that life is perfect, if it was not for other ppl you would have no trials?

this world is the "natural" world, it is where the "natural" man exists. in a perfect world with no bullies or whatever there would still be trials. ppl would still have a sex drive before they could act on it, you still have to control those passions. you still have to work for your food and till the ground by the sweat of your brow. this world was designed to test and try us. our natural state means it is inevitable. we don't have to make this life a trial for each other. there is no need for bullies and god does not want them here for "his will". a lack of bullies will not disrupt the plan of god, in fact it might just actually speed it along it's path. heaven forbid we help that plan move forth instead of justifying the behavior as "part of god's plan".

this is like when i hear ppl say what happened to the native american's it's ok cause the book of mormon says the laminites would be wiped off the land if they did not keep the commandments.... what? so it's ok? i don't think anyone gets away with hurting another. if i hurt someone god might be able to make good come from it for them but that won't get me off the hook, i still hurt someone and justice will not be robbed.

yes there is opposition in all things.... that does not mean bullying in all things.

[GaySaint]

But when they take baby steps towards speaking out, they're attacked for not being open enough. And we get caught in this chicken-and-egg cycle.

Hey, if I can encourage him to do an even better job by "gently prodding" - ok, not so gently - him, I'm all for it =). Maybe I should be gentler with my approach.

To me, that seems rather like saying that since the Biblical account of Jesus' perfect life is woefully incomplete, it can only meaningful to those who are already perfect but is of no real value to the rest of us mortals.

Not at all, but I do believe Christ's story has the most value to those who believe in and follow that path. GMG's path is believed by members of the church who see no reason as to why it WOULDN'T work for everyone, and as such has the most value for them.

I mean, would you really want this removed from the internet--stamped out of cyber-existence--simply because his experiences do not appear to mirror your own, or even a majority of people like you?

Of course not. I don't really believe in censorship (although another point that irks me is that comments that don't "fall in line" with GMG aren't allowed to be posted, nor are sincere questions which he finds too personal or otherwise inappropriate).

But he doesn't claim to have "prayed the gay away". He claims (I think) it the attractions have somewhat diminished; he claims he is happy even though he isn't having sex with other men. He does not claim that the attractions have gone.

A fair point, but it still comes across in a way that makes gay people who have been there, done that, doubt his sincerity.

And it isn’t' just because he isn't breaking the law of chastity, but it's that he tows such the evergreen line (which is not always the church's line). I know plenty of celibate or dating (women) gays (like in the blogs I posted) who freely discuss their struggle with how to live church standards, and why it is important that they do. GMG doesn't seem to give us such insight... it’s all very rote recitation of what one would EXPECT if a gay member were in this position, and the other 999 usually find that what they expect is not what ends up being reality.

Those who seem to be able to admit that their reality isn't what they expected and talk about how they deal with that seem to be more... honest and helpful.

The parts of your post I didn't address I agree with.

Edited October 20, 2010 by GaySaint

[Just_A_Guy]

Not at all, but I do believe Christ's story has the most value to those who believe in and follow that path. GMG's path is believed by members of the church who see no reason as to why it WOULDN'T work for everyone, and as such has the most value for them.

Well, that's the (I think) unintentional result. But I think the intentional result is what I've already stated--that the end is attainable, even if the means aren't spelled out as clearly as they could or should be.

Of course not. I don't really believe in censorship (although another point that irks me is that comments that don't "fall in line" with GMG aren't allowed to be posted, nor are sincere questions which he finds too personal or otherwise inappropriate).

Can't speak as to that.

A fair point, but it still comes across in a way that makes gay people who have been there, done that, doubt his sincerity.

A fair point, in return. I'd venture to guess that few who have been through it are able to express it well.

And it isn’t' just because he isn't breaking the law of chastity, but it's that he tows such the evergreen line (which is not always the church's line). I know plenty of celibate or dating gays (like in the blogs I posted) who freely discuss their struggle with how to live church standards, and why it is important that they do. GMG doesn't seem to give us such insight... it’s all very rote recitation of what one would EXPECT if a gay member were in this position, and the other 999 usually find that what they expect is not what ends up being reality.

Well, he's stayed within the bounds of the culture he was raised in, to wit:

1) he doesn't tend to question the whys of Church doctrine; and

2) he speaks of the Atonement and repentance in generalities, rather than concrete examples.

These characteristics of Mormon culture do transcend the specific issue of homosexuality, though I agree that they probably hamper his ability to help many others in his situation.

Those who seem to be able to admit that their reality isn't what they expected and talk about how they deal with that seem to be more... honest and helpful.

Touché. I don't think it follows that GayMormonGuy is not remotely helpful--that he's a cipher or a sock puppet. But I'll readily grant that he's not the be-all, end-all solution for every gay Mormon out there.

Edited October 20, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[GaySaint]

I guess I have to admit that this is so personal for me because I spent years looking for someone like GMG, and never found someone like him AT ALL, let alone someone who could speak from personal experience. I was always told people like him existed, but no one would point me to where I could find one, and no one knew where these people were. Now, it's like he's saying "Yup, I'm here!" - which is great for people who were in my situation, but then they hit the wall of "Please don't contact for me. I'm HERE, but I'm not going to BE HERE for you."

And that is very frustrating from my 14 year old self point-of-view. I think I would have been more upset over finding someone who was in my shoes who was unwilling to talk to me, than I was not being able to find that person to begin with.

[ZappBrannigan]

bullying is a trial, not arguing that. i do not think it's allowed to happen for our good. it's allowed to happen due to the laws of agency and justice can not be robbed. god, having all power, can make those experiences something we can grow from (for our good).

so you are saying that life is perfect, if it was not for other ppl you would have no trials?

this world is the "natural" world, it is where the "natural" man exists. in a perfect world with no bullies or whatever there would still be trials. ppl would still have a sex drive before they could act on it, you still have to control those passions. you still have to work for your food and till the ground by the sweat of your brow. this world was designed to test and try us. our natural state means it is inevitable. we don't have to make this life a trial for each other. there is no need for bullies and god does not want them here for "his will". a lack of bullies will not disrupt the plan of god, in fact it might just actually speed it along it's path. heaven forbid we help that plan move forth instead of justifying the behavior as "part of god's plan".

this is like when i hear ppl say what happened to the native american's it's ok cause the book of mormon says the laminites would be wiped off the land if they did not keep the commandments.... what? so it's ok? i don't think anyone gets away with hurting another. if i hurt someone god might be able to make good come from it for them but that won't get me off the hook, i still hurt someone and justice will not be robbed.

yes there is opposition in all things.... that does not mean bullying in all things.

Pretty sure I didn't say life is perfect except for other people. I am also pretty sure that opposition in all things is allowed to happen by man because there are certain aspects of life that can only be applied by one another (peer pressure for one). As for what happened to the Native American's, well, that is a whole different debate, with lots of different sides (obviously I think we would have some disagreements there as well). As for me "justifying" bullying as "part of God's plan"; I am not saying that it is an ESSENTIAL part of the plan, but just how Eve sinned in partaking of the fruit, Heavenly Father had the foresight to turn it into a positive.

I guess the nuts and bolts of my argument is this;

Bad things, such as bullying and beating people up happens. There is no way to eliminate it unless we eliminate free will. Thus, Heavenly Father in his infinite wisdom promised us a few things, first that we will not be tested by more than we can bear. Second that if we turn to Him, we will have our burdens lifted (ie the pain of being bullied) and finally that everything we go through in life, be it natural (cancer, sex drive, whatever) or unnatural (acts of free will) it will give us experience and be for our good.

[carlimac]

Carli: The firesides certainly weren't about gay sex. Sheesh! They were about understanding and helping those who struggle with this particular struggle. I'm sorry that "standing with those who stand in need of comfort" makes you squirm if those people happen to be gay.

I didn't say either of those things. They are your assumptions. I'm not dumb enough to think there would be a fireside about gay sex. I just don't think a person talking about his or her struggles with SSA is good fireside material. But it's probably happened somewhere. Like I said, this bishop in my last ward revealed the problems he'd had with his son in a stake RS conference. But the emphasis was on supporting each other through the hardships we face -the rough time he and his wife went through with this.

What makes you think I squirm at fulfilling my baptismal covenants?

[GaySaint]

Actually, there have been a number of these firesides (one recently with GA Marlin K Jensen), a stake conference in California, a panel in Idaho, a BYU presentation on the biological causes of homosexuality, and multiple "bridge building" groups.

As to the squirming comment, did you not allude to the idea that a fireside on this subject would make you squirm when you said this?:

Hand me some literature to read but lets not make this such an open book that we're all squirming.

If not, what did you mean?

[carlimac]

Actually, there have been a number of these firesides (one recently with GA Marlin K Jensen), a stake conference in California, a panel in Idaho, a BYU presentation on the biological causes of homosexuality, and multiple "bridge building" groups.

As to the squirming comment, did you not allude to the idea that a fireside on this subject would make you squirm when you said this?:

If not, what did you mean?

OK, there have been firesides. Sorry for not being aware of them. It's the topic of homosexuality as a fireside focus that makes me squirm, not the idea of helping my fellowman or woman.

I had heard about Marlin Jensen's meetings with gay and straight members in Oakland. But he went there specifically to deal with those directly involved who were hurt or offended by Prop 8.

As reported by one who was in attendance, "Elder Jensen also reiterated his own sincere belief, obviously, in the Church doctrine, and that the way to true happiness is through the gospel. He also made it quite clear that the Church’s position has not changed."

The idea is to love those we differ with- not necessarily to accept homosexuality as right and normal.

[GaySaint]

Carli: I would agree with you that a fireside set up to encourage members to believe homosexual BEHAVIOR is "right" would be... odd...

But that is not what they are for. The topic is usually something along the line of "Loving, helping, and understanding those who struggle with same gender attraction."

It should be noted that homosexual attraction IS normal, and as such, homosexual behavior IS normal for those with homosexual attractions (and homosexual attractions are NOT sinful).

Being gay is very NORMAL to me (and normal is so subjective that I really hate that word).

I would love to get you to the point where you believed homosexuality to be normal, but would never expect you to change your feelings about whether or not it is right.

I think it is very possible to have a view that homosexuality is normal while still believing it is wrong. In fact, those who tend to feel this way in the church also tend to have the best understanding of homosexuality. I know you've struggled a bit about what you don't understand (and hate it when we tell you you don't understand something). I think this is it. I'm pointing it out because you asked me to on another forum a while ago.